Legislature(1995 - 1996)

01/30/1995 08:02 AM RES

Audio Topic
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
               HOUSE RESOURCES STANDING COMMITTEE                              
                        January 30, 1995                                       
                           8:02 a.m.                                           
 MEMBERS PRESENT                                                               
 Representative Joe Green, Co-Chairman                                         
 Representative Bill Williams, Co-Chairman                                     
 Representative Scott Ogan, Vice Chairman                                      
 Representative Alan Austerman                                                 
 Representative Ramona Barnes                                                  
 Representative Pete Kott                                                      
 Representative Irene Nicholia                                                 
 MEMBERS ABSENT                                                                
 Representative John Davies                                                    
 Representative Eileen MacLean                                                 
 COMMITTEE CALENDAR                                                            
 Overview by the Alaska Department of Fish and Game (ADF&G)                    
 HJR 13Endorsing in principle, legislation authorizing oil and                
 gas leasing, exploration, and development on the coastal                      
 plain within the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge,                             
 provided the legislation does not contain a provision                         
 decreasing this state's royalty.                                              
 CSHJR 13 (O&G) PASSED OUT OF COMMITTEE                                      
 WITNESS REGISTER                                                              
 KEVIN BROOKS, Director                                                        
 Division of Administrative Services                                           
 Alaska Department of Fish & Game                                              
 P.O. Box 25526                                                                
 Juneau, AK   99811                                                            
 Phone:  465-4120                                                              
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Provided an overview of the division and                 
                      answered questions                                       
 FRANK RUE, Acting Commissioner                                                
 Alaska Department of Fish & Game                                              
 P.O. Box 25526                                                                
 Juneau, AK   99811                                                            
 Phone:  465-4100                                                              
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Provided an overview of the department and               
          answered questions                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE MIKE NAVARRE                                                   
 Alaska State Legislature                                                      
 State Capitol, Room 521                                                       
 Juneau, AK   99801                                                            
 Phone:  465-3779                                                              
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Prime Sponsor HJR 13                                     
 REPRESENTATIVE NORMAN ROKEBERG, Chairman                                      
 Oil and Gas Committee                                                         
 Alaska State Legislature                                                      
 State Capitol, Room 110                                                       
 Juneau, AK   99801                                                            
 Phone:  465-4968                                                              
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Answered questions on HJR 13                             
 DAVID VAN DEN BERG, Representative                                            
 Northern Alaska Environmental Center                                          
 218 Driveway Street                                                           
 Fairbanks, AK   99701                                                         
 Phone:  452-5821                                                              
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Opposed HJR 13                                           
 SARA HANNAN, Representative                                                   
 Alaska Environmental Lobby                                                    
 P.O. Box 22151                                                                
 Juneau, Alaska    99802                                                       
 Phone:  463-3366                                                              
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Opposed HJR 13                                           
 BEVERLY WARD, Representative                                                  
 ARCO Alaska                                                                   
 134 N. Franklin                                                               
 Juneau, AK   99801                                                            
 Phone:  586-3680                                                              
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Supported HJR 13                                         
 GEORGE YASKA, Director of Wildlife                                            
 Tanana Chiefs Conference                                                      
 122 First Avenue                                                              
 Fairbanks, AK   99701                                                         
 Phone:  452-8257                                                              
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Opposed HJR 13                                           
 ROBERT BOSWORTH, Director                                                     
 Division of Subsistence                                                       
 Alaska Department of Fish & Game                                              
 P.O. Box 25526                                                                
 Juneau, AK   99802                                                            
 Phone:  465-4147                                                              
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Provided information on the division and                 
                  answered questions                                           
 JEFF KOENINGS, Director                                                       
 Division of Commercial Fisheries Management and Development                   
 Alaska Department of Fish & Game                                              
 P.O. Box 25526                                                                
 Juneau, AK   99802                                                            
 Phone:  465-4210                                                              
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Provided information on the division and                 
                  answered questions                                           
 WAYNE REGELIN, Acting Director                                                
 Division of Wildlife Conservation                                             
 Alaska Department of Fish & Game                                              
 P.O. Box 25526                                                                
 Juneau, AK   99802                                                            
 Phone:  465-4190                                                              
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Provided information on the division and                 
              answered questions                                               
 PREVIOUS ACTION                                                               
 BILL:  HJR 13                                                               
 SHORT TITLE: ENDORSING ANWR LEASING                                           
 SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) NAVARRE, Rokeberg, Grussendorf,                 
 Brown, Davies, Kubina, MacLean, Green, G.Davis                                
 JRN-DATE     JRN-PG               ACTION                                      
 01/16/95        19    (H)   READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)                 
 01/16/95        19    (H)   O&G, RES, FIN                                     
 01/18/95        74    (H)   COSPONSOR(S): DAVIES                              
 01/19/95        87    (H)   COSPONSOR(S): KUBINA                              
 01/19/95        87    (H)   COSPONSOR(S): MACLEAN                             
 01/24/95              (H)   O&G AT 10:00 AM CAPITOL 124                       
 01/25/95       127    (H)   O&G RPT  CS(O&G) NEW TITLE 5DP 1NR                
 01/25/95       127    (H)   DP: BRICE, WILLIAMS, G.DAVIS, B.DAVIS             
 01/25/95       127    (H)   DP: ROKEBERG                                      
 01/25/95       127    (H)   NR: FINKELSTEIN                                   
 01/25/95       127    (H)   -ZERO FISCAL NOTE (DNR) 1/25/95                   
 01/25/95       127    (H)   REFERRED TO RES                                   
 01/25/95       135    (H)   COSPONSOR(S): GREEN                               
 01/26/95       147    (H)   COSPONSOR(S): G.DAVIS                             
 01/30/95              (H)   RES AT 08:00 AM CAPITOL 124                       
 ACTION NARRATIVE                                                              
 TAPE 95-5, SIDE A                                                             
 Number 000                                                                    
 The House Resources Committee was called to order by Co-Chairman              
 Joe Green at 8:02 a.m.  Members present at the call to order were             
 Representatives Green, Austerman, Kott and Ogan.  Members absent              
 were Representatives Williams, Barnes, Davies, MacLean and                    
 CO-CHAIRMAN JOE GREEN announced since there was not a quorum                  
 present, the order of business would be switched.                             
 Overview by the Alaska Department of Fish and Game                          
 stated the division provides accounting, budget, personnel,                   
 payroll, procurement, etc. and helps other divisions of the                   
 department attain their missions.                                             
 MR. BROOKS commented on the commissioner's office.  He said the               
 commissioner of ADF&G is involved in numerous committees including            
 the Exxon Valdez trustees, the North Pacific Marine Fisheries, the            
 Pacific Salmon Commission, and a variety of international, internal           
 and external fishery related issues as well as wildlife issues.  He           
 noted it is critical that the commissioner set management policy              
 direction for the entire department.                                          
 MR. BROOKS explained ADF&G is one of the last departments to still            
 have an acting commissioner.  He said the board process is                    
 currently ongoing to search for a new commissioner.  Names will be            
 submitted to the Governor by the third week of February.  He stated           
 the boards are now reviewing applicant resumes, there will be an              
 interview process around mid-February and the final list will be              
 forwarded to the Governor.  He pointed out that once a commissioner           
 is named, it will be easier for the department to move forward in             
 a more definitive manner.                                                     
 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN felt since there are new members on the House               
 Resources Committee, the process of naming the ADF&G commissioner             
 should be explained since the process is somewhat different than              
 other departments.                                                            
 Number 080                                                                    
 FRANK RUE, ACTING COMMISSIONER, ADF&G, said the process to select             
 the commissioner of ADF&G involves the joint boards of fisheries              
 and game reviewing applicants and then forwarding a list of names             
 to the Governor.  The Governor then selects a permanent                       
 commissioner.  He hoped that process would be complete by the end             
 of February.                                                                  
 REPRESENTATIVE ALAN AUSTERMAN asked if that is the normal process             
 used every four years.                                                        
 MR. RUE replied it is the normal process set up by statute.                   
 MR. RUE explained that he would give a general overview of the                
 department and then have each of the directors give short overviews           
 of their division.  He said when ADF&G is thought of, one should              
 think of people because what the department does is benefit people.           
 ADF&G manages fish and wildlife for people.  If people were not               
 using fish and wildlife, a department would not be necessary.  He             
 noted the state has a large economy based on fish and wildlife,               
 subsistence use, commercial fisheries, recreational fisheries,                
 tourism, and many other human uses of fish and wildlife.  The ADF&G           
 is integral to managing those resources for people's benefit and              
 MR. RUE stated the concept of what ADF&G does is fairly simple.               
 First, the department counts what is out there and inventories the            
 resources.  Once it is determined what is out there and what is               
 available, the department gives the information to the boards of              
 fisheries and game and they then make allocation decisions.  The              
 department then does in-season management and manages according to            
 the management plans and regulations passed by the boards.  He                
 explained the third responsibility of the department is to maintain           
 Number 128                                                                    
 MR. RUE said the department is fairly decentralized, with offices             
 located throughout the state.  This tends to get the managers                 
 closer to the people and resources, enabling them to better                   
 understand people's needs and resource uses.  He stated currently             
 there are six division directors and added that a couple of years             
 ago there were nine.  He noted the department has been contracting            
 as a result of general fund dollars declining.  The department has            
 tried to become more efficient by combining divisions.                        
 MR. RUE told committee members the department has boards of                   
 fisheries and game and another entity within the department which             
 is somewhat separate, the commercial fisheries entry commission.              
 He said there are several issues facing the department.  One of the           
 basic issues is the department has to keep doing the job in the               
 face of declining revenue.  He noted there will be some things                
 coming over the horizon which will be complicating the department's           
 job of managing the state's fisheries.  He said the first issue is            
 the Endangered Species Act and he mentioned the difficulties they             
 are having in the Lower 48 with salmon in the Northwest which can             
 affect Alaska's fisheries.  Another issue is the Pacific Salmon               
 MR. RUE stressed there are also opportunities facing the                      
 department.  The first is developing new fisheries, including the             
 sea urchin fishery.  He felt there are also opportunities to                  
 improve the state's shellfish management and provide additional               
 opportunities for people.                                                     
 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN noted for the record that Co-Chairman WILLIAMS              
 had joined the committee and a quorum was present.  He said since             
 a quorum was now present, he would like to hear the resolution on             
 the committee calendar.  After hearing the resolution, the                    
 committee would then continue with the ADF&G overview.                        
 HRES - 01/30/95                                                               
 Number 210                                                                    
 HJR 13 - ENDORSING ANWR LEASING                                             
 is something which he and many Alaskans have been interested in for           
 a very long time.  He said at no time in the state's history, and             
 probably never again, will the state have such a powerful                     
 contingent at the federal level as the state does now and the                 
 opportunity for having this legislation pushed through at the                 
 national level is as good as it has ever been.                                
 REPRESENTATIVE NAVARRE stated the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge             
 (ANWR) holds the highest potential in the United States and the               
 entire North American continent for commercially producible oil               
 discovery.  He said in terms of potential, it is almost a sure                
 thing in the oil industry.  He noted there was a one in five chance           
 and that has been upgraded even more.                                         
 REPRESENTATIVE NAVARRE pointed out that oil is being imported for             
 more than half of the oil use in the United States, the trade                 
 deficit continues to grow, domestic oil production is declining and           
 at the national level, the economy, even though it is improving,              
 could use the type of boost that the entire 50 states would get               
 from the type of development that would take place in ANWR, if                
 there were commercial discoveries available.                                  
 REPRESENTATIVE NAVARRE said Alaska has proven in all of its oil               
 production, the ability to execute production in an environmentally           
 sound way.  He pointed out that oil production on the North Slope,            
 is state of the art production.  He stressed that combined with the           
 advances in directional drilling and the fact that most of the                
 exploration wells would be built off ice pads, and ice roads would            
 be used in the middle of winter, the impact would be very small.              
 In addition, after the exploration wells delineate the field, there           
 will be the ability to map out the easiest way to put production              
 wells in place, assuring the smallest minimal impact to the                   
 environment.  He felt a minimal impact will bode well at the                  
 national level, that the development of ANWR can be done right, and           
 there is the ability to convince the U.S. Congress and the people             
 of the United States of that fact.                                            
 REPRESENTATIVE NAVARRE noted the development of ANWR, according to            
 several statewide polls, is popular with the vast majority of                 
 Alaskans.  He urged committee members to pass HJR 13.                         
 Number 280                                                                    
 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN mentioned that HJR 13 is a bipartisan resolution            
 and pointed out that both sides of the majorities are in favor of             
 the resolution.  He urged committee members to look at the two maps           
 contained in committee member folders.  He said there is a                    
 consistent misunderstanding in the public arena and some of the               
 legislative offices as to the size of the area being discussed.  He           
 explained the area being discussed is the 1002 area, which is a               
 very small amount of the total ANWR.  He stated this proposal is to           
 merely allow the industry to look at what might be there and                  
 reiterated there is a great potential for discovery.                          
 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN said the biggest question confronting the                   
 industry is the fact there have been several wells drilled in the             
 perimeter around ANWR that have found hydrocarbons, but not in                
 economic quantities.  He felt the major concern is whether or not             
 there is enough oil there worth fighting about.  He stressed there            
 is a need to determine whether or not oil is present and if there             
 is, what is going to be best for both the state and the nation.  He           
 pointed out to committee members that there are a couple of                   
 Congressional white papers in their packets, as well as newspaper             
 clippings and letters of support.                                             
 Number 315                                                                    
 REPRESENTATIVE PETE KOTT made a MOTION to MOVE CSHJR 13 (O&G) out             
 of committee with individual recommendations.                                 
 REPRESENTATIVE IRENE NICHOLIA clarified the area being discussed is           
 very small.                                                                   
 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN responded that is correct.                                  
 REPRESENTATIVE NAVARRE said the 1002 area was set aside originally            
 by Congress to enable them to go back and take another look at the            
 area and determine what the disposition of that land should be.               
 REPRESENTATIVE KOTT WITHDREW his MOTION due to the fact that                  
 several people were present to testify on the resolution.                     
 REPRESENTATIVE NICHOLIA asked if there were any members present               
 from the Oil and Gas Committee.  She wondered why the reference to            
 porcupine caribou was taken out of the original resolution.                   
 Number 340                                                                    
 REPRESENTATIVE NORMAN ROKEBERG responded the committee substitute             
 was a total redraft.  The specific references to the porcupine                
 caribou herds were removed because it was the feeling of the                  
 committee that the elimination of that reference would help the               
 delegation in Washington move the legislation through Congress.  He           
 reminded everyone HJR 13 is to assist the state's Congressional               
 REPRESENTATIVE NICHOLIA felt the President would feel better about            
 a resolution containing language which recognizes animals important           
 to the people who live in the area, as well as any Canadians who              
 might also have an interest.                                                  
 REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG replied there is no denying the importance            
 of the porcupine caribou herd.  He said the intent of the                     
 resolution is to assist the state's Congressional delegation, not             
 throw up red flags and signals which may generate some negativity.            
 REPRESENTATIVE NICHOLIA clarified the intent is to barrel the                 
 resolution through at all costs and not protect the people or the             
 caribou herd.                                                                 
 REPRESENTATIVE BILL WILLIAMS noted that the chairman of the Oil and           
 Gas Committee kept in close contact with Alaska's Congressional               
 delegation and asked for their assistance.  He said the committee             
 felt the last FURTHER RESOLVED would address Representative                   
 Nicholia's concern.  He added that Representative MacLean had                 
 indicated that there were safeguards in place with the borough in             
 regard to the issue.                                                          
 Number 380                                                                    
 REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG stated the wildlife director of the North             
 Slope Borough testified at the Oil and Gas Committee hearings and             
 spoke specifically about the wildlife and other areas of                      
 environmental concerns on the North Slope.  He said both the mayor            
 and the head of the wildlife protection portion of the borough                
 supported the committee substitute.  He pointed out there are three           
 references within the committee substitute to acting in an                    
 environmentally sound manner in terms of any development and                  
 further exploration.  The Oil and Gas Committee felt that was                 
 adequate for the purposes of the resolution.                                  
 REPRESENTATIVE NAVARRE noted the Oil and Gas committee also felt              
 that the value of the porcupine caribou herd had already been                 
 recognized through a number of studies conducted.  He felt that               
 whether or not there was a line in the resolution, the caribou                
 would be recognized and identified as something very important and            
 something that will be addressed in any plan to explore or develop            
 ANWR.  He noted that the exploration stage would be done in the               
 middle of winter, mostly off of ice pads and roads, and the impact            
 would be very minimal.  He explained it would first be determined             
 whether or not there is commercially developable oil there and then           
 it would be determined how best to lay out the production plans so            
 there is minimal impact to what is recognized by Congress and                 
 others as something very important to the people and environment on           
 the North Slope.                                                              
 REPRESENTATIVE SCOTT OGAN added that when the state was looking at            
 developing Prudhoe Bay, there were legitimate concerns about the              
 effect of that development on the caribou herds.  Now, the success            
 of that area can be recognized.  He said the caribou herd there has           
 increased sixfold since that development.  He noted the state now             
 has a track record for oil development on the North Slope and felt            
 the oil companies have been very conscientious about environmental            
 protection.  He stressed some of the environmental technology                 
 developed on the North Slope has been exported to other areas of              
 the world.                                                                    
 REPRESENTATIVE NICHOLIA stressed there is always another side to              
 the story, especially from the people who live there.  She has                
 talked to people living in the area and they have noticed a change.           
 Number 440                                                                    
 CENTER (NAEC), testified via teleconference, and stated NAEC                  
 opposes HJR 13.  He said it was refreshing to see the cooperation             
 between the various legislators on this issue and he understands              
 the political necessity for elected individuals to support oil                
 companies, even in the most sensitive areas in Alaska.  He stated             
 he also understands the economic realities facing the state.                  
 MR. VAN DEN BERG wondered why this resolution is being considered,            
 particularly as currently worded.  He felt it was within the power            
 of the legislature to stipulate things at the outset which would              
 benefit the state most.  He noted that conspicuously absent in the            
 resolution is the mentioning of a 90/10 royalty split for the                 
 state.  He felt a similar resolution directed at ARCO Alaska                  
 regarding (indiscernible) field would yield a better return for the           
 MR. VAN DEN BERG said while the Coastal Plain is only eight percent           
 of the total ANWR, that Coastal Plain is the most biologically                
 productive area in the entire ANWR.  The Coastal Plain is the                 
 destination of polar bears, migrating porcupine caribou herd,                 
 waterfowl and (indiscernible) from all over the world.  He stressed           
 the estimated 5,000 -7,000 acre footprint in the resolution is not            
 a postage stamp but a potential web of industrial facilities which            
 will crisscross and dissect the Coastal Plain, interrupting animal            
 (indiscernible) coastal plain.                                                
 MR. VAN DEN BERG reminded committee members that in regard to                 
 Prudhoe Bay, while the footprint is far less than the overall                 
 industrial development there, it spans some 580 square miles.  He             
 said if the results from Prudhoe Bay prove anything, it proves                
 those things about Prudhoe Bay only.  The l002 area is a totally              
 different area because of its proximity to the mountains, because             
 of the size of the herd that goes there, and because there are musk           
 oxen populations living there throughout the year.  He felt the               
 lessons from Prudhoe Bay are only guidelines, not a guarantee of              
 Number 507                                                                    
 MR. VAN DEN BERG said on the one hand the committee is pleading to            
 open the Coastal Plain, yet on the other hand the committee is                
 (indiscernible) the export ban.  He felt of the two issues, the               
 export ban has a better chance of being lifted.  That would mean if           
 oil is found and produced on the Coastal Plain, it would be                   
 exported to the highest bidder which would probably be overseas.              
 He said there is language in the resolution which he recommends be            
 Number 530                                                                    
 AEL represents over 9,000 Alaskans.  She stated the ANWR was set              
 aside originally in 1969 partly because of its unique biological              
 habitat.  References to the science which has developed in the past           
 twenty years has let us know that what was known in 1969 is a very            
 limited scope of the science available today.  She said populations           
 of caribou are higher in total count and part of that has to do               
 with the fact that caribou are cyclical animals, their populations            
 vary, and it is not known if those are 20 year cycles, 50 year                
 cycles, 100 year cycles or longer.  Therefore, extrapolating from             
 a small window of science and saying that today caribou populations           
 are much higher than they were 20 years ago does not give the                 
 complete conclusion about the health of the population.                       
 MS. HANNAN stated the ANWR Coastal Plain is a small percentage of             
 the entire North Coastal Plain of Alaska.  Less than eight percent            
 of the Coastal Plain of the Arctic Coast is set aside from                    
 development of oil.  Ninety percent of Alaska's Coastal Plain is              
 currently open and available for exploration and drilling.  She               
 said a small area, the 1002 area in ANWR, is being debated.  The              
 debate has raged because of the area's uniqueness not because oil             
 is not present.  She stressed the reason the debate is ongoing is             
 because everyone believes there is oil there.  She pointed out that           
 the most optimistic predictions say there might be 3.2 billion                
 barrels of recoverable oil.  She noted that amount is only one-               
 third of the energy consumed in the U.S. on an annual basis.                  
 MS. HANNAN felt opening up the ANWR for oil exploration is not                
 going to change the country's pattern of consumption and it is not            
 going to stabilize the economy of Alaska.  The potential for                  
 biologic disaster is present there.  She said perception is a                 
 substantial part of reality.  She stated the original version of              
 HJR 13 acknowledged that the strictest standards in environmental             
 quality could be protected by technology available today and urged            
 the use of that technology.  The Oil and Gas Committee eliminated             
 that language.  She felt if the committee will not articulate in              
 the resolution that they are willing to adhere to the strictest               
 standards and best technology available, why do they think                    
 companies would do it.                                                        
 MS. HANNAN said the original version of HJR 13 acknowledged that              
 for centuries the Gwich'in people have been dependent on a                    
 population herd which limited science is available on and                     
 encouraged Congress to protect the Gwich'in people's use of it.               
 The Oil and Gas Committee eliminated that language.  She stated               
 perception is nine-tenths of reality.  By eliminating that                    
 language, the committee is not acknowledging those people have                
 concerns and their concerns will be listened to.  She urged                   
 committee members not to pass the original version of HJR 13 nor              
 the committee substitute.                                                     
 Number 651                                                                    
 supports CSHJR 13 (O&G).  She said ARCO has been an operator of the           
 Prudhoe Bay and Kuparuk oil fields since their initiation.  Their             
 experience in operating Arctic oil fields has given them a thorough           
 understanding of the local environmental requirements and has                 
 convinced them that the Coastal Plain can be explored and developed           
 without causing harm to the health and viability of the Refuge                
 MS. WARD pointed out that ARCO's technologies have advanced                   
 significantly since they pioneered the design and operation of oil            
 development in the Arctic.  Using today's technology, ARCO's                  
 presence is compatible with local fish, wildlife, and their                   
 habitats.  She said the existence of productive and abundant                  
 populations of birds, caribou, and fish throughout all North Slope            
 oil fields is evidence of ARCO's ability to be good neighbors with            
 all current land users.                                                       
 MS. WARD stressed that ARCO envisions technologies of the future              
 being even more advanced, further reducing their footprint, while             
 maximizing the benefits of continued resource development to the              
 state, the state's citizens, and to the nation.  These benefits               
 range from the creation of exploration and development jobs for               
 Alaskans, to additional state tax revenues, to manufacturing jobs             
 in other states and national security issues.  She pointed out that           
 opening ANWR will benefit not only Alaska, but the entire U.S.                
 ARCO believes it is time to move forward with exploring the most              
 potentially productive area in Alaska.  She said ARCO supports and            
 encourages the committee to pass CSHJR 13 (O&G).                              
 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN said there has been concern expressed about               
 verbiage in the original resolution being eliminated regarding the            
 provision of strict standards for protection of land, water, and              
 wildlife resources.  He wondered who ARCO would be accountable to             
 in regard to making environmental impact studies and the oversight            
 TAPE 95-5, SIDE B                                                             
 Number 000                                                                    
 MS. WARD responded there will not be any less of a standard at ANWR           
 than there is at Prudhoe Bay.  She said ARCO has all of the federal           
 and state laws to comply with and with all that ARCO has learned,             
 they expect their imprint in ANWR to be much smaller.  She noted              
 she would be happy to provide a list of all the different laws and            
 agencies which ARCO would deal with.                                          
 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN wondered if the specific verbiage is left out,            
 would there be any less oversight by any agencies.                            
 MS. WARD said leaving the statement out of the resolution does not            
 change any law or regulation but rather, it is a statement of                 
 intent by this legislature.                                                   
 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN noted ARCO is being referred to in connection               
 with ANWR and he reminded everyone that ANWR would be opened to the           
 industry, not a particular company.                                           
 REPRESENTATIVE AUSTERMAN wondered if the 90 percent mentioned in              
 the original version is an automatic given.                                   
 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN said yes.  He stated that was part of the                   
 original Alaska Statehood Act.  He pointed out, however, the                  
 federal government is now trying to renege, saying they want to do            
 something less than 90/10.  If the Statehood Act is followed, it              
 would be a 90/10 split in favor of the state not the federal                  
 REPRESENTATIVE AUSTERMAN wondered why the 90 percent verbiage was             
 removed from the original resolution.                                         
 REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG responded the removal of the reference to             
 the royalty split was a result of a request from the Congressional            
 delegation in Washington.  Both Congressman Young and the offices             
 of Senators Murkowski and Stevens indicated that reference to that            
 language would not be helpful because it is a controversial aspect.           
 He said there has been discussion among committee members and                 
 testimony received recommending that the 90/10 royalty issue be               
 taken up under a separate resolution to avoid clouding the issue.             
 Number 059                                                                    
 testified via teleconference and stated TCC is opposed to HJR 13              
 and the committee substitute.  He said the reason for their                   
 opposition is due to their concern about the safety and                       
 productivity of the porcupine caribou herd.  He noted there are no            
 references to the porcupine caribou herd in the committee                     
 substitute.  The closest language he could find referring to the              
 porcupine caribou herd was "environmental safeguards" and he felt             
 that language was not strong enough.                                          
 MR. YASKA told committee members that the porcupine caribou herd              
 numbers between 150,000 and 180,000 caribou.   The caribou calve              
 within the 1002 area of ANWR and calve principally within the same            
 area where the oil will probably be found.  He pointed out that the           
 National Biological Service has been conducting research for eight            
 years and their field report will be completed in June.  An early             
 draft of the report indicates a potential significant negative                
 impact to the herd.  He stressed the people in the area depend                
 heavily on the porcupine caribou herd.  He indicated that is the              
 reason TCC opposes CSHJR 13 (O&G) and HJR 13.                                 
 REPRESENTATIVE RAMONA BARNES clarified the caribou herd on the                
 North Slope has increased since Prudhoe Bay, especially those                 
 caribou that wander along the pipeline.                                       
 MR. YASKA responded that Representative Barnes was referring to the           
 Central Arctic caribou herd which exists near the Prudhoe Bay                 
 reserve.  He explained there are two principal differences between            
 the porcupine caribou herd and the Central Arctic caribou herd.               
 First, the Prudhoe Bay field does not lie in the calving area of              
 the Central Arctic herd and the caribou primarily seen at Prudhoe             
 Bay are male caribou.                                                         
 REPRESENTATIVE BARNES clarified a very small footprint will be used           
 for drilling purposes.                                                        
 MR. YASKA replied that is correct.  However, that footprint is the            
 same size as the core calving ground for the caribou herd.  He said           
 scientists have shown that the caribou would probably have to move            
 and all indications are that during calving, pre-calving, and post-           
 calving, caribou are very skittish and very leery of human                    
 activity.  He felt they would be especially leery of the heavy                
 industrial activity such as what would be found in ANWR for                   
 exploration and drilling.                                                     
 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN asked Mr. Yaska if he had visited the Kuparuk oil           
 MR. YASKA stated he had been at Prudhoe Bay, but not Kuparuk.                 
 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN suggested he try and be there during the                    
 migratory cycle.  He said while Prudhoe Bay does not lie within the           
 normal course of the calving cycle, the Kuparuk River does and he             
 felt it would be worthwhile to see the extent to which the industry           
 has gone to assist the caribou.  He noted the caribou in that area            
 are far from skittish and added that the caribou have the right of            
 way.  He stressed it is improper and subject to dismissal for                 
 anyone to harass caribou if they cross the roads.  He added that              
 when the caribou are calving, they are oblivious to anything around           
 Number 128                                                                    
 REPRESENTATIVE NICHOLIA asked Mr. Yaska if he had mentioned that              
 the caribou herd does not always take the same path when migrating.           
 She said it will not be known whether or not the caribou will be              
 going into the 1002 area because they change their route so often.            
 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN assured Representative Nicholia that fact had               
 been mentioned.                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE KOTT acknowledged the comments made by Ms. Hannan.             
 He felt many of her comments were very relevant.  He noted that she           
 has her constituency, and legislators have theirs.  He mentioned he           
 represents over 15,000 people in a very condensed area who are in             
 favor of opening ANWR.  He felt that was indicative of                        
 acknowledging that the oil companies in the past have been very               
 responsible in oil exploration and production.  If that were not              
 the case, he said he would probably have concerns about opening               
 ANWR and perhaps would not support the resolution.  He stressed he            
 has been in the area, understands what is going on there and                  
 therefore, supports the legislation.                                          
 REPRESENTATIVE KOTT made a MOTION to MOVE CSHJR 13 (O&G) out of               
 committee with accompanying zero fiscal note with INDIVIDUAL                  
 REPRESENTATIVE NICHOLIA OBJECTED.                                             
 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN asked for a roll call vote.  Voting in favor of             
 CSHJR 13 (O&G) were Representatives Kott, Austerman, Williams,                
 Ogan, Barnes, and Green.  Voting against the motion was                       
 Representative Nicholia.  The MOTION PASSED 6-1.                              
 Overview by the Alaska Department of Fish and Game (cont.)                  
 division is small with 40 employees.  He stated the division's                
 offices are located throughout the state and those offices provide            
 full coverage for the state.  He added the division is the                    
 subsistence research division.  The division provides information             
 to assist with policy decisions and provides information to the               
 boards of fisheries and game and to the public.                               
 MR. BOSWORTH stated the fundamental purpose of the division is to             
 illuminate the topic of subsistence with reliable and objective               
 information.  He explained that rural residents of Alaska harvest             
 an average of about 375 pounds of wild foods per person, per year.            
 He said that amount is higher for communities off the state's road            
 system.  About 60 percent of the harvest is fish, most of which is            
 salmon and the remainder is wildlife, including marine mammals.  He           
 said the total annual subsistence food harvest is about 44 million            
 pounds for rural areas, with another ten million pounds for urban             
 residents.  Applying a range of $3 to $5 per pound, the overall               
 replacement value of the harvest amounts to between $165 million              
 and $275 million annually, which is a substantial contribution to             
 the economy of Alaska.  He noted this is the type of data which the           
 division gathers and contributes to discussions on the topic.                 
 Number 227                                                                    
 MR. BOSWORTH stated that information about the subsistence use of             
 fish and game is obtained in two different ways.  The first method            
 uses the department's hunting and fishing permit systems.  Harvests           
 are tabulated for each hunting and fishing permit issued and                  
 returned to the department.  He said for most subsistence fisheries           
 and hunting activity, no permits are required.  Therefore, the                
 division also conducts systematic surveys from a random sample and            
 in some cases, a complete sample of hunting or fishing households             
 within a community.  He added that these surveys may cover other              
 subsistence activities other than strictly hunting and fishing such           
 as trapping, gathering berries, digging shellfish, etc.                       
 MR. BOSWORTH explained most of the department's subsistence harvest           
 information is obtained by the Division of Subsistence.  The                  
 division's staff has special training, expertise and experience in            
 conducting survey research in rural Alaska.  In some areas of the             
 state, the subsistence fishing permit process is managed by the               
 Division of Commercial Fisheries.  He said most subsistence                   
 fisheries are in-river fisheries and accurate assessment of                   
 subsistence can be vital for stock assessment.  In some cases,                
 subsistence information provides the only reliable stock escapement           
 index.  He stated in some areas, subsistence fishermen, who are               
 more numerous than the department's staff, regularly provide the              
 division with information on in-season run strength and timing,               
 which can have a direct bearing on the management of commercial and           
 sport fisheries in those areas.                                               
 MR. BOSWORTH said subsistence hunters also outnumber department               
 wildlife biologists.  Local knowledge about wildlife populations              
 regularly contribute to the department's management programs.  He             
 pointed out the boards of game and fisheries follow the state                 
 subsistence law in implementing and developing subsistence                    
 regulations.  He stated subsistence law contains very specific                
 requirements for the boards to make certain findings about                    
 subsistence and includes very specific requirements about the                 
 information which should be provided to the boards to help them               
 make those decisions.                                                         
 Number 278                                                                    
 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN wondered what sampling sizes are used and if they           
 are representative.                                                           
 MR. BOSWORTH replied the division does feel the information is                
 valid and reliable.  He said combining the results of a number of             
 different studies, taken over a number of years in a number of                
 different communities, makes it increasingly difficult to identify            
 the margin of error in the final outcome.  He stated within                   
 specific studies for particular communities, the division does                
 provide margins of error.                                                     
 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN questioned if subsistence hunters help the                  
 division know about or perhaps find and prosecute poachers.                   
 MR. BOSWORTH said the best opportunity the department has to know             
 what is going on in a local area is to have staff in the area.  The           
 department benefits greatly from having biologists living                     
 throughout Alaska and in many rural communities, who have developed           
 the kind of rapport it takes in those communities to understand               
 what is going on locally.  He stated in reply to Representative               
 Green's question, yes, that can happen and it happens best when               
 there is staff present in rural areas who are accepted in the                 
 communities and have lived there long enough to be privy to that              
 sort of information.                                                          
 Number 322                                                                    
 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN asked if the division surveys federal                     
 subsistence or state.                                                         
 MR. BOSWORTH said the division's budget is approximately one-half             
 federal money and one-half state money.  The federal money comes              
 from a variety of unstable sources and are the funds which allow              
 the division to survey communities who use or are located on                  
 federal lands.  The division considers them to be Alaskans and the            
 information gathered is relevant to Alaska's management of                    
 subsistence, regardless of the fact that the jurisdiction may be              
 REPRESENTATIVE BARNES recalled that three or four years ago, the              
 legislature combined the two divisions of Commercial Fisheries and            
 Fisheries Rehabilitation Enhancement and Development (FRED).  She             
 wondered why it took so long to accomplish that.                              
 MANAGEMENT AND DEVELOPMENT, ADF&G, replied the merger of the two              
 divisions has been completed.  Staffs have been combined to ensure            
 that resource management programs, as well as the fisheries                   
 development programs can go forward in a logical and consistent               
 manner.  He added the budgetary process of combining the divisions,           
 as well as the in the field process, has been completed.                      
 MR. KOENINGS stated the Division of Commercial Fisheries Management           
 and Development is responsible for the sustained yield management             
 of the state's commercial, subsistence and personal use fisheries;            
 the development of new fisheries; and the programmatic support for            
 the state's private sector mariculture and salmon ranching                    
 industries.  The division also plays a major role in the management           
 of fisheries in the federal 200-mile Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ),           
 in several international treaty negotiations such as in Southeast             
 Alaska and Yukon; and, more recently, in addressing concerns over             
 federal legislation affecting Alaska's fisheries such as the                  
 Endangered Species Act.                                                       
 MR. KOENINGS explained the divisional organization now represents             
 the completed merger between the old FRED and Commercial Fisheries            
 Divisions.  The present division is organized into a headquarters             
 office and four regions:  Southeastern, Central, Westward, and                
 Arctic-Yukon-Kuskokwim.  The division operates with nearly 300                
 full-time and 555 permanent part-time positions; and a proposed               
 fiscal year 1996 general fund budget of $30 million with an overall           
 budget of $42 million.  The fiscal year 1996 overall budget is $8             
 million less than the budget for the combined divisions in fiscal             
 year 1992.                                                                    
 Number 404                                                                    
 MR. KOENINGS said the direct and indirect economic benefits of the            
 commercial fishing industry is of major importance to the entire              
 state based on what information is available.  For example, the               
 seafood industry is the state's largest private employer both in              
 terms of income and employment with roughly 33,000 to 36,000 jobs.            
 He stated the seafood harvesters are small businessmen that account           
 for 8,000 to 12,000 full-time job equivalents.  Seventy-seven                 
 percent of these commercial fishing permit holders are Alaskan                
 residents.  He pointed out to committee members a new brochure on             
 the Alaska Seafood Industry which was developed by all segments of            
 the fishing community.                                                        
 MR. KOENINGS stated the cultural and economic value of the                    
 subsistence fishery is even harder to quantify, in direct economic            
 terms, than the commercial fisheries.  He said to many it is beyond           
 value, which is understandable.  He noted that recently,                      
 subsistence fishers have repeatedly said that their subsistence               
 lifestyle, a combination of fishing, hunting, berry picking, etc.             
 is fueled, to varying degrees, by their incomes from commercial               
 fishing.  He pointed out there is absolute value and real benefits            
 in having strong, well managed runs of fish to ensure that both the           
 subsistence users and commercial users are provided for.                      
 MR. KOENINGS stressed the state's fisheries resources appear to be            
 vibrant and healthy, although problem areas do exist, especially in           
 Western and Interior Alaska.  Last year, the commercial harvest of            
 196 million salmon was an all time record.  Yet, because of                   
 competition from high quality foreign farmed salmon, prices are               
 down and the economic value is declining.  He stated the department           
 is responding by managing, within biological constraints, so                  
 fishermen and processors can achieve the best product quality and             
 thus higher economic value.  He noted that examples for 1994                  
 include the harvest management of enhanced and wild pink salmon in            
 Prince William Sound, chum salmon in the Kuskokwim River, the                 
 herring fishery in the Togiak district, and pink salmon harvests in           
 Norton Sound.                                                                 
 MR. KOENINGS stated that in developing new fisheries, the division            
 has pioneered new cooperative efforts with private industry to                
 assess the health of the sea urchin population in the Ketchikan               
 area prior to a commercial fishery.  He said the project provides             
 for close cooperation between local divers and processors and is              
 funded entirely by private dollars and by the sea urchin resource             
 itself, not by the general fund.  If successful, the fishery could            
 be worth $30 million annually to Southeast fishermen and may become           
 the third largest fishery in state waters.  He pointed out that               
 reasonable and responsible development of the state's renewable               
 fishery resources will lead to increased numbers of jobs for                  
 Number 470                                                                    
 MR. KOENINGS said despite the general abundance of salmon, which              
 are now on the high end of their productive cycle, there are                  
 localized resource problems.  For example, the Chinook salmon in              
 the Mat-Su valley, the chum salmon in parts of Western and Interior           
 Alaska, Nushagak River coho salmon in Bristol Bay, and perhaps the            
 sockeye salmon of Chilkoot Lake.  He added that the herring                   
 populations in the Prince William Sound are in horrible shape and             
 are not fishable.                                                             
 MR. KOENINGS advised that the biggest challenge throughout the                
 state is the management of the state's shellfish resources.  He               
 said from Norton Sound in the north to Adak to the south, east to             
 Bristol Bay, Kodiak, Cook Inlet, and the Prince William Sound, the            
 crab populations are failing.  He stressed some of the most                   
 important crab fisheries are in the Bering Sea where state                    
 involvement in resource assessment, necessary for proper state                
 management, is minimal at best.  He stated that minimal effort                
 needs to change.                                                              
 REPRESENTATIVE BARNES wondered where Mr. Koenings got the                     
 information that 77 percent of the people who are employed in the             
 commercial fishing industry are Alaskans.                                     
 MR. KOENINGS responded the information came from a report by the              
 Institute of Social and Economic Research at the University of                
 REPRESENTATIVE BARNES suggested that he check with the Department             
 of Labor and use their statistics.  She felt those statistics would           
 be different.  She recalled that a great number of the limited                
 entry permits are owned by people who live in the Seattle/Tacoma              
 MR. KOENINGS said there are a number of Seattle area residents who            
 own Alaska limited entry permits.                                             
 MR. RUE added that Frank Homan from the Commercial Fisheries                  
 Limited Entry Commission could give an exact breakdown of the                 
 REPRESENTATIVE BARNES recalled that Mr. Koenings had mentioned the            
 management of fish for commercial and subsistence fisheries.  She             
 wondered what happened to those who are hook and line fishermen.              
 She asked if they are also entitled to some of the resources.                 
 MR. KOENINGS replied yes they are.  He said his division's                    
 responsibilities only include commercial, subsistence and personal            
 use fisheries.  The responsibility for managing the primary                   
 recreational fisheries belong to the sport fish division.                     
 REPRESENTATIVE BARNES felt there is a great conflict between hook             
 and line fishermen and commercial fisheries.  She disagreed when it           
 is said they are recreational fishermen.  She stated most of those            
 people do not catch those fish just for recreation, but rather do             
 it to feed their families, just like subsistence users.                       
 MR. RUE said in his opening remarks he tried to recognize the                 
 department's mission to do the management, science and research.              
 He felt the key is the role of the board of fisheries in allocating           
 the fish.                                                                     
 REPRESENTATIVE BARNES felt the board of fisheries does not do a               
 very good job.                                                                
 REPRESENTATIVE KOTT recalled a couple of years ago the legislature            
 appropriated $250,000 to conduct an impact study regarding salmon             
 in the Cook Inlet area.  He wondered what the status is of the                
 MR. KOENINGS responded that the panel involved with that study was            
 chaired by Rob Bosworth.                                                      
 MR. BOSWORTH stated the study was intended to address both sport              
 and commercial economics of the fisheries at the Kenai River.  The            
 study was contracted out to the Institute of Social and Economic              
 Research.  He explained the study is on schedule and on budget at             
 this time.  The sport and commercial surveys have been completed              
 and are now in the data analysis stage.  He said the department               
 does get quarterly reports on the progress of the study and he                
 would be happy to make them available.  He added that an interim              
 report is expected in April and a final report in August.  The                
 information will then be available for the board of fisheries when            
 they meet next fall.                                                          
 Number 610                                                                    
 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN wondered what steps are being taken to spread             
 the burden to all user groups including commercial fishermen in               
 regard to the decline in the king salmon runs, specifically in the            
 Susitna Drainage.                                                             
 MR. KOENINGS responded the allocation of harvestable surpluses of             
 fish is the purview of the board of fisheries.  He thought other              
 issues were also being looked at in Cook Inlet such as the sockeye            
 salmon issue.  He said the division is specifically looking into              
 where and how king salmon are caught to enable the division to                
 participate in any conservation actions, if necessary, to protect             
 those stocks.                                                                 
 Number 635                                                                    
 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN said there is a perception in his constituent             
 group that the burden is being bore by the sport fishermen.  He               
 asked Mr. Koenings to get him information on more specific steps              
 being taken.                                                                  
 MR. KOENINGS indicated the division is in the process of developing           
 a brief summary of what gear groups are involved when and if they             
 do intercept Chinook salmon and what ability is available in terms            
 of identifying where those fish are bound for.                                
 REPRESENTATIVE AUSTERMAN asked if bycatch in the Gulf of Alaska is            
 being addressed in connection with shellfish.                                 
 MR. KOENINGS thought that information is available and said he                
 would be happy to get it for Representative Austerman.                        
 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN wondered if those types of problems are being               
 created by fishermen within the state of Alaska, registered in the            
 state, as opposed to those who may be from out of state.                      
 MR. KOENINGS said the trawl fleet consists of a large number of               
 boats which are home ported in the Seattle area, but also includes            
 smaller boats which are home ported in Alaskan waters.  Therefore,            
 the crab bycatch issue is the responsibility of both parties.  He             
 stressed there is a considerable bycatch involved in the catches of           
 the large catcher/processors who operate both in the Gulf of Alaska           
 and in the Bering Sea.                                                        
 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN wondered if Mr. Koenings had total amounts and              
 MR. KOENINGS replied he has the information and would make it                 
 available to Representative Green.                                            
 CO-CHAIRMAN WILLIAMS said when the sea cucumber fishing in                    
 Southeast Alaska began, it was not managed properly but added that            
 changing the fishing time has helped.  At the beginning, many of              
 the sea cucumbers were being wasted because there was not enough              
 time to process.  He hoped the same thing would be done with the              
 sea urchin.  He felt when the time periods are staggered and spread           
 out, the out-of-state fishermen think hard about whether or not               
 they want to come to Southeast to fish.                                       
 TAPE 95-6, SIDE A                                                             
 Number 000                                                                    
 CO-CHAIRMAN WILLIAMS said in Ketchikan, there has been a lot of               
 discussion about the Cat Island fishery.  He stated during the last           
 fishery opening in that area, the quota was never reached and many            
 of the fishermen quit long before the end because there were not              
 any herring.  He wondered if the same thing is happening in the               
 Prince William Sound area.  He recalled when this question came up            
 last year, the commissioner indicated the herring fishery was the             
 best managed fishery.                                                         
 MR. KOENINGS stated the herring biomass is very strong in Alaska.             
 However, there are problem areas such as the Prince William Sound             
 area.  He said those problems are not attributable to the                     
 management practices, but rather there are extraneous environmental           
 and other affects in the Sound which hypothetically could be                  
 derived from the oil spill and various environmental ecological               
 changes going on.  These factors have also affected the pink salmon           
 resources there.  He noted the pink salmon have recovered but the             
 herring population has not recovered.  He felt that will happen in            
 a matter of time.                                                             
 Number 040                                                                    
 CO-CHAIRMAN WILLIAMS wondered about the Cat Island fisheries.                 
 MR. KOENINGS responded the Cat Island (indiscernible) fish will be            
 prosecuted in the same manner as it was last year.  Much has been             
 learned from the management changes which will be put in place this           
 year.  He felt the full quota will be harvested.                              
 CO-CHAIRMAN WILLIAMS clarified the biomass has not decreased in               
 that area.                                                                    
 MR. KOENINGS said the biomass is strong in that area.                         
 REPRESENTATIVE AUSTERMAN recalled that the majority of tanner                 
 fishing is closed in the Gulf of Alaska currently, yet at the same            
 point in time, the bycatch of the trawl fleet is ongoing without              
 any cap.                                                                      
 Number 060                                                                    
 ADF&G, said the division's job is to manage Alaska's wildlife and             
 to provide a wide range of uses for the public.  He explained that            
 the division has three basic programs.  The first is management               
 programs.  The division does numerous population surveys and                  
 censuses of populations, determines trends of populations and                 
 determines the sustained yield.  He stated this information is                
 provided to the board of game so they can set the seasons and bag             
 MR. REGELIN noted the second effort of the division is research.              
 The division spends much effort developing new techniques for                 
 wildlife management and collecting ecological information on                  
 species habitat relationships and predator/prey relationships.  He            
 said the third area in which the division is involved is public               
 service.  The division has a large hunter education program, a new            
 hunters' services program, a watchful wildlife program for the                
 nonconsumptive users and a general wildlife education program in              
 the schools called "Project Wild".                                            
 MR. REGELIN told committee members that the division has three                
 sources of funding.  Three percent of the division's funding is               
 from the general fund; 50 percent comes from federal aid which is             
 a tax on arms and ammunition; and 47 percent is from license fees             
 and tags which the hunters pay.  The division's total budget                  
 request for next year is $16 million.  He stated there are 165                
 employees in the division, including 130 who are permanent full-              
 time and 35 who are seasonal.                                                 
 MR. REGELIN stated there are several major issues facing the                  
 division currently.  The two most important issues are wolf                   
 management and the dual federal/state management.  He said overall            
 the wildlife populations in Alaska are healthy.  He added there are           
 just a couple of areas where there are some concerns.                         
 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN said he presumed one of the problem areas is the            
 Kenai River.                                                                  
 MR. REGELIN stated the Division of Wildlife Conservation does not             
 get involved in fishery issues.                                               
 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN asked Mr. Regelin to comment on the two problem             
 MR. REGELIN said the division has concerns in Unit 13.  He stated             
 it is not a matter of too few animals, but rather a tremendous                
 number of people who want to hunt there and a very confused dual              
 federal/state management system.  He noted the populations are as             
 high as what the division desires.  The problem is that adequate              
 resources cannot be provided there.  He added the moose population            
 there is high but has been very unproductive.  There has been no              
 recruitment and very few of the animals survive.                              
 MR. REGELIN explained the other problem is in the McGrath area.               
 The division is observing a decline in the moose population.  He              
 noted the area has experienced an extreme winter and a high                   
 predation level from wolves.                                                  
 REPRESENTATIVE BARNES asked where Unit 13 is located.                         
 MR. REGELIN responded Unit 13 is around Glennallen and the Copper             
 River Basin.  He said it is the hunting ground for Anchorage                  
 REPRESENTATIVE BARNES wondered how the moose population in the Mat-           
 Su borough along the railroad tracks is holding up this winter.               
 MR. REGELIN stated there has been a lot of snow there and there has           
 been quite a bit of highway kills.  He noted there has not been               
 nearly the problem with the railroad which was experienced in the             
 past.  He said the railroad is going to a great extent and working            
 with the division to reduce the kill along the railroad.                      
 Number 133                                                                    
 REPRESENTATIVE KOTT stated he had read an article about sprinkling            
 wolf urine along the side of roads to keep moose from crossing the            
 road.  He wondered if the department had ever experimented with a             
 process such as that.                                                         
 MR. REGELIN responded the work being referred to was done in                  
 Sweden.  He said the division has not tried that process.  However,           
 the division has tried to remove vegetation back away from the                
 roads and along the railroad.  He said the division has also tried            
 different kinds of reflectors to reflect headlights into the woods.           
 He stressed what works best is people slowing down on the road.               
 REPRESENTATIVE KOTT felt if a couple of volunteer wolves could be             
 found, it might be something to pursue.  He wondered if the                   
 division has ever considered going to a bounty system or somehow              
 encouraging the private sector to take part in wolf control.                  
 MR. REGELIN stated the division does work often with trappers by              
 teaching trapper education courses and encourages them to trap                
 wolves.  He said a bounty system would take legislation.  He noted            
 that approximately 1,000 wolves are legally harvested every winter            
 and a bounty would have to be paid on those also.  Therefore, with            
 a $100 bounty, $100,000 would be paid before the harvest is                   
 increased.  The division is not sure a bounty system would be cost            
 effective and feels it would probably be very unpopular.                      
 Number 172                                                                    
 REPRESENTATIVE BARNES clarified wolves are classified as big game             
 MR. REGELIN stated wolves are classified as both big game and fur             
 bear animals.                                                                 
 REPRESENTATIVE BARNES wondered if the classification of wolves is             
 changed, would that change the way they could be harvested.                   
 MR. REGELIN replied it really does not make any difference.                   
 Currently, under trapping licenses, the season begins in November             
 and goes late in the year with no limit.  He said the board of game           
 can set any season and bag limit desired for big game animals.  He            
 noted there is a very long season for hunting with a bag limit of             
 two in most places.                                                           
 REPRESENTATIVE BARNES asked if the division has ever thought about            
 dropping hay for moose in the winter.                                         
 MR. REGELIN responded currently the division is not dropping hay or           
 any other kinds of feed, but is working with private individuals to           
 go out on weekends in the Kenai and Mat-Su Valley to cut willow and           
 aspen trees away from the road to draw moose back.  He stressed it            
 becomes a big logistical problem to distribute feed to moose                  
 because they are not in large herds, but rather small groups.                 
 REPRESENTATIVE BARNES clarified that moose congregate in the path             
 of least resistance.                                                          
 MR. REGELIN said moose do congregate more and usually there are               
 groups of eight to ten moose but they are well scattered.                     
 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN asked what it would take to get an aerial wolf            
 hunt program going again.                                                     
 MR. REGELIN said it would take two actions.  First, the Governor              
 would want a policy allowing that type of program and second, the             
 program would have to be authorized by the board of game.                     
 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN clarified the legislature could not do                    
 MR. REGELIN replied the board of game provides the authorization.             
 Last year, the legislature did pass legislation on intensive                  
 management which provides much more direction to the board.  The              
 legislation provides that in certain areas where human use of                 
 wildlife is the primary use, if the populations are not providing             
 an adequate opportunity for hunters, before the board can reduce              
 seasons, the board is required to do intensive management.  That              
 intensive management could involve wolf control, predator                     
 management or habitat improvement.                                            
 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN recalled Mr. Regelin had stated three percent             
 of the division's funding comes from general funds and the                    
 division's budget request for this year is going to be $16 million.           
 He clarified that $16 million is three percent of the division's              
 MR. REGELIN stated that is incorrect.  The division's total budget            
 is $16 million and the general fund request is $667,000.                      
 There being no further business to come before the House Resources            
 Committee, Co-Chairman Green adjourned the meeting at 9:50 a.m.               

Document Name Date/Time Subjects