Legislature(1995 - 1996)
01/31/1995 05:05 PM WTR
* first hearing in first committee of referral
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
HOUSE SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON WORLD TRADE AND STATE/FEDERAL RELATIONS January 31, 1995 5:05 p.m. MEMBERS PRESENT Representative Ramona Barnes, Chairman Representative Gail Phillips, Vice Chairman Representative Eldon Mulder Representative Bill Williams Representative Gary Davis Representative Gene Kubina Representative Jerry Mackie MEMBERS ABSENT None COMMITTEE CALENDAR * HB 83: "An Act relating to state implementation of federal statutes." PASSED OUT OF COMMITTEE * HJR 8: A Resolution relating to mandates and other conditions imposed on the states by the federal government. PASSED OUT OF COMMITTEE * HJR 20: A Resolution relating to unfunded federal mandates and the Conference of the States. PASSED OUT OF COMMITTEE * HJR 10: Relating to mandates imposed on the states by the federal government. BILL HEARING CANCELLED * HJR 16: Relating to mandates imposed on the states by the federal government. BILL HEARING CANCELLED (* First public hearing) WITNESS REGISTER REPRESENTATIVE SCOTT OGAN Alaska State Legislature State Capitol, Room 409 Juneau, Alaska 99801-1182 Telephone: 465-3878 POSITION STATEMENT: Offered sponsor statements HB 83, HJR 8 JOHN B. "JACK" COGHILL, Consultant Coghill, Wilcox & Associates 904 Calhoun Juneau, Alaska 99802 Telephone: 463-5153 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported HB 83 ROBERT SCHMACHER POSITION STATEMENT: Supported HB 83, HJR 8 GENE OTTENSTROER, Self Post Office Box 1059 Delta Junction, Alaska 99737 Telephone: 895-4805 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported HB 83 SCOTT HAMANN Alaskan Bikers Advocating Training and Education (ABATE) Post Office Box 934 Kenai, Alaska 99611 Telephone: 283-4481 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported HB 83 with concern GARY SUPERMAN, Self Post Office Box 8425 Nikiski, Alaska 99635 Telephone: 776-8448 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported HB 83 MIKE SEAMAN, Self 408 N. Gill Street Kenai, Alaska 99611 Telephone: 283-4970 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported HB 83 SEYMOUR MILLS, Self Post Office Box 51 Sterling, Alaska 99672 Telephone: 262-9289 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported HB 83 JACK KREINHEDER, Senior Policy Analyst Office of Management and Budget Office of the Governor Post Office Box 110020 Juneau, Alaska 99811-0020 Telephone: 465-4676 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported HB, HJR 8, HJR 20 ELMER LINDSTROM, Special Assistant Department of Health and Social Services Office of the Commissioner Post Office Box 110601 Juneau, Alaska 99811-0601 Telephone: 465-3030 POSITION STATEMENT: Offered to look at fiscal note for HB 83 GORDON EPPERLY, Self Post Office Box 34358 Juneau, Alaska 99803 Telephone: 789-5659 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported HB 83 BRIAN WEBERG, Program Director Legislative Management National Conference of State Legislators 1500 Broadway Suite 700 Denver, Colorado 80202 Telephone: (303) 830-2200 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported HJR 20 PREVIOUS ACTION BILL: HB 83 SHORT TITLE: REVIEW OF FEDERALLY MANDATED PROGRAMS BILL VERSION: SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) OGAN, Porter, Kohring, Toohey, James JRN-PG JRN-PG ACTION 01/13/95 42 (H) PREFILE RELEASED 01/16/95 42 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S) 01/16/95 42 (H) WTR, STA, JUD 01/25/95 136 (H) COSPONSOR(S): KOHRING 01/25/95 136 (H) COSPONSOR(S): TOOHEY 01/27/95 162 (H) COSPONSOR(S): JAMES 01/31/95 (H) WTR AT 05:00 PM CAPITOL 408 BILL: HJR 8 SHORT TITLE: OPPOSING FEDERAL MANDATES ON STATES SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) OGAN, Porter, Barnes, James, Toohey, Mulder, Kohring JRN-DATE JRN-PG ACTION 01/16/95 18 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S) 01/16/95 18 (H) WTR, STA, JUD 01/18/95 73 (H) COSPONSOR(S): BARNES 01/20/95 104 (H) COSPONSOR(S): JAMES, TOOHEY 01/23/95 118 (H) COSPONSOR(S): MULDER 01/25/95 135 (H) COSPONSOR(S): KOHRING 01/31/95 (H) WTR AT 05:00 PM CAPITOL 408 BILL: HJR 20 SHORT TITLE: CONFERENCE OF THE STATES SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) BARNES, Grussendorf, Foster, Mulder JRN-DATE JRN-PG ACTION 01/23/95 115 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S) 01/23/95 115 (H) WTR, STA 01/31/95 (H) WTR AT 05:00 PM CAPITOL 408 BILL: HJR 10 SHORT TITLE: OPPOSING FEDERAL MANDATES ON STATES SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) JAMES,Toohey JRN-DATE JRN-PG ACTION 01/16/95 18 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S) 01/16/95 18 (H) WTR, STA, JUD 01/20/95 104 (H) COSPONSOR(S): TOOHEY 01/31/95 (H) WTR AT 05:00 PM CAPITOL 408 BILL: HJR 16 SHORT TITLE: STATE'S RIGHTS UNDER 10TH AMENDMENT SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) GREEN JRN-DATE JRN-PG ACTION 01/16/95 20 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S) 01/16/95 20 (H) WTR, STA, JUD 01/31/95 (H) WTR AT 05:00 PM CAPITOL 408 ACTION NARRATIVE TAPE 95-2, SIDE A Number 000 The meeting of the House Special Committee on World Trade and State/Federal Relations was called to order by Chairman Ramona Barnes at 5:05 p.m. Members present at the call to order were Representatives Barnes, Mulder, Williams, G. Davis, Mackie and Kubina. Members absent were Representative Phillips. CHAIRMAN RAMONA BARNES stated that there is quorum present and noted the meeting was being teleconferenced to the Matanuska-Susitna Valley, Delta Junction and Kenai Peninsula. Number 024 HB 83 - REVIEW OF FEDERALLY MANDATED PROGRAMS REPRESENTATIVE SCOTT OGAN, sponsor of the measure, stated that HB 83 is a companion to HJR 8 and articulates that the citizens of Alaska stand against further attempts, by the federal government, to encroach upon our autonomy and rights as a state under the Tenth Amendment to the United States Constitution. It requires that any commissioner or agency head faced with implementing a federal mandate or condition must first carefully analyze the mandate for three specific difficulties before making any efforts at compliance. First, is the federal policy or legislation an unconstitutional abrogation of state power? Second, is it in conflict with state policy? And third, is the federal mandate a cost effective method in this of dealing with the problem it addresses. Representative Ogan said the agency head or commissioner will present his findings in the form of a written report to the Governor, the Legislative Budget and Audit Committee, and the House and Senate Judiciary Committees. The two legislative committees receiving such reports shall review them and are authorized to research the legality of the mandate. Their conclusions shall be presented to the Governor, along with specific recommendations to the executive branch for compliance, modified compliance, or a legal challenge. He said that the resolution provides a mechanism to scrutinize efforts by the federal government to impose unsuitable policy on our state, and to assert our right to self-determination, a right purchased for us at high cost by our ancestors. REPRESENTATIVE GAIL PHILLIPS arrived at 5:09 p.m. Number 070 REPRESENTATIVE JERRY MACKIE inquired as to foreseen legal problems by not enacting federal mandates and what kind of money we would lose by not implementing some of these mandates. REPRESENTATIVE OGAN responded by saying that he did not believe that there was an analysis done. The federal government has imposed some 192 mandates on our state. He stated that over a nine year period, environmental unfunded federal mandates have cost the Municipality of Anchorage nearly one-half billion dollars. Number 114 REPRESENTATIVE MACKIE asked why are we doing this if the federal government is not going to give us the money. For instance, if we don't adhere to the federal mandates in the Department of Environmental Conservation (DEC) that we've got the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) managing and different problems there. He said he would like to look at Medicaid and the other programs that have financial impact that affect us. REPRESENTATIVE OGAN said he believes the bill would bring those sort of problems to the forefront. Currently, there's no modality to set up and analyze any of this. He says that he's sure that the federal government will take the loose funding for refusing to do a mandate into consideration. The federal government has the option to implement the mandate. Number 140 REPRESENTATIVE GARY DAVIS stated that he's not aware of any federal mandate that the state has to spend money on. The state can reject any of them. There are several requirements that we are given as a time frame to implement, such as the "helmet law" last year. We had so (X-number of) many years to implement to it or lose a percentage of those federal dollars that would not be able to be spent on highway construction. The U.S. Senate just passed SB 1, which was their response to unfunded mandates and the House has a similar bill to be out soon. He believes there are some technical and legal questions that come up with this legislation. Number 173 REPRESENTATIVE GAIL PHILLIPS responded by saying that she doesn't believe the state has an option on mandates that come down dealing with public education or special education. We have to handle those regardless. REPRESENTATIVE MACKIE inquired if the bill was necessary or if the Administration has the ability to do this or if we have to give statutory authority to the Administration to use federal mandates. CHAIRMAN BARNES said if the Administration were able to do this, surely they would have. Number 190 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN says the federal government routinely "blackmails" us. It's a form of taxation that the federal government wants to pass a program, but they don't want to fund it, so they say that the states have to do this otherwise if we don't do it, we'll be blackmailed and they will withhold funds for this program or that program. REPRESENTATIVE GENE KUBINA stated that the legislature is just as guilty as the federal government by requiring cities to do things, whether its senior citizen tax rebates we don't fund or whether its telling school districts to teach something else and then don't fund them or whether its telling each department to make out another report, even though they put out a zero fiscal note. I can tell you there's a cost to it and it coming out of somebody's budget. Every time we pass a law and direct anybody in the state, we are really doing the same thing. Number 230 JOHN B. `JACK' COGHILL, Consultant, Coghill, Wilcox and Associates, says the bill relieves the policy maker, which is the legislature, in directing the Administration and the people within the agencies to give a report so that the legislature can act accordingly. It puts lawmakers right in the driver's seat. This issue has been around at least since 1981, and this is the first time he's seen anyone focus on it to the point where we'll be able to do something about it. ROBERT SCHMACHER, testifying from the Mat-Su Borough, said the bill is something that the Alaska Independence Party has talked about many times. He said as an individual he feels the bill is a very important issue for the committee to consider. He urged that the bill be moved in its current form. Number 290 GENE OTTENSTROER, testified, via teleconference, from Delta Junction. He said he feels in general it's a good bill. As the bottom line, he was concerned about how much freedom we would have to give up. SCOTT HAMANN, Alaskan Bikers Advocating Training and Education (ABATE), testified, via teleconference, from Kenai. He said he supports the bill but, addressed the problem of implementing the mandate first and then having review after the year's done. We need to have a vehicle, in place, to review the program before the mandate is in place to see if we want the program. GARY SUPERMAN, testifying via teleconference from Kenai, said he's surprised at the number of Tenth Amendment resolutions and bills that have cropped up. He said he questions about the legislative review being to open ended. He would like the legislature to incorporate the bill with that of the Senate bill in Colorado. Number 351 REPRESENTATIVE PHILLIPS pointed out that if there was one thing that people were talking about during this past interim around the Kenai Peninsula, it was the legislature taking action on this type of legislation. She said she appreciates very much the input from the general public during the interim. MIKE SEAMAN, testifying via teleconference from Kenai, said he thinks a bill is needed, but was hesitant to say whether this was the right way to go. SEYMOUR MILLS, testifying via teleconference from Kenai, felt that any bill that passes out would need a review to check to see that it fits under Article I, Section 8 of the U.S. Constitution, before anything ever happens. If it doesn't fit, then it should be rejected. JACK KREINHEDER, Senior Policy Analyst, Office of Management and Budget (OMB), Office of the Governor, said although he had not been informed about a position pro or con of the Knowles Administration, he talked with Pat Pourchot, Legislative Liaison, who said that the Governor certainly supported the intent of these measures with more flexibility to deal with our unique circumstances. The Administration has some concern about the requirement to review. He said apparently every federal program has this requirement and that the Administration's position is that it may be better to concentrate our resources on the programs that are identified by the legislature and the Administration, as the ones with the biggest fiscal impacts or that present the biggest problems to the state rather running through the whole laundry list of programs, some of which may not present a problem. Number 425 REPRESENTATIVE MACKIE made a motion to move Amendment 1, which was offered by Representative Ogan. On page 2, lines 13 through 15, delete "The commissioner of each department or head of another agency in the Executive Branch shall annually review each program administered by that department or agency. Insert, "The Office of Management and Budget shall annually review each program administered by each department or agency of the Executive Branch." On page 2, line 16, delete "The commissioner or agency head," and insert "The Office of Management and Budget." On page 2, line 19, delete "commissioner or agency head" and insert "Office of Management and Budget." On page 3, line 18, following "governor," insert "and the Alaska Congressional delegation." MR. KREINHEDER, OMB, said he feels that on the surface, he sees no problem with the amendment and that in concept, it makes sense to let more than one agency do the review. Number 455 ELMER LINDSTROM, Special Assistant, Department of Health and Social Services, admits to being a guilty party of high fiscal notes. The department is subject to federal mandates and it will need additional resources as to what programs they need to look at if OMB is going to be directing. CHAIRMAN BARNES asked for a roll call on the amendment. Representatives Mackie, Kubina, Williams, Davis, Mulder, Phillips, and Barns all voted in favor of the adoption of Amendment 1. It passed unanimously. REPRESENTATIVE PHILLIPS made a motion to move CSHB 83(WTR) out of committee with individual recommendations. CHAIRMAN BARNES asked if there was an objection. Hearing none, the motion passed. REPRESENTATIVE MACKIE was excused from the meeting. HJR 8 - OPPOSING FEDERAL MANDATES ON STATES Number 500 HJR 8 was the next order of business to come before the committee. REPRESENTATIVE OGAN, sponsor, stated that HJR 8 is a means of articulating the resolve of the citizens of Alaska to stand against further attempts by the federal government to encroach upon our autonomy and rights, as a state, under the Tenth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. A prime example of this abuse, the federal management of fish and wildlife resources within the state, is specifically addressed in HJR 8. Nowhere in the U.S. Constitution is either Congress or the Executive Branch given authority to regulate or manage fish and game, except to the extent these resources enter the flow of interstate commerce. GORDON EPPERLY, spoke in support of HJR 8. He pointed out there is a little known historical problem with the Tenth Amendment of the Constitution. As a result of the United States bankruptcy in 1993, Congress declared that the nation shall be in a state of National Emergency. When that happens, the Constitution is suspended and the sovereign rights of the states temporarily cease to exist. It was under the declared emergency that the U.S. swayed the states to contract away most of their sovereign powers. Mr. Epperly said that State of Emergency still exists. TAPE 95-2, SIDE B Number 000 ROBERT SCHMACHER, testified from the Mat-Su Valley, in support of HJR 8. He said it reaffirms the Tenth Amendment Right. Mr. Shoemaker said he realizes that fish and game tends to be a hot issue. He noted he has been upset about the position that the Governor has taken. There being no further testimony, REPRESENTATIVE MULDER moved and asked unanimous consent to pass HJR 8 out of committee with the accompanying fiscal notes. Hearing no objection, it was so ordered. HJR 20 - CONFERENCE OF THE STATES The final measure to come before the committee was HJR 20, sponsored by CHAIRMAN BARNES. She stated that this resolution authorizes the state of Alaska to send an official delegation to represent the people of Alaska at a Conference of the States, in 1996. This conference would be the first formal meeting of the 50 states since 1786. She noted that the conference will convene no later than 270 days after at least 26 legislatures adopt similar resolutions and that Alaska would be represented by five voting members consisting of the governor and four legislators, two from each body. The action plan to be voted on at this conference will be called a States' Petition. It will be presented to each state in the form of a resolution for ratification, then presented to Congress as the will of the states of the Union. Chairman Barnes said that since 1990 alone, the federal government has enacted over 40 major statutes imposing expensive regulations and requirements on state and local governments. This is first step toward reversing the trend and restoring the balanced system of government envisioned by the Tenth Amendment. Number 100 BRIAN WEBERG, Program Director, Legislative Management, National Conference of State Legislators (NCSL), supports the measure and added that three states, Kentucky, Utah, Virginia, as of January 27, 1995, had passed this resolution. In six other states, it has passed at least one house chamber and has been introduced in 19 other states. He said he anticipates more states becoming interested in this type of legislation. MR. WEBERG stated that many states have Tenth Amendments on their agendas and the bill is a way to bring the issues forward in a coordinated way. Number 142 CHAIRMAN BARNES added that she's pleased to see NCSL take a more active part in state's rights' issues. REPRESENTATIVE ELDON MULDER echoed Chairman Barnes remarks about the leadership role that NCSL has taken in regards to states' rights. Number 155 REPRESENTATIVE PHILLIPS asked what kind of feedback had NCSL received from Congress. MR. WEBERG reported that Congress was very receptive to this kind of initiative. He stated that a meeting would take place in March, in Washington, D.C. He said state legislators, with the new congressional leaders and Administration, will get a good notion of how they feel and, probably at that point, NCSL would know if this is going to go forward. MR. WEBERG also said that since no states' conference of this nature had taken place in over 200 years, both the press and public would be focused on this. If a unified opinion comes out of this, it's going to be heard. Number 188 MR. KREINHEDER, OMB, offered a statement of support from the Knowles Administration for HJR 20. The Administration believes some of the important areas would be welfare reform, education, environmental protection and health care. In many other cases, what works for some states will not work in some places. CHAIRMAN BARNES expressed to Mr. Kreinheder how appreciative she was of the Administration's support and asked him to convey her sentiments to the Administration. Number 214 REPRESENTATIVE MULDER voiced concern that the proposed convention through this legislation was a viable alternative to a Constitutional Convention. REPRESENTATIVE DAVIS made the motion to move HJR 20 out of committee. CHAIRMAN BARNES asked if there was an objection. Hearing none, it was so ordered. Number 230 CHAIRMAN BARNES announced that the next World Trade committee meeting will be a joint committee meeting with International Trade and Tourism on Thursday, February 9, 1995 at 5 p.m. in the Butrovich Room. We will hear from John Sibert, Executive Director of the Alaska Science and Technology Foundation. ADJOURNMENT There being no further business to come before the House Special Committee on World Trade and State/Federal Relations, CHAIRMAN BARNES adjourned the meeting at 6:08 p.m.