Legislature(1995 - 1996)
05/09/1996 02:07 PM House L&C
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
JOINT HOUSE AND SENATE LABOR & COMMERCE
STANDING COMMITTEE
May 9, 1996
2:07 p.m.
HOUSE MEMBERS PRESENT
Representative Pete Kott, Chair
Representative Norman Rokeberg, Vice Chair
Representative Brian Porter
Representative Jerry Sanders
Representative Beverly Masek
Representative Kim Elton
HOUSE MEMBERS ABSENT
Representative Gene Kubina
SENATE MEMBERS PRESENT
Senator Tim Kelly, Chair
Senator John Torgerson, Vice Chair
SENATE MEMBERS ABSENT
Senator Mike Miller
Senator Jim Duncan
Senator Judy Salo
OTHER HOUSE MEMBERS PRESENT
Representative Gail Phillips, Speaker
Representative Bill Williams
Representative Caren Robinson
OTHER SENATE MEMBERS PRESENT
Senator Loren Leman
Senator Robin Taylor
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
- MARINE HIGHWAY LABOR CONTRACTS; SERVICE DISRUPTION OF MAY 8
WITNESS REGISTER
GARY HAYDEN, Director
Marine Highway System
Department of Transportation & Public Facilities
3132 Channel Drive
Juneau, Alaska 99801-7898
Telephone: (907) 465-8827
POSITION STATEMENT: Presented an overview of the Marine Highway
System and the service disruption of May 8
JANET PARKER, Deputy Director
Division of Retirement & Benefits
Department of Administration
P.O. Box 110203
Juneau, alaska 99811-0203
Telephone: (907) 465-4470
POSITION STATEMENT: Explained PERS Retirement System
MIA DOYLE
Labor Relations Section
Department of Administration
P.O. Box 110220
Juneau, Alaska 99811-0220
Telephone: (907) 465-4404
POSITION STATEMENT: Explained audit completed by the Office
of Management and Budget
ACTION NARRATIVE
TAPE 96-44, SIDE A
Number 001
The Joint Meeting of the House and Senate Labor & Commerce Standing
Committees was called to order by Chairman Tim Kelly at 2:07 p.m.
Due to a tape machine malfunction, Chairman Kelly recessed the
meeting.
CHAIRMAN KELLY called the meeting back to order and noted that each
committee member had before them a copy of the Research Report,
Alaska Marine Highway System, Comparative Compensation Analysis
prepared by the Office of Management and Budget, dated October
1994. Chairman Kelly asked Gary Hayden to begin his statement.
Number 026
GARY HAYDEN, Director, Marine Transportation System, Department of
Transportation & Public Facilities, prefaced his statement by
saying the Alaska Marine Highway System, he and his staff would
like to cooperate fully with the committee. He noted that he has
a tendency to be somewhat factual and short and doesn't give long
explanations. He asked committee members not to misconstrue that
other than maybe a bit of cautiousness on his part, and invited
questions from the committee.
MR. HAYDEN: To begin, yesterday at approximately 12:40, the Port
Captain notified me that he had a problem with filling out the crew
on the Malaspina. The Malaspina was scheduled to leave Auke Bay at
11:45, so at that point it was delayed approximately one hour. The
Malaspina was scheduled to go from Auke Bay to Haines. It had 146
passengers on board, they had 81 vehicles and they had a crew of 47
people. At 11:30, the captain of the vessel called the port
captain and reported that five employees had just walked off the
vessel reporting that they were sick and it appeared to him that it
was a work walk-out. We proceeded to try to fill out the
complement of crew. In this particular instance, manning the ship
is dictated primarily by our Coast Guard license. On the
Malaspina, we are required to have 26 employees with lifeboat
certificates and in addition to that, our certificate requires that
there be a complement of other designated crewmen. And of those,
there are to be four able-bodied seamen, one chief engineer, two
assistant engineers and two oilers. At the time that the employees
became ill and left the vessel, we were short two able-bodied
seamen, one junior engineer and two oilers. We upgraded people
from the Stewards Department who could meet the requirements, who
had a card to be able-bodied seamen. So, we solved the two able-
bodied seamen requirement and brought the complement back up to
four. However, that left us short in the engineering in that we
had to find oilers. An oiler is an endorsement that's on the
employee's Z-Card that he gets from the Coast Guard saying that he
is qualified to act as an oiler or work in the oiler capacity. We
-- our dispatch group - there are three employees who work dispatch
- as it turned out this was just about the lunch hour, so we had to
track them down, put people to work and we found an oiler who had
just come in and applied for a job, so we hired one person right
off the street, took him out of class at Centennial Hall and drove
him to Auke Bay. The other oiler we contacted, found he was ready
to go to work lives in Haines, we may have contacted him about
12:45, almost 1:00. The person caught the next available flight
from Haines. We picked him up at the airport and drove him out to
the ship. Then we were still hunting for a junior engineer at that
point. We found one who could act as a relief on the Malaspina,
had previously worked on the Malaspina, and we dispatched that
person to the ship. In effect, within several hours we were able
to round up enough crew and the vessel left Auke Bay, heading
north, at approximately 3:40. So, we had almost a four hour delay
in the sailing of the vessel.
Number 074
MR. HAYDEN: At that point, we began trying -- our number 1 mission
at that point was to get the vessel underway, get the crew
complement going and then figure out what happened after that. So
after that, we began assembling an investigation. We asked -- one
of the first questions asked was: Was this related to legislative
action or the latest legislation inaction of the previous day? And
all indications were people were not saying that it was directly
related; however, it was very unusual that we had five employees
get off the vessel 15 minutes before sailing. Two of the employees
reported back pains; three of the employees report flu-like
symptoms. Two of the employees had been on the vessel since 10:30
- we had a crew change that day and the other three employees had
been on for about a day and they got on in Ketchikan the previous
day. We checked and the employees had filled out an unfit for duty
slip and turned it in to the purser. They followed the proper
procedure that they were to do on the walking off the vessel. We
have a procedure at Marine Highways that if a vessel is -- if an
employee is sick, they are to get an unfit for duty slip from a
doctor. I have not seen those at this point from these employees.
We'll be asking them to give us that. Because of the unusual
sequence of events and the significant delaying of the vessel, the
inconvenience to the public and just the circumstances surrounding
this, we chose yesterday afternoon to put the employees on leave
without pay, pending an investigation. We sent them a letter which
they should have received today and gave a copy to the union today,
stated the reasons why and we also laid out what the process would
be for the investigation, reiterated some of the employees' rights
under the personnel rules for participation in the investigation
and any subsequent progressive disciplinary action. So that
brought us to today. This morning we put together an
investigation team and I believe -- I haven't had a chance to speak
with Mr. Cummings yet, but I believe we began our investigation
this morning. We intended to -- three of the employees flew back
to Ketchikan yesterday, so we'll be traveling to Ketchikan tomorrow
afternoon to interview those people.
Number 120
CHAIRMAN KELLY: Questions? Representative Porter.
Number 122
REPRESENTATIVE BRIAN PORTER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. In looking
at the IBU labor agreements, there's a provision that -- I'm taking
it a little bit out of context, but it basically provides grounds
for immediate discharge, leaving the vessel without being properly
relieved or without permission. Were these employees IBU members
or were they...
MR. HAYDEN: Yes, they were all IBU members.
Number 130
REPRESENTATIVE PORTER: If the investigation establishes that this
was a work stoppage as opposed to five illnesses, would you
interpret that provision to mean that these employees would be
discharged?
MR. HAYDEN: That's definitely one of the options for the
progressive disciplinary action. In our letter to the employees
that was carbon copied to the union, we set out three reasons for
our suspension and I believe each one of those were supported.
However, under the terms of that contract, I believe that the
employees at the time that they filled out the unfit for duty slip
followed the procedure that was laid out on the ship. Now it's a
matter of whether or not that was an accurate statement, whether or
not the employees were sick or whether or not they walked off.
REPRESENTATIVE PORTER: Well one of the other provisions, again
under -- shall be grounds for immediate discharge is falsifying
records. If the investigation determines that this wasn't an
illness but was a work stoppage, wouldn't that be falsifying
records?
MR. HAYDEN: Yes sir, it sure would.
CHAIRMAN KELLY: Any questions about that particular incident?
Number 149
REPRESENTATIVE PETE KOTT: Mr. Chairman -- Gary, you mentioned
these five individuals were placed on administrative leave without
pay.
MR. HAYDEN: That's correct.
REPRESENTATIVE KOTT: Do they have available as an option to file
an annual leave or a sick leave slip that would in fact make them
whole?
MR. HAYDEN: No, they do not. Not under the suspension that we
gave them. One of the employees did come into the office yesterday
and filed for a draw on previously earned wages from a voyage that
had already been taken place that he hadn't been paid for and we
paid him $450.
CHAIRMAN KELLY: Gary, how much did these five employees make last
year, for example, in 1995?
MR. HAYDEN: Okay, let me flip through some paper here. I just ran
some numbers hurriedly this morning and I can give you -- I'll just
call them ABs for able-bodied seamen, employee A, B, C, D.
Employee A, who was an able-bodied seaman received compensation of
$48,254 and I figure a benefit package of 37.1 percent; that would
bring that employee up to $66,156. The able-bodied seamen position
B earned $30,968, with benefits is $42,458. The oiler position was
$42,601 and with benefits $58,405. The oiler employee D earned
$42,132 and with benefits $57,763. The oiler employee E received
$25,489 and with benefits that comes to $34,946.
Number 183
REPRESENTATIVE KOTT: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Gary, were these
employees employed year-round last year? The numbers that you are
conveying to us, there seems to be some substantial difference in
some of them. I'm just wondering if they were employed all year.
MR. HAYDEN: Employee A worked 1,256 hours; Employee B, 1,416; C
was 1,838; D was 1,844; and E was 1,084. So it would appear that
they had worked most of the year. Differences come from the type
of pay that they receive....
CHAIRMAN KELLY: Thirty-two weeks.
MR. HAYDEN: There's regular time, there's overtime, vacation,
sick, there's holidays with two classifications of holiday pay -
regular pay and overtime - there's early callback, there's minimum
guarantees, there's unearned wages, there's split wages, there's
travel, and I'll go into those compensation packages, plus uniform
allowance.
CHAIRMAN KELLY: Before we do that - Senator Leman.
Number 205
SENATOR LOREN LEMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Gary, under normal
spread of hours, I think full time employment is 2,088 hours for a
year and none of these were at that. What is considered full time
employment for the Marine Highway System for these type of
employees? How many hours a year would be considered full time?
MR. HAYDEN: Senator Leman, I don't have a general number on that.
Each contract -- to back up three steps. There are seven unions
that the Marine Highway System operates with; four of those are on
shore, three of them are on the ships. On the ships, each contract
is unique and different and has different rates. Some people in
the Southeast work a week on and a week off and the people in
Southwest work a month on and a month off or they may work four
months on, four months off and leave accruals are different.
There's a two-tiered leave accrual rate for employees hired after
a certain date, so it's difficult for me to generalize as to what
the annual number of hours for a full time employee is. I think
we'd almost have to look at positions either in Southeast or in the
Southwest.
SENATOR LEMAN: In your opinion, would any of these be full time
employees?
MR. HAYDEN: Yes.
SENATOR LEMAN: Especially the ones who are at 1,800 hours?
MR. HAYDEN: Yes.
CHAIRMAN KELLY: Chairman Kott.
Number 225
REPRESENTATIVE KOTT: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Gary, were any of
these individuals involved in this incident non-Alaskans?
MR. HAYDEN: It's my understanding that one of the people had a
Bellingham mailing address; however, I do have a contact for that
person here in Juneau. So, one of the employees, I learned this
morning, I guess I have a question as to whether he's an Alaskan
resident or Bellingham resident.
Number 231
CHAIRMAN KELLY: Gary, what about an oversight of the wage and
salary structure, and vacation and benefit policies in the Alaska
ferry system.
MR. HAYDEN: Would you like an overview of that? Okay. Can I
invite Bruce Cummings to the table with me? As I said it's going
to vary depending on which union you want to talk about -- IBU
contract?
CHAIRMAN KELLY: Well, I guess all the union contracts on the ferry
system. Did you bring a list of the amount of money made by each
person in the ferry system last year?
MR. HAYDEN: We paid out $50 million plus in personal service costs
on the Marine Highway System of which about 11 was on shore, so
vessel employees earned approximately $39 million in wages.
CHAIRMAN KELLY: What are your highest employees and what kind of
money do they make? What did your top five employees make last
year?
MR. HAYDEN: I have a run of average cost by position and I can
give you -- let's talk about average cost by position and then I
can go look at another spreadsheet that's a run by employees. The
average earnings of a master was $90,000 plus there's some overtime
in addition to that. I roughly looked at a run of overtime and
took average full time equivalents who were getting paid overtime
and came up with about $99,000 for an average of a master. Now
that varies all the way down to a -- let's see, it looks like a
mess steward would be the lowest employee in the IBU - average
earnings there were $44,883 and overtime of another - $9,655 for
overtime average for a mess steward.
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG: Is that fully loaded with benefits?
MR. HAYDEN: Yes, that includes benefits
CHAIRMAN KELLY: Senator Torgerson.
SENATOR JOHN TORGERSON: That was my question.
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG: And the COLD, too?
MR. HAYDEN: Yes.
Number 268
CHAIRMAN KELLY: Then the range of onboard ferry workers is between
$52,000 and $99,000?
MR. HAYDEN: On an average. When we go look at individual
different employees that number definitely changes. There are
people out there making a lot less than what the average I quoted
you was. There are people who are working seasonally who make less
than $25,000.
CHAIRMAN KELLY: Representative Rokeberg.
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Sir, could you
- with those two top ranges, could we go back to Senator Leman's
question regarding the number of hours for those two positions
then?
MR. HAYDEN: I had 33,590 hours worked by masters, approximately
15.4 people working that, so that's 2,181 hours for a master,
excluding the overtime. Masters only receive overtime when they
are in the shipyard. They receive other compensation - nonwatch
pay in terms of the contract. In the Stewards Department, there
were 168,386 hours worked by 77 employees, so that's again 21,886.
CHAIRMAN KELLY: I'm having a little trouble reconciling these
numbers because the five folks that were involved in that incident
yesterday were all making in the 40s and yet you're saying the
lowest paid job is $44,080 plus $9,000 overtime, so I'm having
trouble reconciling in my mind.
MR. HAYDEN: Senator, the numbers that I just gave you between the
99 and 59 are averaged of all the hours worked and the salaries
paid out. So that's an average, that's not a spread. That's an
average of the numbers. And then the numbers for the employees
were the actual I pointed out. Let me look to see if I brought my
spreadsheet that had all of the employee's compensation for
everybody - which I don't think that I did -- I didn't bring the
information that has all of the employees' wages and...
CHAIRMAN KELLY: So is it a fair statement to say that the jobs on
board the Alaska Ferry Highway System pay between $59,000 and
$99,000 a year?
MR. HAYDEN: No, sir. They pay between $25,000 and $109,000
depending on what position....
CHAIRMAN KELLY: $25,000 to $99,000.
MR. HAYDEN: $109,000.
CHAIRMAN KELLY: $109,000.
MR. HAYDEN: Some masters make more than what this average I quoted
you was.
CHAIRMAN KELLY: Who only gets $25,000 a year full time?
MR. HAYDEN: Oh, those full time equivalents? Those are people who
are working seasonal jobs, not full time working year-round.
CHAIRMAN KELLY: Full time, year-round jobs - what's the range?
MR. HAYDEN: Okay, probably $35,000 to a high range of $110,000.
REPRESENTATIVE PORTER: $110,000?
MR. HAYDEN: Yes.
CHAIRMAN KELLY: Okay, let's talk about shifts for your various
workers. How are they scheduled, how do they work, that type of
thing?
MR. HAYDEN: Okay, a junior engineer works - 12 hours is one day's
worth of work. They stand watch and watch is divided up into 6
hours on and then 6 hours off. So, within a 24-hour day, they work
12 hours. They work that for 7 consecutive days. They work a
minimum of 84 hours. So, a week's worth of work is 7-12 hour days.
CHAIRMAN KELLY: Are they paid hourly or do they get overtime
after....
MR. HAYDEN: They are paid hourly and they receive overtime after
84 hours.
CHAIRMAN KELLY: After 84 hours.
MR. HAYDEN: After 84 hours - or excuse me, or if they get -- work
more than 12 hours within one 24-hour period, then they get
overtime for that. If they're off of watch, like an AB is off his
6 hours and gets called out to tie up the vessel, he gets a minimum
call out of 2 hours.
CHAIRMAN KELLY: Okay, so they work a week and they're off a week.
On the week that they're working, they're on board the ships 24
hours a day.
MR. HAYDEN: That's correct.
Number 330
CHAIRMAN KELLY: Do they pay room and board? Do they pay for their
own meals or how is that handled?
MR. HAYDEN: No sir, under the Jones Act, mariners are to receive
food - we're to feed them. I looked up last summer when we were
having these discussions and we're to provide them a minimum of
2,000 calories a day. It's spelled out in federal law. So no, the
employee does not pay for that; the Marine Highway System provides
room and board.
CHAIRMAN KELLY: Vacation. How much vacation time do they get and
do they have also sick leave separate from vacation?
MR. HAYDEN: There's a two-tiered system. Let's just talk about
IBU employees (indisc.-paper shuffling). Okay, for employees who
are under the most recent schedule, it varies by the years of
service. For the employee who has one to two years, they get 84
hours...
CHAIRMAN KELLY: I'm sorry, Gary, they get how many?
MR. HAYDEN: They get 84 hours, so they get one week of annual
leave. That varies up to -- there's a step of 2 to 3; 3 to 4; 4 to
5; and then 5 or more. Those employees who receive five or more
years of service - of continuous service - would receive 420 hours,
which is equivalent to 5 weeks. Now, those employees who were
hired prior to April 1, 1985, have a different scale. It starts
off with the employee working 1 to 2 at 84 hours, progresses all
the way to 10 on yearly increments, and once it's at 10 or more,
they receive 588 hours which is equivalent to 7 weeks.
CHAIRMAN KELLY: So, if you've worked for the ferry system for
about 11 years, you get how many weeks after 10 years?
MR. HAYDEN: If you went to work prior to 1985, you receive 7 weeks
of annual leave. If you were hired after that, you receive 5 weeks
of annual leave.
CHAIRMAN KELLY: Okay. How is your sick leave structured?
MR. HAYDEN: IBU employees receive 15 hours a month of sick leave,
so that's just a little over a day. Mr. Cummings pointed out to me
that's a day and a quarter which is comparable to shore side
employee accruals in the other bargaining units.
Number 364
CHAIRMAN KELLY: How does that work in the real world out there --
somebody gets sick on board, do they just miss a shift or....
MR. HAYDEN: That has recently changed. In January of this year we
had an arbitrator's decision that said that the employee received
unearned wages and we were not entitled to dock his sick leave.
Prior to that, we had been -- when an employee became ill and was
unable to complete the 84 hours - the voyage - and they walked off
the ship due to illness - we put them off - we had been charging
their sick leave bank and making that 84-hour week whole. However,
we had an arbitrator's decision in January that said that we were
doing it incorrectly in that we could not charge their sick leave;
that we had to pay them for the rest of the voyage. So currently
you can become ill on the ship and you get a minimum guarantee of
84 hours.
CHAIRMAN KELLY: Gary, what about retirement systems for the....
Are all those contracts the same concerning leave?
MR. HAYDEN: No, there's different leave scales for the different
unions. They're fairly comparable to each other but there's a
different twist in each one.
CHAIRMAN KELLY: Pension plans.
MR. HAYDEN: Marine Engineers Beneficial Association (MEBA) have
their own pension plan that's part of their national organization.
Inlandboatmen's Union of the Pacific (IBU) and Masters, Mates and
Pilots (MMP) are on the state retirement system.
CHAIRMAN KELLY: Is that the PERS system?
MR. HAYDEN: Yes.
CHAIRMAN KELLY: How much do we contribute to the MEBA system - the
equivalent of what we contribute to the state system? Or is it
more, is it less?
MR. HAYDEN: I don't know the answer to that - can you give me a
second. Under Rule 28 - 2802, the state pays $6.50 per day worked
towards their retirement.
CHAIRMAN KELLY: Pardon me, I missed that.
MR. HAYDEN: Six dollars and fifty cents a day which is less, I
believe, than the PERS contribution.
CHAIRMAN KELLY: And under the PERS system, what is a normal
retirement under the PERS system that they are authorized to have?
Maybe you can explain the PERS system for us very briefly.
MR. HAYDEN: Senator, I don't believe I'm qualified to explain the
PERS retirement system.
CHAIRMAN KELLY: Is Janet here?
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yes.
CHAIRMAN KELLY: Janet, will you join us please and explain the
PERS system to those who might not be aware of what's in it.
Number 398
JANET PARKER, Deputy Director, Division of Retirement & Benefits,
Department of Administration: Under the PERS system, there are two
tiers - tier one and tier two currently. Members of the IBU and
MMP would be in either one of those tiers. The normal retirement
for tier one is at age 55 or at any age with 30 years of service,
but service for IBU started in 1983 and service for Masters, Mates
and Pilots didn't start until 1986, so no one would fall under
those rules. Their early retirement would be at age 50 in tier
one, their benefit formula is the same in both tiers - it's 2
percent for the first 10 years, 2 1/4 percent for the second 10
years, and 2 l/2 percent for all years over 20.
CHAIRMAN KELLY: And those are percentages of what?
MS. PARKER: Of their average monthly compensation. So we would
average their three high years. In tier one, major medical
insurance is provided free of charge to all retirees and their
dependents. In both tiers, vesting is at five years. In tier one,
all retirees receive a cost of living allowance when they are
residing within the state and that's equal to 10 percent of your
benefit or $50, whichever is greater. We also grant post-
retirement pension adjustments in tier one. They have a choice --
they don't have a choice, we calculate ad hoc if it's being
granted, which is a 4 percent compounded or they have the choice of
an automatic PRPA which is granted based upon the Consumer Price
Index (CPI) change in the prior year.
Number 420
MS. PARKER: In tier two, normal retirement age shifts from 55 to
age 60. The early retirement also shifts up from 50 to 55. With
major medical insurance, the retirement system only provides
coverage to disabilitants and retirees over the age of 65. If you
are under the age of 65 but over 60, the retirement system will pay
one-half the premium and you have to pay the other half. If you
are under the age of 60, you have to pay the full premium if you
want to have insurance. The cost of living allowance for tier two
-- that's the allowance you get for living within the state of
Alaska, is only available in tier two to disabilitants and retirees
65 or older. The calculation for the automatic PRPA is 75 percent
of the CPI in the prior year for people who are disabled and those
who are 65 and over. If you are under 65 but over 60, you receive
50 percent of the CPI and you also receive that if you've been
retired for five or more years. And those are the difference
between the two systems. Everything else is the same.
Number 433
CHAIRMAN KELLY: Okay, the salary ranges in the Marine Highway
System range between $35,000 and $110,000 a year, so let's take
something in the middle. What would somebody that was making
$75,000 a year, that worked 25 years receive in terms of a
retirement?
MS. PARKER: How long had they worked?
CHAIRMAN KELLY: Twenty-five years.
MS. PARKER: Twenty-five years. Three thousand, one hundred,
twenty five dollars and I'm assuming that only because most of them
have come into the system since 1986 and the multiplier is only
applied to service earned after 1986. So...
CHAIRMAN KELLY: Is that a tier one benefit or a tier two benefit
you just calculated?
MS. PARKER: It's both. Tier one and tier two have the same
benefit formula.
Number 448
CHAIRMAN KELLY: Any other questions about the PERS system? Thank
you, Janet. Appreciate you being here.
CHAIRMAN KELLY: Gary, we've got an audit here done by the Office
of Management & Budget (OMB) and in it, it says that the Alaska
Marine Highway employees are paid more than employees of the
Canadian ferry system and the Washington ferry system --
considerable more. How do we justify that?
MR. HAYDEN: Senator, I have not read that document. I'd like to
call to the table a representative from the Department of
Administration which I believe was involved in that....
CHAIRMAN KELLY: Okay.
Number 453
MIA DOYLE, Labor Relations, Department of Administration: I know
a little about it, Senator. The document that you're referring to
was actually created during the Hickel Administration by somebody
working in the Office of Management & Budget who did a salary
survey of the various ferry systems and tried as accurately as
possible to compare the systems. There's a number of difficulties
involved because of the difference in working conditions, the
difference between Canadian and American dollars, the difference
between their retirement and health benefits, et cetera. I think
that that individual tried to make adjustments for that and those
are certainly reflected in this document. I think it's fair to say
or to let you know, that we have discussed this at the bargaining
table and the unions all disagree with the conclusions. I think
the document speaks for itself regarding its -- its application
that's another matter.
CHAIRMAN KELLY: Gary, something occurred to me. The supplemental
benefit system, do state ferry workers partake in that program?
MR. HAYDEN: SBS? Yes, they do.
CHAIRMAN KELLY: All of them?
MR. HAYDEN: The MEBA employees do not.
CHAIRMAN KELLY: MEBA doesn't?
MR. HAYDEN: No.
CHAIRMAN KELLY: Are they then under social security instead?
MR. HAYDEN: Well, they have their own retirement system and I'm
not sure what that package is under MEBA but we do not pay into
social security for them, nor do we pay into SBS.
CHAIRMAN KELLY: Do you have available some of the amounts of money
that the employees have in these SBS accounts?
MR. HAYDEN: No, I didn't bring that with me. I'd be happy to
supply that to the committee.
CHAIRMAN KELLY: .... what some of these accounts are up to now --
these SBS accounts?
MR. HAYDEN: I've never looked at what those accounts are running.
MS. DOYLE: I would imagine it could be gotten at some point. I
don't know that there's a standard report run.
CHAIRMAN KELLY: Could you get that information to us -- we don't
need to know their names certainly, but what some of the highest
accounts are running.
MR. HAYDEN: Sure.
CHAIRMAN KELLY: Because these are personal accounts that when they
retire from the system they take out, correct? It's a secondary
pension fund, but it's in lieu of social security.
MR. HAYDEN: That's correct. However, we....
Number 478
REPRESENTATIVE KIM ELTON: Thank you, Senator. I guess the
question that's a logical question to follow the question by the
Chair is: Would you expect that those SBS accounts would be any
larger for an IBU employee than they would be for a general
government employee?
MR. HAYDEN: No, I wouldn't expect those accounts to be any
different than shore side people.
CHAIRMAN KELLY: Well, that's set into statute I believe, isn't it?
It's 6.18 percent the employer contributes, the employee
contributes 6.18 percent - 13.36 percent....
MS. DOYLE: And I believe, if I'm not mistaken, after a certain a
point, you can no longer contribute, is that correct? So after you
pass that ceiling, you don't continue to add money to that.
CHAIRMAN KELLY: What is the ceiling, Janet?
MS. PARKER: $62,600 I believe, for this year.
CHAIRMAN KELLY: Senator Taylor has joined us. Representative
Williams and Speaker Phillips are here. Senator Taylor.
Number 487
SENATOR ROBIN TAYLOR: Gary, the problem I find with the study that
is being touted as a viable comparison is that many of the people,
as I understand it, that operate both the Washington State ferries
- I know that all of their people are day people and the people
that operate the Canadian ferries - almost all of them I think are
also day people. They go home each night, sleep in their own bed,
get to go to their kid's graduation -- I mean, our people don't do
that. All of our people on all of our ferries are on there for a
full week - 24 hours a day. And so a proper comparison would
probably be with the tugboat fleet or the merchant mariner fleet
where you're gone for an extended period of time, especially those
people working up in the up to westward -- I've had calls from some
of those people who haven't been off a boat in six months. So, I
mean there's quite a significant difference between the pay scale
you're going to have to pay to take somebody away from their home
for an extended period or the pay scale you'll have to give to
somebody that goes home everyday after a 10-hour shift.
MR. HAYDEN: Senator, you're absolutely correct. These are 24-
hour, 7-day a week jobs and as you pointed out, some of the lengths
of voyages in the Southwest are for multiple months. So yes,
there's a difference and in those respects the state of Washington
ferry fleet is not a comparable measure. However, I'm not familiar
with how this study was done.
CHAIRMAN KELLY: Okay. The Chair recognizes Representative
Robinson is also in attendance. Robin, did you have another
question?
SENATOR TAYLOR: No, thank you. I just wanted to make that point.
CHAIRMAN KELLY: Any further questions? Representative Kott.
Number 502
REPRESENTATIVE KOTT: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Gary, I want to go
back to the compensation -- primarily looking at again the annual
leave, vacation leave, as well as sick leave. Now you ran the
numbers and I want to use just five weeks or above and multiply and
the number I come up with is 420 hours of annual leave and 180
hours of sick leave and if we use the standard 8-hour work day,
that amounts to 10 weeks in one and 4 1/2 weeks in the other for a
total of about 15 weeks of annual/sick leave, if we were using an
8-hour day. And I understand we are not, in some cases. But my
question really is: If these are hourly employees, or paid by the
hour, is the option to sell leave available to those employees as
we currently have in other settings?
MR. HAYDEN: Is the option to sell leave? You mean cash in leave?
REPRESENTATIVE KOTT: Cash it in.
MR. HAYDEN: Yes, I believe they can cash in up to 10 days annual
leave....
MS. DOYLE: I believe 84 hours for employees who have been with the
system for 10 years or longer, if I'm not mistaken.
MR. HAYDEN: So, there's a limit on that just like there is on
shore side. However, I would point out that these are not 8-hour
leave days; these are 12-hour leave days. For a week, you have to
take leave for 84 hours to be off for a week. You don't take leave
for 8 hours and then come back to work. When you put in for leave,
you put in for leave for 84 hours.
REPRESENTATIVE KOTT: Ya, I understand that.
CHAIRMAN KELLY: Gary, in the union contracts that are before the
legislature (indisc.) 1.5 percent increase in funding, how much is
that directly to the Alaska State ferry system? What is the cost
of the union contract increase to the state ferry system that are
currently being considered by the legislature?
MR. HAYDEN: The package that was negotiated last summer would cost
$1.3 million for `96 and `97 - the total of the two. The `96 costs
were - the lump sum payments, I think was about $800,000 and then
$470,000 for the `97; 1.4 was the actual number that came out
instead of 1.5. It was one - one-half of the CPI; the CPI turned
out to be less so.... But those two numbers is $1.3 million.
CHAIRMAN KELLY: What about -- how was COLD calculated which is the
cost of living differential.
MR. HAYDEN: The cost of living differential is calculated based on
a percent that varies by contract, but on the average the number
runs from 18 to 22 percent. It does vary by position....
CHAIRMAN KELLY: Eighteen to twenty-two percent of what?
MR. HAYDEN: Eighteen to twenty-two percent above the base wage.
CHAIRMAN KELLY: These wage figures that you gave us that range
from $35,000 to $110,000, does that include the cost of living?
MR. HAYDEN: Yes, it does.
CHAIRMAN KELLY: Representative Elton.
Number 534
REPRESENTATIVE ELTON: Gary, while somebody is here from the
Department of Administration, I don't know if you have an answer
but I know that the Department of Administration has done cost
comparable across different professional tiers. Have you ever done
that with a master, for example, from the ferry system that might
be making $99,000 and somebody with equal professional
responsibilities. In fact, I understand that some of the masters
are also qualified as marine pilots. My understanding is that
marine pilots can make over $100,000 a year, also. Have you done
that kind of comparison that compares what a master could get
outside of the Marine Highway System?
MS. DOYLE: Officially? No, we haven't done that. As you
mentioned correctly, marine pilots do make quite a considerable sum
of money on the cruise ships; they're private contractors and
they're paid -- I don't know what benefits they may or may not
accrue during that period of time.
REPRESENTATIVE ELTON: If I could follow up, Mr. Chair. I mean I
think that kind of information would be very important. I'd like
to know what a master who leaves the "Mat" can make if they get off
the boat in Ketchikan and retire from the system and become a
marine pilot. I think we need to understand what other market
forces are out there tugging at these people.
CHAIRMAN KELLY: Do you get many applications Gary, to work for the
Alaska Marine Highway System?
MR. HAYDEN: I have personally received in the deck department,
two to three in the last year for entry-level positions in the deck
department for Alaska residents who want to work up through the
system.
CHAIRMAN KELLY: Do you have any trouble filling any positions on
the Alaska State ferry System?
MR. HAYDEN: We've had some difficulty in finding people who are in
the unlicensed department, working in the engine room who have the
Z-Card certificate for oiler and wiper. So yes, we've been short
some of those positions, but when you get above - get out of that
job class, we probably have not had difficulty in filling
positions.
CHAIRMAN KELLY: Is there a large turnover? Is it an abnormally
large turnover compared to the other state....
MR. HAYDEN: No, I would say the average longevity is in the order
of magnitude of 10 years at least within the fleet. So there's not
a high turnover rate. I don't know -- I haven't compared that to
shore side - other state employees, I don't know what that rate is,
but it's about 10 years.
REPRESENTATIVE KOTT: Senator Taylor.
SENATOR TAYLOR: Ya, thank you. I'm not a member of this
committee, but I really appreciate Senator Kelly being kind enough
to let me sit in and thank you very much, Co-Chairman Kott. I want
to get back to the point that was raised earlier about COLD or cost
of living differential and how that differential was achieved
because I think most of the members are not aware of that. At one
point in time, it's my understanding your department entered into
an agreement, administratively, to establish a differential in pay
between Alaskan workers and those outside of our geographical
boundaries in the state of Washington because we had a lot of
people - I think now it's down to 20 people out of the state of
Washington that actually work on the system. But in doing that,
where other departments across the board were granted a bonus so to
speak in that year and got a cost of living differential -- say if
you worked in Fairbanks or Nome or Bethel, you got a cost of living
differential; where in our workers, they got their normal raises
over a given period of years and when the disparity between
Washington base wage which was frozen, and the Alaskan wage where
it had normally grown to, then all parties moved the same going up
the ladder. In other words, a 3 percent pay increase at this point
would raise the Washington base 3 percent and it would raise the
Alaskan 3 percent. So, as to characterize this as a cost of living
differential and then factor it off the Washington base is not
accurate as it relates to other departments. In fact, our people
each achieved those wage increases over time and Washington was
froze and only began to move when there had been...
TAPE 96-44, SIDE B
Number 998
SENATOR TAYLOR: ....a sufficient differential created. That's
significantly different than getting a bonus on your paycheck
because you're working in Fairbanks and every year you get that
bonus.
MR. HAYDEN: Senator, you're correct. There are several
differences between these contracts and shore side contracts. It's
my understanding that over time when the employees received a
percentage increase that some of that percent went to make up the
difference in the spread between the cost of living differential
between out-of-state and in-state employees. So, it didn't
necessarily reflect across the board pay raises for everyone. The
other thing is these employees do not receive merit increases. So
those are two significant things that have varied these three
unions and how they're different than shore side.
Number 974
SENATOR TAYLOR: That's just the only point I wanted to make was
that there was a significant difference in how these -- I'm just as
frustrated by the way as the rest of these members I believe are,
with a lot of the foolish gestures and rhetoric that have gone on
in the last few days. I think there was a better way to have
handled it and I'm not at all pleased with that. But I don't want
to see this as an opportunity to start distorting things as it
relates to those people that are employed in my district that I am
concerned about. I don't want to see them take the brunt of the
actions of a very few. So that's why I wanted to make those
comments. I think there's significant difference here; these are
people working long hours and away from their families -- this
isn't some guy that's running a road grader in Fairbanks that also
is available for merit pay every single year and has been for the
last 15. I think the ferry workers across the board would have
given up any pay raises if they just could have had merit pay;
their pay today would be quite a bit higher than it is based on any
raises we've given anybody.
CHAIRMAN KELLY: Gary.
MR. HAYDEN: Senator - Mr. Chairman. I think one thing that's very
important to point out that's facing all of us today is these
agreements that we're talking about were negotiated and signed off
on in 1994. We have been through this process several times and I
can understand the frustration on people's parts when they have
negotiated at the table in good faith and contracts have not been
followed through on. This contract was negotiated in `94. Last
summer, we spent a lot of hard work working with the unions trying
to negotiate a different salary scale. The only thing we were
talking about last summer was salary scale because the contract
that's in effect and has been in effect since October 10, 1994, --
the only thing we talked about last year was the percent of the pay
increase. And that number came down - the unions gave up what they
had previously negotiated in good faith. So the number that's in
front of you today - 1.3 - is considerably lower than the number
that had previously been brought in front of you the year before.
CHAIRMAN KELLY: Gary, how many vessels do we have in the Marine
Highway System?
MR. HAYDEN: Senator, we have eight vessels. We have one under
construction.
CHAIRMAN KELLY: And how many communities do they serve?
MR. HAYDEN: They serve 32 communities and those 32 communities
have a population of 110,000 people. So we serve approximately 20
percent of the state's population.
CHAIRMAN KELLY: You serve about 20 percent of the state's
population. That means you don't serve 80 percent, correct?
MR. HAYDEN: Well sir, that's a misnomer because the Marine Highway
System and being a transportation link, contributes to the economy
statewide and I have brought with me an Economic Impact Analysis of
the Marine Highway System, not only in the Southeast and the
Southwest, but also statewide that I'd be happy to go over with you
as a committee. But the state invests on an annual basis
approximately $28 million in general fund subsidy to the Marine
Highway System and in exchange for that, the local economists we
hired last year to study the situation, said the state received a
return of $171,000 in direct and indirect spending....
CHAIRMAN KELLY: Did you mean $171 million?
MR. HAYDEN: Excuse me, yes sir, $171 million for the $28 million
invested. So the system is linked to Southcentral - it's linked to
the economy there; it's linked to the western states -- much of the
bait fish that's caught in Southeast gets transported on the Marine
Highway System and is used in the Bristol Bay area or up in the
western part of the state. There are definite links between
Southeast and the rest of the state and the Marine Highway System
is one of those important transportation links.
CHAIRMAN KELLY: Representative Porter.
REPRESENTATIVE PORTER: Thank you. I guess that kind of economic
development (indisc.) drives the question on the cost of living
differential. It would be hard for me to believe that the cost of
living differential, which I think you said averaged between 16 and
24 percent....
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG: Eighteen.
REPRESENTATIVE PORTER: Eighteen and twenty-four percent and
obviously there's not an 18 to 24 percent cost of living difference
between Seattle and Juneau. Is it to induce employees to live in
Alaska and have the economic benefit of their residency or what is
the intent?
MR. HAYDEN: Senator - Representative Porter, at the time that the
COLD was introduced, it's my understanding that the cost of living
differential was higher than the 22 - I think the numbers used to
run as high as 30 percent. So over time, economic conditions have
changed. What is the number today? I don't know. I don't believe
that the state's done a comprehensive analysis as to what that cost
of living differential is. I don't think that we can sit here and
pull out a good statistical analysis of what those costs are. I
think intuitively we know the cost has come down and the spread and
the gap between the two have changed.
CHAIRMAN KELLY: One thing first. Gary, how many employees do we
have at the Marine Highway System?
MR. HAYDEN: There are approximately 718 vessel employees of which
666 are Alaska residents and about 51 are nonresidents.
CHAIRMAN KELLY: And what's the total cost to operate the ferry
system on an annual basis?
MR. HAYDEN: Approximately -- this coming year we will expend
approximately $70 million.
CHAIRMAN KELLY: And of that $70 million, you're subsidized by the
state general fund of $28 million?
MR. HAYDEN: That's correct and we bring in revenues from our sales
of the other $40 million plus.
CHAIRMAN KELLY: Representative Elton.
Number 938
REPRESENTATIVE ELTON: Thanks, Senator. I just wanted to say I'm
a little bit uncomfortable with the question that Representative
Porter was asking, because the way I understand it is the way the
cost of living differential occurred was Alaskans didn't get
bonuses, but the Washington State and other outside people were
frozen and they didn't get the normal accrual of benefits over a
certain period of time until you got to that 18 to 22 percent
differential. I'm not so sure I'm anxious to look into whether or
not that's correct or not because if the cost of living
differential is now 10 percent, I think the fair of way of getting
to that would be to raise Washington rather than cutting Alaskans.
And that could open up kind of a dangerous territory.
CHAIRMAN KELLY: Representative Rokeberg.
Number 931
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG: Mr. Chairman - Gary, I'm kind of
disturbed about this whole thing because I'm trying to understand
the exact base. Are you suggesting, as I hear Representative Elton
suggesting, that our base salary level is based on the Washington
State ferry system or what's going on here? If we're going to be
asking to raise the Washington State ferry system's wages, does
that mean that our wage schedule is based on that? And in addition
I'd also like to ask if the COLD calculation is a bargainable point
or unless it's empirically based on some kind of a third party type
statistical analysis or is it merely something that is bargained
for at the table?
MR. HAYDEN: To clarify, I don't believe Representative Elton nor
myself were suggesting that COLD was set by the state of Washington
ferry workers. COLD is a cost of living differential between
Alaska and outside - they used the state of Washington as the base.
It's a different factor in that it's separating resident versus
nonresident. There are 51 nonresidents; those people make less
than Alaskans do because under the terms of the contract, as
expected, their cost of living is less than the Alaska residents.
Therefore, they receive less. Is it a negotiated item? Yes, it is
a negotiated item and we have entered into, very preliminary, we've
had our first round of negotiations with MEBA and not to get into
the negotiation process, but one of the things we're talking about
with them is lowering that rate and spreading that money and using
it in different other ways. So yes, we are looking at the
contracts that are coming up, doing something with COLD. I should
point out to you that of the three contracts, we have two of them
in effect - the third contract from MEBA expires in October and
we'll be negotiating a new contract with them over the next several
months.
Number 908
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG: Mr. Chairman, on a follow up. In
reviewing the executive summary on the OMB report, it looks like
there was a significant differential for the MV Bartlett and the
Southwest employees and the Tustemena and the Southeastern
employees. Is that differential still in effect and what was the
explanation for it?
MR. HAYDEN: Yes, that differential is still in effect and those
contracts are different -- the Southwest and the Southeast are
different -- different -- almost different contracts within
contracts. I'm not real familiar with the history as to how we got
to that point, but it's my understanding that the cost of living
was different in Southeast than it was in Southcentral and the
working conditions in Southwest were different than they were in
Southeast, the licensing that people had to have on the Tustemena
as an ocean-going vessel which is different than an inland waters
vessel - they're managed separately.
CHAIRMAN KELLY: Okay Gary, we're running out of time. We have to
give up the committee room here. Did the committee have any
further questions?
REPRESENTATIVE KOTT: I've got one. Gary, were you involved in the
contract negotiations, since we have kind of ventured into this
area?
MR. HAYDEN: Over the 1 l/2 percent, yes I was.
REPRESENTATIVE KOTT: If my numbers are correct, the IBU had a 3.3
percent increase in 1990; a 5 percent increase in 1991; and it
looks like in 1992, a 3.6 percent increase; I don't think there's
been any increases since 1992. The Masters, Mates and Pilots union
had an increase of 5.6 percent in 1991; 3.6 in `92; `93 there was
no increase; `94 there was a 4.4 percent; and last year there was
no increase. I guess my question to you is, how do we sell the
public any kind of an increase -- and I really appreciate you
keeping the percentages to an absolute minimum -- but how do we
sell the public an increase in wages when other areas, especially
in the private sector we've seen retrenchment, just cutbacks,
reduction in pay and what not.
MR. HAYDEN: Mr. Chairman....
REPRESENTATIVE KOTT: I'm -- it's a tough question I understand.
MR. HAYDEN: It's a difficult question to answer, but I believe
that all of us have seen a rise in the cost of living each day. We
have gasoline prices going up - I know I look at my property
assessment, and my assessments are going up, the cost of living for
the whole United States - our economy as it keeps up, it costs us
more to live and to work. I believe that that in itself is maybe
an over-simplification of an answer, but people have worked very
hard - we've negotiated a contract; we had to have -- we attempted
to have cost savings within this contract and that's what brings us
to this point today as to whether or not we're going to honor the
collective bargaining process and move forward. For the Marine
Highway System, it's been a very difficult time for labor and
management working through these issues which not necessarily were
all of our own making from a management standpoint.
CHAIRMAN KELLY: Gary, were the union negotiators and members aware
that those contracts didn't go into existence unless it was funded
by the legislature. Was there an awareness factor there that
they're not final until funded?
MR. HAYDEN: That's correct. We were very conscious of what
happened last year; we wrote specific language into this contract
that said if the legislature did not appropriate the money for this
contract, we would sit down again for 10 days and negotiate in good
faith to see if we could reach an agreement, at which time we would
waive our right and the union could declare an impasse if they
chose to and go have their strike vote as to what to do.
CHAIRMAN KELLY: Any further questions from the committee?
Number 866
REPRESENTATIVE BEVERLY MASEK: Mr. Chairman, what I'd like to know
is what is the total amount of the -- or the total number of
workers that we have employed on the ferries - the eight different
ferries.
MR. HAYDEN: Seven hundred and eighteen.
REPRESENTATIVE MASEK: And of those 718, how many is seasonal
workers?
MR. HAYDEN: Seasonal workers? They're all -- each one of these
workers - we receive workers out of the union hall - as we have a
ship running, we call up the union or we dispatch them ourselves
for IBU, the other two unions, they dispatch out of the union hall.
The number of workers and whether or not a person works depends on
seniority and it depends on the availability of a job. The
availability of a job depends a whole lot on what ships we have
running. In the winter time, we may only have three to four of the
vessels running at any one time which cuts down everyone's
opportunity to work so only the most senior people are working;
they don't necessarily have a year-round job - only until they get
to a certain level within the seniority system. So, there aren't
designated seasonal jobs; they're jobs that we hire that we may not
have people who have seniority to fill the entry level jobs when we
have all the vessels running because people are coming and going.
However, after they've worked there and built up their seniority,
they have the opportunity to have a year-round job. So to some
degree, they're all seasonal jobs up until they get the seniority
to work all year-round when we lower the work opportunities.
REPRESENTATIVE MASEK: Mr. Chairman. And how many -- how many
personnel does it take to operate a vessel? What is the total
number of people?
MR. HAYDEN: The crew members on the Malaspina yesterday was 47; it
goes as high as the Columbia with 66. The vessels vary in size
from 235 feet up to 408 feet. Different complicated systems on
each one of them; therefore, there's different manning levels. The
Coast Guard certificate even sets different manning levels
depending on the ship.
CHAIRMAN KELLY: Senator Torgerson.
Number 840
SENATOR TORGERSON: Gary, in case of an impasse or a strike or
whatever might happen, what are your plans as far as operating the
system. Will you leave the boats tied up or do you have standby
crews or what is plan B.
MR. HAYDEN: If the legislature chooses not to fund these
contracts, we will go sit down with the union, see if we can get
them to agree to work without a pay raise. If they choose to say
no and declare an impasse, they have a strike vote, I would predict
by mid-June we'll be shut down. We do not have a plan B to keep
running the boats using a different set of employees. We believe
that we should honor the collective bargaining process and honor
these agreements. We're not interesting in busting these unions
and having people lose their job because in effect, if we went to
another outside of Alaska, either union or a recruitment agency -
I could do that. I could go find people to mann these ships, but
in the process there'd be 667 Alaskans that would probably be out
of work.
CHAIRMAN KELLY: Okay, we're going to have to wrap up. Any further
questions?
Number 829
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG: Mr. Chairman, I just wanted to request
the department if they could provide a follow up letter on the
rationale and basis for the cost of living differential and their
bargaining position, just more or less restate what you did, and
also some background without being too voluminous about the MV
Bartlett differential and that differential between the Southwest
and the Southeastern part of the state and the rationale behind
that.
CHAIRMAN KELLY: Okay, Gary?
Number 818
MS. DOYLE: If I may just very briefly....
CHAIRMAN KELLY: Would you state your name for the record, please.
MS. DOYLE: Ya, Mia Doyle from the Department of Administration.
I'm in the Labor Relations Section and I was the chief spokesperson
for most of the contracts we're talking about. A statement was
made earlier that the MMP received a 4.4 percent increase in 1994;
that increase applied to two or three people and it was to bring
them up to another wage level because of the size of the ship. It
would be a mistake for people to believe that there was a general
wage increase that year. There simply was not.
REPRESENTATIVE KOTT: Thank you for that clarification.
CHAIRMAN KELLY: Gary, any further comments?
MR. HAYDEN: No, Mr. Chairman. I believe that as far as the
incident that we had yesterday, I find it to be unfortunate. The
Administration is going to be fair, we're going to be firm and
we're looking forward to having a very productive summer on the
Alaska Marine Highway System and carrying 400,000 people this
coming year. And we'd like to keep them running.
CHAIRMAN KELLY: Okay, thank you very much.
REPRESENTATIVE KOTT: One last comment. Gary, when will that
investigation be complete?
MR. HAYDEN: Well, we're interviewing people today and tomorrow, so
I would hope within a week....
REPRESENTATIVE KOTT: Would you provide my office with a copy of
the preliminary.
CHAIRMAN KELLY: Okay, meeting adjourned at 3:15 p.m.
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