Legislature(1995 - 1996)

03/06/1996 08:08 AM RES

Audio Topic
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
               HOUSE RESOURCES STANDING COMMITTEE                              
                         March 6, 1996                                         
                           8:08 a.m.                                           
 MEMBERS PRESENT                                                               
 Representative Joe Green, Co-Chairman                                         
 Representative William K. "Bill" Williams, Co-Chairman                        
 Representative Scott Ogan, Vice Chairman                                      
 Representative Alan Austerman                                                 
 Representative John Davies                                                    
 Representative Pete Kott                                                      
 Representative Irene Nicholia                                                 
 MEMBERS ABSENT                                                                
 Representative Ramona Barnes                                                  
 Representative Don Long                                                       
 COMMITTEE CALENDAR                                                            
 HOUSE BILL 175                                                                
 "An Act relating to sport fish guides; and providing for an                   
 effective date."                                                              
      - PASSED CS HB 175 (RES) OUT OF COMMITTEE                                
 HOUSE BILL 296                                                                
 "An Act relating to the authority of the State of Alaska over fish            
 and game."                                                                    
      - HEARD AND HELD                                                         
 *HOUSE BILL 329                                                               
 "An Act providing for restitution to the state for the unlawful               
 taking of game."                                                              
      - PASSED HB 329 OUT OF COMMITTEE                                         
 (*First Hearing)                                                              
 PREVIOUS ACTION                                                               
 BILL:  HB 175                                                               
 SHORT TITLE: SPORT FISH GUIDE LICENSING                                       
 SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) AUSTERMAN,Ivan                                  
 JRN-DATE      JRN-PG   ACTION                                                 
 02/10/95       303    (H)   READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)                 
 02/10/95       303    (H)   FSH, RESOURCES, FINANCE                           
 02/27/95       511    (H)   COSPONSOR(S): IVAN                                
 03/13/95              (H)   FSH AT  5:00 PM CAPITOL 124                       
 03/13/95              (H)   MINUTE(FSH)                                       
 03/29/95              (H)   FSH AT  5:00 PM CAPITOL 124                       
 03/29/95              (H)   MINUTE(FSH)                                       
 01/31/96              (H)   FSH AT  5:00 PM CAPITOL 124                       
 01/31/96              (H)   MINUTE(FSH)                                       
 02/07/96              (H)   FSH AT  5:00 PM CAPITOL 124                       
 02/07/96              (H)   MINUTE(FSH)                                       
 02/21/96              (H)   FSH AT  5:00 PM CAPITOL 124                       
 02/21/96              (H)   MINUTE(FSH)                                       
 02/23/96      2870    (H)   FSH RPT  CS(FSH) NT 2DP 1NR 1AM                   
 02/23/96      2870    (H)   DP: ELTON, AUSTERMAN                              
 02/23/96      2870    (H)   NR: G.DAVIS                                       
 02/23/96      2870    (H)   AM: OGAN                                          
 02/23/96      2870    (H)   FISCAL NOTE (F&G)                                 
 02/23/96              (H)   RES AT  8:00 AM KENAI                             
 02/28/96              (H)   MINUTE(FSH)                                       
 03/06/96              (H)   RES AT  8:00 AM CAPITOL 124                       
 BILL:  HB 296                                                               
 SHORT TITLE: STATE AUTHORITY OVER FISH AND GAME                               
 SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) VEZEY                                           
 JRN-DATE     JRN-PG    ACTION                                                 
 04/05/95      1027    (H)   READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)                 
 04/05/95      1027    (H)   FSH, RESOURCES                                    
 04/12/95              (H)   FSH AT  5:00 PM CAPITOL 124                       
 04/12/95              (H)   MINUTE(FSH)                                       
 04/12/95              (H)   MINUTE(FSH)                                       
 04/18/95      1349    (H)   FSH RPT  1DP 3NR                                  
 04/18/95      1350    (H)   DP: ELTON                                         
 04/18/95      1350    (H)   NR: G.DAVIS, OGAN, AUSTERMAN                      
 04/18/95      1350    (H)   ZERO FISCAL NOTE (F&G)                            
 04/18/95      1350    (H)   ADDITIONAL REFERRAL TO JUD                        
 04/18/95      1350    (H)   REFERRED TO RESOURCES                             
 04/28/95              (H)   RES AT  8:00 AM CAPITOL 124                       
 04/28/95              (H)   MINUTE(RES)                                       
 03/06/96              (H)   RES AT  8:00 AM CAPITOL 124                       
 BILL:  HB 329                                                               
 SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) BUNDE,Grussendorf,Ogan                          
 JRN-DATE     JRN-PG    ACTION                                                 
 05/03/95      1814    (H)   READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)                 
 05/03/95      1814    (H)   RESOURCES AND FINANCE                             
 03/06/96              (H)   RES AT  8:00 AM CAPITOL 124                       
 WITNESS REGISTER                                                              
 BARRY BRACKEN                                                                 
 Kaleidoscope Charters                                                         
 P. O. Box 1201                                                                
 Petersburg, AK  99833                                                         
 Telephone:  (907) 772-3736                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Supports CS HB 175.                                      
 KEVIN DELANEY, Director                                                       
 Division of Sport Fish                                                        
 Department of Fish and Game                                                   
 333 Raspberry Road                                                            
 Anchorage, AK  99518-1579                                                     
 Telephone:  (907) 267-2218                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT:  The department supports CS HB 175.                       
 KENT F. HALL                                                                  
 500 Lincoln Street, Suite 641                                                 
 Sitka, AK  99835                                                              
 Telephone:  (907) 747-5089                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Supports CS HB 175.                                      
 DONALD WESTLUND                                                               
 P. O. Box 7883                                                                
 Ketchikan, AK  99901                                                          
 Telephone:  (907)225-9319                                                     
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Opposed to CS HB 175.                                    
 ALAN LeMASTER                                                                 
 P. O. Box 222                                                                 
 Gakona, AK  99586                                                             
 Telephone:  (907) 822-3664                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Recommended changes to CS HB 175.                        
 JOE HANES                                                                     
 P. O. Box 3132                                                                
 Soldotna, AK  99669                                                           
 Telephone:  (907) 262-6388                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Supports CS HB 175.                                      
 ANDY SZCZESNY                                                                 
 198 Hillcrest Avenue                                                          
 Soldotna, AK  99669                                                           
 Telephone:  262-9439                                                          
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Supports CS HB 175.                                      
 RUBEN HANKE                                                                   
 P. O. Box 624                                                                 
 Kenai, AK  99611                                                              
 Telephone:  (907) 262-5097                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Supports CS HB 175.                                      
 BUD HODSON                                                                    
 4852 Hunter Street                                                            
 Anchorage, AK  99501                                                          
 Telephone:  (907) 243-8450                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Supports CS HB 175.                                      
 JOHN WITTEVEEN                                                                
 P. O. Box 2239                                                                
 Kodiak, AK  99615                                                             
 Telephone:  (907) 486-3953                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Expressed concern with CS HB 175.                        
 GERON BRUCE, Legislative Liaison                                              
 Commissioner's Office                                                         
 Department of Fish and Game                                                   
 P. O. Box 25526                                                               
 Juneau, AK  99811-5526                                                        
 Telephone:  (907) 465-6141                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT:  The department has concerns with HB 296.                 
 JOE RYAN, Legislative Staff                                                   
   to Representative Joe Vezey                                                 
 Alaska State Legislature                                                      
 Capitol, Room 13                                                              
 Juneau, AK  99801                                                             
 Telephone:  (907) 3258                                                        
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified on behalf of sponsor HB 296.                   
 DALE BONDURANT                                                                
 HC1 Box 1197                                                                  
 Soldotna, AK  99669                                                           
 Telephone:  (907) 262-0818                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Supports HB 296.                                         
 MICHAEL WALLERI, General Counsel                                              
 Tanana Chiefs Conference                                                      
 122 1st Avenue                                                                
 Fairbanks, AK  99701                                                          
 Telephone:  (907) 452-8257                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Opposed to HB 296.                                       
 DICK BISHOP                                                                   
 Alaska Outdoor Council                                                        
 P. O. Box 73902                                                               
 Fairbanks, AK  99707                                                          
 Telephone:  455-4262                                                          
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Supports HB 296.                                         
 REPRESENTATIVE CON BUNDE                                                      
 Alaska State Legislature                                                      
 Capitol, Room 108                                                             
 Juneau, AK  99801                                                             
 Telephone:  (907) 465-3871                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Sponsor of HB 329.                                       
 ACTION NARRATIVE                                                              
 TAPE 96-26, SIDE A                                                            
 Number 000                                                                    
 CO-CHAIRMAN JOE GREEN called the House Resources Committee meeting            
 to order at 8:08 a.m.  Members present at the call to order were              
 Representatives Green, Williams, Ogan, Austerman, and Kott.                   
 Representatives Davies and Nicholia arrived late.  Representatives            
 Barnes and Long were absent.                                                  
 HB 175 SPORT FISH GUIDE LICENSING                                           
 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN announced the committee calendar and stated his             
 intent to wrap up testimony on CS HB 175 and move the bill from               
 committee.  HB 296 and HB 329 would also be heard.                            
 Number 095                                                                    
 REPRESENTATIVE ALAN AUSTERMAN felt that the version of CS HB 175              
 before the committee is good compromise legislation.  He said his             
 main objective in sponsoring HB 175 is, (1) it registers sport fish           
 operators, and (2) it requires them to report their catch.                    
 Number 240                                                                    
 C0-CHAIRMAN WILLIAM K. "BILL" WILLIAMS asked clarification of the             
 registration requirements.                                                    
 REPRESENTATIVE AUSTERMAN replied that a business license does not             
 register sport fish operators as a guide, it registers them in the            
 state as a business.  He said there is no set, Standard Industrial            
 Classification (SIC), code for sport fish operators.                          
 Number 336                                                                    
 BARRY BRACKEN, Owner, Kaleidoscope Cruises, testified in support of           
 CS HB 175 recommending that the committee consider a decal, similar           
 to what the game transporters use and the International Halibut               
 Commission posts on all operating vessels.  The decal would                   
 identify the year, and be issued with the license, making it easier           
 for the Department of Public Safety to identify a legitimate                  
 charter operator.  He said his only concern is how the funding will           
 be generated for the department's reporting requirements.                     
 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN asked Mr. Bracken if the decal, he envisions,               
 would be similar to the Coast Guard decal.                                    
 MR. BRACKEN responded yes, or similar to the International Halibut            
 Commission decal or the game transporter decal.                               
 Number 508                                                                    
 KEVIN DELANEY, Director, Division of Sport Fish, Department of Fish           
 and Game (ADF&G) responded to Mr. Bracken's concern regarding how             
 the ADF&G would finance the reporting requirements.  The department           
 foresees that the owner/operator guides would be required to                  
 purchase their licenses from ADF&G.  At that time, they would                 
 provide the department with an affidavit saying that they meet the            
 qualifications for the guide license.  When they submit their fees,           
 the department would provide their license and issue them a                   
 logbook.  They would be required to keep a record of their harvest            
 and distribution effort throughout the season.  The logbook would             
 be returned to the ADF&G at the end of the season.                            
 MR. DELANEY advised the panel that one person would be required to            
 manage the system, assisted by a data entry person to enter that              
 information into the data bank.  The ADF&G area managers would then           
 prepare the assessments from that information.  The fee structure             
 would cover those expenses and a few other expenses.                          
 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN noted the arrival of Representative John Davies.            
 Number 649                                                                    
 KENT F. HALL, charter operator, stated that he generally supports             
 this legislation.  He said he had a concern about enforcement and             
 wondered how the department would ensure that everyone is licensed.           
 MR. DELANEY replied that the fiscal note for CS HB 175 provides for           
 a Reimbursable Services Agreement (RSA) with the Department of                
 Public Safety.  The ADF&G and the DPS envision that one person from           
 the Department of Public Safety, the first year, would become an              
 expert in the implementation of the sports fish guide licensing               
 procedures.  The RSA would provide for salary and travel to follow            
 this through.  He mentioned Sitka, Homer, Valdez, Kenai and the               
 lower Nushagak.                                                               
 Number 804                                                                    
 REPRESENTATIVE JOHN DAVIES asked if the fee structure in the bill             
 has enough funds in it to offset enforcement requirements.                    
 MR. DELANEY replied that it comes close to being a wash.  He said             
 the cost of employing one law enforcement staff, some travel and              
 the ability to follow appropriate cases through the court system,             
 for an entire year, would cost $100,000.  That would be covered by            
 the license fees.                                                             
 Number 874                                                                    
 DONALD WESTLUND, sport guide/charter operator, stated resentment of           
 the proposed passage of CSHB 175 from the House Resources Committee           
 as the committee had just received it.  He said HB 175 will help              
 report the catch, "I do not catch the fish, my client catches the             
 fish."  He said the ADF&G creel census takes that into account, and           
 the legislature has not given enough time to the provision that               
 registers guides that was passed last year.  He further expressed             
 concern with the issue of enforcement and the method of registering           
 the guides.  His closing remarks, "I am not favor of this bill!"              
 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN informed Mr. Westlund that there have been at               
 least six prior hearings on HB 175.                                           
 Number 1200                                                                   
 ALAN LeMASTER, testified from Glennallen, stating that the                    
 "transporter" can have an enormous affect on the river and felt the           
 committee should give that point more attention.  He elaborated on            
 a hypothetical situation where the transporter impacted the river             
 many times greater than the sports fish guide, and suggested that             
 the transporters also be licensed and permitted, just like the                
 guides, and under the same fee structure restrictions.  He stated             
 that because the transporters can have such an enormous impact on             
 the river, if we get into a limited entry situation, which is                 
 probably not your focus, that should also be a question as to how             
 many transporters would be allowed on the river compared to the               
 number of guides.                                                             
 Number 1359                                                                   
 MR. DELANEY replied that the subject of transporters came up,                 
 continually, during the development of HB 175, and said it is very            
 important that it is considered.  The original bill had a provision           
 for a transporter license but it is not there at the present time.            
 When the definitions for the services of the operator and the guide           
 were developed for HB 175, they were developed, in part, with an              
 eye toward the transporter.                                                   
 MR. DELANEY said if the transporter of your hypothetical case were            
 to drop everybody off and leave, never stay with them on the gravel           
 bar long enough for them to get their equipment out and begin                 
 fishing, and never provide them with advice about the campground              
 and, in the meantime, somebody is out getting their gear together             
 and beginning to cast then, in fact, that transporter would be able           
 to drop folks off and leave and probably escape from the definition           
 and the licensing system in this bill.  He said that is rarely the            
 case over the course of a summer.  He explained that there may come           
 a day when a transporter provision is necessary, but, presently, it           
 is the committee's intent to capture this in the definitions                  
 established by this bill and to keep this licensing system as                 
 simple as possible.                                                           
 Number 1449                                                                   
 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN informed the witness that there is a separate               
 resolution that addresses limited entry.                                      
 Number 1513                                                                   
 MR. LeMASTER contended that if the transporters were not controlled           
 then why should the guides/operators pay all the fees when they can           
 buy a boat, drop off 10 or 15 groups and make the same kind of                
 money and be done by 10:00 or 11:00 a.m.                                      
 Number 1548                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE AUSTERMAN apprised the committee of considerable               
 discussion on the transporters.  A transporter can be air charter             
 services; how can you require them to report how many fish they               
 brought back in coolers.  Is Alaska Airlines a transporter when               
 they carry fish south?  The House Special Committee on Fisheries              
 looked at how the ADF&G was managing big game transporters and the            
 board is phasing out that license because of the problems.  We do             
 recognize the amount of fish taken because of transporters, but how           
 you regulate them and, actually, gather the information is a step             
 further beyond the original intent of HB 175 in reference to sport            
 fish guiding.  He said that transporters can be revisited if it               
 becomes a problem.                                                            
 Number 1626                                                                   
 JOE HANES, President, Kenai River Guide Association, testified for            
 himself and agreed with the testimony of Mr. LeMaster concerning              
 the transporters.  He talked about a possible requirement for a               
 guide/operator of holding an Alaska fishing license for three-five            
 years and related that the Coast Guard has a requirement of 365               
 days of sea time but no manpower to check on that.  He described              
 the flow of people, coming and going, who have never seen the Kenai           
 River before being a major safety concern on the river and the                
 enforcement issue of verifying whether or not they held a license             
 and had knowledge of the weather and tides.  He debated the                   
 reporting requirements and said certain areas are already heavily             
 scrutinized by the ADF&G and rather than duplicate that                       
 information, those areas should be excluded.                                  
 Number 1723                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE AUSTERMAN stated that this issue had been discussed,           
 at length, with the department.  We are encouraging them to use               
 other reporting systems, already in place, that provide the same              
 information, separate from the creel count, than enforcing more               
 work upon the operators.                                                      
 REPRESENTATIVE IRENE NICHOLIA asked if the Department of Fish and             
 Game had provided a letter of support for HB 175.                             
 MR. DELANEY said the department did not have a letter but the                 
 Department of Fish and Game supports HB 175.  He said there is a              
 real convergence of interest between the department, the industry             
 and Alaskans that have struck a good balance, and the department              
 will support the legislation as long as it remains substantially              
 similar.  He said it is a good bill.                                          
 Number 1800                                                                   
 ANDREW SZCZESNY testified from Kenai stating his support of HB 175,           
 but he felt that stricter guidelines for the guides were needed,              
 especially, for the people coming up here who have no experience.             
 Number 1829                                                                   
 RUBEN HANKE testified from Kenai agreeing with Mr. LeMaster on the            
 transporter issue.  He said, "As a registered big game guide, I               
 know what kind of problems transporters have caused over the years,           
 and there has to be a way to get a handle on those guides."  He               
 felt that controlling the number of people that a guide takes is              
 one possibility.                                                              
 MR. HANKE concurred with Mr. Hanes testimony regarding the guide              
 requirement and the recommended stipulation that a guide should               
 hold a season fishing license for at least five years.  He asked if           
 the definition of guide service operators meant that a person had             
 to be a guide or have experience as guide, in order to qualify.               
 MR. DELANEY responded, no.                                                    
 MR. HANKE stated that if that person can contract for services and            
 not be a guide himself, then he was concerned about leaving a                 
 loophole for out of state, and out of country, booking agents.                
 Number 1911                                                                   
 MR. DELANEY did not believe that the state can prohibit                       
 nonresidents from conducting business in the state of Alaska. The             
 services license is basically a business license for a particular             
 type of business which is sport fish guiding.  He said the issue of           
 a three-five year requirement of holding a sport fishing license in           
 the state of Alaska would need to come in the guide licensing where           
 you could make the argument that people who accompany folks in the            
 field need to have that experience, but I do not believe it is                
 legal for us to control who owns and operates a business in the               
 state of Alaska.                                                              
 MR. HANKE said any booking agency, resident or nonresident, would             
 be able to hold a services license and they may not even be present           
 in the area while fishing is being conducted.  Who is responsible             
 when something happens?                                                       
 Number 1911                                                                   
 MR. DELANEY stated that there is not a mechanism for that in HB               
 175.  Under this bill, the services operator would be liable for              
 violations that are committed by clients in the field under that              
 persons employ.  There is a direct linkage back to the services               
 operator.  What we need to do is to get a licensing system in place           
 and, if there are problems with the transporter segment, and, if              
 there is a problem with the services operators not being present in           
 the field while activities conducted by their business are ongoing,           
 I think there will be ample opportunity to revisit that issue.                
 Number 2098                                                                   
 MR. HANKE acknowledged that it would be difficult to create one               
 bill that is all encompassing.  He asked if there was time to add             
 a provision for the three-five year fishing license prerequisite              
 before the committee takes any action.                                        
 REPRESENTATIVE AUSTERMAN said he was not in favor of adding any new           
 language at this particular point in time.  This is the starting              
 point on sport fish guide/operators licensing.  Let us work with it           
 for a year and then come back and attend to it, if necessary.                 
 MR. HANKE reaffirmed his support of HB 175.                                   
 Number 2218                                                                   
 BUD HODSON supports the bill as written and said that it is long              
 overdue.   He referred to the transporter question and said if                
 somebody is running people up and down the river, accompanying them           
 in the field and providing services for sport fishing, they are               
 outfitting.  They are required to have a license.                             
 MR. HODSON felt that outside booking agencies wanting to become               
 licensed operators probably would not want to pay $300,000 for an             
 insurance policy.                                                             
 Number 2333                                                                   
 JOHN WITTEVEEN, lodge owner/charter boat operator, testified from             
 Kodiak acknowledging that certain areas of the state are                      
 significantly impacted by sport fishing operations.  He said                  
 contrary to other people's opinions today, we have far too many               
 licensing requirements.  He stressed that if this bill becomes law,           
 his business would require somewhere near 11 or 12 licenses just to           
 operate.  He suggested that business license coding could be                  
 modified to identify the number of people that are in operation.              
 MR. WITTEVEEN felt that HB 175 does not do anything in terms of the           
 quality of the guides or the quality of operations.  He said, "I do           
 not think that you should lead yourself to believe that it will."             
 "It does not lay out any minimum requirements."                               
 MR. WITTEVEEN further said, in terms of the reporting of the fish             
 caught, one concern that charter boat operators have is some sort             
 of future quota system or a system of limited entry.                          
 MR. WITTEVEEN further stated concerns with the reporting system in            
 the bill and professed that he is an advocate of catch and release.           
 He supported the deletion of the transporter license from the bill            
 and asked whether a person can buy a sport fish operator/fishing              
 guide license combination for single operators who are operators as           
 well as guides.                                                               
 Number 2467                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE AUSTERMAN responded that the sport fish operator and           
 the fishing guide license had been combined to accommodate small              
 operators......(CHANGE TAPE)                                                  
 TAPE 96-26, SIDE B                                                            
 Number 000                                                                    
 MR. WITTEVEEN asked consideration that the licenses be modified to            
 indicate the number of people that are in operation.                          
 Number 017                                                                    
 MR. DELANEY appreciated Mr. Witteveen's points about catch and                
 release and record keeping.  He responded that utilization of the             
 licensing system data base will enhance the department's ability to           
 characterize the sport fish industry, in an area, that goes beyond            
 just the number of fish that they catch and kill.  It will enable             
 us to have a better idea of the harvest potential and to identify             
 what is important and valuable to the sport fishing industry in               
 that area.  Those are exactly the types of things that our area               
 managers want to consider when they select between an option that             
 would close a season early, reduce a bag limit, restrict the use of           
 bait or, in some cases, mandate catch and release.                            
 Number 075                                                                    
 MR. WITTEVEEN questioned the report logbook and whether the report            
 would indicate what the catch and release totals were.                        
 MR. DELANEY replied in the affirmative.                                       
 MR. WITTEVEEN asked if the bill pertains to only salmon and halibut           
 and does it affect rock fish, ling cod, cod, pollock, or grayling.            
 MR. DELANEY stated that the language in the bill states that we               
 shall report on salmon and halibut.  It does not prohibit us from           
 looking at the other species.  In most cases, I think we would be             
 looking at the mix of species that go beyond salmon and halibut,              
 but we want to keep it relatively simple from the onset.                      
 Number 148                                                                    
 REPRESENTATIVE AUSTERMAN commented that Mr. Witteveen is correct,             
 HB 175 is not meant to be a qualifier for guides or operators; it             
 sets up the system that identifies them.  This bill is not designed           
 for limited entry, or envisioned as limited entry, although limited           
 entry is always a possibility.                                                
 REPRESENTATIVE AUSTERMAN said his office is looking at the issue of           
 multiple licenses and has asked legislative research to conduct a             
 study listing all the different licenses that people have to have.            
 Number 207                                                                    
 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN referred to testimony offered during the February           
 23rd meeting in Kenai that the state of Oregon was able to limit              
 guiding to instate guides.  He asked the sponsor if he had looked             
 at that issue, "It has always been my impression that we were not             
 constitutionally able to limit guides to just Alaskan residents."             
 REPRESENTATIVE AUSTERMAN indicated that he had not followed up on             
 that investigation.                                                           
 Number 269                                                                    
 REPRESENTATIVE SCOTT OGAN moved Amendment Number 1:  Page 3, delete           
 lines 6, 7, 8, and 9.                                                         
 C0-CHAIRMAN GREEN objected for the purposes of discussion.                    
 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN stated that the amendment would delete the                
 requirement of a general liability insurance policy for operators.            
 He explained that the state of Alaska does not require businesses             
 to have insurance to be on file in order to get a business license.           
 Number 337                                                                    
 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN felt that without this requirement there would no           
 recompense for a negligent operation that ended up hurting or                 
 killing someone.                                                              
 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN agreed with the Chairman but remarked that he             
 has general problems with ordering it as a condition for licensing.           
 Number 418                                                                    
 REPRESENTATIVE AUSTERMAN clarified that this provision was left in            
 the bill to protect visitors to the state.                                    
 Number 482                                                                    
 CO-CHAIRMAN BILL WILLIAMS explained that he had worked on similar             
 legislation where companies in Ketchikan wanted assurance that                
 passengers off the cruise ships were well taken care and wanted               
 confirmation that the charter boat operators had insurance.                   
 REPRESENTATIVE AUSTERMAN concurred with Representative Williams               
 stating that the cruise lines now require a million dollars worth             
 of insurance before they let their passengers fly with an air                 
 charter service.                                                              
 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN explained that for operators in Mat-Su Valley,            
 who do not own boats, to have to have $1500 worth of insurance is             
 onerous when all they do is guide (drive) someone to a fishing hole           
 and show them how to bait a hook and how to catch a king salmon.              
 Number 525                                                                    
 REPRESENTATIVE AUSTERMAN said the discussion of limited entry keeps           
 coming up.  If somebody buys $300,000 worth of insurance, then they           
 are obviously not a speculator.                                               
 Number 576                                                                    
 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN stated that he would maintain his objection to              
 the amendment and called for a roll call vote.                                
 Representatives Ogan and Williams voted in favor of the Amendment             
 Number 1.  Representatives Austerman, Davies, Kott, Nicholia and              
 Green voted against Amendment Number 1.  So Amendment Number 1                
 Number 615                                                                    
 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN moved for adoption of Amendment Number 2: Page            
 3, delete lines 31 and 32.  Page 4, delete lines 1 and 2.                     
 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN objected for purposes of discussion.                        
 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN specified that he had philosophical problems              
 with the Department of Fish and Game being the policeman for the              
 United States Coast Guard.  Currently, it is illegal for someone to           
 operate a boat for hire without a Coast Guard license; why should             
 the state act as a policeman for the Coast Guard.  I think it is              
 inappropriate for the state to enforce federal laws by requiring              
 people to show proof that they have a Coast Guard license to get a            
 state guide license.                                                          
 Number 651                                                                    
 REPRESENTATIVE AUSTERMAN stated that the language in the bill was             
 requested by a number of the operators.  He said Representative               
 Ogan was correct, it is a duplication of enforcing Coast Guard                
 licensing but if we know that operator has a Coast Guard license              
 then we know that he has gone through the testing requirements and            
 has the appropriate number of hours at sea.                                   
 Number 750                                                                    
 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN responded to a question from Chairman Green               
 that a person did not need to be a boat operator in order to be a             
 fish guide.  He said he knew of several people who will be out of             
 business if this is passed, operating a boat has nothing to do with           
 being a fish guide.                                                           
 Number 786                                                                    
 REPRESENTATIVE AUSTERMAN referred to the language on line 32, "if             
 a person uses a vessel in the provision of fishing guide services             
 and the license is required by the Coast Guard."  He clarified that           
 rafts and canoes are primarily used upper reaches of some rivers in           
 the Interior of Alaska and that provision was put in there to allow           
 the people who are not using motor vessels to get a license.                  
 Number 810                                                                    
 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN said he stands corrected, but if that language            
 on page 3, line 32, is going to remain; it should be amended to               
 read, "if a person `operates' a vessel."                                      
 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN said his original objection was that the state            
 could become involved in enforcing federal law.                               
 REPRESENTATIVE DAVIES referred to page 4, line 32, "for the area in           
 which the fishing guide provides fishing guide services."  He said            
 he infers from the language that Coast Guard licenses are specific            
 to an area and require some knowledge of operating vessels in that            
 particular area, and if that inference is correct, then it would              
 seem that this requirement would be useful from the point of view             
 of trying to winnow down the number of people actually providing              
 services in that area to those people who have experience in the              
 area.  At least, there is some requirement that a person have some            
 area specific knowledge before operating there and to that extent,            
 I think it is a good requirement.                                             
 Number 946                                                                    
 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN called for a roll call vote on Amendment Number             
 Representatives Kott and Ogan voted in favor of the amendment.                
 Representatives Austerman, Davies, Nicholia, Williams and Green               
 voted against the amendment.  So Amendment Number 2 failed.                   
 Number 988                                                                    
 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN moved for the adoption of Amendment Number 3:             
 Page 4, delete lines 21, 22, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32.                  
 REPRESENTATIVE AUSTERMAN objected for the purpose of discussion.              
 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN said his concern is that the fish guide is                
 required to carry around copious amounts of paperwork in the field            
 such as proof of employment, proof of first aid and CPR.                      
 Number 1059                                                                   
 MR. DELANEY said the language was an enforcement tool since people            
 licensed as guides are not the people contracting with the clients,           
 those are the services operators.  These are people contacted in              
 the field by our people and this will be a quick way to identify              
 the services operator that the guide is associated with.  This                
 would be the only tool in the field to make a direct link between             
 the guide and the services operator.  He said, in most cases, the             
 enforcement officer will become fairly knowledgeable with the                 
 regular services operators and guides.                                        
 MR. DELANEY related that the affidavit would be used to license the           
 services operators or the service operator/guide combination.                 
 These licenses would be issued in the licensing section here in               
 Juneau.  He said this section covers the sport fish guides, these             
 are the people that are services operators that accompany people in           
 the field.  The reason this was approached differently is because             
 many services operators said that if they needed another guide                
 immediately, then they wanted to get those people licensed through            
 some other mechanism rather than sending a letter to Juneau.  We              
 can accommodate that through all, or part, of our vendor system.              
 Number 1236                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN said he was looking at the practical aspect of            
 packing around all this paperwork and wondered if there was a more            
 efficient way of accomplishing this.                                          
 Number 1300                                                                   
 MR. DELANEY replied that the paperwork is not a lot of bulk.  ADF&G           
 will assess, this first year, the most efficient way to issue guide           
 licenses, not the services operator licenses, but the actual guide            
 license.  At the onset, the ADF&G is looking at vendors having the            
 ability to sell that particular license.  In future, if somebody is           
 licensed for a number of years, perhaps this could be a multi-year            
 license, similar to the Board of Game.                                        
 Number 1424                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN discussed a conceptual amendment where the                
 "fishing guide's employer shall keep on file at all times," items             
 2, 4, 5, and 6.  The employer has the guide's license and his                 
 identification which is what the field officer needs to see.  He              
 said, "We are talking about a $500 fine, and after a second                   
 offense, your guiding days are over."                                         
 Number 1491                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE AUSTERMAN said that would be a major responsibility            
 to the vendors.                                                               
 Number 1565                                                                   
 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN said a water proof pouch should not be a burden.            
 Number 1599                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE KOTT felt that having to carry the specified amount            
 of paperwork did not seem that onerous.  He said that a CPR card is           
 nothing more than a small card in the wallet.  He further said that           
 the penalties are for knowingly or intentional violations which               
 would be very difficult to prove.  The department's position is a             
 good one.  Give it a couple of years to see whether or not we need            
 additional changes, and if the Department of Fish and Game can                
 become a one-stop shop.                                                       
 Number 1706                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN withdrew Amendment Number 3.                              
 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN imagined a case where someone lost this packet of           
 identification/information and asked the procedure for reproducing            
 the packet.                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE AUSTERMAN assured the committee that the guide could           
 easily provide positive identification.                                       
 Number 1737                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE DAVIES offered an amendment on page 3, line 32, to             
 delete the word "uses" and insert "operates" and continue the same            
 amendment on page 4, line 30.  Hearing no objection, it was so                
 Number 1868                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN moved that CS HB 175 as amended move from the             
 House Resources Committee with individual recommendations and                 
 attached fiscal note.  Hearing no objection, CS HB 175 (RES) passed           
 out of the House Resources Committee.                                         
 HB 296 - STATE AUTHORITY OVER FISH AND GAME                                 
 Number 1907                                                                   
 JOE RYAN, Legislative Staff to Representative Al Vezey, testified             
 on HB 296 reading the sponsor statement into the record:                      
 "House Bill 296, an Act relating to the authority of the state of             
 Alaska over fish and game, would codify the primacy of the state of           
 Alaska over the federal government on matters concerning the                  
 management of fish and game resources.  It is a state's right                 
 enjoyed by 49 other states.                                                   
 MR. RYAN proceeded, "The power to manage fish and game was given to           
 the state of Alaska as a condition of our becoming a state and as             
 a condition of entry into the union.  This power cannot be abridged           
 or altered, except by mutual agreement of the people of the state             
 of Alaska and the federal government.                                         
 MR. RYAN continued, "This bill will give the state of Alaska a tool           
 with which it can enforce the right of the state to manage it's               
 fish and game resources.  This bill also provides that state funds            
 cannot be used to implement or enforce federal fish and game                  
 MR. RYAN concluded, "This bill will send a message to the Congress            
 and people of the United States that the state of Alaska or an                
 agency created by the state, will be the only one permitted to                
 manage fish and game within the borders of the state of Alaska."              
 Number 2046                                                                   
 GERON BRUCE, Legislative Liaison, Department of Fish and Game,                
 testified that the ADF&G, and the Department of Law, had expressed            
 concern with HB 296, in the House Special Committee on Fisheries,             
 last year.  He referred to a work draft of the original bill and              
 asked if that committee substitute had ever been adopted.                     
 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN stated that the committee version was "K."                  
 MR. BRUCE said there is a difference between the two versions.  He            
 related that the Department of Law testified that the bill is a bit           
 of a "catch 22," because if a state law says you do not have to               
 follow federal law, what weight does it really have?  The United              
 States Constitution clearly states that federal law is supreme when           
 there is a conflict between state and federal law.                            
 MR. BRUCE said that puts the staff from the Department of Fish and            
 Game in a difficult position.  If this law were to pass, the people           
 in the field could be placed in a situation where they are being              
 given conflicting messages.  How does a wildlife biologist III, in            
 the field, sort out whether he is supposed to follow a state law              
 that says he cannot assist or cooperate with the federal wildlife             
 agencies that he works with in some matter where the federal agency           
 has jurisdiction or has regulations in place?                                 
 MR. BRUCE informed that the bill seems to speak exclusively to the            
 situation that exists with subsistence.  He said it was the only              
 situation where the federal government could and does exercise                
 management authority over fish and wildlife separate from the state           
 MR. BRUCE said another concern with this legislation pertains to              
 the message --  we do cooperate, to a large extent, in a lot of               
 areas to the state's advantage with the federal government in the             
 management of fish and wildlife.  The ADF&G receives approximately            
 $30,000,000 a year from the federal government to assist in the               
 management of fish and wildlife in the state.  There are a number             
 of areas where we work with the North Pacific Fisheries Management            
 Council to secure the state's ability to manage groundfish                    
 resources in state waters within the three mile limit so that we              
 can establish some near shore small boat fisheries that will extend           
 the operation of our shore based plants and allow Alaska-based                
 small boat fisherman opportunity.                                             
 MR. BRUCE further stated that these issues require cooperation                
 between the state and the federal entities to bring about and there           
 is a balance between firmly asserting the state's right to manage             
 its own fish and wildlife and being willing to cooperate with the             
 federal agency where you have crossing jurisdictions and other                
 reasons to cooperate.                                                         
 MR. BRUCE related that the department certainly has occasions where           
 it differs from federal polices and federal managers and take those           
 issues up on a case-by-case basis, but there are situations in                
 which cooperation is mutually beneficial.                                     
 MR. BRUCE emphasized the concern with HB 296 of the position it               
 would place field staff.  They are trying to do their job and a               
 state law says they cannot work with the federal government on a              
 subsistence issue and a federal regulation says something else.               
 Number 2451                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE KOTT recalled that last year the House Resources               
 Committee had referred this bill to a subcommittee.  He asked if              
 the subcommittee had reported it out.                                         
 REPRESENTATIVE IRENE NICHOLIA remembered that the subcommittee was            
 composed of Representatives Austerman, Davies and Ogan...(end                 
 TAPE 96-27, SIDE A                                                            
 Number 000                                                                    
 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN stated that there are a number of unanswered                
 MR. RYAN asked that committee substitute version "K" be introduced            
 for the purposes of discussion.  He said paragraph (d) on page 2              
 addresses last year's concerns about international agreements and             
 the Magnuson Treaty, and now pertains to enforcing federal law that           
 is the same as applied in all other states.  He explained, "If the            
 law does not apply equally among the states, and we feel it is                
 being applied only, specifically, in Alaska then, perhaps, we                 
 should not cooperate if it is to our detriment." The bill gives the           
 Department of Fish and Game employees the opportunity to cooperate            
 with the federal government on all things that are applied equally            
 among the states.  It does not preclude enactment, adoption or                
 enforcement of state laws which are substantially similar to                  
 federal law, or a law that preempts state management of fish and              
 Number 187                                                                    
 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN clarified that the sponsor felt that subparagraph           
 (d), in the proposed committee substitute, alleviates some of the             
 ADF&G concerns.                                                               
 Number 237                                                                    
 REPRESENTATIVE DAVIES recommended that the chair place the proposed           
 committee substitute version "K" before the subcommittee.                     
 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN apprised the panel of three witnesses on the                
 teleconference network waiting to testify on HB 296.  He wondered             
 about having the proposed committee substitute on the table as the            
 working document.                                                             
 Number 267                                                                    
 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN moved for the adoption of committee substitute            
 for HB 296 version "K."                                                       
 REPRESENTATIVE NICHOLIA objected.                                             
 C0-CHAIRMAN WILLIAMS clarified that HB 296 is in subcommittee.                
 REPRESENTATIVE NICHOLIA said, yes it is.                                      
 REPRESENTATIVE DAVIES reiterated that the appropriate course of               
 action would be for the committee substitute to be presented to the           
 subcommittee and the subcommittee would report out its                        
 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN agreed that would be the appropriate course of              
 action.  He indicated to Representative Ogan the point of order               
 regarding his motion to adopt the committee substitute.                       
 REPRESENTATIVE KOTT interjected that a motion was not needed and              
 that the subcommittee should work with the prime sponsor and the              
 subcommittee should report back to the full committee.                        
 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN withdrew his motion.                                      
 Number 400                                                                    
 DALE BONDURANT testified in support of HB 296 expressing his view             
 that the state should maintain its authority to manage common                 
 property fish and game resources.                                             
 Number 623                                                                    
 MICHAEL WALLERI, General Counsel, Tanana Chiefs Conference,                   
 testified in opposition to HB 296 and the committee substitute                
 version "K."  He said the bill boldly denies the obvious fact that            
 the federal government has control over substantial aspects of fish           
 and game management in Alaska.  Of particular importance, the bill            
 would suggest that no person, government agency or municipality may           
 exercise authority over the management of fish and game unless                
 authorized by state law, and it would direct state agencies to not            
 cooperate or enforce federal law which preempts or supersedes state           
 management of fish and game.                                                  
 MR. WALLERI emphasized concern that the bill would draw the state             
 from participation in co-management agreements under Section 809 of           
 ANILCA.  Under that section, federal agencies managing fish and               
 wildlife in Alaska may enter into cooperative management agreements           
 with Native groups and other entities.  There are currently three             
 such agreements in the state involving Tanana Chiefs Conference and           
 the Association of Village Council Presidents and the Copper River            
 Native Association.                                                           
 MR. WALLERI stated that the purpose of these agreements is to                 
 coordinate research and management with user groups.  Co-management           
 agreements have also been used to facilitate management of moose              
 populations in the Yukon Kuskokwim Delta with tremendous success.             
 He related that a recent Tanana Chiefs Conference study on Chum               
 salmon in the Koyukuk River demonstrated and revealed important               
 information about salmon runs in the area.  It also challenged                
 basic assumptions about state salmon counting methodology to                  
 estimate the run size for the Koyukuk River.  These efforts led to            
 a reassessment of the very serious problem in fish and game                   
 management in the Interior relating to Chum management.                       
 Number 800                                                                    
 MR. WALLERI cited Article 12, Section 2 of the state constitution             
 authorizing state government to cooperate with the federal                    
 government in various endeavors including fish and wildlife                   
 management.  He indicated that HB 296 may overstep the role of the            
 legislature in such agreements.  This section of the constitution             
 limits this body to the involvement in considering appropriations             
 in support of state and federal cooperative agreements.  A blanket            
 legislative veto of such agreements suggested by this bill may in             
 fact violate the Alaska State Constitutional separation of powers             
 between the executive and legislative branches.                               
 Number 844                                                                    
 MR. WALLERI concluded stating that the Council encourages that                
 there be state and federal cooperation involving user groups and              
 co-management and, by this, we hope to improve fish and game                  
 management in the state as a whole.                                           
 Number 880                                                                    
 DICK BISHOP, Executive Director, Alaska Outdoor Council, testified            
 in support of HB 296 and the proposed committee substitute stating            
 that he sees nothing in the bill that prohibits cooperation between           
 the state and federal government either with respect to the                   
 Department of Fish and Game or with other entities.  What it does             
 do is make it very clear that the premise that fish and game                  
 management should be undertaken in the state should be consistent             
 with the responsibilities and authorities of the state.  He felt              
 the one liner, "good fences make good neighbors" applies here.                
 MR. BISHOP further stated that unless it is clear what the laws               
 are, it is very difficult for people to work effectively within               
 them.  It is extremely important for the legislature to have taken            
 this initiative in asserting state management authority for a                 
 number of reasons.  The federal government will assume authority              
 unless challenged.  He said, "I think they need to be challenged              
 and this is an important strategy in doing that.  If they do not              
 like it, let them take it to court."                                          
 Number 1060                                                                   
 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN assigned HB 296 and the committee substitute to             
 the subcommittee.  He requested that Representative Con Bunde come            
 forward and introduce HB 329.                                                 
 HB 329 - RESTITUTION FOR CERTAIN GAME VIOLATIONS                            
 Number 1096                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE CON BUNDE said HB 329 is an Act providing for                  
 restitution to the state for the unlawful taking of game.                     
 "Penalties for violating wildlife protection laws vary with the               
 crime and the state.  The most common crime classification for                
 wildlife violations in all states is the criminal misdemeanor.  For           
 misdemeanor, states generally give judges discretion in choosing              
 the amount of the fine, length of jail term, or both.  In Alaska,             
 persons convicted of wildlife violations are guilty of a                      
 misdemeanor.  The penalty is jail for up to a year and a fine of up           
 to $5,000 (AS 16.05.925 (a)).                                                 
 "In addition to criminal penalties, some states have civil                    
 liability provisions of some kind.  About half the state                      
 legislatures have assessed the value of wildlife for civil                    
 liability purposes and list damages which may be sought as part of            
 a civil penalty.  Some states require the violator to pay, as a               
 condition of sentencing, restitution to the state for each animal             
 take.  Alaska is one of only 12 states which does not have                    
 restitution provisions for wildlife violations in statute.  HB 329            
 provides a schedule of restitution for wildlife violators to repay            
 as a condition of sentencing.                                                 
 "Alaskans are losing valuable wildlife to poachers.  Each piece of            
 game that is illegally taken from our state is an economic loss               
 that affects both our hunting and tourism industries.  HB 329 will            
 hold those illegal takers of game accountable for the value of                
 their lake.  Poachers will now have to pay restitution, as well as,           
 the penalties already in statute."                                            
 Number 1246                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN related a first hand experience and requested             
 to be included as a co-sponsor.  He encouraged the committee to               
 expedite the process and move the bill out of committee.                      
 Number 1298                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE DAVIES asked if the purpose of the legislation was             
 to make a mandatory fine.                                                     
 REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE explained that it is a civil penalty for the             
 loss of that state property.                                                  
 REPRESENTATIVE DAVIES stated that the prevailing penalty exceeds              
 any of these, except if there were multiple cases, so the judge               
 could fine up to that amount already.   So, the argument from                 
 Representative Ogan's point of view is that while judges could do             
 that, they don't do that, and so the purpose of this bill would be            
 to set a floor on the penalties?                                              
 Number 1330                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE responded in the affirmative stating that many           
 first time offenders have pretty small fines and are liable for up            
 to $5,000.                                                                    
 REPRESENTATIVE DAVIES presumed that the fines and the restitutions            
 would be deposited in the general fund.                                       
 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN stated that it would be a nondedicated fund.                
 REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE said that is correct.  It is a loss to the               
 Number 1387                                                                   
 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN discussed with Representative Bunde whether the             
 money going into the general fund would be lost rather than going             
 to a dedicated area that would actually ensure the restoration of             
 those diminished resources.                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE replied that these are resources that are                
 valued to the state, in general, and not just to the Department of            
 Fish and Game.  He said that representatives were here from the               
 Department of Fish and Game.                                                  
 Number 1457                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE NICHOLIA said she wanted to hear the full testimony            
 from the Department of Fish and Game.                                         
 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN moved that HB 329 move from the House Resources           
 Committee with individual recommendations.  There was an objection,           
 so a roll call vote was taken.  Representatives Ogan, Kott, Green             
 and Williams voted in favor of moving the bill.  Representatives              
 Davies and Nicholia voted against moving the bill.  So HB 329 moved           
 from The House Resources Committee.                                           
 Number 1532                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE NICHOLIA asked for the fiscal note on the bill.                
 REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE said the fiscal note was zero and that he                
 would make a copy available to the committee.                                 
 There being no further business to come before the House Resources            
 Committee, Chairman Green adjourned the meeting at 10:07 a.m.                 

Document Name Date/Time Subjects