Legislature(1995 - 1996)

01/31/1995 05:05 PM WTR

Audio Topic
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
                HOUSE SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON WORLD                               
               TRADE AND STATE/FEDERAL RELATIONS                               
                        January 31, 1995                                       
                           5:05 p.m.                                           
 MEMBERS PRESENT                                                               
 Representative Ramona Barnes, Chairman                                        
 Representative Gail Phillips, Vice Chairman                                   
 Representative Eldon Mulder                                                   
 Representative Bill Williams                                                  
 Representative Gary Davis                                                     
 Representative Gene Kubina                                                    
 Representative Jerry Mackie                                                   
 MEMBERS ABSENT                                                                
 COMMITTEE CALENDAR                                                            
 * HB 83:   "An Act relating to state implementation of federal                
            PASSED OUT OF COMMITTEE                                            
 * HJR 8:   A Resolution relating to mandates and other conditions             
            imposed on the states by the federal government.                   
            PASSED OUT OF COMMITTEE                                            
 * HJR 20:  A Resolution relating to unfunded federal mandates and             
            the Conference of the States.                                      
            PASSED OUT OF COMMITTEE                                            
 * HJR 10:  Relating to mandates imposed on the states by the                  
            federal government.                                                
            BILL HEARING CANCELLED                                             
 * HJR 16:  Relating to mandates imposed on the states by the                  
            federal government.                                                
            BILL HEARING CANCELLED                                             
 (* First public hearing)                                                      
 WITNESS REGISTER                                                              
 REPRESENTATIVE SCOTT OGAN                                                     
 Alaska State Legislature                                                      
 State Capitol, Room 409                                                       
 Juneau, Alaska  99801-1182                                                    
 Telephone:  465-3878                                                          
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Offered sponsor statements HB 83, HJR 8                  
 JOHN B. "JACK" COGHILL, Consultant                                            
 Coghill, Wilcox & Associates                                                  
 904 Calhoun                                                                   
 Juneau, Alaska  99802                                                         
 Telephone:  463-5153                                                          
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Supported HB 83                                          
 ROBERT SCHMACHER                                                              
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Supported HB 83, HJR 8                                   
 GENE OTTENSTROER, Self                                                        
 Post Office Box 1059                                                          
 Delta Junction, Alaska 99737                                                  
 Telephone:  895-4805                                                          
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Supported HB 83                                          
 SCOTT HAMANN                                                                  
 Alaskan Bikers Advocating Training                                            
   and Education (ABATE)                                                       
 Post Office Box 934                                                           
 Kenai, Alaska 99611                                                           
 Telephone:  283-4481                                                          
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Supported HB 83 with concern                             
 GARY SUPERMAN, Self                                                           
 Post Office Box 8425                                                          
 Nikiski, Alaska  99635                                                        
 Telephone:  776-8448                                                          
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Supported HB 83                                          
 MIKE SEAMAN, Self                                                             
 408 N. Gill Street                                                            
 Kenai, Alaska  99611                                                          
 Telephone:  283-4970                                                          
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Supported HB 83                                          
 SEYMOUR MILLS, Self                                                           
 Post Office Box 51                                                            
 Sterling, Alaska  99672                                                       
 Telephone:  262-9289                                                          
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Supported HB 83                                          
 JACK KREINHEDER, Senior Policy Analyst                                        
 Office of Management and Budget                                               
 Office of the Governor                                                        
 Post Office Box 110020                                                        
 Juneau, Alaska  99811-0020                                                    
 Telephone:  465-4676                                                          
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Supported HB, HJR 8, HJR 20                              
 ELMER LINDSTROM, Special Assistant                                            
 Department of Health and Social Services                                      
 Office of the Commissioner                                                    
 Post Office Box 110601                                                        
 Juneau, Alaska  99811-0601                                                    
 Telephone:  465-3030                                                          
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Offered to look at fiscal note for HB 83                 
 GORDON EPPERLY, Self                                                          
 Post Office Box 34358                                                         
 Juneau, Alaska 99803                                                          
 Telephone:  789-5659                                                          
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Supported HB 83                                          
 BRIAN WEBERG, Program Director                                                
 Legislative Management                                                        
 National Conference of State Legislators                                      
 1500 Broadway  Suite 700                                                      
 Denver, Colorado  80202                                                       
 Telephone:  (303) 830-2200                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Supported HJR 20                                         
 PREVIOUS ACTION                                                               
 BILL:  HB 83                                                                 
 BILL VERSION:                                                                 
 SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) OGAN, Porter, Kohring, Toohey,                  
 JRN-PG        JRN-PG                 ACTION                                   
 01/13/95        42    (H)   PREFILE RELEASED                                  
 01/16/95        42    (H)   READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)                 
 01/16/95        42    (H)   WTR, STA, JUD                                     
 01/25/95       136    (H)   COSPONSOR(S): KOHRING                             
 01/25/95       136    (H)   COSPONSOR(S): TOOHEY                              
 01/27/95       162    (H)   COSPONSOR(S): JAMES                               
 01/31/95              (H)   WTR AT 05:00 PM CAPITOL 408                       
 BILL:  HJR 8                                                                
 SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) OGAN, Porter, Barnes, James,                    
             Toohey, Mulder, Kohring                                           
 JRN-DATE      JRN-PG                 ACTION                                   
 01/16/95        18    (H)   READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)                 
 01/16/95        18    (H)   WTR, STA, JUD                                     
 01/18/95        73    (H)   COSPONSOR(S): BARNES                              
 01/20/95       104    (H)   COSPONSOR(S): JAMES, TOOHEY                       
 01/23/95       118    (H)   COSPONSOR(S): MULDER                              
 01/25/95       135    (H)   COSPONSOR(S): KOHRING                             
 01/31/95              (H)   WTR AT 05:00 PM CAPITOL 408                       
 BILL:  HJR 20                                                               
 SHORT TITLE: CONFERENCE OF THE STATES                                         
 SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) BARNES, Grussendorf, Foster, Mulder             
 JRN-DATE      JRN-PG                 ACTION                                   
 01/23/95       115    (H)   READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)                 
 01/23/95       115    (H)   WTR, STA                                          
 01/31/95              (H)   WTR AT 05:00 PM CAPITOL 408                       
 BILL:  HJR 10                                                               
 SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) JAMES,Toohey                                    
 JRN-DATE     JRN-PG               ACTION                                      
 01/16/95        18    (H)   READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)                 
 01/16/95        18    (H)   WTR, STA, JUD                                     
 01/20/95       104    (H)   COSPONSOR(S): TOOHEY                              
 01/31/95              (H)   WTR AT 05:00 PM CAPITOL 408                       
 BILL:  HJR 16                                                                
 SHORT TITLE: STATE'S RIGHTS UNDER 10TH AMENDMENT                              
 SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) GREEN                                           
 JRN-DATE     JRN-PG               ACTION                                      
 01/16/95        20    (H)   READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)                 
 01/16/95        20    (H)   WTR, STA, JUD                                     
 01/31/95              (H)   WTR AT 05:00 PM CAPITOL 408                       
 ACTION NARRATIVE                                                              
 TAPE 95-2, SIDE A                                                             
 Number 000                                                                    
 The meeting of the House Special Committee on World Trade and                 
 State/Federal Relations was called to order by Chairman Ramona                
 Barnes at 5:05 p.m.  Members present at the call to order were                
 Representatives Barnes, Mulder, Williams, G. Davis, Mackie and                
 Kubina.  Members absent were Representative Phillips.                         
 CHAIRMAN RAMONA BARNES stated that there is quorum present and                
 noted the meeting was being teleconferenced to the                            
 Matanuska-Susitna Valley, Delta Junction and Kenai Peninsula.                 
 Number 024                                                                    
 HB 83 - REVIEW OF FEDERALLY MANDATED PROGRAMS                               
 REPRESENTATIVE SCOTT OGAN, sponsor of the measure, stated that HB
 83 is a companion to HJR 8 and articulates that the citizens of               
 Alaska stand against further attempts, by the federal government,             
 to encroach upon our autonomy and rights as a state under the Tenth           
 Amendment to the United States Constitution.  It requires that any            
 commissioner or agency head faced with implementing a federal                 
 mandate or condition must first carefully analyze the mandate for             
 three specific difficulties before making any efforts at                      
 compliance.  First, is the federal policy or legislation an                   
 unconstitutional abrogation of state power?  Second, is it in                 
 conflict with state policy?  And third, is the federal mandate a              
 cost effective method in this of dealing with the problem it                  
 addresses.  Representative Ogan said the agency head or                       
 commissioner will present his findings in the form of a written               
 report to the Governor, the Legislative Budget and Audit Committee,           
 and the House and Senate Judiciary Committees.  The two legislative           
 committees receiving such reports shall review them and are                   
 authorized to research the legality of the mandate.  Their                    
 conclusions shall be presented to the Governor, along with specific           
 recommendations to the executive branch for compliance, modified              
 compliance, or a legal challenge.  He said that the resolution                
 provides a mechanism to scrutinize efforts by the federal                     
 government to impose unsuitable policy on our state, and to assert            
 our right to self-determination, a right purchased for us at high             
 cost by our ancestors.                                                       
 REPRESENTATIVE GAIL PHILLIPS arrived at 5:09 p.m.                             
 Number 070                                                                    
 REPRESENTATIVE JERRY MACKIE inquired as to foreseen legal problems            
 by not enacting federal mandates and what kind of money we would              
 lose by not implementing some of these mandates.                              
 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN responded by saying that he did not believe               
 that there was an analysis done.  The federal government has                  
 imposed some 192 mandates on our state.  He stated that over a nine           
 year period, environmental unfunded federal mandates have cost the            
 Municipality of Anchorage nearly one-half billion dollars.                    
 Number 114                                                                    
 REPRESENTATIVE MACKIE asked why are we doing this if the federal              
 government is not going to give us the money.  For instance, if we            
 don't adhere to the federal mandates in the Department of                     
 Environmental Conservation (DEC) that we've got the Environmental             
 Protection Agency (EPA) managing and different problems there.  He            
 said he would like to look at Medicaid and the other programs that            
 have financial impact that affect us.                                         
 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN said he believes the bill would bring those               
 sort of problems to the forefront.  Currently, there's no modality            
 to set up and analyze any of this.  He says that he's sure that the           
 federal government will take the loose funding for refusing to do             
 a mandate into consideration.  The federal government has the                 
 option to implement the mandate.                                              
 Number 140                                                                    
 REPRESENTATIVE GARY DAVIS stated that he's not aware of any federal           
 mandate that the state has to spend money on.  The state can reject           
 any of them.  There are several requirements that we are given as             
 a time frame to implement, such as the "helmet law" last year.  We            
 had so (X-number of) many years to implement to it or lose a                  
 percentage of those federal dollars that would not be able to be              
 spent on highway construction.  The U.S. Senate just passed SB 1,             
 which was their response to unfunded mandates and the House has a             
 similar bill to be out soon.  He believes there are some technical            
 and legal questions that come up with this legislation.                       
 Number 173                                                                    
 REPRESENTATIVE GAIL PHILLIPS responded by saying that she doesn't             
 believe the state has an option on mandates that come down dealing            
 with public education or special education.  We have to handle                
 those regardless.                                                             
 REPRESENTATIVE MACKIE inquired if the bill was necessary or if the            
 Administration has the ability to do this or if we have to give               
 statutory authority to the Administration to use federal mandates.            
 CHAIRMAN BARNES said if the Administration were able to do this,              
 surely they would have.                                                       
 Number 190                                                                    
 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN says the federal government routinely                     
 "blackmails" us.  It's a form of taxation that the federal                    
 government wants to pass a program, but they don't want to fund it,           
 so they say that the states have to do this otherwise if we don't             
 do it, we'll be blackmailed and they will withhold funds for this             
 program or that program.                                                      
 REPRESENTATIVE GENE KUBINA stated that the legislature is just as             
 guilty as the federal government by requiring cities to do things,            
 whether its senior citizen tax rebates we don't fund or whether its           
 telling school districts to teach something else and then don't               
 fund them or whether its telling each department to make out                  
 another report, even though they put out a zero fiscal note.  I can           
 tell you there's a cost to it and it coming out of somebody's                 
 budget.  Every time we pass a law and direct anybody in the state,            
 we are really doing the same thing.                                           
 Number 230                                                                    
 JOHN B. `JACK' COGHILL, Consultant, Coghill, Wilcox and Associates,           
 says the bill relieves the policy maker, which is the legislature,            
 in directing the Administration and the people within the agencies            
 to give a report so that the legislature can act accordingly.  It             
 puts lawmakers right in the driver's seat. This issue has been                
 around at least since 1981, and this is the first time he's seen              
 anyone focus on it to the point where we'll be able to do something           
 about it.                                                                     
 ROBERT SCHMACHER, testifying from the Mat-Su Borough, said the bill           
 is something that the Alaska Independence Party has talked about              
 many times.  He said as an individual he feels the bill is a very             
 important issue for the committee to consider.  He urged that the             
 bill be moved in its current form.                                            
 Number 290                                                                    
 GENE OTTENSTROER, testified, via teleconference, from Delta                   
 Junction.  He said he feels in general it's a good bill.  As the              
 bottom line, he was concerned about how much freedom we would have            
 to give up.                                                                   
 SCOTT HAMANN, Alaskan Bikers Advocating Training and Education                
 (ABATE), testified, via teleconference, from Kenai.  He said he               
 supports the bill but, addressed the problem of implementing the              
 mandate first and then having review after the year's done.  We               
 need to have a vehicle, in place, to review the program before the            
 mandate is in place to see if we want the program.                            
 GARY SUPERMAN, testifying via teleconference from Kenai, said he's            
 surprised at the number of Tenth Amendment resolutions and bills              
 that have cropped up.  He said he questions about the legislative             
 review being to open ended.  He would like the legislature to                 
 incorporate the bill with that of the Senate bill in Colorado.                
 Number 351                                                                    
 REPRESENTATIVE PHILLIPS pointed out that if there was one thing               
 that people were talking about during this past interim around the            
 Kenai Peninsula, it was the legislature taking action on this type            
 of legislation.  She said she appreciates very much the input from            
 the general public during the interim.                                        
 MIKE SEAMAN, testifying via teleconference from Kenai, said he                
 thinks a bill is needed, but was hesitant to say whether this was             
 the right way to go.                                                          
 SEYMOUR MILLS, testifying via teleconference from Kenai, felt that            
 any bill that passes out would need a review to check to see that             
 it fits under Article I, Section 8 of the U.S. Constitution, before           
 anything ever happens.  If it doesn't fit, then it should be                  
 JACK KREINHEDER, Senior Policy Analyst, Office of Management and              
 Budget (OMB), Office of the Governor, said although he had not been           
 informed about a position pro or con of the Knowles Administration,           
 he talked with Pat Pourchot, Legislative Liaison, who said that the           
 Governor certainly supported the intent of these measures with more           
 flexibility to deal with our unique circumstances.  The                       
 Administration has some concern about the requirement to review.              
 He said apparently every federal program has this requirement and             
 that the Administration's position is that it may be better to                
 concentrate our resources on the programs that are identified by              
 the legislature and the Administration, as the ones with the                  
 biggest fiscal impacts or that present the biggest problems to the            
 state rather running through the whole laundry list of programs,              
 some of which may not present a problem.                                      
 Number 425                                                                    
 REPRESENTATIVE MACKIE made a motion to move Amendment 1, which was            
 offered by Representative Ogan.                                               
      On page 2, lines 13 through 15, delete "The commissioner of              
      each department or head of another agency in the Executive               
      Branch shall annually review each program administered by that           
      department or agency.  Insert, "The Office of Management and             
      Budget shall annually review each program administered by each           
      department or agency of the Executive Branch."                           
      On page 2, line 16, delete "The commissioner or agency head,"            
      and insert "The Office of Management and Budget."                        
      On page 2, line 19, delete "commissioner or agency head" and             
      insert "Office of Management and Budget."                                
      On page 3, line 18, following "governor," insert "and the                
      Alaska Congressional delegation."                                        
 MR. KREINHEDER, OMB, said he feels that on the surface, he sees no            
 problem with the amendment and that in concept, it makes sense to             
 let more than one agency do the review.                                       
 Number 455                                                                    
 ELMER LINDSTROM, Special Assistant, Department of Health and Social           
 Services, admits to being a guilty party of high fiscal notes.  The           
 department is subject to federal mandates and it will need                    
 additional resources as to what programs they need to look at if              
 OMB is going to be directing.                                                 
 CHAIRMAN BARNES asked for a roll call on the amendment.                       
 Representatives Mackie, Kubina, Williams, Davis, Mulder, Phillips,            
 and Barns all voted in favor of the adoption of Amendment 1.  It              
 passed unanimously.                                                           
 REPRESENTATIVE PHILLIPS made a motion to move CSHB 83(WTR) out of             
 committee with individual recommendations.                                    
 CHAIRMAN BARNES asked if there was an objection.  Hearing none, the           
 motion passed.                                                                
 REPRESENTATIVE MACKIE was excused from the meeting.                           
 HJR 8 - OPPOSING FEDERAL MANDATES ON STATES                                 
 Number 500                                                                    
 HJR 8 was the next order of business to come before the committee.            
 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN, sponsor, stated that HJR 8 is a means of                 
 articulating the resolve of the citizens of Alaska to stand against           
 further attempts by the federal government to encroach upon our               
 autonomy and rights, as a state, under the Tenth Amendment to the             
 U.S. Constitution.  A prime example of this abuse, the federal                
 management of fish and wildlife resources within the state, is                
 specifically addressed in HJR 8.  Nowhere in the U.S. Constitution            
 is either Congress or the Executive Branch given authority to                 
 regulate or manage fish and game, except to the extent these                  
 resources enter the flow of interstate commerce.                              
 GORDON EPPERLY, spoke in support of HJR 8.  He pointed out there is           
 a little known historical problem with the Tenth Amendment of the             
 Constitution.  As a result of the United States bankruptcy in 1993,           
 Congress declared that the nation shall be in a state of National             
 Emergency.  When that happens, the Constitution is suspended and              
 the sovereign rights of the states temporarily cease to exist.  It            
 was under the declared emergency that the U.S. swayed the states to           
 contract away most of their sovereign powers.  Mr. Epperly said               
 that State of Emergency still exists.                                         
 TAPE 95-2, SIDE B                                                             
 Number 000                                                                    
 ROBERT SCHMACHER, testified from the Mat-Su Valley, in support of             
 HJR 8.  He said it reaffirms the Tenth Amendment Right.  Mr.                  
 Shoemaker said he realizes that fish and game tends to be a hot               
 issue.  He noted he has been upset about the position that the                
 Governor has taken.                                                           
 There being no further testimony, REPRESENTATIVE MULDER moved and             
 asked unanimous consent to pass HJR 8 out of committee with the               
 accompanying fiscal notes.  Hearing no objection, it was so                   
 HJR 20 - CONFERENCE OF THE STATES                                           
 The final measure to come before the committee was HJR 20,                    
 sponsored by CHAIRMAN BARNES.  She stated that this resolution                
 authorizes the state of Alaska to send an official delegation to              
 represent the people of Alaska at a Conference of the States, in              
 1996.  This conference would be the first formal meeting of the 50            
 states since 1786.  She noted that the conference will convene no             
 later than 270 days after at least 26 legislatures adopt similar              
 resolutions and that Alaska would be represented by five voting               
 members consisting of the governor and four legislators, two from             
 each body.  The action plan to be voted on at this conference will            
 be called a States' Petition.  It will be presented to each state             
 in the form of a resolution for ratification, then presented to               
 Congress as the will of the states of the Union.  Chairman Barnes             
 said that since 1990 alone, the federal government has enacted over           
 40 major statutes imposing expensive regulations and requirements             
 on state and local governments.  This is first step toward                    
 reversing the trend and restoring the balanced system of government           
 envisioned by the Tenth Amendment.                                            
 Number 100                                                                    
 BRIAN WEBERG, Program Director, Legislative Management, National              
 Conference of State Legislators (NCSL), supports the measure and              
 added that three states, Kentucky, Utah, Virginia, as of January              
 27, 1995, had passed this resolution.  In six other states, it has            
 passed at least one house chamber and has been introduced in 19               
 other states.  He said he anticipates more states becoming                    
 interested in this type of legislation.                                       
 MR. WEBERG stated that many states have Tenth Amendments on their             
 agendas and the bill is a way to bring the issues forward in a                
 coordinated way.                                                              
 Number 142                                                                    
 CHAIRMAN BARNES added that she's pleased to see NCSL take a more              
 active part in state's rights' issues.                                        
 REPRESENTATIVE ELDON MULDER echoed Chairman Barnes remarks about              
 the leadership role that NCSL has taken in regards to states'                 
 Number 155                                                                    
 REPRESENTATIVE PHILLIPS asked what kind of feedback had NCSL                  
 received from Congress.                                                       
 MR. WEBERG reported that Congress was very receptive to this kind             
 of initiative.  He stated that a meeting would take place in March,           
 in Washington, D.C.  He said state legislators, with the new                  
 congressional leaders and Administration, will get a good notion of           
 how they feel and, probably at that point, NCSL would know if this            
 is going to go forward.                                                       
 MR. WEBERG also said that since no states' conference of this                 
 nature had taken place in over 200 years, both the press and public           
 would be focused on this.  If a unified opinion comes out of this,            
 it's going to be heard.                                                       
 Number 188                                                                    
 MR. KREINHEDER, OMB, offered a statement of support from the                  
 Knowles Administration for HJR 20.  The Administration believes               
 some of the important areas would be welfare reform, education,               
 environmental protection and health care.  In many other cases,               
 what works for some states will not work in some places.                      
 CHAIRMAN BARNES expressed to Mr. Kreinheder how appreciative she              
 was of the Administration's support and asked him to convey her               
 sentiments to the Administration.                                             
 Number 214                                                                    
 REPRESENTATIVE MULDER voiced concern that the proposed convention             
 through this legislation was a viable alternative to a                        
 Constitutional Convention.                                                    
 REPRESENTATIVE DAVIS made the motion to move HJR 20 out of                    
 CHAIRMAN BARNES asked if there was an objection.  Hearing none, it            
 was so ordered.                                                               
 Number 230                                                                    
 CHAIRMAN BARNES announced that the next World Trade committee                 
 meeting will be a joint committee meeting with International Trade            
 and Tourism on Thursday, February 9, 1995 at 5 p.m. in the                    
 Butrovich Room. We will hear from John Sibert, Executive Director             
 of the Alaska Science and Technology Foundation.                              
 There being no further business to come before the House Special              
 Committee on World Trade and State/Federal Relations, CHAIRMAN                
 BARNES adjourned the meeting at 6:08 p.m.                                     

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