ALASKA STATE LEGISLATURE                                                                                  
              SENATE RESOURCES STANDING COMMITTEE                                                                             
                         March 2, 2007                                                                                          
                           3:34 p.m.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MEMBERS PRESENT                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Senator Charlie Huggins, Chair                                                                                                  
Senator Bert Stedman, Vice Chair                                                                                                
Senator Gary Stevens                                                                                                            
Senator Lesil McGuire - via teleconference                                                                                      
Senator Bill Wielechowski                                                                                                       
Senator Thomas Wagoner                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MEMBERS ABSENT                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
Senator Lyda Green                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
COMMITTEE CALENDAR                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
Confirmation Hearings:                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
Department of Environmental Conservation (DEC)                                                                                
Commissioner Tom Hartig                                                                                                         
     CONFIRMATION ADVANCED                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Board of Game                                                                                                                 
Ben Grussendorf                                                                                                                 
Bob Bell                                                                                                                        
     CONFIRMATIONS ADVANCED                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Department of Natural Resources (DNR)                                                                                         
Commissioner Tom Irwin                                                                                                          
     CONFIRMATION ADVANCED                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Big Game Commercial Services Board                                                                                            
Richard Rohrer                                                                                                                  
Leif Wilson                                                                                                                     
     CONFIRMATIONS POSTPONED                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Alaska Oil and Gas Conservation Commission (AOGCC)                                                                            
Commissioner Cathy Foerster                                                                                                     
     CONFIRMATION ADVANCED                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
HOUSE BILL NO. 25                                                                                                               
"An Act relating to landowners' immunity for allowing use of                                                                    
land without charge for a recreational activity; relating to                                                                    
landowners'  liability  where  landowner conduct  involves  gross                                                               
negligence  or reckless  or intentional  misconduct; relating  to                                                               
claims  of  adverse  possession and  prescriptive  easements,  or                                                               
similar claims; and providing for an effective date."                                                                           
     HEARD AND HELD                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
PREVIOUS COMMITTEE ACTION                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
BILL: HB  25                                                                                                                  
SHORT TITLE: RECREATIONAL LAND USE LIABILITY/ADV. POSS                                                                          
SPONSOR(s): REPRESENTATIVE(s) SEATON, WILSON                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
01/16/07       (H)       PREFILE RELEASED 1/5/07                                                                                
01/16/07       (H)       READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS                                                                        
01/16/07       (H)       RES, JUD                                                                                               
01/24/07       (H)       RES AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 124                                                                             
01/24/07       (H)       Moved Out of Committee                                                                                 
01/24/07       (H)       MINUTE(RES)                                                                                            
01/25/07       (H)       RES RPT 8DP                                                                                            
01/25/07       (H)       DP:    GUTTENBERG,    EDGMON,    SEATON,                                                               
                         KAWASAKI, WILSON, ROSES, JOHNSON, GATTO                                                                
01/31/07       (H)       JUD AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 120                                                                             
01/31/07       (H)       Heard & Held                                                                                           
01/31/07       (H)       MINUTE(JUD)                                                                                            
02/01/07       (H)       JUD AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 120                                                                             
02/01/07       (H)       Heard & Held                                                                                           
02/01/07       (H)       MINUTE(JUD)                                                                                            
02/05/07       (H)       JUD AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 120                                                                             
02/05/07       (H)       Moved Out of Committee                                                                                 
02/05/07       (H)       MINUTE(JUD)                                                                                            
02/07/07       (H)       JUD RPT 1DP 3NR                                                                                        
02/07/07       (H)       DP: LYNN                                                                                               
02/07/07       (H)       NR: GRUENBERG, HOLMES, SAMUELS                                                                         
02/12/07       (H)       TRANSMITTED TO (S)                                                                                     
02/12/07       (H)       VERSION: HB 25                                                                                         
02/14/07       (S)       READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS                                                                        
02/14/07       (S)       RES, JUD                                                                                               
03/02/07       (S)       RES AT 3:30 PM BUTROVICH 205                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
WITNESS REGISTER                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
TOM HARTIG, Commissioner-designee                                                                                               
Department of Environmental Conservation (DEC)                                                                                  
Anchorage AK                                                                                                                    
POSITION STATEMENT: Commissioner-designee, DEC.                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
BOB BELL                                                                                                                        
Anchorage AK                                                                                                                    
POSITION STATEMENT: Appointee to the Board of Game.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
BEN GRUSSENDORF                                                                                                                 
Sitka AK                                                                                                                        
POSITION STATEMENT: Appointee to the Board of Game.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
TOM IRWIN, Commissioner-designee                                                                                                
Department of Natural Resources (DNR)                                                                                           
Juneau AK                                                                                                                       
POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on issues related to being                                                                      
commissioner of DNR.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
RICHARD ROHRER                                                                                                                  
BearCamp, Inc.                                                                                                                  
Kodiak AK                                                                                                                       
POSITION STATEMENT: Reappointee to the Big Game Commercial                                                                    
Services Board.                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
CATHY FOERSTER, Engineering Commissioner                                                                                        
Alaska Oil and Gas Conservation Commission (AOGCC)                                                                              
Anchorage AK                                                                                                                    
POSITION STATEMENT: Reappointee to the AOGCC.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE PAUL SEATON                                                                                                      
Alaska State Capitol                                                                                                            
Juneau, AK  99801-1182                                                                                                          
POSITION STATEMENT: Sponsor of HB 25.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
DAVE BRANN, member                                                                                                              
Kachemak Nordic Ski Club                                                                                                        
Homer AK                                                                                                                        
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported HB 25.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MILLI MARTIN, Member                                                                                                            
Kenai Peninsula Borough Assembly                                                                                                
Homer AK                                                                                                                        
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported HB 25.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
DAVID STUTZER                                                                                                                   
Representing himself                                                                                                            
Homer AK                                                                                                                        
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported HB 25.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MICHAEL SCHNEIDER, Attorney                                                                                                     
Representing himself                                                                                                            
Anchorage AK                                                                                                                    
POSITION  STATEMENT:  Supported the  concept  of  HB 25,  but  it                                                             
needed changes.                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
ACTION NARRATIVE                                                                                                              
CHAIR  HUGGINS called  the  Senate  Resources Standing  Committee                                                               
meeting to  order at  3:34:07 PM.  Present at  the call  to order                                                             
were  Senators  Stevens,   Wagoner,  Wielechowski,  Stedman,  and                                                               
Huggins.  Senator McGuire  was on  teleconference. Chair  Huggins                                                               
announced that they would not  take up the confirmation for Denby                                                               
Lloyd as commissioner of the Department of Fish and Game today.                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
^Confirmation Hearings                                                                                                        
^Board of Game                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
TOM  HARTIG, Commissioner-designee,  Department of  Environmental                                                               
Conservation (DEC), gave  a brief overview of  his background. He                                                               
has been in  Alaska since 1967 and has had  many positions in the                                                               
state. He  is a lawyer and  has good experience to  bring to this                                                               
position.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
3:40:51 PM                                                                                                                    
MR. HARTIG related how he would  like working in the pipeline era                                                               
that he thought would present interesting environmental issues.                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
3:41:19 PM                                                                                                                    
CHAIR HUGGINS asked if he  has difficulties transitioning to this                                                               
new position with his past private affiliations.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MR. HARTIG  replied that  he couldn't  have taken  the job  if he                                                               
felt he  had a conflict. He  is sensitive to even  the appearance                                                               
of something inappropriate.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
3:42:55 PM                                                                                                                    
CHAIR HUGGINS let  him know that there is  heightened interest in                                                               
retiree rehire.  He thanked  him for his  willingness to  do this                                                               
sort of thing and recognized his good reputation as well.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR STEDMAN  moved to forward  Mr. Hartig's name to  the full                                                               
body. Chair Huggins stated this did  not reflect an intent by any                                                               
of the members to vote for or against confirmation on the floor.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  HUGGINS  said  the  committee   would  next  take  up  the                                                               
reappointment of Bob Bell to the Board of Game.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
3:43:55 PM                                                                                                                    
BOB  BELL said  he was  just appointed  to the  Board of  Game in                                                               
November  to  finish  out  Mike Fleagle's  term.  He  brings  the                                                               
perspective of  someone who has  participated in  Alaska wildlife                                                               
as a  hunter for almost 40  years. He also worked  throughout the                                                               
state as  an engineer  and surveyor  and is  keenly aware  of the                                                               
rural issues  that come up around  fish and game. He  is aware of                                                               
rural issues that come up in regard to fish and game.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR HUGGINS noted that Mr. Bell is  one of the guys who used to                                                               
hunt in  Unit 16  B before it  was closed for  lack of  moose. He                                                               
hoped he could some moose back at 16 B.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MR. BELL promised to do everything he could to accomplish that.                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
3:46:37 PM                                                                                                                    
SENATOR WAGONER said people are  questioning the process in which                                                               
Denby Lloyd was  appointed as commissioner of  ADF&G. Also, there                                                               
is more consternation about the two  people he picked as a deputy                                                               
commissioner and his  director of the Division of  Game. He asked                                                               
if he could comment on that.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. BELL replied  that it's difficult for him  to comment because                                                               
he's relatively new  at this position, but  he personally thought                                                               
Mr. Lloyd would do a good job.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  WAGONER  asked why  the  Boards  of Fisheries  and  Game                                                               
elected to  send only  one name  for the  commissioner's position                                                               
for the governor to consider.                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MR. BELL replied  that he voted to send three  names forward, but                                                               
he was in the minority.                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR STEDMAN asked  what kind of policy the  state should have                                                               
in allocating big game resources.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
MR.  BELL replied  the state  needs  to look  at the  subsistence                                                               
issue first, then Alaska residents, and others after that.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
3:50:03 PM                                                                                                                    
SENATOR STEDMAN said  he was referring more to  the allocation of                                                               
permitted bear hunts.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MR. BELL asked if he meant Kodiak bears or general bear season.                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR STEDMAN  said it could be  black bear or brown  bear, but                                                               
he  added that  there  is ever-increasing  pressure  on big  game                                                               
animals and increasing restriction on bear tags issued.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MR. BELL replied that the  Constitution says they are supposed to                                                               
manage  for sustained  yield and  they rely  on the  department's                                                               
biologists  to  indicate  the  number  of  bears  that  would  be                                                               
appropriate to  take out  of a  particular population.  A certain                                                               
number  of bears  have to  be available  to maintain  the guiding                                                               
industry, but  he feels  if there  isn't enough,  Alaskans should                                                               
get first choice on any game animal. That would include bears.                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR STEDMAN asked the question  more directly. Should the big                                                               
game industry  go the  way of  a limited entry  or IFQ  model for                                                               
fisheries - where  you have a de facto ownership  of so many bear                                                               
harvests as a guide.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MR. BELL replied  no. The state's game resources  are supposed to                                                               
be available to everyone equally.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR HUGGINS  indicated there were  no further questions  and he                                                               
asked Ben Grussendorf to comment next.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
3:52:43 PM                                                                                                                    
BEN GRUSSENDORF,  reappointee to the  Board of Game,  briefed the                                                               
committee on  his background  and said he  has already  served on                                                               
the Board of  Game for six years. His interests  have always been                                                               
wildlife hunting  and viewing.  He spent 20  years in  the Alaska                                                               
Legislature. Several  governors have  felt that he  has something                                                               
to contribute and he said:                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
     It's  great to  be with  a  bunch of  people that  talk                                                                    
     about  something   you're  interested  in   and  that's                                                                    
     wildlife and  you hear  some real  interesting stories.                                                                    
     I've  never seen  a 15  ft. bear,  but I've  heard some                                                                    
     people talking to me around here that have seen one.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  WAGONER  set forth  his  previous  question on  how  the                                                               
commissioner of ADF&G got appointed.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MR. GRUSSENDORF replied that when  the Joint Boards looked at the                                                               
candidates,  Mr.  Lloyd was  head  and  shoulders above  all  the                                                               
others  in  terms   of  management  skills.  He   has  a  diverse                                                               
background;  most of  them felt  he  would pick  people who  were                                                               
knowledgeable in  areas he wasn't  that knowledgeable in.  And he                                                               
has done that.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR WAGONER  asked if statute  didn't require them to  send a                                                               
list of names, not just a single individual's.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MR.  GRUSSENDORF replied  not necessarily.  Often a  governor has                                                               
taken the name  or two that have been submitted  and simply said,                                                               
"Add more  names." Most  on the boards  felt that  Governor Palin                                                               
was supportive  of Mr. Lloyd  and, in an  odd way they  took some                                                               
pressure off of her from being the arbitrator.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  STEDMAN asked  in a  state  with its  resources held  in                                                               
common and  the Forest Service  owning most  of the land  mass in                                                               
Southeast and restricting  access which appears to  be in essence                                                               
privatizing  the  harvesting  of   big  game  animals,  what  his                                                               
thoughts were - on brown bears in particular.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MR. GRUSSENDORF replied that years  ago people had great concern,                                                               
because anybody that  had a big game license  could hunt anywhere                                                               
in the  state. That created a  problem with locals in  some areas                                                               
who were trying  to make a living  where a lot of  bears would be                                                               
harvested. Now  most guides have  certain areas they  are allowed                                                               
to bring  their clients  to and  there has  been a  separation of                                                               
areas for certain  guides. He said a lot  of permitting questions                                                               
have  arisen  on federal  land  and  the federal  government  has                                                               
played a very  heavy role in Southeast brown  bear management, in                                                               
particular Game Unit 4, which Senator Stedman represents.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
     Bert, I  don't know how  else to answer  that question,                                                                    
     but  we're very  concerned  because of  the harvest  of                                                                    
     close to 45  percent happen to be female  bears. In one                                                                    
     area it  was over  50 percent.  So, there  is a  lot of                                                                    
     concern.  We  have  a brown  bear  management  proposal                                                                    
     that....and we're trying to follow it as best we can.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  STEDMAN  said he  is  concerned  not  so much  with  the                                                               
management  of  the  harvest  itself,   but  how  the  feds  have                                                               
allocated it to some hunters and not others, particularly bears.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
     I'd hate to  see us go down the road  like we have done                                                                    
     with IFQs where  we end up with a lot  of the ownership                                                                    
     of  the resource  out  of state.  And  with the  Forest                                                                    
     Service  restricting   access  into  the   Tongass,  it                                                                    
     appears to me to be  a virtual defacto privatization of                                                                    
     big game hunting in the Tongass.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MR.  GRUSSENDORF agreed  and explained  that the  Board tries  to                                                               
determine  the  harvestable surplus  of  brown  bears. The  state                                                               
keeps track of  the number of bears taken. He  didn't know how to                                                               
get  over  the  hurdle  of  the US  Forest  Service  and  federal                                                               
agencies. He  said that the  Forest Service was very  active when                                                               
the state  was developing  the brown  bear management  scheme for                                                               
Southeast and it holds a certain trump card.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR STEDMAN  said one of the  issues the state appears  to be                                                               
facing  with   the  inquiry   of  the  FBI   is  the   impact  of                                                               
privatization of  resources and who  ends up creating  the wealth                                                               
and who ends up  with the wealth. He is a little  gun shy when it                                                               
appears  that the  guide  industry  seems to  have  had a  fairly                                                               
effective hand  in allocating who  got how many bears  and where.                                                               
There are too  many correlations between that issue  and what the                                                               
state faces with its fisheries, just on a smaller scale.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MR. GRUSSENDORF agreed, but said a  lot of the bears taken are by                                                               
residents.  Senator Stedman  was talking  about the  guided hunts                                                               
that are  usually non-resident.  He suggested  that they  talk to                                                               
Scott McCloud,  Brad Dennis and  Paul Johnson who are  all guides                                                               
and have concerns about the locals, too.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
4:03:39 PM                                                                                                                    
SENATOR WAGONER reiterated that statute says:                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
     'The governor  shall appoint  the commissioner  of Fish                                                                    
     and Game from a list  of qualified persons nominated by                                                                    
     the Board  of Fisheries and  the Board of  Game meeting                                                                    
     in joint session  subject to the right  of the governor                                                                    
     to request additional nominations.'                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
     Now that doesn't mean you give  him one and then if she                                                                    
     doesn't like  that you give  'em additional.  It's says                                                                    
     'a  list' and  if she  doesn't  like any  name on  that                                                                    
     list, then  she can  ask for more.  But the  statute is                                                                    
     pretty clear  that the  Board of  Fish and  Game should                                                                    
     send  a list  of applications  to the  governor, not  a                                                                    
     single individual name.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR HUGGINS asked if Mr.  Grussendorf voted to send forward one                                                               
name.                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MR. GRUSSENDORF replied:                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
     Yes, Mr.  Chairman. We put  one person on the  list. If                                                                    
     the  Governor was  not satisfied  with that,  she could                                                                    
     have very easily  told us to put another  name on there                                                                    
     and  I am  aware of  governors that  actually told  the                                                                    
     boards  whose name  should  be on  that  list. And  our                                                                    
     indication was that Denby Lloyd would be on that list.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR HUGGINS  asked how he  knew the Governor was  supportive of                                                               
Mr. Lloyd.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MR. GRUSSENDORF replied that she  must have supported him because                                                               
she appointed  him the  acting commissioner  when she  first came                                                               
in.                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR HUGGINS asked  if he would send more than  one name forward                                                               
if he had it to do over again.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MR.  GRUSSENDORF  replied  he  guessed so.  Then  that  puts  the                                                               
pressure on the  governor who then gets to be  the bad person. He                                                               
said there  was no  doubt in  the board's mind  who was  the best                                                               
qualified. The question  was should they put all  the other names                                                               
in  there, too.  They  were  qualified, but  not  to Mr.  Lloyd's                                                               
caliber.  The former  commissioner,  Mr.  Campbell, was  thinking                                                               
about submitting  his name and as  soon as he found  out that Mr.                                                               
Lloyd was  interested in it,  he withdrew  it because he  felt he                                                               
could lead the ADF&G in the right direction.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI asked if he remembered what the vote was.                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MR.  GRUSSENDORF  replied  no.  They  voted  on  each  individual                                                               
person, but  4 votes  are needed  from each board  [a total  of 8                                                               
votes] and the only  person who got the four -  actually all of -                                                               
the votes  was Denby Lloyd.  Several didn't receive any  votes at                                                               
all from the Board of Fisheries.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI asked if anyone  in the Palin administration                                                               
told him  that they  weren't in compliance  with the  statute and                                                               
they needed to submit additional names.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MR. GRUSSENDORF replied no, not a word.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
4:09:26 PM                                                                                                                    
SENATOR STEDMAN  moved to forward the  names of Bob Bell  and Ben                                                               
Grussendorf to  the Joint Session.  There were no  objections and                                                               
it was so ordered.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR HUGGINS asked Tom Irwin to come forward.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
TOM   IRWIN,   Commissioner-designee,   Department   of   Natural                                                               
Resources (DNR), said  he is a Christian and those  are his basic                                                               
principles. He described his family  saying it was very important                                                               
to him.  He graduated from the  Colorado School of Mines  and his                                                               
education was  in mineral engineering  and chemistry. He  said he                                                               
has  been  in  the   resource-development  industry  in  multiple                                                               
responsibilities  from  operations   to  management,  design  and                                                               
purchase. His  philosophy is that his  children and grandchildren                                                               
need Alaska.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
4:13:03 PM                                                                                                                    
SENATOR STEVENS  said he has great  respect for him and  all he's                                                               
done.  He  mentioned  the  conflict at  Lake  Iliamna  between  a                                                               
fishery resource  that has been there  for a number of  years and                                                               
mineral resource  that is potentially  being developed.  He asked                                                               
what  principals drive  him in  issues like  that -  of competing                                                               
resources.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MR. IRWIN replied this is a  two-fold issue that is a critical to                                                               
Alaska. "One is we will  never jeopardize Lake Iliamna or Bristol                                                               
Bay and  that fishery. It's a  renewable resource and we  have to                                                               
protect it. Period."  Second, Alaska is a fair state  of laws and                                                               
regulations based on a constitution.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
     We  talk about  resource  development. We  have a  very                                                                    
     clear process to evaluate these  projects. If we become                                                                    
     a  state  that  randomly   chooses  by  individuals  or                                                                    
     boroughs or  groups of people  who say this is  good or                                                                    
     this is  bad without going  through a process,  then we                                                                    
     jeopardize  our whole  system. Now,  we're not  talking                                                                    
     about  a mine,  Pebble,  we're talking  about the  next                                                                    
     mines, we're talking about oil  and gas, because if you                                                                    
     satisfy  one  group,  the outside  pressures  from  the                                                                    
     Lower 48 get very involved.  We must have a process. If                                                                    
     there is  a flaw  in the process,  and that  works both                                                                    
     ways, if  we're duplicating  efforts and  we're wasting                                                                    
     state's  money  or  company's money,  we  shouldn't  be                                                                    
     doing it.  If we  have a  shortfall for  evaluation, we                                                                    
     need to fix it.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
     Now I  want to  make it very  clear. I've  been through                                                                    
     these  processes and  if somebody  is going  to present                                                                    
     something on  Bristol Bay  or Pebble,  specifically, to                                                                    
     DNR, they  better be well-prepared  and I  haven't seen                                                                    
     anything yet. We're  jousting with something fictitious                                                                    
     at  this  point. Before  we  want  to talk  reclamation                                                                    
     plans, I want  to see as much effort  put into starting                                                                    
     up  as shutting  down. I'm  adamant about  seeing water                                                                    
     quality -  subsurface, surface -  I want  background on                                                                    
     hydrology. It's critical.  I want financial assurances.                                                                    
     I  want to  know  what financial  assurances there  are                                                                    
     during  start up,  midstream interruptions  when you're                                                                    
     operating - closure. You have to have these things.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
     Dam stability  - I  know a lot  about dam  stability. I                                                                    
     want to  know ground accelerations  and is it  tight in                                                                    
     the bedrock,  can it  be supported.  Now, I  don't have                                                                    
     the expertise of dam safety  engineers, but it needs to                                                                    
     be clear before we even  start the process, you have to                                                                    
     have all  of this.  We can't  as a state  - and  I feel                                                                    
     strongly about this - we can't  as a state go to random                                                                    
     processes.                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
4:17:02 PM                                                                                                                    
COMMISSIONER IRWIN  said if  the state  chooses randomly  it will                                                               
drive resource  development away, because  the risks will  be too                                                               
high  and everyone  knows  how outside  influences  can make  the                                                               
decisions that the state should be making.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  HUGGINS asked  a  question about  ethics  and conflict  of                                                               
interest. He  said multiple articles  have been written  over the                                                               
last month about  some people who worked for  Murkowski last year                                                               
who are now lobbyists. His  deputy commissioner from DNR was also                                                               
in some of  those articles who said she worked  as a lobbyist for                                                               
one of  the potential  competitors under AGIA  in a  former life.                                                               
He asked what he thought about that issue.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MR. IRWIN replied  that first of all, the  article didn't present                                                               
the  correct dates.  And when  he became  commissioner, a  deputy                                                               
commissioner  helped  convince  him  he  should  serve.  She  had                                                               
already committed  to leaving to  be a  partner in a  firm, which                                                               
the  firm reported  correctly. He  asked her  to give  him a  few                                                               
weeks to help  him out, which she did. She  clearly did not start                                                               
her  new  job until  the  end  of  February. "She  is  incredibly                                                               
honorable.  So  she  stuck  with  me and  they  tied  this  whole                                                               
reporting together as February." He  reminded them that they were                                                               
doing  no  negotiating or  lobbying  at  that time.  The  process                                                               
hadn't even  started yet. "So  for her situation, her  loyalty to                                                               
the state, her honesty, and frankly  her support of me when I was                                                               
fired,  her leaving,  her integrity  is impeccable  and she  does                                                               
this state a great service."                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Second, he said  ethics are important; but the  legislature has a                                                               
real problem  because it is  tough to legislative  ethics. Ethics                                                               
come from inside a person.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
     So, do  we need  ethics? Absolutely....I think  we also                                                                    
     need to question the issue  - and it's tough in Alaska.                                                                    
     If I  may speak for you  all, you don't have  full time                                                                    
     jobs  here.  We  have  people   that  once  they  leave                                                                    
     government service  also, they still want  to live here                                                                    
     and  work here.  And we  need to  be careful.  You have                                                                    
     some  tough  decisions.  How  can  they  go  back  into                                                                    
     industry? You  certainly don't want people  who work in                                                                    
     the legislative  area or  in governmental  service then                                                                    
     having  to  leave the  state  because  they can't  find                                                                    
     work.  So,   I'm  not  answering  your   question;  I'm                                                                    
     probably muddying it more. But  those are tough issues.                                                                    
     You've got to allow people to be able to stay here.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
He  related how  he signed  over  everything with  the Fort  Knox                                                               
project -  after being its  vice president and general  manager -                                                               
to a deputy commissioner of  DNR, when he became commissioner. He                                                               
didn't even attend meetings - even  though he wanted to know what                                                               
was  going  on there  -  because  he  thought  there would  be  a                                                               
conflict  of interest.  Maybe he  overdid  it, but  he felt  good                                                               
about himself.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
When he  left state government, he  wanted to stay in  the state.                                                               
He  was  offered  a  good  position  in  Golden  Valley  Electric                                                               
Association that he didn't take  because there are clear lines if                                                               
you are  a commissioner or higher  up and he didn't  even want to                                                               
come close.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
4:23:33 PM                                                                                                                    
CHAIR  HUGGINS said  he didn't  mean to  intimate anything  about                                                               
anyone's integrity  or honesty. That  is not the question  in his                                                               
mind; it's the appearance. And  because the state is negotiating,                                                               
it could legally come back and bite them.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MR.  IRWIN said  he didn't  think so  and the  issue ever  got to                                                               
court,  he would  request the  deputy commissioner's  negotiation                                                               
notes with TransCanada about which  he said, "I think you'll find                                                               
she beat the tar  out of them. I wish we'd have  done the same in                                                               
other negotiations....  She has  negotiated incredibly  well." He                                                               
was very gratified that she decided to stay on.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR WAGONER  moved to  forward Mr. Irwin's  name to  the full                                                               
body. There were no objections and it was so ordered.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
4:25:41 PM                                                                                                                    
^Big Game Commercial Services Board - Confirmation Hearing                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR HUGGINS invited Richard Rohrer to testify.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
RICHARD  ROHRER,  BearCamp, Inc.,  reappointee  to  the Big  Game                                                               
Commercial Services Board,  said he first came to  Alaska in 1965                                                               
and  has been  involved  in  the guide  industry  ever since.  He                                                               
described his various licenses and offered to answer questions.                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR WAGONER  asked how  the reconstitution  of the  board had                                                               
been working.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MR. ROHRER replied  that the board has worked  very well together                                                               
and he hoped to see it through the sunset date.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR STEVENS  said he didn't  know that Mr. Rohrer  had worked                                                               
on  developing  the  Kodiak Archipelago  conservation  management                                                               
plan..                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MR.  ROHRER   responded  that  the   brown  bear  plan   is  used                                                               
extensively and  is very  well respected all  over the  world. He                                                               
continues  to  be on  the  CUBS  committee  that helps  both  the                                                               
federal government and state biologists implement all its parts.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  STEVENS asked  if  he is  happy with  how  the plan  has                                                               
worked  out.  [Mr.  Rohrer's phone  connection  stopped  at  this                                                               
point.]                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
4:30:40 PM                                                                                                                    
CHAIR HUGGINS announced that Leif  Wilson was not present, but he                                                               
wanted to continue processing both  of the names. He hadn't heard                                                               
of any issues with Mr. Wilson.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MR.  ROHRER   [reconnected]  agreed   that  the  plan   was  very                                                               
successful.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
4:31:57 PM                                                                                                                    
CHAIR HUGGINS  asked if he  could describe what oversight  he had                                                               
over guide conduct and activities.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
MR. ROHRER replied  that part of the legislative  mandate for the                                                               
board  was to  establish  ethics  - which  it  did  at its  first                                                               
meeting. They were  placed into regulation quickly.  He said that                                                               
the  board  is responsible  for  licensing  people who  meet  the                                                               
criteria  in all  categories and  has  disciplinary authority  as                                                               
well.                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR HUGGINS asked  if he had dealt with the  case where a pilot                                                               
broke the wings  off two airplanes including  the lower longerons                                                               
and flew away afterwards.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MR. ROHRER replied that the board had not dealt with that case.                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR HUGGINS asked how long it normally takes to get to a case.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MR. ROHRER replied the board has  been in existence for two years                                                               
and he is a little frustrated at how slowly cases get to it.                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR HUGGINS  said if that's  the case,  the board might  not be                                                               
functioning correctly.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR WAGONER asked where he saw the slowdown.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MR.  ROHRER replied  that normally  disciplinary actions  come to                                                               
the  board from  the investigator  with  the DECCD.  Just as  the                                                               
board was established,  the department had a  change of personnel                                                               
and he wasn't  sure its current investigator  is permanent. Also,                                                               
the  department has  only one  person dealing  with guide-related                                                               
issues and  he has other boards  to deal with as  well. The DECCD                                                               
is the licensing  authority he works with and it's  always been a                                                               
bit of a personnel issue.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
4:34:49 PM                                                                                                                    
SENATOR STEVENS moved to forward the two names to the full body.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR WAGONER objected  to delete Mr. Wilson's  name. There was                                                               
no  objection and  only Mr.  Rohrer's name  was forwarded  to the                                                               
full body.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
4:36:23 PM                                                                                                                    
Alaska Oil and Gas Conservation Commissioner ^AOGCC                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
CATHY  FOERSTER, Engineering  Commissioner,  AOGCC, thanked  them                                                               
for considering her reappointment to  this position. She has been                                                               
serving the  state in  the AOGCC  since March  2005 when  she was                                                               
appointed  to  complete the  unexpired  term  of the  engineering                                                               
commissioner.  She  has  a  few  reasons  why  she  wants  to  be                                                               
reappointed.  First,  she is  grateful  for  the chance  to  give                                                               
something back to the state. This  has been a wonderful place for                                                               
her family to grow up.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
The second reason is purely business.  The AOGCC is in the middle                                                               
of  several extremely  important  and  highly technical  projects                                                               
right now and  many of them are heavily  dominated by engineering                                                               
issues. For  example, it  just completed  a technical  study that                                                               
will  inevitably  assist  them  in  determining  the  appropriate                                                               
allowable gas off-takes  from Prudhoe Bay when the  state has the                                                               
North  Slope gas  sale.  It is  also  in the  early  phases of  a                                                               
similar study for the Pt. Thomson reservoir.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  WAGONER asked  if Pt.  Thomson is  called a  retro grade                                                               
field.                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MS. FOERSTER replied  that it is a gas condensate  or retro grade                                                               
condensation field.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR WAGONER  asked for her  take on Exxon claiming  that that                                                               
field is not economical to  produce gas liquids without producing                                                               
the gas at the same time.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MS.  FOERSTER replied  that she  didn't have  enough information,                                                               
but her opinion  is that the amount of condensate  at risk is 300                                                               
million barrels -  comparable to an Alpine field.  That's why the                                                               
commission  has engaged  in a  study  to try  to understand  what                                                               
Exxon  is saying  so it  can  come to  its own  conclusion as  to                                                               
whether  it is  feasible to  get the  reserves by  cycling or  if                                                               
going to gas blowdown is the only option.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR STEDMAN moved to forward  Ms. Foerster's name to the full                                                               
body. There were no objections and it was so ordered.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
At ease from 4:40:39 PM to 4:41:20 PM.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
        HB  25-RECREATIONAL LAND USE LIABILITY/ADV. POSS                                                                    
                                                                                                                              
4:41:20 PM                                                                                                                    
CHAIR HUGGINS announced HB 25 to be up for consideration.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE PAUL  SEATON, sponsor of  HB 25, read  the sponsor                                                               
statement.  He  said  it  encourages  expansion  of  recreational                                                               
opportunities for Alaskans by  protecting private landowners that                                                               
allow  free  recreational  use  of their  lands  by  raising  the                                                               
liability standard  to "intentional, reckless or  gross negligent                                                               
misconduct".                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
He  related that  currently land  owners rely  on the  unimproved                                                               
land statute,  but it  is problematic  because the  definition of                                                               
what   is  improved   and  unimproved   is  not   clear  in   the                                                               
determinations that have  come out of the  courts. So, landowners                                                               
are  unable to  really  assess their  liability  when they  allow                                                               
recreational use of their land.                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
This  bill also  protects landowners  from adverse  possession or                                                               
prescriptive easement based on them  giving free recreational use                                                               
to recreational users.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  SEATON  said  that  many  people  have  testified                                                               
favorably about this issue.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
4:45:30 PM                                                                                                                    
SENATOR STEVENS  said other states  have done similar  things and                                                               
asked how this bill compares to those.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON  pointed out nine pages  of documents about                                                               
other states. Many have used the same tack.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
4:46:19 PM                                                                                                                    
SENATOR  WIELECHOWSKI asked  if  recently  passed legislation  on                                                               
adverse  possession and  prescriptive easements  didn't apply  to                                                               
these lands.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  SEATON replied  that a  bill was  passed limiting                                                               
the  state from  taking land  through eminent  domain. He  didn't                                                               
think they had changed the  adverse possession statutes recently.                                                               
Prescriptive easement is  more the case where  someone claims the                                                               
use of the land and can claim  its use for the future. He pointed                                                               
out that  this bill applies only  if the recreational use  is for                                                               
free. This does not apply if the use is for commercial purposes.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR WAGONER commented that the  legislature passed an adverse                                                               
possession  bill, called  the "squatters'  bill,"  three or  four                                                               
years ago. He thought that took care of all these concerns.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  HUGGINS  asked the  status  of  airplanes taking  off  and                                                               
landing in his back yard.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON replied that taking  off and landing is not                                                               
trespassing. If  it is  done for  recreational purposes,  that is                                                               
defined in the  statute, but does not include  language about air                                                               
fields. It  expressly does not include  boxing contests, sparring                                                               
and  wrestling  matches   or  exhibitions,  activities  involving                                                               
devices  that are  subject to  the requirements  of AS  05.20. He                                                               
said he  would have  to check  out which  statute applied  to air                                                               
fields.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR HUGGINS  asked him to  check that  out because he  has been                                                               
asked that question multiple times.  He asked if his backyard has                                                               
a groomed area  that someone would call a strip,  is that covered                                                               
in his bill under "improved".                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  SEATON replied  that under  this bill  it doesn't                                                               
matter  if it  is improved  or  not, but  it does  matter if  its                                                               
recreational use is free or not.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR HUGGINS asked what if the land is owned collectively.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  SEATON replied  that the  land would  have to  be                                                               
privately owned, not publicly owned  as with a municipality - and                                                               
you can't charge for its use.                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
4:51:41 PM                                                                                                                    
SENATOR STEVENS said  they are trying to protect  land owners and                                                               
this  doesn't  protect  them  from   any  event.  He  asked  what                                                               
responsibility landowners have for maintenance.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  SEATON  replied  if  someone  has  an  attractive                                                               
nuisance that  he knows is  dangerous, and  a minor comes  in and                                                               
gets hurt, he  can be liable. This bill adopts  the same standard                                                               
the state has for unimproved land and it is case-specific.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
4:54:26 PM                                                                                                                    
DAVE BRANN,  Kachemak Nordic  Ski Club member,  said he  had been                                                               
involved in trail development and  maintenance in Alaska for over                                                               
30 years and  things are more difficult in the  last 10 years due                                                               
to smaller  parcels of private  property for  recreational trails                                                               
to go over. People want and  need trails close to urban areas and                                                               
liability concerns are  problematic. "HB 25 does a  great deal to                                                               
solve  those  problems  and  make   recreational  use  much  more                                                               
available and attractive to the local community members."                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
4:56:16 PM                                                                                                                    
MILLI  MARTIN, Homer,  said she  is also  a member  of the  Kenai                                                               
Peninsula  Borough  Assembly, and  that  it  passed a  resolution                                                               
supporting HB  25. She  noted that 45  other states  have similar                                                               
statutes.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
4:57:46 PM                                                                                                                    
CHAIR HUGGINS thanked her for serving on the assembly.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
DAVID STUTZER, Homer resident, said  he has been working with his                                                               
neighbors  to provide  easements to  the ski  club for  the trail                                                               
that crosses  their land. He  said this is  a very good  bill and                                                               
would ease  his neighbor's concerns about  adverse possession and                                                               
liability  as discussed  by Representative  Seaton. He  said with                                                               
the growth  of the  state and development  of areas  around towns                                                               
and cities,  it becomes necessary  to have trails  across private                                                               
land.  This bill  would allow  people to  give permission  to use                                                               
those  lands   without  fear  of   liability  except   for  gross                                                               
negligence.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
4:59:22 PM                                                                                                                    
MICHAEL SCHNEIDER, Anchorage  resident, said the issues  in HB 25                                                               
have  merit, but  he has  problems with  the way  it is  written.                                                               
Subsection  (a) where  it says  a  landowner need  only to  allow                                                               
recreational  activity  -  that   language  is  too  lose.  Under                                                               
(e)(1)(C)  "charge"  is  defined  as  "a  contribution  in  kind,                                                               
service, or cash  from a user if all of  the contribution is used                                                               
to improve access...." He said  under that language someone could                                                               
charge him  $1,000 to hunt  bear on  their property and  he could                                                               
fall  into  a  pit  or  some hazard  that  they  knew  about  and                                                               
unreasonably failed  to warn  him of. They  could after  the fact                                                               
take his  $1,000 and  put it towards  remediation of  the problem                                                               
and comply with  the technical words of this statute.  He did not                                                               
want  to  give  that  sort of  broad  immunity  to  inappropriate                                                               
circumstances.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  HUGGINS asked  him to  get together  with the  sponsor. He                                                               
agreed and apologized  for not getting together  with him before.                                                               
He asked if he was representing himself.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MR. SCHNEIDER replied  that he has been a  practicing attorney in                                                               
Anchorage  for  32   years  mainly  tort  claims.   He  has  been                                                               
interested  in acquiring  free  recreational  access to  property                                                               
since he was 12 years old and he is speaking for himself.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
5:02:36 PM                                                                                                                    
CHAIR HUGGINS announced that he would hold the bill.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  SEATON  added  that  abandoned  aircraft  landing                                                               
areas are included in current  immunity language if they are away                                                               
from  an  improved  structure.  If  they  are  near  an  improved                                                               
structure,  it may  not qualify  for the  same immunity.  So this                                                               
bill clarifies that.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR HUGGINS announced he would hold HB 25.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
There being  no further  business to  come before  the committee,                                                               
Chair Huggins adjourned the meeting at 5:04:28 PM.