Legislature(1995 - 1996)
04/12/1996 01:20 PM House JUD
| Audio | Topic |
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
HOUSE JUDICIARY STANDING COMMITTEE
April 12, 1996
1:20 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Representative Brian Porter, Chairman
Representative Joe Green, Vice Chairman
Representative Con Bunde
Representative Bettye Davis
Representative Cynthia Toohey
Representative David Finkelstein
MEMBERS ABSENT
Representative Al Vezey
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
SENATE BILL 177
"An Act relating to permits to carry concealed handguns; and
relating to possession of firearms on state ferries."
- CSSB 177(STA) MOVED FROM COMMITTEE
HOUSE BILL 198
"An Act relating to absences from the state and eligibility for
permanent fund dividends; and providing for an effective date."
- CSHB 198(STA) MOVED FROM COMMITTEE
HOUSE JOINT RESOLUTION NO. 34
Proposing an amendment to the Constitution of the State of Alaska
relating to the duration of a regular session.
- SCHEDULED BUT NOT HEARD
PREVIOUS ACTION
BILL: SB 177
SHORT TITLE: CONCEALED HANDGUN PERMITS/ GUNS ON FERRY
SPONSOR(S): SENATOR(S) GREEN, Halford, Taylor, Donley;
REPRESENTATIVE(S) James, Kelly
JRN-DATE JRN-PG ACTION
05/06/95 1552 (S) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)
05/06/95 1552 (S) STA, JUD
10/05/95 (H) STA AT 9:00 AM ANCHORAGE LIO
10/05/95 (S) STA AT 9:00 AM ANCHORAGE LIO
10/05/95 (H) MINUTE(STA)
10/05/95 (S) MINUTE(STA)
01/08/96 2079 (S) COSPONSOR(S): HALFORD
01/09/96 2086 (S) COSPONSOR(S): TAYLOR
01/12/96 2131 (S) COSPONSOR(S): DONLEY
01/23/96 (H) STA AT 3:30 PM BUTROVICH RM 205
01/23/96 (S) STA AT 3:30 PM BUTROVICH ROOM 205
01/23/96 (H) MINUTE(STA)
01/23/96 (S) MINUTE(STA)
01/24/96 2214 (S) FIN REFERRAL ADDED - STA, JUD, FIN
02/13/96 (S) MINUTE(STA)
02/19/96 2468 (S) STA RPT CS 3DP 1NR SAME TITLE
02/19/96 2468 (S) FISCAL NOTE TO SB & CS (DPS)
02/19/96 2468 (S) ZERO FISCAL NOTE TO SB & CS (LAW)
02/23/96 (S) JUD AT 4:00 PM ANCHORAGE LIO
02/23/96 (S) MINUTE(JUD)
03/06/96 2623 (S) JUD RPT CS 3DP 2DNP SAME TITLE
03/06/96 2624 (S) FISCAL NOTE TO CS (DPS)
03/06/96 2624 (S) ZERO FISCAL NOTE TO CS (LAW)
03/22/96 (S) FIN AT 9:00 AM SENATE FINANCE 532
03/22/96 (S) MINUTE(FIN)
03/26/96 2899 (S) FIN RPT CS 4DP 3NR FORTHCOMING
03/27/96 (S) RLS AT 12:00 PM FAHRENKAMP RM 203
03/27/96 2922 (S) FIN CS RECEIVED NEW TITLE
04/02/96 3011 (S) FISCAL NOTE (DPS)
03/26/96 2899 (S) ZERO FISCAL NOTE TO CS (CORR)
03/26/96 2899 (S) PREVIOUS ZERO FISCAL NOTE (LAW)
04/02/96 3013 (S) RULES RPT 3CAL 2NR 4/2/96
04/02/96 3016 (S) READ THE SECOND TIME
04/02/96 3016 (S) FIN CS ADOPTED Y18 N1 A1
04/02/96 3018 (S) AM TO AM NO 1 MOVED BY RIEGER
04/02/96 3018 (S) AM TO AM NO 1 FAILED Y6 N14
04/02/96 3019 (S) AM NO 1 ADOPTED Y12 N8
04/02/96 3019 (S) AM NO 2 FAILED Y10 N10
04/02/96 3020 (S) AM NO 3 ADOPTED Y11 N9
04/02/96 3021 (S) AM NO 4 FAILED Y9 N11
04/02/96 3021 (S) ADVANCE TO THIRD READING FAILED Y12 N8
04/02/96 3022 (S) THIRD READING 4/3 CALENDAR
04/03/96 3049 (S) MOTION TO HOLD TO 4/10 CAL
04/03/96 3049 (S) 3RD RDG HELD TO 4/10 CALENDAR Y11 N8 E1
04/10/96 3126 (S) READ THE THIRD TIME CSSB 177(FIN) AM
04/10/96 3126 (S) RET TO 2ND TO RESCIND PREV ACTN Y12 N8
04/10/96 3127 (S) MOTION TO RESCIND ACTION ADPTG AM 3
04/10/96 3127 (S) FLD TO RESCIND ACTION ADPTG AM 3 Y10
N10
04/10/96 3127 (S) AUTOMATICALLY IN THIRD READING
04/10/96 3127 (S) PASSED Y12 N8
04/10/96 3127 (S) DUNCAN NOTICE OF RECONSIDERATION
04/11/96 3148 (S) FISCAL NOTE TO FIN CS (DPS)
04/11/96 3159 (S) RECON TAKEN UP - IN THIRD READING
04/11/96 3159 (S) PASSED ON RECONSIDERATION Y13 N7
04/11/96 3176 (S) TRANSMITTED TO (H)
04/12/96 3689 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)
04/12/96 3689 (H) JUDICIARY, FINANCE
04/12/96 3720 (H) CROSS SPONSOR(S): JAMES, KELLY
04/12/96 (H) JUD AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 120
BILL: HB 198
SHORT TITLE: ALLOWABLE ABSENCES FOR PERM FUND DIVIDEND
SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) ELTON, Robinson, Davies, Ivan
JRN-DATE JRN-PG ACTION
02/27/95 487 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)
02/27/95 487 (H) STATE AFFAIRS, JUDICIARY, FINANCE
03/28/96 (H) STA AT 8:15 AM CAPITOL 102
03/28/96 (H) MINUTE(STA)
04/04/96 (H) STA AT 8:00 AM CAPITOL 102
04/04/96 (H) MINUTE(STA)
04/09/96 (H) STA AT 8:00 AM CAPITOL 102
04/09/96 (H) MINUTE(STA)
04/11/96 (H) STA AT 8:00 AM CAPITOL 102
04/11/96 (H) MINUTE(STA)
04/12/96 (H) JUD AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 120
WITNESS REGISTER
BRET HUBER, Legislative Staff
to Senator Lyda Green
Alaska State Legislature
Capitol Building, Room 423
Juneau, Alaska 99801-1182
Telephone: (907) 465-6600
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on SB 177
CHRIS SULLIVAN
4155 McLean Place
Anchorage, Alaska 99504
Telephone: (907) 337-3075
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on SB 177
JANET OATES
Providence Health Systems
P.O. Box 196604
Anchorage, Alaska 99519
Telephone: (907) 261-4946
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on SB 177
ED EARNHART
1043 West 78th Avenue
Anchorage, Alaska 99518
Telephone: (907) 349-1160
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on SB 177
JOE NAVA
469 NRA Lane
Fairbanks, Alaska 99709
Telephone: (907) 479-2340
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on SB 177
FRANCIS HERMAN
262 Gold Claim Avenue
Fairbanks, Alaska 99712
Telephone: (907) 457-2733
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on SB 177
HORACE BLACK
P.O. Box 807704
Fairbanks, Alaska 99708
Telephone: (907) 457-7300
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on SB 177
DOUGLAS RHODES
P.O. Box 110
Glennallen, Alaska 99588
Telephone: (907) 822-3663
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on SB 177
JANE WINEINGER
P.O. Box 1111
Chickaloon, Alaska
Telephone: (907) 745-2093
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on SB 177
LEONARD TOOP
P.O. Box 2982
Palmer, Alaska 99645
Telephone: (907) 745-0386
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on SB 177
DEL SMITH, Deputy Commissioner
Department of Public Safety
P.O. Box 111200
Juneau, Alaska 99811-1200
Telephone: (907) 465-4322
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on SB 177
JAYNE ANDREEN, Executive Director
Council on Domestic Violence and Sexual Assault
Box 111200
Juneau, Alaska 99801
Telephone: (907) 465-4356
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on SB 177
LAUREE HUGONIN, Executive Director
Alaska Network on Domestic Violence
and Sexual Assault
130 Seward Street, Room 501
Juneau, Alaska 99801
Telephone: (907) 465-4356
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on SB 177
REPRESENTATIVE KIM ELTON
Alaska State Legislature
State Capitol, Room 9
Juneau, Alaska 99801-1182
Telephone: (907) 465-4947
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HB 198
ACTION NARRATIVE
TAPE 96-50, SIDE A
Number 000
CHAIRMAN BRIAN PORTER called the House Judiciary committee meeting
to order at 1:20 p.m. Members present at the call to order were
Representatives Green, Toohey and Finkelstein. Representatives
Bunde and Davis arrived at their respective times; 1:25 p.m. and
1:30 p.m. Representative Vezey was absent.
SB 177 - CONCEALED HANDGUN PERMITS/ GUNS ON FERRY
CHAIRMAN PORTER introduced the first bill for consideration which
was SB 177 and noted that staff from the sponsor's office was ready
to testify about the bill. This person came forward.
Number 088
BRET HUBER, Staff to Senator Green noted that Senator Green was on
the Senate Floor and could not be in attendance. Senator Green
brought this legislation after hearing from many constituents, both
permit holders and non-permit holders, firearm instructors and
firearms rights advocacy groups who all felt that the current
concealed handgun permit system in Alaska needed some revision.
Provisions in SB 177 would revise Alaska's Concealed Handgun Permit
(CHP) program in order to provide a more streamlined and less
costly process for obtaining a permit, as well as greater latitude
for law abiding citizens to exercise their right to carry concealed
handguns.
MR. HUBER thought it was important to note that public testimony in
both the Senate and the House on this bill has been very supportive
of the reduction in the permit costs, providing reciprocity
agreements and also removing some of the limitations on where a
permit holder is allowed to carry. It's also important to remember
when talking about CHP holders that these are law abiding Alaskans
that have met the program application criteria, submitted to finger
printing and background checks, received professional training on
the use of firearms, informed of the laws relating to firearms, the
use of deadly force, they've displayed competency and are qualified
with their firearms.
MR. HUBER asked the committee that while they consider this
legislation to remember and differentiate between a law abiding
permit holder's rights to carry concealed and the proper use of a
firearm and those who would use a firearm improperly. He then
offered to outline Sections of the bill.
Number 235
MR. HUBER stated that Section 1 provides for reciprocity of holders
of permits with other states who honor Alaska permits as determined
by the Department of Public Safety (DPS.) Section 2 provides an
affirmative defense to AS 11.61.220 that would allow a permit
holder to possess a firearm in an establishment with a beverage
dispensary license providing no alcohol is consumed while at the
establishment and the permit holder has a blood alcohol level not
exceeding .04. Section 3 provides that a permit holder may request
a blood or breath alcohol test at the expense of the permit holder
in order to determine the blood alcohol level for use in the
affirmative offense provided for in Section 2. Section 4 requires
the DPS to provide CHB applicants a copy of the laws and
regulations related to concealed handguns.
MR. HUBER continued that Section 5 extends the department's time
period to approve or reject an application to 30 days after receipt
of an application. Section 6 deletes the requirement that the
permit display the specific caliber qualified which corresponds to
the change in Section 8. Section 7 of the bill removes AS
11.61.110 (a) (1) and (2). These are noise related disorderly
conduct misdemeanors that preclude obtaining or would be grounds
for revoking a permit. Section 8 is a language change
corresponding with a change made in Section 3.
MR. HUBER added that Section 9 removes the requirement to qualify
for a specific caliber while maintaining the requirement to qualify
specific to action type. Section 10 takes the fee cap from the
current amount of $125 to $99 on an initial application and from
$60 to $30 on the renewal of an application. Section 11 changes
the reasons for revoking a concealed handgun permit by limiting
misdemeanant violations to those listed in Section 6. Section 12
removes restrictions on where a permit holder is allowed to carry
other than schools and school grounds, state court facilities,
correctional facilities, law enforcement facilities, domestic
violence and sexual abuse facilities and where disallowed by state
statute and federal law.
MR. HUBER stated that Section 13 contains a language change
corresponding to the specific caliber deletion provided in Section
8. Section 14 deletes the prohibition on Derringers and miniature
handguns as allowable firearms for concealed carry. Section 15
provides a statutory authority for the Marine Highway System to
continue it's current policy of firearms possession. Section 16
provides repealers of the following, the two Class A misdemeanors
other than those listed, the residency requirement and the late fee
for renewal.
Number 465
REPRESENTATIVE JOSEPH GREEN asked about someone no longer needing
to qualify through bore, but just action type. He asked Mr. Huber
to explain why this would be, that a person could qualify with a 22
caliber automatic and still be entitled to conceal a 45.
MR. HUBER noted that what is currently required is to qualify with
a fractional caliber. There are two schools of thought, the first
is that these are weapons which people are choosing to carry for
self defense. It is only reasonable that they are going to choose
to carry something they are going to handle or else it won't
provide them self defense protection. The second is that someone
can qualify now with a 44 for example, yet a 357 magnum is a more
powerful handgun with a bigger kick. The fractional calibers don't
necessarily equate into what's easier or harder to handle.
Number 553
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN noted that going from a light load 44 to a 357
magnum is certainly a lot closer than going from a 22 to a 44
magnum. He was concerned that if someone decided to carry
something of a lighter bore after qualifying for a heavier bore
makes sense, but to go the other way gave him some heartburn.
MR. HUBER stated that they had heard from a lot of people who made
the point that they been through the permit process and qualified
with a 38 special, for example, but later determined that they'd
rather carry a automatic in a 45 caliber. This precludes them from
being able to do this even though they feel comfortable with this
caliber. These people made the argument that they were making the
choice to carry these weapons for personal protection and they
didn't want to make the choice to carry a weapon which they can't
handle.
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN stated that he was still concerned about this
issue and that these people certainly have the right to change
their minds to carry a weapon with a higher bore, but they should
be qualified to do so. "It's kind of like saying I'm going to
learn to drive a Toyota, but then I may want to drive a diesel semi
too and since I know how to drive and keep it on the right side of
the road it should be O.K."
REPRESENTATIVE TOOHEY asked if there was any way to upgrade without
taking a class all over again. She stated that she was qualified
for a 45 and wondered if there was a way for her to go up to a
magnum.
CHAIRMAN PORTER answered that under current regulations she would
qualify for a 45, but the magnum load does not matter. It's the
caliber and type.
Number 735
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN noted the reduction of fees slated with this
legislation and asked if these reduced fees were enough to cover
the cost of the permit program.
MR. HUBER stated that according to the Department of Public Safety
and the current fiscal note, that after costs they will still leave
$40 for administrative costs and they say that (indisc. - cross
talking) self-sufficient.
Number 808
CHRIS SULLIVAN testified by teleconference from Anchorage on SB
177. Initially he stated that he would like the law changed to
reflect that any other state that issues concealed weapons permits
should be allowed to carry a permit in Alaska, straight across the
board, not as determined by the Department of Public Safety. He
also added that the Department of Public Safety should be required
to seek out other states to enable reciprocity with Alaska.
REPRESENTATIVE CON BUNDE asked if Mr. Sullivan had knowledge of
other state's requirements and wondered if they were substantially
similar.
MR. SULLIVAN made the presumption that other states were going to
be as careful with their laws as Alaska is with theirs.
CHAIRMAN PORTER said he would hate to presume these types of
things. He noted that there are 40 states with permits and 40
different laws, with requirements and qualifications. He thought
that probably most people in Alaska would be concerned if a state
for example, didn't have a background check as a requirement for
this permit as Alaska does.
MR. SULLIVAN thought that if reciprocity was researched these types
of questions would be answered.
Number 1052
JANET OATES, Providence Health Systems, testified by teleconference
on SB 177 and referred to language on page 6, line 17 in the Senate
version and asked to have the following language inserted
"including all health care facilities." She noted that they had
several reasons to request this change. They want people to know
ahead of time before they go into any of their hospital facilities
that they can't bring in weapons.
REPRESENTATIVE CYNTHIA TOOHEY stated that she had a bad feeling
about this, especially in an emergency room environment and noted
that many people in the emergency rooms are undercover detectives,
policeman, etc. Most times they don't have the time to remove
these handguns in order to satisfy such a condition.
MS. OATES responded that their emergency room staff came to her in
order to support this concept since they have had incidences when
administering to a patient that a loaded gun has fallen to the
floor. Also, in waiting rooms they've had a lot of complaints
about gang members hanging out who could possibly be armed. She
also mentioned a suicide in one of their rest rooms. Not a day
goes by that they don't attend to a victim of domestic violence,
but they are not in the security business, but rather the healing
business. She acknowledged that the participants testifying have
applied for concealed weapon permits and they would probably be
willing to respect this exclusion in a hospital, much like an
airport disallows weapons.
Number 1300
ED EARNHART testified by teleconference from Anchorage on SB 177.
He stated that the original legislation regarding concealed weapons
was passed just a few years ago and they should try this out for a
while. He thought that the concept of reciprocity was nonsensical.
He said he supported the amendment regarding health facilities.
Number 1360
JOE NAVA testified by teleconference from Fairbanks regarding SB
177. Mr. Nava stated that he has been teaching handgun safety
classes since the inception of the original legislation. He has
graduated about 1000 people out of the program, a third of which
are women. He said his students are wonderful people and they are
law abiding. The holder of a permit has had background checks and
shouldn't be worried about. He asked the committee to be less
restrictive, if any changes are made to the bill. It seemed to him
that if someone qualified with a semi-automatic center fire and a
revolver center fire, they then should be able to carry (indisc. -
paper shuffling) concealed, in other words a Derringer or whatever.
He noted that a Derringer is a safe gun, single action, cocked
before fired and able to be concealed.
MR. NAVA said in relation to where these individuals can carry guns
it seemed reasonable to him that if someone has been through this
program and receives an Alaska concealed hand gun permit, they
should be able to carry this gun concealed anywhere they can
legally carry it openly. He mentioned that the existing program is
working well and he applauded the Department of Safety. In
response to what types of gun use is allowed through the permitting
program, Mr. Nava said that part of the curriculum does cover the
different types of guns and their uses.
Number 1614
FRANCIS HERMAN testified by teleconference from Fairbanks regarding
SB 177. He stated that many of those persons who are accepted
under the concealed weapons laws and regulations are some of the
most responsible persons in any community. HB 338 and SB 177 was
originally written without the tacked on amendments to provide the
protection for those people who are no threat to others. Elongated
regulations serve nothing more than to restrict responsible
citizens. He made the argument that the more restrict these are,
the more law abiding citizens will be made into criminals.
Number 1720
HORACE BLACK testified by teleconference from Fairbanks on SB 177.
He stated that he also has been teaching hand gun classes since the
inception of this original legislation. Mr. Black said he
generally supports what Mr. Nava said because his students have all
been law abiding, responsible citizens. He stated that he would
rather not have either of these two bills pass with the amendments
that have been made.
CHAIRMAN PORTER noted that the changes to HB 338 and SB 177 could
only be characterized as loosening the restrictions and lowering
the price of permitting.
MR. BLACK responded that there was some loosening of the
legislation, but there was some tightening too, such as the
restriction of drinking 8 hours prior to carrying a concealed hand
gun. He believed that anyone intoxicated who carries a gun cannot
make adequate decisions.
CHAIRMAN PORTER stated that "that provision was put in so as to
eliminate the prohibition about being able to take a concealed fire
arm with a permit of course, into a restaurant or a cocktail lounge
and have dinner and have to leave it in the car. That was the
compromise to provide that expansion of where it is you may carry."
Number 2020
DOUGLAS RHODES testified by teleconference from Glennallen on SB
177. He stated that he supports lowering the fees. The existing
fees make it so only people with enough money can get a permit. If
someone is poor they can't afford to carry a concealed hand gun.
He said he'd like to see Alaska honor and other states honor their
concealed hand gun permits. Those persons who carry a CHP have
been checked and re-checked and they are probably the most
responsible citizens in society. He also added that people who
already have a permit are not going to carry a heavier caliber or
a lighter caliber than they know they can handle. He also opposed
the restrictions of where people can carry concealed hand guns. In
terms of the alcohol restrictions, he suggested a breathalyzer
limit. To say someone can't have a glass of wine with dinner is
absurd.
Number 2160
REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE referred to reciprocity with other states and
asked Mr. Rhodes if he was familiar with all the other programs
which grant concealed carry.
MR. RHODES said that any state that he knows of that has permits
are harder to get than in Alaska.
REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE mentioned the cost of the program and the
required paper work. He asked if Mr. Rhodes would prefer that the
state bear the cost of the concealed carry class.
MR. RHODES didn't know if the state should bear this cost, but he
did know that it was way too expensive for a lot of people to pay
the cost of the instructor and then to pay the state for the
license.
REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE noted that he understood this program was
expensive, but if the state's going to pay for it then he said he
was going to have to ask Mr. Rhodes to pay an income tax in order
for these poor people to get their permit.
Number 2254
JANE WINEINGER testified by teleconference from Matsu on SB 177.
She stated that she works for the National Rifle Association, is a
long time resident of Alaska and is a permit holder. She stated
that currently under reciprocity there are three states which
accept Alaska's permit system as it stands; these are Idaho,
Wyoming and Michigan. There are a number of states which have less
restrictions than Alaska for example, in Washington state someone
can apply for a permit as an out-of-state resident and get a permit
right away.
MS. WINEINGER also commented on the health care provider who
testified earlier. Gang members in a hospital are probably not
permit holders or they don't obey laws. She has taught a lot of
NRA members who are also nurses and health care providers.
MS. WINEINGER noted that the legislation before the committee
reflected the reform to the current law which the constituents and
the gun owners in the state want. Input to this bill came from all
over the state. Permit holders want less cost for applications,
reciprocity with other states and the legal right to carry an
additional (indisc.) for their own safety. The current law does
not directly deal with the consumption of alcohol and carrying
concealed. She stated that she was perplexed why amendments have
been added to both these bills which would add obtuse language
concerning this issue. House Bill 338 contains an unenforceable 8
hour prohibition against consumption and carrying. She fears that
the current language would only be an excuse to hold someone's
permit.
This 8 hour language is not reasonable.
MS. WINEINGER stated that CSSB 177 addresses the subject of a blood
alcohol level of .04 and to be over this limit would be a
violation. She felt as though this language was more reasonable
and enforceable. Consumption of alcohol and carrying a firearm
either under permit or open carrying is against the law, period.
Curiously, the addition of the 8 hour prohibition version or the
blood alcohol test language does not apply to open carrying. Once
again permit holders are asked to endure redundant, abstract
language which shouldn't be in these reform bills. She asked that
the committee support and pass SB 177.
Number 2389
LEONARD TOOP testified by teleconference from Matsu on SB 177. He
stated that he supports this legislation as well as, the
reciprocity language and the lowering of fees. He supports the
testing of the blood alcohol if it becomes a factor in a concealed
weapons carry. He didn't think an 8 hour limit was feasible and
didn't believe it could be enforced. There was some lengthy
discussion between the witness and Representative Bunde comparing
the restrictions of pilots to fly as to concealed carry situations.
TAPE 96-50, SIDE B
Number 012
DEL SMITH, Deputy Commissioner, Department of Public Safety
testified against SB 177. In January of 1995, this administration
inherited this law. They worked very hard to address the concerns
then regarding this current law and he has not heard many
complaints about it. The current rate for the permitting program
is $122 and by regulation and statute this could be reduced if they
thought they could operate on less. They would certainly be
willing to look at this. They believe they can probably get by
with this $99 figure. The intent was that this program would be
self-supporting. He noted that there are $59 dollars in driven
costs for FBI, computerized checks and fingerprinting. The other
$40 is left to fund two positions. The department used to have 12
people in Permits and Licensing. He felt as though he couldn't go
any lower than this and provide any level of service, as well as
meet the time lines set in this legislation.
MR. SMITH stated that the bottom line is that the department is
opposed to any changes in the current law. They think it's working
very well as established.
Number 185
JAYNE ANDREEN, Executive Director, Council on Domestic Violence and
Sexual Assault testified on SB 177. The Council feels as though
the existing law is working quite well. The Council is aware that
concealed weapon permits are a needed standard for law abiding
citizens in the best world. The reality is that because of the
cycle of domestic violence the perpetrators are very often not
charged with crimes, one, because the victim does not report
offenses to law enforcement for a variety of reasons and two, quite
often there is no arrest which takes place. There are other
pending pieces of legislation which would help address these types
of situations.
MS. ANDREEN stated that it's their concern that domestic violence
offenders, because many of them don't have criminal records, will
be and currently are eligible for concealed weapon permits. Once
they obtain a permit they represent a greater risk to the victims.
"One of the things that we were pleased with in the Senate version
that I noticed in today's work draft has been removed, is the
exemption for concealed hand guns to be taken into a facility
providing services to victims of domestic violence and sexual
assault. We are very concerned that the shelter programs and safe
home programs need to be a place that concealed weapons cannot be
brought in."
Number 348
REPRESENTATIVE TOOHEY asked Ms. Andreen if she honestly felt that
a person abused by their spouse for an extended period of time,
that law enforcement, etc. are not aware of problems in these
situations. This cannot go unnoticed.
MS. ANDREEN said she knew for a fact that many domestic violence
offenders have not been brought to the attention of law enforcement
and/or the court systems. She noted that this was part of the
cycle of what happens. There are so many reasons why a victim
would not want to report. Unlike other types of assault that are
isolated, domestic violence is an on-going cycle. Since the
governor introduced the domestic violence bill, her offices have
been receiving a lot more contacts from victims around the state.
A number of women have stated that they were in an abusive
relationship, sometimes for twelve years, but it wasn't until the
third time that a spouse pulled a gun on them did they decide to
call the police.
Number 348
REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE stated that he was sensitive to Ms. Andreen's
concerns, but noted that many of these abusive situations involve
knives, physical beatings, automobiles, etc. He didn't see that
eliminating guns (indisc. - trailed off.)
LAUREE HUGONIN, Executive Director, Alaska Network on Domestic
Violence and Sexual Assault testified on SB 177. She stated that
the Network's concern was the deletion of the facilities as a
listed place where people are not allowed to carry concealed. One
of the things they appreciated about both the bills is that they
have a requirement that where people who apply for the permits
would get a copy of the laws and regulations which outline their
responsibilities as permit holders. The network felt as though
this was good because it would clearly state, and there wouldn't be
any question in anyone's mind, that facilities for domestic
violence and sexual assault intervention would be places off
limits. The network respectfully requests that some serious
consideration be given to adding the facilities back in as a listed
prohibitive place.
Number 300
REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE stated that he assumed her comments addressed
males visiting woman in shelters and asked if they would require
that the residents of the facilities also not be able to carry
concealed.
MS. HUGONIN answered that on their premises they don't currently
allow weapons concealed or otherwise. If the residents need to
bring weapons when they initially come, the shelter asks that they
be turned over and in some instances these weapons are kept at the
local police station until the resident is able to relocate. They
don't currently allow any weapons now and aren't going to. All the
facilities are united in not wanting weapons on their premises.
REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE responded then that essentially they accept
responsibility for the safety of the residents. "They can't
protect themselves, you're going to protect them."
MS. HUGONIN stated that "yes, we are a safe facility, so we do do
everything that we can to protect people. We have security systems
in place, we try to take the safeguards that are possible to
prevent anyone from coming on the premises that would try to harm
any other person." She noted that they are not responsible for
people's individual behaviors, but they do have safety mechanisms
in place.
Number 384
CHAIRMAN PORTER closed the public testimony. He noted the new CS
before the committee and he requested to speak to this version. In
terms of the entire bill, Chairman Porter referred to a few
individuals who asked that nothing be done to change this existing
law. He stated that he fell into this same area. Along with
everyone else, he put a lot of work into this law two years ago.
It has only been in place a little over a year and he quite frankly
didn't think enough time has been given to the existing system of
doing things. With this in mind, he attended meetings during the
interim and in State Affairs and now presently. If there was any
consistency of testimony it was that the lowering of the fees was
desirable and a loosening of the restrictions on where a permitted
person may carry their hand gun. The original bills leading up to
the CS before the committee were insulting to him in that they
stripped everything that they did two years ago in terms of
background checks, training, and qualifications. These areas in
both bills has been fixed for the most part, but not totally.
CHAIRMAN PORTER asked the committee to consider as their working
document the CS developed in the State Affairs Committee. This CS
basically takes the existing law, reduces the cost from $125 to
$99, it expands as they received testimony on the desire of someone
to go into a restaurant that has a beverage dispensary permit
holder to have dinner. Under existing law this not allowed. There
was an awful lot of discussion and not withstanding the testimony
received today, .04 is a very hard thing to establish as opposed to
an eight hour restriction which is pretty easy to establish. If
someone has alcohol on their breath and carrying concealed, they've
been drinking in the past eight hours. No question about it. If
someone saw the individual drinking and carrying, this is enough
for a charge. .04 on the other hand is difficult because the
offense would be .04 at the time that a person was carrying. Quite
often the breathalyzer is taken sometime after this. He noted that
the eight hour period is standard procedure and mentioned that this
is also the standard for flying.
Number 581
REPRESENTATIVE TOOHEY asked what the absorption of one glass of
wine over a one to two hour lunch was.
CHAIRMAN PORTER stated that this glass of wine would probably
dissipate totally after three hours.
REPRESENTATIVE TOOHEY noted that a glass of wine, by medical
standards, is a necessity to stay healthy.
CHAIRMAN PORTER said that he has heard this not as an absolute, but
as a suggestion.
Number 620
CHAIRMAN PORTER asked Mr. Huber if the language regarding banks was
included in both bills. Mr. Huber's response was not audible. The
remaining loosening which Chairman Porter didn't particularly
subscribe to in the Senate version was "the reduction, once you,
when you're qualifying to just type rather, than caliber and type."
Because someone has qualified with a 22 doesn't necessarily make
someone able to carry a 45. He did not subscribe to the argument
that if someone is permitted for one type, they would have sense
enough to carry the correct gun. He asked, "what's wrong with
being sure?"
Number 692
REPRESENTATIVE DAVID FINKELSTEIN made a motion to adopt CSSB
177(STA), version H.
REPRESENTATIVE TOOHEY objected. A roll call vote was taken.
Representatives Bunde, Green, Finkelstein, Davis and Porter voted
yes. Representative Toohey voted no. The motion to adopt CSSB
177(STA), version H was adopted as the House Judiciary Committee's
working draft.
Number 698
CHAIRMAN PORTER then addressed Amendment number one for
consideration. This amendment read as follows:
Page 7, line 4 - 7:
Delete "where notice that carrying a concealed handgun is
prohibited has been given by the posting of a conspicuous notice or
by oral statement by the resident to the permittee"
Insert ", other than the permittee's residence, unless the
permittee has first obtained the express permission to bring a
concealed handgun into the residence from an adult residing there
[WHERE NOTICE THAT CARRYING A CONCEALED HANDGUN IS PROHIBITED HAS
BEEN GIVEN BY THE POSTING OF A CONSPICUOUS NOTICE OR BY ORAL
STATEMENT BY THE RESIDENT TO THE PERMITTEE]"
CHAIRMAN PORTER continued to explain the intent behind this
amendment. "Within both bills was a requirement basically to the
extent that those areas where we didn't specifically say you can't
carry a gun in here we said, but if you own a business or another
property or domestic violence shelter or a home and you don't want
someone with a permit to carry that into an establishment or into
your residence, that you can post it. While it is probably
inconvenient for businesses to post, it is in my mind ridiculous to
say that a person who owns a house must place a notice on his or
her door that they don't want guns in there."
CHAIRMAN PORTER explained that this amendment would reverse this.
If someone is a permittee and they want to go into someone home and
don't know whether or not they care, this person would be required
to put on notice this home owner that they were carrying concealed.
It reversed this requirement.
Number 865
REPRESENTATIVE FINKELSTEIN made a motion to move this amendment
number one. He noted that he wouldn't post something on his door,
but he would certainly like to know if someone in his house was
carrying a concealed weapon. Representative Toohey objected. A
roll call vote was taken. Representatives Bunde, Green,
Finkelstein, Davis and Porter voted yes. Representative Toohey
voted no. Amendment number one passed.
Number 979
REPRESENTATIVE FINKELSTEIN made a motion to move amendment number
two which read as follows:
Section 10, page 7, line 19, Amend 18.65.755(a) by adding a new
subsection 9 to read as follows:
"a health care facility: in this paragraph, "health care facility"
means hospital, nursing home, public health center, outpatient
clinic, facility for the developmentally disabled, rehabilitation
facility, drug abuse and alcoholism treatment facility, mental
health center, or health care unit within a sheltered are a home or
within a home for senior citizens."
REPRESENTATIVE FINKELSTEIN stated that he wouldn't go into great
detail regarding this amendment since there was already a fair
amount of discussion concerning this issue and a compelling case
was presented to support it.
REPRESENTATIVE TOOHEY objected and requested to speak to this
objection. She noted a rape incident of a co-worker while working
at Providence Hospital in a parking lot. Representative Toohey
said that when she goes into a parking lot she has the right to
protect herself.
CHAIRMAN PORTER requested a roll call vote. Representatives Green,
Finkelstein, Davis and Porter voted yes. Representatives Bunde and
Toohey voted no. Amendment number two passed.
Number 1112
REPRESENTATIVE FINKELSTEIN referred to page 7, line 2 and 3 and he
wished to offer an amendment to delete the deletion, to just
restore the original law as follows:
"A facility providing services to victims of domestic violence or
sexual assault."
CHAIRMAN PORTER offered that this amendment would be called number
3. Representative Toohey objected. A roll call vote was taken.
Representatives Finkelstein, Davis, Bunde, Green and Porter voted
yes. Representative Toohey voted no. Amendment number 3 passed.
Number 1189
REPRESENTATIVE FINKELSTEIN referred to page 6, line 11 and 12, and
suggested to delete the reduction in the dollar amounts. First of
all he objected to the fixed fees. They fail to account for
inflation, it creates a situation where if the fees don't cover the
cost they regularly have to jack them up. The current law already
allows a ceiling. Even if they can provide these programs under
these amounts right now, it's guaranteed two years from now they
won't. His second objection was to the amount of $99 and likened
it to selling something in a grocery store. He stated that it was
embarrassing and made the point that they have to start paying for
the cost of government.
REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE referred to previous testimony that even after
the present cost of the what is being charged now for the program,
$40 was still left over. Whatever this program costs, that's what
ought to be charged.
CHAIRMAN PORTER stated that they had discussed this issues at
length in the State Affairs Committee meeting. The troopers are
trying to meld the people who operate this program with people who
do work in other license programs. It's hard to say how much this
program costs. He believed that Deputy Commissioner Smith
testified that the department felt they could do the program for
$99.
CHAIRMAN PORTER spoke against the amendment from the standpoint of,
one, the department now says that they can do this program within
this $99 figure and secondly, the overwhelming amount of testimony
from the people affected had asked them to look at trying to reduce
the cost. If the cost can be reduced and within the cost to the
state, this is a reasonable thing to do. More importantly, the
Chairman of the previous committee wanted to get the cost down
under $100. She tried and tried, she finally said $99. If for no
other reason, for Chairman James, he spoke against the amendment.
Number 1504
REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE voiced his concern that if the state doesn't
like a program they try to price it out of reach. He has noticed
this in the legislative process as well. If the administration
doesn't like a bill they try to price it out of existence.
REPRESENTATIVE FINKELSTEIN asked to revise his amendment number 4
to change the total from $99 to $100. Representative Toohey
objected. A roll call vote was taken. Representatives Bunde,
Green and Finkelstein voted yes. Representatives Davis, Toohey and
Porter voted no. Amendment number 4 failed.
REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE offered an amendment number 5 to change the
figure of this clause from $99 to $90 along with the explanation
that if the goal was to achieve confidence in the public, he
suggested this figure. Representatives Toohey and Davis objected.
A roll call vote was taken. Representatives Bunde and Green voted
yes. Representatives Davis, Toohey, Finkelstein and Porter voted
no. Amendment number 5 failed.
REPRESENTATIVE BETTYE DAVIS made the argument that the permit
program with a built-in maximum of $125 was a working system
because the department was presently charging less than this and
the cap acts as a cushion. It was decided that once the Department
of Public Safety came up with a figure of actual costs of the
program then maybe an amendment could be brought to the floor to
finally decide this cost issue.
Number 1836
REPRESENTATIVE TOOHEY stated that she would like to discuss Section
12, on page 7, line 25 regarding a permittee not being allowed to
carry a concealed handgun in public while consuming alcohol or
within 8 hours after consuming. She asked if this was true for
people who were not carrying concealed such as, rifles, knives,
etc.
CHAIRMAN PORTER noted that it was illegal for anyone to control a
firearm while someone is intoxicated. It is also illegal to carry
a firearm into a licensed premise. This language was the much
discussed quid pro quo for eliminating guns in a bar.
Number 1890
MR. HUBER came forward to speak to this section. "The quid pro quo
or the trade-off as you were referring to (indisc. - paper
shuffling) establishment with a licensed as a beverage dispensary
is contained in the section of the bill which deals with the
beverage dispensary license. This section reaches farther than
just premises with a beverage dispensary license and this says
anywhere and the sponsor's feelings to this amendment are, it again
takes the class of people who are just concealed permits holders
and holds them to a different standard than anybody else with a
firearm or somebody carrying concealed legally in this state while
they're out in the field hunting, fishing or trapping."
CHAIRMAN PORTER noted that this wasn't the intent. He asked where
the language was that would disallow eight hours or drinking within
a licensed premise.
MR. HUBER said he believed this was section 2 of this bill and
noted that the sponsor did prepare an amendment which would delete
this section.
CHAIRMAN PORTER stated that the quid pro quo for this restriction
was based on the premise that going into a cocktail lounge is a
extra, added problem, because problems do occur in these places.
This was the thinking, to make this very clear that someone should
not be drinking if they are in one of these establishments and
carrying a weapon. Consequently, he stated that the chair would
not be opposed to deleting this Section 12.
Number 2049
REPRESENTATIVE TOOHEY made a motion to adopt this as amendment
number 6. Amendment number 6 would delete Section 12 on page 7.
REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE confirmed that if this section was deleted, it
would return the standard to existing law where an individual
carrying a concealed weapon would be held accountable like any
other type of user, such as a hunter who is not allowed to operate
a firearm while intoxicated.
CHAIRMAN PORTER stated that the effect of what they were doing was
to continue to say that if someone intends to go into a beverage
dispensary, licensed premise this person cannot drink while they're
there or for eight hours before this person enters such premises.
There being no objection, amendment number 6 passed.
Number 2300
REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE made a motion to move CSSB 177(STA), version
H as amended from the House Judiciary Committee with individual
recommendations and attached fiscal note. There being no
objection, it was so moved.
HB 198 - PFD ALLOWABLE ABSENCES
REPRESENTATIVE KIM ELTON came forward to testify on CSHB 198(STA).
He stated that the bill does three things, it provides for new
allowable absences from the state, which are to care for a family
member with a critical, life-threatening illness; to care for a
terminally-ill family member; or for the purpose of selling the
estate of a deceased family member. (Some of Representative
Elton's testimony was cut off, due to the end of the tape.)
TAPE 96-51, SIDE A
Number 085
REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE asked Representative Elton if he envisioned
someone going out-of-state to care for someone who is comatose,
someone who could remain so for the rest of their life.
REPRESENTATIVE ELTON noted that Mr. McGee, Chief, Permanent Fund
Dividend Division Operations, might be better able to answer this
question. Chairman Porter stated that for the record Mr. McGee
nodded his head in the affirmative. A person caring for someone
who is comatose would have to come back to the state every two
years in order to qualify for a Permanent Fund Dividend.
Number 145
REPRESENTATIVE TOOHEY asked how many people would be out-of-state
for two years with a terminally ill person. She thought that this
was stretching it. She thought this period of time would be more
like three to four months.
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN made a motion to move CSHB 198(STA) from the
House Judiciary Committee with individual recommendations and
attached fiscal note. There being no objection, it was so moved.
ADJOURNMENT
CHAIRMAN PORTER adjourned the House Judiciary Committee meeting at
3:00 p.m.
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