03/02/2007 03:30 PM Senate RESOURCES
| Audio | Topic |
|---|---|
| Start | |
| Confirmation Hearings || Board of Game | |
| Big Game Commercial Services Board – Confirmation Hearing | |
| HB25 | |
| Adjourn |
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
| + | HB 25 | TELECONFERENCED | |
| + | TELECONFERENCED | ||
ALASKA STATE LEGISLATURE
SENATE RESOURCES STANDING COMMITTEE
March 2, 2007
3:34 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Senator Charlie Huggins, Chair
Senator Bert Stedman, Vice Chair
Senator Gary Stevens
Senator Lesil McGuire - via teleconference
Senator Bill Wielechowski
Senator Thomas Wagoner
MEMBERS ABSENT
Senator Lyda Green
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
Confirmation Hearings:
Department of Environmental Conservation (DEC)
Commissioner Tom Hartig
CONFIRMATION ADVANCED
Board of Game
Ben Grussendorf
Bob Bell
CONFIRMATIONS ADVANCED
Department of Natural Resources (DNR)
Commissioner Tom Irwin
CONFIRMATION ADVANCED
Big Game Commercial Services Board
Richard Rohrer
Leif Wilson
CONFIRMATIONS POSTPONED
Alaska Oil and Gas Conservation Commission (AOGCC)
Commissioner Cathy Foerster
CONFIRMATION ADVANCED
HOUSE BILL NO. 25
"An Act relating to landowners' immunity for allowing use of
land without charge for a recreational activity; relating to
landowners' liability where landowner conduct involves gross
negligence or reckless or intentional misconduct; relating to
claims of adverse possession and prescriptive easements, or
similar claims; and providing for an effective date."
HEARD AND HELD
PREVIOUS COMMITTEE ACTION
BILL: HB 25
SHORT TITLE: RECREATIONAL LAND USE LIABILITY/ADV. POSS
SPONSOR(s): REPRESENTATIVE(s) SEATON, WILSON
01/16/07 (H) PREFILE RELEASED 1/5/07
01/16/07 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS
01/16/07 (H) RES, JUD
01/24/07 (H) RES AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 124
01/24/07 (H) Moved Out of Committee
01/24/07 (H) MINUTE(RES)
01/25/07 (H) RES RPT 8DP
01/25/07 (H) DP: GUTTENBERG, EDGMON, SEATON,
KAWASAKI, WILSON, ROSES, JOHNSON, GATTO
01/31/07 (H) JUD AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 120
01/31/07 (H) Heard & Held
01/31/07 (H) MINUTE(JUD)
02/01/07 (H) JUD AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 120
02/01/07 (H) Heard & Held
02/01/07 (H) MINUTE(JUD)
02/05/07 (H) JUD AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 120
02/05/07 (H) Moved Out of Committee
02/05/07 (H) MINUTE(JUD)
02/07/07 (H) JUD RPT 1DP 3NR
02/07/07 (H) DP: LYNN
02/07/07 (H) NR: GRUENBERG, HOLMES, SAMUELS
02/12/07 (H) TRANSMITTED TO (S)
02/12/07 (H) VERSION: HB 25
02/14/07 (S) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS
02/14/07 (S) RES, JUD
03/02/07 (S) RES AT 3:30 PM BUTROVICH 205
WITNESS REGISTER
TOM HARTIG, Commissioner-designee
Department of Environmental Conservation (DEC)
Anchorage AK
POSITION STATEMENT: Commissioner-designee, DEC.
BOB BELL
Anchorage AK
POSITION STATEMENT: Appointee to the Board of Game.
BEN GRUSSENDORF
Sitka AK
POSITION STATEMENT: Appointee to the Board of Game.
TOM IRWIN, Commissioner-designee
Department of Natural Resources (DNR)
Juneau AK
POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on issues related to being
commissioner of DNR.
RICHARD ROHRER
BearCamp, Inc.
Kodiak AK
POSITION STATEMENT: Reappointee to the Big Game Commercial
Services Board.
CATHY FOERSTER, Engineering Commissioner
Alaska Oil and Gas Conservation Commission (AOGCC)
Anchorage AK
POSITION STATEMENT: Reappointee to the AOGCC.
REPRESENTATIVE PAUL SEATON
Alaska State Capitol
Juneau, AK 99801-1182
POSITION STATEMENT: Sponsor of HB 25.
DAVE BRANN, member
Kachemak Nordic Ski Club
Homer AK
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported HB 25.
MILLI MARTIN, Member
Kenai Peninsula Borough Assembly
Homer AK
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported HB 25.
DAVID STUTZER
Representing himself
Homer AK
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported HB 25.
MICHAEL SCHNEIDER, Attorney
Representing himself
Anchorage AK
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported the concept of HB 25, but it
needed changes.
ACTION NARRATIVE
CHAIR HUGGINS called the Senate Resources Standing Committee
meeting to order at 3:34:07 PM. Present at the call to order
were Senators Stevens, Wagoner, Wielechowski, Stedman, and
Huggins. Senator McGuire was on teleconference. Chair Huggins
announced that they would not take up the confirmation for Denby
Lloyd as commissioner of the Department of Fish and Game today.
^Confirmation Hearings
^Board of Game
TOM HARTIG, Commissioner-designee, Department of Environmental
Conservation (DEC), gave a brief overview of his background. He
has been in Alaska since 1967 and has had many positions in the
state. He is a lawyer and has good experience to bring to this
position.
3:40:51 PM
MR. HARTIG related how he would like working in the pipeline era
that he thought would present interesting environmental issues.
3:41:19 PM
CHAIR HUGGINS asked if he has difficulties transitioning to this
new position with his past private affiliations.
MR. HARTIG replied that he couldn't have taken the job if he
felt he had a conflict. He is sensitive to even the appearance
of something inappropriate.
3:42:55 PM
CHAIR HUGGINS let him know that there is heightened interest in
retiree rehire. He thanked him for his willingness to do this
sort of thing and recognized his good reputation as well.
SENATOR STEDMAN moved to forward Mr. Hartig's name to the full
body. Chair Huggins stated this did not reflect an intent by any
of the members to vote for or against confirmation on the floor.
CHAIR HUGGINS said the committee would next take up the
reappointment of Bob Bell to the Board of Game.
3:43:55 PM
BOB BELL said he was just appointed to the Board of Game in
November to finish out Mike Fleagle's term. He brings the
perspective of someone who has participated in Alaska wildlife
as a hunter for almost 40 years. He also worked throughout the
state as an engineer and surveyor and is keenly aware of the
rural issues that come up around fish and game. He is aware of
rural issues that come up in regard to fish and game.
CHAIR HUGGINS noted that Mr. Bell is one of the guys who used to
hunt in Unit 16 B before it was closed for lack of moose. He
hoped he could some moose back at 16 B.
MR. BELL promised to do everything he could to accomplish that.
3:46:37 PM
SENATOR WAGONER said people are questioning the process in which
Denby Lloyd was appointed as commissioner of ADF&G. Also, there
is more consternation about the two people he picked as a deputy
commissioner and his director of the Division of Game. He asked
if he could comment on that.
MR. BELL replied that it's difficult for him to comment because
he's relatively new at this position, but he personally thought
Mr. Lloyd would do a good job.
SENATOR WAGONER asked why the Boards of Fisheries and Game
elected to send only one name for the commissioner's position
for the governor to consider.
MR. BELL replied that he voted to send three names forward, but
he was in the minority.
SENATOR STEDMAN asked what kind of policy the state should have
in allocating big game resources.
MR. BELL replied the state needs to look at the subsistence
issue first, then Alaska residents, and others after that.
3:50:03 PM
SENATOR STEDMAN said he was referring more to the allocation of
permitted bear hunts.
MR. BELL asked if he meant Kodiak bears or general bear season.
SENATOR STEDMAN said it could be black bear or brown bear, but
he added that there is ever-increasing pressure on big game
animals and increasing restriction on bear tags issued.
MR. BELL replied that the Constitution says they are supposed to
manage for sustained yield and they rely on the department's
biologists to indicate the number of bears that would be
appropriate to take out of a particular population. A certain
number of bears have to be available to maintain the guiding
industry, but he feels if there isn't enough, Alaskans should
get first choice on any game animal. That would include bears.
SENATOR STEDMAN asked the question more directly. Should the big
game industry go the way of a limited entry or IFQ model for
fisheries - where you have a de facto ownership of so many bear
harvests as a guide.
MR. BELL replied no. The state's game resources are supposed to
be available to everyone equally.
CHAIR HUGGINS indicated there were no further questions and he
asked Ben Grussendorf to comment next.
3:52:43 PM
BEN GRUSSENDORF, reappointee to the Board of Game, briefed the
committee on his background and said he has already served on
the Board of Game for six years. His interests have always been
wildlife hunting and viewing. He spent 20 years in the Alaska
Legislature. Several governors have felt that he has something
to contribute and he said:
It's great to be with a bunch of people that talk
about something you're interested in and that's
wildlife and you hear some real interesting stories.
I've never seen a 15 ft. bear, but I've heard some
people talking to me around here that have seen one.
SENATOR WAGONER set forth his previous question on how the
commissioner of ADF&G got appointed.
MR. GRUSSENDORF replied that when the Joint Boards looked at the
candidates, Mr. Lloyd was head and shoulders above all the
others in terms of management skills. He has a diverse
background; most of them felt he would pick people who were
knowledgeable in areas he wasn't that knowledgeable in. And he
has done that.
SENATOR WAGONER asked if statute didn't require them to send a
list of names, not just a single individual's.
MR. GRUSSENDORF replied not necessarily. Often a governor has
taken the name or two that have been submitted and simply said,
"Add more names." Most on the boards felt that Governor Palin
was supportive of Mr. Lloyd and, in an odd way they took some
pressure off of her from being the arbitrator.
SENATOR STEDMAN asked in a state with its resources held in
common and the Forest Service owning most of the land mass in
Southeast and restricting access which appears to be in essence
privatizing the harvesting of big game animals, what his
thoughts were - on brown bears in particular.
MR. GRUSSENDORF replied that years ago people had great concern,
because anybody that had a big game license could hunt anywhere
in the state. That created a problem with locals in some areas
who were trying to make a living where a lot of bears would be
harvested. Now most guides have certain areas they are allowed
to bring their clients to and there has been a separation of
areas for certain guides. He said a lot of permitting questions
have arisen on federal land and the federal government has
played a very heavy role in Southeast brown bear management, in
particular Game Unit 4, which Senator Stedman represents.
Bert, I don't know how else to answer that question,
but we're very concerned because of the harvest of
close to 45 percent happen to be female bears. In one
area it was over 50 percent. So, there is a lot of
concern. We have a brown bear management proposal
that....and we're trying to follow it as best we can.
SENATOR STEDMAN said he is concerned not so much with the
management of the harvest itself, but how the feds have
allocated it to some hunters and not others, particularly bears.
I'd hate to see us go down the road like we have done
with IFQs where we end up with a lot of the ownership
of the resource out of state. And with the Forest
Service restricting access into the Tongass, it
appears to me to be a virtual defacto privatization of
big game hunting in the Tongass.
MR. GRUSSENDORF agreed and explained that the Board tries to
determine the harvestable surplus of brown bears. The state
keeps track of the number of bears taken. He didn't know how to
get over the hurdle of the US Forest Service and federal
agencies. He said that the Forest Service was very active when
the state was developing the brown bear management scheme for
Southeast and it holds a certain trump card.
SENATOR STEDMAN said one of the issues the state appears to be
facing with the inquiry of the FBI is the impact of
privatization of resources and who ends up creating the wealth
and who ends up with the wealth. He is a little gun shy when it
appears that the guide industry seems to have had a fairly
effective hand in allocating who got how many bears and where.
There are too many correlations between that issue and what the
state faces with its fisheries, just on a smaller scale.
MR. GRUSSENDORF agreed, but said a lot of the bears taken are by
residents. Senator Stedman was talking about the guided hunts
that are usually non-resident. He suggested that they talk to
Scott McCloud, Brad Dennis and Paul Johnson who are all guides
and have concerns about the locals, too.
4:03:39 PM
SENATOR WAGONER reiterated that statute says:
'The governor shall appoint the commissioner of Fish
and Game from a list of qualified persons nominated by
the Board of Fisheries and the Board of Game meeting
in joint session subject to the right of the governor
to request additional nominations.'
Now that doesn't mean you give him one and then if she
doesn't like that you give 'em additional. It's says
'a list' and if she doesn't like any name on that
list, then she can ask for more. But the statute is
pretty clear that the Board of Fish and Game should
send a list of applications to the governor, not a
single individual name.
CHAIR HUGGINS asked if Mr. Grussendorf voted to send forward one
name.
MR. GRUSSENDORF replied:
Yes, Mr. Chairman. We put one person on the list. If
the Governor was not satisfied with that, she could
have very easily told us to put another name on there
and I am aware of governors that actually told the
boards whose name should be on that list. And our
indication was that Denby Lloyd would be on that list.
CHAIR HUGGINS asked how he knew the Governor was supportive of
Mr. Lloyd.
MR. GRUSSENDORF replied that she must have supported him because
she appointed him the acting commissioner when she first came
in.
CHAIR HUGGINS asked if he would send more than one name forward
if he had it to do over again.
MR. GRUSSENDORF replied he guessed so. Then that puts the
pressure on the governor who then gets to be the bad person. He
said there was no doubt in the board's mind who was the best
qualified. The question was should they put all the other names
in there, too. They were qualified, but not to Mr. Lloyd's
caliber. The former commissioner, Mr. Campbell, was thinking
about submitting his name and as soon as he found out that Mr.
Lloyd was interested in it, he withdrew it because he felt he
could lead the ADF&G in the right direction.
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI asked if he remembered what the vote was.
MR. GRUSSENDORF replied no. They voted on each individual
person, but 4 votes are needed from each board [a total of 8
votes] and the only person who got the four - actually all of -
the votes was Denby Lloyd. Several didn't receive any votes at
all from the Board of Fisheries.
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI asked if anyone in the Palin administration
told him that they weren't in compliance with the statute and
they needed to submit additional names.
MR. GRUSSENDORF replied no, not a word.
4:09:26 PM
SENATOR STEDMAN moved to forward the names of Bob Bell and Ben
Grussendorf to the Joint Session. There were no objections and
it was so ordered.
CHAIR HUGGINS asked Tom Irwin to come forward.
TOM IRWIN, Commissioner-designee, Department of Natural
Resources (DNR), said he is a Christian and those are his basic
principles. He described his family saying it was very important
to him. He graduated from the Colorado School of Mines and his
education was in mineral engineering and chemistry. He said he
has been in the resource-development industry in multiple
responsibilities from operations to management, design and
purchase. His philosophy is that his children and grandchildren
need Alaska.
4:13:03 PM
SENATOR STEVENS said he has great respect for him and all he's
done. He mentioned the conflict at Lake Iliamna between a
fishery resource that has been there for a number of years and
mineral resource that is potentially being developed. He asked
what principals drive him in issues like that - of competing
resources.
MR. IRWIN replied this is a two-fold issue that is a critical to
Alaska. "One is we will never jeopardize Lake Iliamna or Bristol
Bay and that fishery. It's a renewable resource and we have to
protect it. Period." Second, Alaska is a fair state of laws and
regulations based on a constitution.
We talk about resource development. We have a very
clear process to evaluate these projects. If we become
a state that randomly chooses by individuals or
boroughs or groups of people who say this is good or
this is bad without going through a process, then we
jeopardize our whole system. Now, we're not talking
about a mine, Pebble, we're talking about the next
mines, we're talking about oil and gas, because if you
satisfy one group, the outside pressures from the
Lower 48 get very involved. We must have a process. If
there is a flaw in the process, and that works both
ways, if we're duplicating efforts and we're wasting
state's money or company's money, we shouldn't be
doing it. If we have a shortfall for evaluation, we
need to fix it.
Now I want to make it very clear. I've been through
these processes and if somebody is going to present
something on Bristol Bay or Pebble, specifically, to
DNR, they better be well-prepared and I haven't seen
anything yet. We're jousting with something fictitious
at this point. Before we want to talk reclamation
plans, I want to see as much effort put into starting
up as shutting down. I'm adamant about seeing water
quality - subsurface, surface - I want background on
hydrology. It's critical. I want financial assurances.
I want to know what financial assurances there are
during start up, midstream interruptions when you're
operating - closure. You have to have these things.
Dam stability - I know a lot about dam stability. I
want to know ground accelerations and is it tight in
the bedrock, can it be supported. Now, I don't have
the expertise of dam safety engineers, but it needs to
be clear before we even start the process, you have to
have all of this. We can't as a state - and I feel
strongly about this - we can't as a state go to random
processes.
4:17:02 PM
COMMISSIONER IRWIN said if the state chooses randomly it will
drive resource development away, because the risks will be too
high and everyone knows how outside influences can make the
decisions that the state should be making.
CHAIR HUGGINS asked a question about ethics and conflict of
interest. He said multiple articles have been written over the
last month about some people who worked for Murkowski last year
who are now lobbyists. His deputy commissioner from DNR was also
in some of those articles who said she worked as a lobbyist for
one of the potential competitors under AGIA in a former life.
He asked what he thought about that issue.
MR. IRWIN replied that first of all, the article didn't present
the correct dates. And when he became commissioner, a deputy
commissioner helped convince him he should serve. She had
already committed to leaving to be a partner in a firm, which
the firm reported correctly. He asked her to give him a few
weeks to help him out, which she did. She clearly did not start
her new job until the end of February. "She is incredibly
honorable. So she stuck with me and they tied this whole
reporting together as February." He reminded them that they were
doing no negotiating or lobbying at that time. The process
hadn't even started yet. "So for her situation, her loyalty to
the state, her honesty, and frankly her support of me when I was
fired, her leaving, her integrity is impeccable and she does
this state a great service."
Second, he said ethics are important; but the legislature has a
real problem because it is tough to legislative ethics. Ethics
come from inside a person.
So, do we need ethics? Absolutely....I think we also
need to question the issue - and it's tough in Alaska.
If I may speak for you all, you don't have full time
jobs here. We have people that once they leave
government service also, they still want to live here
and work here. And we need to be careful. You have
some tough decisions. How can they go back into
industry? You certainly don't want people who work in
the legislative area or in governmental service then
having to leave the state because they can't find
work. So, I'm not answering your question; I'm
probably muddying it more. But those are tough issues.
You've got to allow people to be able to stay here.
He related how he signed over everything with the Fort Knox
project - after being its vice president and general manager -
to a deputy commissioner of DNR, when he became commissioner. He
didn't even attend meetings - even though he wanted to know what
was going on there - because he thought there would be a
conflict of interest. Maybe he overdid it, but he felt good
about himself.
When he left state government, he wanted to stay in the state.
He was offered a good position in Golden Valley Electric
Association that he didn't take because there are clear lines if
you are a commissioner or higher up and he didn't even want to
come close.
4:23:33 PM
CHAIR HUGGINS said he didn't mean to intimate anything about
anyone's integrity or honesty. That is not the question in his
mind; it's the appearance. And because the state is negotiating,
it could legally come back and bite them.
MR. IRWIN said he didn't think so and the issue ever got to
court, he would request the deputy commissioner's negotiation
notes with TransCanada about which he said, "I think you'll find
she beat the tar out of them. I wish we'd have done the same in
other negotiations.... She has negotiated incredibly well." He
was very gratified that she decided to stay on.
SENATOR WAGONER moved to forward Mr. Irwin's name to the full
body. There were no objections and it was so ordered.
4:25:41 PM
^Big Game Commercial Services Board - Confirmation Hearing
CHAIR HUGGINS invited Richard Rohrer to testify.
RICHARD ROHRER, BearCamp, Inc., reappointee to the Big Game
Commercial Services Board, said he first came to Alaska in 1965
and has been involved in the guide industry ever since. He
described his various licenses and offered to answer questions.
SENATOR WAGONER asked how the reconstitution of the board had
been working.
MR. ROHRER replied that the board has worked very well together
and he hoped to see it through the sunset date.
SENATOR STEVENS said he didn't know that Mr. Rohrer had worked
on developing the Kodiak Archipelago conservation management
plan..
MR. ROHRER responded that the brown bear plan is used
extensively and is very well respected all over the world. He
continues to be on the CUBS committee that helps both the
federal government and state biologists implement all its parts.
SENATOR STEVENS asked if he is happy with how the plan has
worked out. [Mr. Rohrer's phone connection stopped at this
point.]
4:30:40 PM
CHAIR HUGGINS announced that Leif Wilson was not present, but he
wanted to continue processing both of the names. He hadn't heard
of any issues with Mr. Wilson.
MR. ROHRER [reconnected] agreed that the plan was very
successful.
4:31:57 PM
CHAIR HUGGINS asked if he could describe what oversight he had
over guide conduct and activities.
MR. ROHRER replied that part of the legislative mandate for the
board was to establish ethics - which it did at its first
meeting. They were placed into regulation quickly. He said that
the board is responsible for licensing people who meet the
criteria in all categories and has disciplinary authority as
well.
CHAIR HUGGINS asked if he had dealt with the case where a pilot
broke the wings off two airplanes including the lower longerons
and flew away afterwards.
MR. ROHRER replied that the board had not dealt with that case.
CHAIR HUGGINS asked how long it normally takes to get to a case.
MR. ROHRER replied the board has been in existence for two years
and he is a little frustrated at how slowly cases get to it.
CHAIR HUGGINS said if that's the case, the board might not be
functioning correctly.
SENATOR WAGONER asked where he saw the slowdown.
MR. ROHRER replied that normally disciplinary actions come to
the board from the investigator with the DECCD. Just as the
board was established, the department had a change of personnel
and he wasn't sure its current investigator is permanent. Also,
the department has only one person dealing with guide-related
issues and he has other boards to deal with as well. The DECCD
is the licensing authority he works with and it's always been a
bit of a personnel issue.
4:34:49 PM
SENATOR STEVENS moved to forward the two names to the full body.
SENATOR WAGONER objected to delete Mr. Wilson's name. There was
no objection and only Mr. Rohrer's name was forwarded to the
full body.
4:36:23 PM
Alaska Oil and Gas Conservation Commissioner ^AOGCC
CATHY FOERSTER, Engineering Commissioner, AOGCC, thanked them
for considering her reappointment to this position. She has been
serving the state in the AOGCC since March 2005 when she was
appointed to complete the unexpired term of the engineering
commissioner. She has a few reasons why she wants to be
reappointed. First, she is grateful for the chance to give
something back to the state. This has been a wonderful place for
her family to grow up.
The second reason is purely business. The AOGCC is in the middle
of several extremely important and highly technical projects
right now and many of them are heavily dominated by engineering
issues. For example, it just completed a technical study that
will inevitably assist them in determining the appropriate
allowable gas off-takes from Prudhoe Bay when the state has the
North Slope gas sale. It is also in the early phases of a
similar study for the Pt. Thomson reservoir.
SENATOR WAGONER asked if Pt. Thomson is called a retro grade
field.
MS. FOERSTER replied that it is a gas condensate or retro grade
condensation field.
SENATOR WAGONER asked for her take on Exxon claiming that that
field is not economical to produce gas liquids without producing
the gas at the same time.
MS. FOERSTER replied that she didn't have enough information,
but her opinion is that the amount of condensate at risk is 300
million barrels - comparable to an Alpine field. That's why the
commission has engaged in a study to try to understand what
Exxon is saying so it can come to its own conclusion as to
whether it is feasible to get the reserves by cycling or if
going to gas blowdown is the only option.
SENATOR STEDMAN moved to forward Ms. Foerster's name to the full
body. There were no objections and it was so ordered.
At ease from 4:40:39 PM to 4:41:20 PM.
HB 25-RECREATIONAL LAND USE LIABILITY/ADV. POSS
4:41:20 PM
CHAIR HUGGINS announced HB 25 to be up for consideration.
REPRESENTATIVE PAUL SEATON, sponsor of HB 25, read the sponsor
statement. He said it encourages expansion of recreational
opportunities for Alaskans by protecting private landowners that
allow free recreational use of their lands by raising the
liability standard to "intentional, reckless or gross negligent
misconduct".
He related that currently land owners rely on the unimproved
land statute, but it is problematic because the definition of
what is improved and unimproved is not clear in the
determinations that have come out of the courts. So, landowners
are unable to really assess their liability when they allow
recreational use of their land.
This bill also protects landowners from adverse possession or
prescriptive easement based on them giving free recreational use
to recreational users.
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON said that many people have testified
favorably about this issue.
4:45:30 PM
SENATOR STEVENS said other states have done similar things and
asked how this bill compares to those.
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON pointed out nine pages of documents about
other states. Many have used the same tack.
4:46:19 PM
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI asked if recently passed legislation on
adverse possession and prescriptive easements didn't apply to
these lands.
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON replied that a bill was passed limiting
the state from taking land through eminent domain. He didn't
think they had changed the adverse possession statutes recently.
Prescriptive easement is more the case where someone claims the
use of the land and can claim its use for the future. He pointed
out that this bill applies only if the recreational use is for
free. This does not apply if the use is for commercial purposes.
SENATOR WAGONER commented that the legislature passed an adverse
possession bill, called the "squatters' bill," three or four
years ago. He thought that took care of all these concerns.
CHAIR HUGGINS asked the status of airplanes taking off and
landing in his back yard.
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON replied that taking off and landing is not
trespassing. If it is done for recreational purposes, that is
defined in the statute, but does not include language about air
fields. It expressly does not include boxing contests, sparring
and wrestling matches or exhibitions, activities involving
devices that are subject to the requirements of AS 05.20. He
said he would have to check out which statute applied to air
fields.
CHAIR HUGGINS asked him to check that out because he has been
asked that question multiple times. He asked if his backyard has
a groomed area that someone would call a strip, is that covered
in his bill under "improved".
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON replied that under this bill it doesn't
matter if it is improved or not, but it does matter if its
recreational use is free or not.
CHAIR HUGGINS asked what if the land is owned collectively.
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON replied that the land would have to be
privately owned, not publicly owned as with a municipality - and
you can't charge for its use.
4:51:41 PM
SENATOR STEVENS said they are trying to protect land owners and
this doesn't protect them from any event. He asked what
responsibility landowners have for maintenance.
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON replied if someone has an attractive
nuisance that he knows is dangerous, and a minor comes in and
gets hurt, he can be liable. This bill adopts the same standard
the state has for unimproved land and it is case-specific.
4:54:26 PM
DAVE BRANN, Kachemak Nordic Ski Club member, said he had been
involved in trail development and maintenance in Alaska for over
30 years and things are more difficult in the last 10 years due
to smaller parcels of private property for recreational trails
to go over. People want and need trails close to urban areas and
liability concerns are problematic. "HB 25 does a great deal to
solve those problems and make recreational use much more
available and attractive to the local community members."
4:56:16 PM
MILLI MARTIN, Homer, said she is also a member of the Kenai
Peninsula Borough Assembly, and that it passed a resolution
supporting HB 25. She noted that 45 other states have similar
statutes.
4:57:46 PM
CHAIR HUGGINS thanked her for serving on the assembly.
DAVID STUTZER, Homer resident, said he has been working with his
neighbors to provide easements to the ski club for the trail
that crosses their land. He said this is a very good bill and
would ease his neighbor's concerns about adverse possession and
liability as discussed by Representative Seaton. He said with
the growth of the state and development of areas around towns
and cities, it becomes necessary to have trails across private
land. This bill would allow people to give permission to use
those lands without fear of liability except for gross
negligence.
4:59:22 PM
MICHAEL SCHNEIDER, Anchorage resident, said the issues in HB 25
have merit, but he has problems with the way it is written.
Subsection (a) where it says a landowner need only to allow
recreational activity - that language is too lose. Under
(e)(1)(C) "charge" is defined as "a contribution in kind,
service, or cash from a user if all of the contribution is used
to improve access...." He said under that language someone could
charge him $1,000 to hunt bear on their property and he could
fall into a pit or some hazard that they knew about and
unreasonably failed to warn him of. They could after the fact
take his $1,000 and put it towards remediation of the problem
and comply with the technical words of this statute. He did not
want to give that sort of broad immunity to inappropriate
circumstances.
CHAIR HUGGINS asked him to get together with the sponsor. He
agreed and apologized for not getting together with him before.
He asked if he was representing himself.
MR. SCHNEIDER replied that he has been a practicing attorney in
Anchorage for 32 years mainly tort claims. He has been
interested in acquiring free recreational access to property
since he was 12 years old and he is speaking for himself.
5:02:36 PM
CHAIR HUGGINS announced that he would hold the bill.
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON added that abandoned aircraft landing
areas are included in current immunity language if they are away
from an improved structure. If they are near an improved
structure, it may not qualify for the same immunity. So this
bill clarifies that.
CHAIR HUGGINS announced he would hold HB 25.
There being no further business to come before the committee,
Chair Huggins adjourned the meeting at 5:04:28 PM.
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