Legislature(1995 - 1996)

04/12/1996 01:20 PM JUD

Audio Topic
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
               HOUSE JUDICIARY STANDING COMMITTEE                              
                         April 12, 1996                                        
                           1:20 p.m.                                           
 MEMBERS PRESENT                                                               
 Representative Brian Porter, Chairman                                         
 Representative Joe Green, Vice Chairman                                       
 Representative Con Bunde                                                      
 Representative Bettye Davis                                                   
 Representative Cynthia Toohey                                                 
 Representative David Finkelstein                                              
 MEMBERS ABSENT                                                                
 Representative Al Vezey                                                       
 COMMITTEE CALENDAR                                                            
 SENATE BILL 177                                                               
 "An Act relating to permits to carry concealed handguns; and                  
 relating to possession of firearms on state ferries."                         
      - CSSB 177(STA) MOVED FROM COMMITTEE                                     
 HOUSE BILL 198                                                                
 "An Act relating to absences from the state and eligibility for               
 permanent fund dividends; and providing for an effective date."               
      - CSHB 198(STA) MOVED FROM COMMITTEE                                     
 HOUSE JOINT RESOLUTION NO. 34                                                 
 Proposing an amendment to the Constitution of the State of Alaska             
 relating to the duration of a regular session.                                
      - SCHEDULED BUT NOT HEARD                                                
 PREVIOUS ACTION                                                               
 BILL:  SB 177                                                               
 SPONSOR(S): SENATOR(S) GREEN, Halford, Taylor, Donley;                        
 REPRESENTATIVE(S) James, Kelly                                                
 JRN-DATE     JRN-PG             ACTION                                        
 05/06/95      1552    (S)   READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)                 
 05/06/95      1552    (S)   STA, JUD                                          
 10/05/95              (H)   STA AT  9:00 AM ANCHORAGE LIO                     
 10/05/95              (S)   STA AT  9:00 AM ANCHORAGE LIO                     
 10/05/95              (H)   MINUTE(STA)                                       
 10/05/95              (S)   MINUTE(STA)                                       
 01/08/96      2079    (S)   COSPONSOR(S):  HALFORD                            
 01/09/96      2086    (S)   COSPONSOR(S):  TAYLOR                             
 01/12/96      2131    (S)   COSPONSOR(S):  DONLEY                             
 01/23/96              (H)   STA AT  3:30 PM BUTROVICH RM 205                  
 01/23/96              (S)   STA AT  3:30 PM BUTROVICH ROOM 205                
 01/23/96              (H)   MINUTE(STA)                                       
 01/23/96              (S)   MINUTE(STA)                                       
 01/24/96      2214    (S)   FIN REFERRAL ADDED - STA, JUD, FIN                
 02/13/96              (S)   MINUTE(STA)                                       
 02/19/96      2468    (S)   STA RPT  CS  3DP 1NR      SAME TITLE              
 02/19/96      2468    (S)   FISCAL NOTE TO SB & CS (DPS)                      
 02/19/96      2468    (S)   ZERO FISCAL NOTE TO SB & CS (LAW)                 
 02/23/96              (S)   JUD AT  4:00 PM ANCHORAGE LIO                     
 02/23/96              (S)   MINUTE(JUD)                                       
 03/06/96      2623    (S)   JUD RPT  CS  3DP 2DNP     SAME TITLE              
 03/06/96      2624    (S)   FISCAL NOTE TO CS (DPS)                           
 03/06/96      2624    (S)   ZERO FISCAL NOTE TO CS (LAW)                      
 03/22/96              (S)   FIN AT  9:00 AM SENATE FINANCE 532                
 03/22/96              (S)   MINUTE(FIN)                                       
 03/26/96      2899    (S)   FIN RPT  CS  4DP 3NR FORTHCOMING                  
 03/27/96              (S)   RLS AT 12:00 PM FAHRENKAMP RM 203                 
 03/27/96      2922    (S)   FIN CS RECEIVED           NEW TITLE               
 04/02/96      3011    (S)   FISCAL NOTE  (DPS)                                
 03/26/96      2899    (S)   ZERO FISCAL NOTE TO CS (CORR)                     
 03/26/96      2899    (S)   PREVIOUS ZERO FISCAL NOTE (LAW)                   
 04/02/96      3013    (S)   RULES RPT  3CAL 2NR   4/2/96                      
 04/02/96      3016    (S)   READ THE SECOND TIME                              
 04/02/96      3016    (S)   FIN  CS ADOPTED   Y18 N1 A1                       
 04/02/96      3018    (S)   AM TO AM NO 1 MOVED BY RIEGER                     
 04/02/96      3018    (S)   AM TO AM NO 1 FAILED Y6 N14                       
 04/02/96      3019    (S)   AM NO  1     ADOPTED Y12 N8                       
 04/02/96      3019    (S)   AM NO  2     FAILED  Y10 N10                      
 04/02/96      3020    (S)   AM NO  3     ADOPTED Y11 N9                       
 04/02/96      3021    (S)   AM NO  4     FAILED  Y9 N11                       
 04/02/96      3021    (S)   ADVANCE TO THIRD READING FAILED Y12 N8            
 04/02/96      3022    (S)   THIRD READING 4/3 CALENDAR                        
 04/03/96      3049    (S)   MOTION TO HOLD TO 4/10 CAL                        
 04/03/96      3049    (S)   3RD RDG HELD TO 4/10 CALENDAR Y11 N8 E1           
 04/10/96      3126    (S)   READ THE THIRD TIME  CSSB 177(FIN) AM             
 04/10/96      3126    (S)   RET TO 2ND TO RESCIND PREV ACTN  Y12 N8           
 04/10/96      3127    (S)   MOTION TO RESCIND ACTION ADPTG AM 3               
 04/10/96      3127    (S)   FLD TO RESCIND ACTION ADPTG AM 3 Y10              
 04/10/96      3127    (S)   AUTOMATICALLY IN THIRD READING                    
 04/10/96      3127    (S)   PASSED Y12 N8                                     
 04/10/96      3127    (S)   DUNCAN  NOTICE OF RECONSIDERATION                 
 04/11/96      3148    (S)   FISCAL NOTE TO FIN CS (DPS)                       
 04/11/96      3159    (S)   RECON TAKEN UP - IN THIRD READING                 
 04/11/96      3159    (S)   PASSED ON RECONSIDERATION Y13 N7                  
 04/11/96      3176    (S)   TRANSMITTED TO (H)                                
 04/12/96      3689    (H)   READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)                 
 04/12/96      3689    (H)   JUDICIARY, FINANCE                                
 04/12/96      3720    (H)   CROSS SPONSOR(S): JAMES, KELLY                    
 04/12/96              (H)   JUD AT  1:00 PM CAPITOL 120                       
 BILL:  HB 198                                                               
 SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) ELTON, Robinson, Davies, Ivan                   
 JRN-DATE     JRN-PG             ACTION                                        
 02/27/95       487    (H)   READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)                 
 02/27/95       487    (H)   STATE AFFAIRS, JUDICIARY, FINANCE                 
 03/28/96              (H)   STA AT  8:15 AM CAPITOL 102                       
 03/28/96              (H)   MINUTE(STA)                                       
 04/04/96              (H)   STA AT  8:00 AM CAPITOL 102                       
 04/04/96              (H)   MINUTE(STA)                                       
 04/09/96              (H)   STA AT  8:00 AM CAPITOL 102                       
 04/09/96              (H)   MINUTE(STA)                                       
 04/11/96              (H)   STA AT  8:00 AM CAPITOL 102                       
 04/11/96              (H)   MINUTE(STA)                                       
 04/12/96              (H)   JUD AT  1:00 PM CAPITOL 120                       
 WITNESS REGISTER                                                              
 BRET HUBER, Legislative Staff                                                 
   to Senator Lyda Green                                                       
 Alaska State Legislature                                                      
 Capitol Building, Room 423                                                    
 Juneau, Alaska  99801-1182                                                    
 Telephone:  (907) 465-6600                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified on SB 177                                      
 CHRIS SULLIVAN                                                                
 4155 McLean Place                                                             
 Anchorage, Alaska  99504                                                      
 Telephone:  (907) 337-3075                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified on SB 177                                      
 JANET OATES                                                                   
 Providence Health Systems                                                     
 P.O. Box 196604                                                               
 Anchorage, Alaska  99519                                                      
 Telephone:  (907) 261-4946                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified on SB 177                                      
 ED EARNHART                                                                   
 1043 West 78th Avenue                                                         
 Anchorage, Alaska 99518                                                       
 Telephone:  (907) 349-1160                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified on SB 177                                      
 JOE NAVA                                                                      
 469 NRA Lane                                                                  
 Fairbanks, Alaska  99709                                                      
 Telephone:  (907) 479-2340                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified on SB 177                                      
 FRANCIS HERMAN                                                                
 262 Gold Claim Avenue                                                         
 Fairbanks, Alaska  99712                                                      
 Telephone:  (907) 457-2733                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified on SB 177                                      
 HORACE BLACK                                                                  
 P.O. Box 807704                                                               
 Fairbanks, Alaska  99708                                                      
 Telephone:  (907) 457-7300                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified on SB 177                                      
 DOUGLAS RHODES                                                                
 P.O. Box 110                                                                  
 Glennallen, Alaska  99588                                                     
 Telephone:  (907) 822-3663                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified on SB 177                                      
 JANE WINEINGER                                                                
 P.O. Box 1111                                                                 
 Chickaloon, Alaska                                                            
 Telephone:  (907) 745-2093                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified on SB 177                                      
 LEONARD TOOP                                                                  
 P.O. Box 2982                                                                 
 Palmer, Alaska  99645                                                         
 Telephone:  (907) 745-0386                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified on SB 177                                      
 DEL SMITH, Deputy Commissioner                                                
 Department of Public Safety                                                   
 P.O. Box 111200                                                               
 Juneau, Alaska  99811-1200                                                    
 Telephone:  (907) 465-4322                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified on SB 177                                      
 JAYNE ANDREEN, Executive Director                                             
 Council on Domestic Violence and Sexual Assault                               
 Box 111200                                                                    
 Juneau, Alaska  99801                                                         
 Telephone:  (907) 465-4356                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified on SB 177                                      
 LAUREE HUGONIN, Executive Director                                            
 Alaska Network on Domestic Violence                                           
    and Sexual Assault                                                         
 130 Seward Street, Room 501                                                   
 Juneau, Alaska  99801                                                         
 Telephone:  (907) 465-4356                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT:   Testified on SB 177                                     
 REPRESENTATIVE KIM ELTON                                                      
 Alaska State Legislature                                                      
 State Capitol, Room 9                                                         
 Juneau, Alaska  99801-1182                                                    
 Telephone:  (907) 465-4947                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified on HB 198                                      
 ACTION NARRATIVE                                                              
 TAPE 96-50, SIDE A                                                            
 Number 000                                                                    
 CHAIRMAN BRIAN PORTER called the House Judiciary committee meeting            
 to order at 1:20 p.m.  Members present at the call to order were              
 Representatives Green, Toohey and Finkelstein.  Representatives               
 Bunde and Davis arrived at their respective times; 1:25 p.m. and              
 1:30 p.m.  Representative Vezey was absent.                                   
 SB 177 - CONCEALED HANDGUN PERMITS/ GUNS ON FERRY                           
 CHAIRMAN PORTER introduced the first bill for consideration which             
 was SB 177 and noted that staff from the sponsor's office was ready           
 to testify about the bill.  This person came forward.                         
 Number 088                                                                    
 BRET HUBER, Staff to Senator Green noted that Senator Green was on            
 the Senate Floor and could not be in attendance.  Senator Green               
 brought this legislation after hearing from many constituents, both           
 permit holders and non-permit holders, firearm instructors and                
 firearms rights advocacy groups who all felt that the current                 
 concealed handgun permit system in Alaska needed some revision.               
 Provisions in SB 177 would revise Alaska's Concealed Handgun Permit           
 (CHP) program in order to provide a more streamlined and less                 
 costly process for obtaining a permit, as well as greater latitude            
 for law abiding citizens to exercise their right to carry concealed           
 MR. HUBER thought it was important to note that public testimony in           
 both the Senate and the House on this bill has been very supportive           
 of the reduction in the permit costs, providing reciprocity                   
 agreements and also removing some of the limitations on where a               
 permit holder is allowed to carry.  It's also important to remember           
 when talking about CHP holders that these are law abiding Alaskans            
 that have met the program application criteria, submitted to finger           
 printing and background checks, received professional training on             
 the use of firearms, informed of the laws relating to firearms, the           
 use of deadly force, they've displayed competency and are qualified           
 with their firearms.                                                          
 MR. HUBER asked the committee that while they consider this                   
 legislation to remember and differentiate between a law abiding               
 permit holder's rights to carry concealed and the proper use of a             
 firearm and those who would use a firearm improperly.   He then               
 offered to outline Sections of the bill.                                      
 Number 235                                                                    
 MR. HUBER stated that Section 1 provides for reciprocity of holders           
 of permits with other states who honor Alaska permits as determined           
 by the Department of Public Safety (DPS.)  Section 2 provides an              
 affirmative defense to AS 11.61.220 that would allow a permit                 
 holder to possess a firearm in an establishment with a beverage               
 dispensary license providing no alcohol is consumed while at the              
 establishment and the permit holder has a blood alcohol level not             
 exceeding .04.  Section 3 provides that a permit holder may request           
 a blood or breath alcohol test at the expense of the permit holder            
 in order to determine the blood alcohol level for use in the                  
 affirmative offense provided for in Section 2.  Section 4 requires            
 the DPS to provide CHB applicants a copy of the laws and                      
 regulations related to concealed handguns.                                    
 MR. HUBER continued that Section 5 extends the department's time              
 period to approve or reject an application to 30 days after receipt           
 of an application.  Section 6 deletes the requirement that the                
 permit display the specific caliber qualified which corresponds to            
 the change in Section 8.  Section 7 of the bill removes AS                    
 11.61.110 (a) (1) and (2).  These are noise related disorderly                
 conduct misdemeanors that preclude obtaining or would be grounds              
 for revoking a permit.  Section 8 is a language change                        
 corresponding with a change made in Section 3.                                
 MR. HUBER added that Section 9 removes the requirement to qualify             
 for a specific caliber while maintaining the requirement to qualify           
 specific to action type.  Section 10 takes the fee cap from the               
 current amount of $125 to $99 on an initial application and from              
 $60 to $30 on the renewal of an application.  Section 11 changes              
 the reasons for revoking a concealed handgun permit by limiting               
 misdemeanant violations to those listed in Section 6.  Section 12             
 removes restrictions on where a permit holder is allowed to carry             
 other than schools and school grounds, state court facilities,                
 correctional facilities, law enforcement facilities, domestic                 
 violence and sexual abuse facilities and where disallowed by state            
 statute and federal law.                                                      
 MR. HUBER stated that Section 13 contains a language change                   
 corresponding to the specific caliber deletion provided in Section            
 8.  Section 14 deletes the prohibition on Derringers and miniature            
 handguns as allowable firearms for concealed carry.  Section 15               
 provides a statutory authority for the Marine Highway System to               
 continue it's current policy of firearms possession.  Section 16              
 provides repealers of the following, the two Class A misdemeanors             
 other than those listed, the residency requirement and the late fee           
 for renewal.                                                                  
 Number 465                                                                    
 REPRESENTATIVE JOSEPH GREEN asked about someone no longer needing             
 to qualify through bore, but just action type.  He asked Mr. Huber            
 to explain why this would be, that a person could qualify with a 22           
 caliber automatic and still be entitled to conceal a 45.                      
 MR. HUBER noted that what is currently required is to qualify with            
 a fractional caliber.  There are two schools of thought, the first            
 is that these are weapons which people are choosing to carry for              
 self defense.  It is only reasonable that they are going to choose            
 to carry something they are going to handle or else it won't                  
 provide them self defense protection.  The second is that someone             
 can qualify now with a 44 for example, yet a 357 magnum is a more             
 powerful handgun with a bigger kick.  The fractional calibers don't           
 necessarily equate into what's easier or harder to handle.                    
 Number 553                                                                    
 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN noted that going from a light load 44 to a 357           
 magnum is certainly a lot closer than going from a 22 to a 44                 
 magnum.  He was concerned that if someone decided to carry                    
 something of a lighter bore after qualifying for a heavier bore               
 makes sense, but to go the other way gave him some heartburn.                 
 MR. HUBER stated that they had heard from a lot of people who made            
 the point that they been through the permit process and qualified             
 with a 38 special, for example, but later determined that they'd              
 rather carry a automatic in a 45 caliber.  This precludes them from           
 being able to do this even though they feel comfortable with this             
 caliber.  These people made the argument that they were making the            
 choice to carry these weapons for personal protection and they                
 didn't want to make the choice to carry a weapon which they can't             
 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN stated that he was still concerned about this            
 issue and that these people certainly have the right to change                
 their minds to carry a weapon with a higher bore, but they should             
 be qualified to do so.  "It's kind of like saying I'm going to                
 learn to drive a Toyota, but then I may want to drive a diesel semi           
 too and since I know how to drive and keep it on the right side of            
 the road it should be O.K."                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE TOOHEY asked if there was any way to upgrade without           
 taking a class all over again.  She stated that she was qualified             
 for a 45 and wondered if there was a way for her to go up to a                
 CHAIRMAN PORTER answered that under current regulations she would             
 qualify for a 45, but the magnum load does not matter.  It's the              
 caliber and type.                                                             
 Number 735                                                                    
 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN noted the reduction of fees slated with this             
 legislation and asked if these reduced fees were enough to cover              
 the cost of the permit program.                                               
 MR. HUBER stated that according to the Department of Public Safety            
 and the current fiscal note, that after costs they will still leave           
 $40 for administrative costs and they say that (indisc. - cross               
 talking) self-sufficient.                                                     
 Number 808                                                                    
 CHRIS SULLIVAN testified by teleconference from Anchorage on SB
 177.  Initially he stated that he would like the law changed to               
 reflect that any other state that issues concealed weapons permits            
 should be allowed to carry a permit in Alaska, straight across the            
 board, not as determined by the Department of Public Safety.  He              
 also added that the Department of Public Safety should be required            
 to seek out other states to enable reciprocity with Alaska.                   
 REPRESENTATIVE CON BUNDE asked if Mr. Sullivan had knowledge of               
 other state's requirements and wondered if they were substantially            
 MR. SULLIVAN made the presumption that other states were going to             
 be as careful with their laws as Alaska is with theirs.                       
 CHAIRMAN PORTER said he would hate to presume these types of                  
 things.  He noted that there are 40 states with permits and 40                
 different laws, with requirements and qualifications.  He thought             
 that probably most people in Alaska would be concerned if a state             
 for example, didn't have a background check as a requirement for              
 this permit as Alaska does.                                                   
 MR. SULLIVAN thought that if reciprocity was researched these types           
 of questions would be answered.                                               
 Number 1052                                                                   
 JANET OATES, Providence Health Systems, testified by teleconference           
 on SB 177 and referred to language on page 6, line 17 in the Senate           
 version and asked to have the following language inserted                     
 "including all health care facilities."  She noted that they had              
 several reasons to request this change.  They want people to know             
 ahead of time before they go into any of their hospital facilities            
 that they can't bring in weapons.                                             
 REPRESENTATIVE CYNTHIA TOOHEY stated that she had a bad feeling               
 about this, especially in an emergency room environment and noted             
 that many people in the emergency rooms are undercover detectives,            
 policeman, etc.  Most times they don't have the time to remove                
 these handguns in order to satisfy such a condition.                          
 MS. OATES responded that their emergency room staff came to her in            
 order to support this concept since they have had incidences when             
 administering to a patient that a loaded gun has fallen to the                
 floor.  Also, in waiting rooms they've had a lot of complaints                
 about gang members hanging out who could possibly be armed.  She              
 also mentioned a suicide in one of their rest rooms.  Not a day               
 goes by that they don't attend to a victim of domestic violence,              
 but they are not in the security business, but rather the healing             
 business.  She acknowledged that the participants testifying have             
 applied for concealed weapon permits and they would probably be               
 willing to respect this exclusion in a hospital, much like an                 
 airport disallows weapons.                                                    
 Number 1300                                                                   
 ED EARNHART testified by teleconference from Anchorage on SB 177.             
 He stated that the original legislation regarding concealed weapons           
 was passed just a few years ago and they should try this out for a            
 while.  He thought that the concept of reciprocity was nonsensical.           
 He said he supported the amendment regarding health facilities.               
 Number 1360                                                                   
 JOE NAVA testified by teleconference from Fairbanks regarding SB
 177.  Mr. Nava stated that he has been teaching handgun safety                
 classes since the inception of the original legislation.  He has              
 graduated about 1000 people out of the program, a third of which              
 are women.  He said his students are wonderful people and they are            
 law abiding.  The holder of a permit has had background checks and            
 shouldn't be worried about.  He asked the committee to be less                
 restrictive, if any changes are made to the bill.  It seemed to him           
 that if someone qualified with a semi-automatic center fire and a             
 revolver center fire, they then should be able to carry (indisc. -            
 paper shuffling) concealed, in other words a Derringer or whatever.           
 He noted that a Derringer is a safe gun, single action, cocked                
 before fired and able to be concealed.                                        
 MR. NAVA said in relation to where these individuals can carry guns           
 it seemed reasonable to him that if someone has been through this             
 program and receives an Alaska concealed hand gun permit, they                
 should be able to carry this gun concealed anywhere they can                  
 legally carry it openly.  He mentioned that the existing program is           
 working well and he applauded the Department of Safety.  In                   
 response to what types of gun use is allowed through the permitting           
 program, Mr. Nava said that part of the curriculum does cover the             
 different types of guns and their uses.                                       
 Number 1614                                                                   
 FRANCIS HERMAN testified by teleconference from Fairbanks regarding           
 SB 177.  He stated that many of those persons who are accepted                
 under the concealed weapons laws and regulations are some of the              
 most responsible persons in any community.  HB 338 and SB 177 was             
 originally written without the tacked on amendments to provide the            
 protection for those people who are no threat to others.  Elongated           
 regulations serve nothing more than to restrict responsible                   
 citizens.  He made the argument that the more restrict these are,             
 the more law abiding citizens will be made into criminals.                    
 Number 1720                                                                   
 HORACE BLACK testified by teleconference from Fairbanks on SB 177.            
 He stated that he also has been teaching hand gun classes since the           
 inception of this original legislation.  Mr. Black said he                    
 generally supports what Mr. Nava said because his students have all           
 been law abiding, responsible citizens.  He stated that he would              
 rather not have either of these two bills pass with the amendments            
 that have been made.                                                          
 CHAIRMAN PORTER noted that the changes to HB 338 and SB 177 could             
 only be characterized as loosening the restrictions and lowering              
 the price of permitting.                                                      
 MR. BLACK responded that there was some loosening of the                      
 legislation, but there was some tightening too, such as the                   
 restriction of drinking 8 hours prior to carrying a concealed hand            
 gun.  He believed that anyone intoxicated who carries a gun cannot            
 make adequate decisions.                                                      
 CHAIRMAN PORTER stated that "that provision was put in so as to               
 eliminate the prohibition about being able to take a concealed fire           
 arm with a permit of course, into a restaurant or a cocktail lounge           
 and have dinner and have to leave it in the car.  That was the                
 compromise to provide that expansion of where it is you may carry."           
 Number 2020                                                                   
 DOUGLAS RHODES testified by teleconference from Glennallen on SB
 177.  He stated that he supports lowering the fees.  The existing             
 fees make it so only people with enough money can get a permit.  If           
 someone is poor they can't afford to carry a concealed hand gun.              
 He said he'd like to see Alaska honor and other states honor their            
 concealed hand gun permits.  Those persons who carry a CHP have               
 been checked and re-checked and they are probably the most                    
 responsible citizens in society.  He also added that people who               
 already have a permit are not going to carry a heavier caliber or             
 a lighter caliber than they know they can handle.  He also opposed            
 the restrictions of where people can carry concealed hand guns.  In           
 terms of the alcohol restrictions, he suggested a breathalyzer                
 limit.  To say someone can't have a glass of wine with dinner is              
 Number 2160                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE referred to reciprocity with other states and            
 asked Mr. Rhodes if he was familiar with all the other programs               
 which grant concealed carry.                                                  
 MR. RHODES said that any state that he knows of that has permits              
 are harder to get than in Alaska.                                             
 REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE mentioned the cost of the program and the                
 required paper work.  He asked if Mr. Rhodes would prefer that the            
 state bear the cost of the concealed carry class.                             
 MR. RHODES didn't know if the state should bear this cost, but he             
 did know that it was way too expensive for a lot of people to pay             
 the cost of the instructor and then to pay the state for the                  
 REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE noted that he understood this program was                
 expensive, but if the state's going to pay for it then he said he             
 was going to have to ask Mr. Rhodes to pay an income tax in order             
 for these poor people to get their permit.                                    
 Number 2254                                                                   
 JANE WINEINGER testified by teleconference from Matsu on SB 177.              
 She stated that she works for the National Rifle Association, is a            
 long time resident of Alaska and is a permit holder.  She stated              
 that currently under reciprocity there are three states which                 
 accept Alaska's permit system as it stands; these are Idaho,                  
 Wyoming and Michigan.  There are a number of states which have less           
 restrictions than Alaska for example, in Washington state someone             
 can apply for a permit as an out-of-state resident and get a permit           
 right away.                                                                   
 MS. WINEINGER also commented on the health care provider who                  
 testified earlier.  Gang members in a hospital are probably not               
 permit holders or they don't obey laws.  She has taught a lot of              
 NRA members who are also nurses and health care providers.                    
 MS. WINEINGER noted that the legislation before the committee                 
 reflected the reform to the current law which the constituents and            
 the gun owners in the state want.  Input to this bill came from all           
 over the state.  Permit holders want less cost for applications,              
 reciprocity with other states and the legal right to carry an                 
 additional (indisc.) for their own safety.  The current law does              
 not directly deal with the consumption of alcohol and carrying                
 concealed.  She stated that she was perplexed why amendments have             
 been added to both these bills which would add obtuse language                
 concerning this issue.  House Bill 338 contains an unenforceable 8            
 hour prohibition against consumption and carrying.  She fears that            
 the current language would only be an excuse to hold someone's                
 This 8 hour language is not reasonable.                                       
 MS. WINEINGER stated that CSSB 177 addresses the subject of a blood           
 alcohol level of .04 and to be over this limit would be a                     
 violation.  She felt as though this language was more reasonable              
 and enforceable.  Consumption of alcohol and carrying a firearm               
 either under permit or open carrying is against the law, period.              
 Curiously, the addition of the 8 hour prohibition version or the              
 blood alcohol test language does not apply to open carrying.  Once            
 again permit holders are asked to endure redundant, abstract                  
 language which shouldn't be in these reform bills.  She asked that            
 the committee support and pass SB 177.                                        
 Number 2389                                                                   
 LEONARD TOOP testified by teleconference from Matsu on SB 177.  He            
 stated that he supports this legislation as well as, the                      
 reciprocity language and the lowering of fees.  He supports the               
 testing of the blood alcohol if it becomes a factor in a concealed            
 weapons carry.  He didn't think an 8 hour limit was feasible and              
 didn't believe it could be enforced.  There was some lengthy                  
 discussion between the witness and Representative Bunde comparing             
 the restrictions of pilots to fly as to concealed carry situations.           
 TAPE 96-50, SIDE B                                                            
 Number 012                                                                    
 DEL SMITH, Deputy Commissioner, Department of Public Safety                   
 testified against SB 177.  In January of 1995, this administration            
 inherited this law.  They worked very hard to address the concerns            
 then regarding this current law and he has not heard many                     
 complaints about it.  The current rate for the permitting program             
 is $122 and by regulation and statute this could be reduced if they           
 thought they could operate on less.  They would certainly be                  
 willing to look at this.  They believe they can probably get by               
 with this $99 figure.  The intent was that this program would be              
 self-supporting.  He noted that there are $59 dollars in driven               
 costs for FBI, computerized checks and fingerprinting.  The other             
 $40 is left to fund two positions.  The department used to have 12            
 people in Permits and Licensing.  He felt as though he couldn't go            
 any lower than this and provide any level of service, as well as              
 meet the time lines set in this legislation.                                  
 MR. SMITH stated that the bottom line is that the department is               
 opposed to any changes in the current law.  They think it's working           
 very well as established.                                                     
 Number 185                                                                    
 JAYNE ANDREEN, Executive Director, Council on Domestic Violence and           
 Sexual Assault testified on SB 177.  The Council feels as though              
 the existing law is working quite well.  The Council is aware that            
 concealed weapon permits are a needed standard for law abiding                
 citizens in the best world.  The reality is that because of the               
 cycle of domestic violence the perpetrators are very often not                
 charged with crimes, one, because the victim does not report                  
 offenses to law enforcement for a variety of reasons and two, quite           
 often there is no arrest which takes place.  There are other                  
 pending pieces of legislation which would help address these types            
 of situations.                                                                
 MS. ANDREEN stated that it's their concern that domestic violence             
 offenders, because many of them don't have criminal records, will             
 be and currently are eligible for concealed weapon permits.  Once             
 they obtain a permit they represent a greater risk to the victims.            
 "One of the things that we were pleased with in the Senate version            
 that I noticed in today's work draft has been removed, is the                 
 exemption for concealed hand guns to be taken into a facility                 
 providing services to victims of domestic violence and sexual                 
 assault.  We are very concerned that the shelter programs and safe            
 home programs need to be a place that concealed weapons cannot be             
 brought in."                                                                  
 Number 348                                                                    
 REPRESENTATIVE TOOHEY asked Ms. Andreen if she honestly felt that             
 a person abused by their spouse for an extended period of time,               
 that law enforcement, etc. are not aware of problems in these                 
 situations.  This cannot go unnoticed.                                        
 MS. ANDREEN said she knew for a fact that many domestic violence              
 offenders have not been brought to the attention of law enforcement           
 and/or the court systems.  She noted that this was part of the                
 cycle of what happens.  There are so many reasons why a victim                
 would not want to report.  Unlike other types of assault that are             
 isolated, domestic violence is an on-going cycle.  Since the                  
 governor introduced the domestic violence bill, her offices have              
 been receiving a lot more contacts from victims around the state.             
 A number of women have stated that they were in an abusive                    
 relationship, sometimes for twelve years, but it wasn't until the             
 third time that a spouse pulled a gun on them did they decide to              
 call the police.                                                              
 Number 348                                                                    
 REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE stated that he was sensitive to Ms. Andreen's            
 concerns, but noted that many of these abusive situations involve             
 knives, physical beatings, automobiles, etc.  He didn't see that              
 eliminating guns (indisc. - trailed off.)                                     
 LAUREE HUGONIN, Executive Director, Alaska Network on Domestic                
 Violence and Sexual Assault testified on SB 177.  She stated that             
 the Network's concern was the deletion of the facilities as a                 
 listed place where people are not allowed to carry concealed.  One            
 of the things they appreciated about both the bills is that they              
 have a requirement that where people who apply for the permits                
 would get a copy of the laws and regulations which outline their              
 responsibilities as permit holders.  The network felt as though               
 this was good because it would clearly state, and there wouldn't be           
 any question in anyone's mind, that facilities for domestic                   
 violence and sexual assault intervention would be places off                  
 limits.  The network respectfully requests that some serious                  
 consideration be given to adding the facilities back in as a listed           
 prohibitive place.                                                            
 Number 300                                                                    
 REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE stated that he assumed her comments addressed            
 males visiting woman in shelters and asked if they would require              
 that the residents of the facilities also not be able to carry                
 MS. HUGONIN answered that on their premises they don't currently              
 allow weapons concealed or otherwise.  If the residents need to               
 bring weapons when they initially come, the shelter asks that they            
 be turned over and in some instances these weapons are kept at the            
 local police station until the resident is able to relocate.  They            
 don't currently allow any weapons now and aren't going to.  All the           
 facilities are united in not wanting weapons on their premises.               
 REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE responded then that essentially they accept              
 responsibility for the safety of the residents.  "They can't                  
 protect themselves, you're going to protect them."                            
 MS. HUGONIN stated that "yes, we are a safe facility, so we do do             
 everything that we can to protect people.  We have security systems           
 in place, we try to take the safeguards that are possible to                  
 prevent anyone from coming on the premises that would try to harm             
 any other person."  She noted that they are not responsible for               
 people's individual behaviors, but they do have safety mechanisms             
 in place.                                                                     
 Number 384                                                                    
 CHAIRMAN PORTER closed the public testimony.  He noted the new CS             
 before the committee and he requested to speak to this version.  In           
 terms of the entire bill, Chairman Porter referred to a few                   
 individuals who asked that nothing be done to change this existing            
 law.  He stated that he fell into this same area.  Along with                 
 everyone else, he put a lot of work into this law two years ago.              
 It has only been in place a little over a year and he quite frankly           
 didn't think enough time has been given to the existing system of             
 doing things.  With this in mind, he attended meetings during the             
 interim and in State Affairs and now presently.  If there was any             
 consistency of testimony it was that the lowering of the fees was             
 desirable and a loosening of the restrictions on where a permitted            
 person may carry their hand gun.  The original bills leading up to            
 the CS before the committee were insulting to him in that they                
 stripped everything that they did two years ago in terms of                   
 background checks, training, and qualifications.  These areas in              
 both bills has been fixed for the most part, but not totally.                 
 CHAIRMAN PORTER asked the committee to consider as their working              
 document the CS developed in the State Affairs Committee.  This CS            
 basically takes the existing law, reduces the cost from $125 to               
 $99, it expands as they received testimony on the desire of someone           
 to go into a restaurant that has a beverage dispensary permit                 
 holder to have dinner.  Under existing law this not allowed.  There           
 was an awful lot of discussion and not withstanding the testimony             
 received today, .04 is a very hard thing to establish as opposed to           
 an eight hour restriction which is pretty easy to establish.  If              
 someone has alcohol on their breath and carrying concealed, they've           
 been drinking in the past eight hours.   No question about it.  If            
 someone saw the individual drinking and carrying, this is enough              
 for a charge.  .04 on the other hand is difficult because the                 
 offense would be .04 at the time that a person was carrying.  Quite           
 often the breathalyzer is taken sometime after this.  He noted that           
 the eight hour period is standard procedure and mentioned that this           
 is also the standard for flying.                                              
 Number 581                                                                    
 REPRESENTATIVE TOOHEY asked what the absorption of one glass of               
 wine over a one to two hour lunch was.                                        
 CHAIRMAN PORTER stated that this glass of wine would probably                 
 dissipate totally after three hours.                                          
 REPRESENTATIVE TOOHEY noted that a glass of wine, by medical                  
 standards, is a necessity to stay healthy.                                    
 CHAIRMAN PORTER said that he has heard this not as an absolute, but           
 as a suggestion.                                                              
 Number 620                                                                    
 CHAIRMAN PORTER asked Mr. Huber if the language regarding banks was           
 included in both bills.  Mr. Huber's response was not audible.  The           
 remaining loosening which Chairman Porter didn't particularly                 
 subscribe to in the Senate version was "the reduction, once you,              
 when you're qualifying to just type rather, than caliber and type."           
 Because someone has qualified with a 22 doesn't necessarily make              
 someone able to carry a 45.  He did not subscribe to the argument             
 that if someone is permitted for one type, they would have sense              
 enough to carry the correct gun.  He asked, "what's wrong with                
 being sure?"                                                                  
 Number 692                                                                    
 177(STA), version H.                                                          
 REPRESENTATIVE TOOHEY objected.  A roll call vote was taken.                  
 Representatives Bunde, Green, Finkelstein, Davis and Porter voted             
 yes.  Representative Toohey voted no.  The motion to adopt CSSB
 177(STA), version H was adopted as the House Judiciary Committee's            
 working draft.                                                                
 Number 698                                                                    
 CHAIRMAN PORTER then addressed Amendment number one for                       
 consideration.  This amendment read as follows:                               
 Page 7, line 4 - 7:                                                           
 Delete "where notice that carrying a concealed handgun is                     
 prohibited has been given by the posting of a conspicuous notice or           
 by oral statement by the resident to the permittee"                           
 Insert ", other than the permittee's residence, unless the                   
 permittee has first obtained the express permission to bring a                
 concealed handgun into the residence from an adult residing there            
 STATEMENT BY THE RESIDENT TO THE PERMITTEE]"                                  
 CHAIRMAN PORTER continued to explain the intent behind this                   
 amendment.  "Within both bills was a requirement basically to the             
 extent that those areas where we didn't specifically say you can't            
 carry a gun in here we said, but if you own a business or another             
 property or domestic violence shelter or a home and you don't want            
 someone with a permit to carry that into an establishment or into             
 your residence, that you can post it.  While it is probably                   
 inconvenient for businesses to post, it is in my mind ridiculous to           
 say that a person who owns a house must place a notice on his or              
 her door that they don't want guns in there."                                 
 CHAIRMAN PORTER explained that this amendment would reverse this.             
 If someone is a permittee and they want to go into someone home and           
 don't know whether or not they care, this person would be required            
 to put on notice this home owner that they were carrying concealed.           
 It reversed this requirement.                                                 
 Number 865                                                                    
 REPRESENTATIVE FINKELSTEIN made a motion to move this amendment               
 number one.  He noted that he wouldn't post something on his door,            
 but he would certainly like to know if someone in his house was               
 carrying a concealed weapon.  Representative Toohey objected.  A              
 roll call vote was taken.  Representatives Bunde, Green,                      
 Finkelstein, Davis and Porter voted yes.  Representative Toohey               
 voted no.  Amendment number one passed.                                       
 Number 979                                                                    
 REPRESENTATIVE FINKELSTEIN made a motion to move amendment number             
 two which read as follows:                                                    
 Section 10, page 7, line 19, Amend 18.65.755(a) by adding a new               
 subsection 9 to read as follows:                                              
 "a health care facility: in this paragraph, "health care facility"           
 means hospital, nursing home, public health center, outpatient                
 clinic, facility for the developmentally disabled, rehabilitation             
 facility, drug abuse and alcoholism treatment facility, mental                
 health center, or health care unit within a sheltered are a home or           
 within a home for senior citizens."                                          
 REPRESENTATIVE FINKELSTEIN stated that he wouldn't go into great              
 detail regarding this amendment since there was already a fair                
 amount of discussion concerning this issue and a compelling case              
 was presented to support it.                                                  
 REPRESENTATIVE TOOHEY objected and requested to speak to this                 
 objection.  She noted a rape incident of a co-worker while working            
 at Providence Hospital in a parking lot.  Representative Toohey               
 said that when she goes into a parking lot she has the right to               
 protect herself.                                                              
 CHAIRMAN PORTER requested a roll call vote.  Representatives Green,           
 Finkelstein, Davis and Porter voted yes.  Representatives Bunde and           
 Toohey voted no.  Amendment number two passed.                                
 Number 1112                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE FINKELSTEIN referred to page 7, line 2 and 3 and he            
 wished to offer an amendment to delete the deletion, to just                  
 restore the original law as follows:                                          
 "A facility providing services to victims of domestic violence or             
 sexual assault."                                                              
 CHAIRMAN PORTER offered that this amendment would be called number            
 3.  Representative Toohey objected.  A roll call vote was taken.              
 Representatives Finkelstein, Davis, Bunde, Green and Porter voted             
 yes.  Representative Toohey voted no.  Amendment number 3 passed.             
 Number 1189                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE FINKELSTEIN referred to page 6, line 11 and 12, and            
 suggested to delete the reduction in the dollar amounts.  First of            
 all he objected to the fixed fees.  They fail to account for                  
 inflation, it creates a situation where if the fees don't cover the           
 cost they regularly have to jack them up.  The current law already            
 allows a ceiling.  Even if they can provide these programs under              
 these amounts right now, it's guaranteed two years from now they              
 won't.  His second objection was to the amount of $99 and likened             
 it to selling something in a grocery store.  He stated that it was            
 embarrassing and made the point that they have to start paying for            
 the cost of government.                                                       
 REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE referred to previous testimony that even after           
 the present cost of the what is being charged now for the program,            
 $40 was still left over.  Whatever this program costs, that's what            
 ought to be charged.                                                          
 CHAIRMAN PORTER stated that they had discussed this issues at                 
 length in the State Affairs Committee meeting.  The troopers are              
 trying to meld the people who operate this program with people who            
 do work in other license programs.  It's hard to say how much this            
 program costs.  He believed that Deputy Commissioner Smith                    
 testified that the department felt they could do the program for              
 CHAIRMAN PORTER spoke against the amendment from the standpoint of,           
 one, the department now says that they can do this program within             
 this $99 figure and secondly, the overwhelming amount of testimony            
 from the people affected had asked them to look at trying to reduce           
 the cost.  If the cost can be reduced and within the cost to the              
 state, this is a reasonable thing to do.  More importantly, the               
 Chairman of the previous committee wanted to get the cost down                
 under $100.  She tried and tried, she finally said $99.  If for no            
 other reason, for Chairman James, he spoke against the amendment.             
 Number 1504                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE voiced his concern that if the state doesn't             
 like a program they try to price it out of reach.  He has noticed             
 this in the legislative process as well.  If the administration               
 doesn't like a bill they try to price it out of existence.                    
 REPRESENTATIVE FINKELSTEIN asked to revise his amendment number 4             
 to change the total from $99 to $100.  Representative Toohey                  
 objected.   A roll call vote was taken.  Representatives Bunde,               
 Green and Finkelstein voted yes.  Representatives Davis, Toohey and           
 Porter voted no.  Amendment number 4 failed.                                  
 REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE offered an amendment number 5 to change the              
 figure of this clause from $99 to $90 along with the explanation              
 that if the goal was to achieve confidence in the public, he                  
 suggested this figure.  Representatives Toohey and Davis objected.            
 A roll call vote was taken.  Representatives Bunde and Green voted            
 yes.  Representatives Davis, Toohey, Finkelstein and Porter voted             
 no.  Amendment number 5 failed.                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE BETTYE DAVIS made the argument that the permit                 
 program with a built-in maximum of $125 was a working system                  
 because the department was presently charging less than this and              
 the cap acts as a cushion.  It was decided that once the Department           
 of Public Safety came up with a figure of actual costs of the                 
 program then maybe an amendment could be brought to the floor to              
 finally decide this cost issue.                                               
 Number 1836                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE TOOHEY stated that she would like to discuss Section           
 12, on page 7, line 25 regarding a permittee not being allowed to             
 carry a concealed handgun in public while consuming alcohol or                
 within 8 hours after consuming.  She asked if this was true for               
 people who were not carrying concealed such as, rifles, knives,               
 CHAIRMAN PORTER noted that it was illegal for anyone to control a             
 firearm while someone is intoxicated.  It is also illegal to carry            
 a firearm into a licensed premise.  This language was the much                
 discussed quid pro quo for eliminating guns in a bar.                         
 Number 1890                                                                   
 MR. HUBER came forward to speak to this section.  "The quid pro quo           
 or the trade-off as you were referring to (indisc. - paper                    
 shuffling) establishment with a licensed as a beverage dispensary             
 is contained in the section of the bill which deals with the                  
 beverage dispensary license.  This section reaches farther than               
 just premises with a beverage dispensary license and this says                
 anywhere and the sponsor's feelings to this amendment are, it again           
 takes the class of people who are just concealed permits holders              
 and holds them to a different standard than anybody else with a               
 firearm or somebody carrying concealed legally in this state while            
 they're out in the field hunting, fishing or trapping."                       
 CHAIRMAN PORTER noted that this wasn't the intent.  He asked where            
 the language was that would disallow eight hours or drinking within           
 a licensed premise.                                                           
 MR. HUBER said he believed this was section 2 of this bill and                
 noted that the sponsor did prepare an amendment which would delete            
 this section.                                                                 
 CHAIRMAN PORTER stated that the quid pro quo for this restriction             
 was based on the premise that going into a cocktail lounge is a               
 extra, added problem, because problems do occur in these places.              
 This was the thinking, to make this very clear that someone should            
 not be drinking if they are in one of these establishments and                
 carrying a weapon.  Consequently, he stated that the chair would              
 not be opposed to deleting this Section 12.                                   
 Number 2049                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE TOOHEY made a motion to adopt this as amendment                
 number 6.  Amendment number 6 would delete Section 12 on page 7.              
 REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE confirmed that if this section was deleted, it           
 would return the standard to existing law where an individual                 
 carrying a concealed weapon would be held accountable like any                
 other type of user, such as a hunter who is not allowed to operate            
 a firearm while intoxicated.                                                  
 CHAIRMAN PORTER stated that the effect of what they were doing was            
 to continue to say that if someone intends to go into a beverage              
 dispensary, licensed premise this person cannot drink while they're           
 there or for eight hours before this person enters such premises.             
 There being no objection, amendment number 6 passed.                          
 Number 2300                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE made a motion to move CSSB 177(STA), version             
 H as amended from the House Judiciary Committee with individual               
 recommendations and attached fiscal note.  There being no                     
 objection, it was so moved.                                                   
 HB 198 - PFD ALLOWABLE ABSENCES                                             
 REPRESENTATIVE KIM ELTON came forward to testify on CSHB 198(STA).            
 He stated that the bill does three things, it provides for new                
 allowable absences from the state, which are to care for a family             
 member with a critical, life-threatening illness; to care for a               
 terminally-ill family member; or for the purpose of selling the               
 estate of a deceased family member.  (Some of Representative                  
 Elton's testimony was cut off, due to the end of the tape.)                   
 TAPE 96-51, SIDE A                                                            
 Number 085                                                                    
 REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE asked Representative Elton if he envisioned              
 someone going out-of-state to care for someone who is comatose,               
 someone who could remain so for the rest of their life.                       
 REPRESENTATIVE ELTON noted that Mr. McGee, Chief, Permanent Fund              
 Dividend Division Operations, might be better able to answer this             
 question.  Chairman Porter stated that for the record Mr. McGee               
 nodded his head in the affirmative.  A person caring for someone              
 who is comatose would have to come back to the state every two                
 years in order to qualify for a Permanent Fund Dividend.                      
 Number 145                                                                    
 REPRESENTATIVE TOOHEY asked how many people would be out-of-state             
 for two years with a terminally ill person.  She thought that this            
 was stretching it.  She thought this period of time would be more             
 like three to four months.                                                    
 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN made a motion to move CSHB 198(STA) from the             
 House Judiciary Committee with individual recommendations and                 
 attached fiscal note.  There being no objection, it was so moved.             
 CHAIRMAN PORTER adjourned the House Judiciary Committee meeting at            
 3:00 p.m.                                                                     

Document Name Date/Time Subjects