Legislature(1995 - 1996)

03/29/1996 01:15 PM JUD

Audio Topic
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
               HOUSE JUDICIARY STANDING COMMITTEE                              
                         March 29, 1996                                        
                           1:15 p.m.                                           
 MEMBERS PRESENT                                                               
 Representative Brian Porter, Chairman                                         
 Representative Joe Green, Vice Chairman                                       
 Representative Con Bunde                                                      
 Representative Al Vezey                                                       
 Representative Cynthia Toohey                                                 
 Representative David Finkelstein                                              
 MEMBERS ABSENT                                                                
 Representative Bettye Davis                                                   
 COMMITTEE CALENDAR                                                            
 "An Act relating to correctional institutions and their                       
 administration, and to services provided to prisoners; amending the           
 definition of `severely medically disabled' applicable to prisoners           
 seeking special medical parole; and amending provisions of the                
 correctional industries program, and extending the termination date           
 of the Correctional Industries Commission and the program."                   
      -  PASSED HCSCSSSSB 175(JUD) OUT OF COMMITTEE                            
 PREVIOUS ACTION                                                               
 BILL:  SB 175                                                               
 SHORT TITLE: "NO FRILLS" PRISON ACT                                           
 SPONSOR(S): SENATOR(S) DONLEY, Pearce, Halford, Leman, Kelly,                 
 Sharp, Green, Torgerson, Miller, Taylor, R. Phillips                          
 JRN-DATE     JRN-DATE             ACTION                                      
 05/06/95      1552    (S)   READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)                 
 05/06/95      1552    (S)   JUD, FIN                                          
 01/22/96      2197    (S)   SPONSOR SUBSTITUTE INTRODUCED-                    
                             NEW TITLE                                         
 01/22/96      2198    (S)   REFERRAL(S)  JUD, FIN                             
 01/22/96      2197    (S)   COSPONSOR:  PEARCE                                
 02/12/96              (S)   JUD AT  2:10 PM BELTZ ROOM 211                    
 02/12/96              (S)   MINUTE(JUD)                                       
 02/14/96      2424    (S)   JUD RPT  CS  3DP 1DNP 1NR  SAME TITLE             
 02/14/96      2424    (S)   ZERO FISCAL NOTE (DHSS)                           
 02/20/96              (S)   FIN AT  9:00 AM SENATE FINANCE 532                
 02/20/96              (S)   MINUTE(FIN)                                       
 02/21/96      2486    (S)   FIN RPT  CS  4DP 1NR      SAME TITLE              
 02/21/96      2487    (S)   ZERO FISCAL NOTE TO CS (CORR)                     
 02/21/96      2487    (S)   PREVIOUS ZERO FISCAL NOTE TO CS(DHSS)             
 02/21/96      2498    (S)   COSPONSOR(S):  HALFORD                            
 02/23/96              (S)   RLS AT 10:45 AM FAHRENKAMP RM 203                 
 02/23/96              (S)   MINUTE(RLS)                                       
 02/26/96      2538    (S)   RULES TO CALENDAR  2/26/96                        
 02/26/96      2541    (S)   READ THE SECOND TIME                              
 02/26/96      2541    (S)   FIN  CS ADOPTED UNAN CONSENT                      
 02/26/96      2541    (S)   AM NO  1     ADOPTED UNAN CONSENT                 
 02/26/96      2541    (S)   AM TO AM 2   ADOPTED UNAN CONSENT                 
 02/26/96      2543    (S)   AM NO 2 AS AM FAILED Y9 N11                       
 02/26/96      2543    (S)   ADVANCED TO THIRD READING                         
                             UNAN CONSENT                                      
 02/26/96      2543    (S)   READ THE THIRD TIME                               
                             CSSSSB 175(FIN) AM                                
 02/26/96      2543    (S)   COSPONSOR(S):  LEMAN, KELLY, SHARP,               
 02/26/96      2543    (S)   TORGERSON, MILLER, TAYLOR, PHILLIPS               
 02/26/96      2543    (S)   PASSED Y14 N6                                     
 02/26/96      2544    (S)   DUNCAN  NOTICE OF RECONSIDERATION                 
 02/28/96      2569    (S)   RECON TAKEN UP - IN THIRD READING                 
 02/28/96      2569    (S)   AM NO  3 NOT OFFERED                              
 02/28/96      2569    (S)   RETURN TO SECOND FOR AM 4                         
                             UNAN CONSENT                                      
 02/28/96      2569    (S)   AM NO  4     FAILED  Y8 N10 E2                    
 02/28/96      2570    (S)   AUTOMATICALLY IN THIRD READING                    
 02/28/96      2570    (S)   RETURN TO SECOND FOR AM 5                         
                             UNAN CONSENT                                      
 02/28/96      2570    (S)   AM NO  5     ADOPTED UNAN CONSENT                 
 02/28/96      2570    (S)   AUTOMATICALLY IN THIRD READING                    
 02/28/96      2570    (S)   RECON HELD 3/6/96 CALENDAR  UNAN                  
 03/06/96      2628    (S)   MOVED TO BOTTOM OF CALENDAR                       
 03/06/96      2630    (S)   RECONSIDERATION BEFORE SENATE                     
 03/06/96      2630    (S)   RETURN TO 2ND FOR AM 6                            
 03/06/96      2630    (S)   AM NO  6     FAILED  Y7 N11 E2                    
 03/06/96      2631    (S)   AUTOMATICALLY IN THIRD READING                    
 03/06/96      2631    (S)   RETURN TO SECOND FOR AM 7                         
                             UNAN CONSENT                                      
 03/06/96      2631    (S)   AM NO  7     ADOPTED UNAN CONSENT                 
 03/06/96      2632    (S)   AUTOMATICALLY IN THIRD READING                    
 03/06/96      2632    (S)   RETURN TO SECOND FOR AM 8                         
                             UNAN CONSENT                                      
 03/06/96      2632    (S)   AM NO  8     ADOPTED Y11 N7 E2                    
 03/06/96      2633    (S)   AUTOMATICALLY IN THIRD READING                    
 03/06/96      2633    (S)   RETURN TO SECOND FOR AM 9                         
                             UNAN CONSENT                                      
 03/06/96      2634    (S)   AM NO  9     OFFERED BY ZHAROFF                   
 03/06/96      2634    (S)   AM 1 TO AM 9 ADOPTED UNAN CONSENT                 
 03/06/96      2634    (S)   AM 2 TO AM 9 ADOPTED UNAN CONSENT                 
 03/06/96      2634    (S)   AM NO  9 AS AMENDED ADOPTED UNAN                  
 03/06/96      2634    (S)   AUTOMATICALLY IN THIRD READING                    
 03/06/96      2635    (S)   PASSED ON RECONSIDERATION Y14 N4 E2               
 03/06/96      2636    (S)   TRANSMITTED TO (H)                                
 03/08/96      3018    (H)   READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)                 
 03/08/96      3018    (H)   JUDICIARY, FINANCE                                
 03/29/96              (H)   JUD AT  1:00 PM CAPITOL 120                       
 WITNESS REGISTER                                                              
 SENATOR DAVE DONLEY                                                           
 Alaska State Legislature                                                      
 Capitol Building, Room 11                                                     
 Juneau, Alaska  99801                                                         
 Telephone:  (907) 465-3892                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Provided sponsor statement and answered                  
                      questions on SB 175.                                     
 JERRY SHRINER, Special Assistant                                              
 Office of the Commissioner                                                    
 Department of Corrections                                                     
 240 Main Street, Suite 700                                                    
 Juneau, Alaska  99801                                                         
 Telephone:  (907) 465-4640                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Provided department's position and answered              
                      questions regarding SB 175.                              
 ANNE CARPENETI, Assistant Attorney General                                    
 Criminal Division                                                             
 Department of Law                                                             
 P.O. Box 110300                                                               
 Juneau, Alaska  99811-0300                                                    
 Telephone:  (907) 465-3428                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Provided department's position and answered              
                      questions regarding SB 175.                              
 THOMAS MEYER, Committee Aide                                                  
 House Judiciary Committee                                                     
 Alaska State Legislature                                                      
 Capitol Building, Room 118                                                    
 Juneau, Alaska  99801                                                         
 Telephone:  (907) 465-4990                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Answered questions on amendments to SB 175.              
 ACTION NARRATIVE                                                              
 TAPE 96-45, SIDE A                                                            
 Number 0001                                                                   
 CHAIRMAN BRIAN PORTER called the House Judiciary Committee meeting            
 to order at 1:15 p.m.  Members present at the call to order were              
 Representatives Porter, Green, Vezey and Toohey.  Representatives             
 Finkelstein and Bunde joined the meeting at 1:19 p.m. and 1:37                
 p.m., respectively.  Absent was Representative B. Davis.                      
 SB 175 - "NO FRILLS" PRISON ACT                                             
 Number 0053                                                                   
 SENATOR DAVE DONLEY, sponsor of SB 175, explained that the bill               
 responded to legislation sponsored by Chairman Porter two years               
 before, relating to the constitutional amendment on victims'                  
 rights.  That legislation contained a section addressing the penal            
 administration section of the Alaska Constitution, adding                     
 provisions for community condemnation, victims' rights and                    
 restitution.  The bill moved towards facilitating that language,              
 which was adopted by the voters in the last general election as a             
 constitutional amendment, Senator Donley said.                                
 SENATOR DONLEY stated that SB 175 enhanced the reformation clause             
 of the constitution by providing additional vocational training               
 opportunities for prisoners.  Language to that effect had been                
 added to the original legislation at the request of the Department            
 of Corrections.  The bill helped protect public safety by making              
 absolutely clear that there should be no martial arts training or             
 equipment in prisons, with which the Department of Corrections                
 agreed.  It also banned body-building equipment, which Senator                
 Donley thought would enable violent prisoners to increase their               
 SENATOR DONLEY referred to the community condemnation language                
 adopted by voters and said SB 175 addressed this by eliminating               
 luxuries in Alaska prisons.  Modeled after the federal no-frills              
 prison act currently before the U.S. Congress, the provision banned           
 compact disc players, VCRs, personal computers and premium cable              
 television within inmates' individual cells.  It also put in                  
 statute the Department of Corrections' present ban on pornographic            
 materials and prohibited violent movies.  Senator Donley believed             
 prison personnel would welcome the provision.                                 
 Number 0330                                                                   
 SENATOR DONLEY explained that compact disc players and computers              
 had already been banned from federal prisons.  Some suggested                 
 compact discs could easily be used as weapons.  Although prisoners            
 paid for premium cable television themselves, many Alaskans could             
 not afford that luxury and found it offensive, he said.  The final            
 Senate version of SB 175 allowed prisoners television with basic              
 cable in their rooms if they paid for it themselves, got a GED,               
 were engaged in educational programs, had complied with any court             
 orders for alcohol or drug treatment, and had made proper                     
 restitution to victims.  Senator Donley thought that might provide            
 powerful incentives.                                                          
 Number 0514                                                                   
 SENATOR DONLEY said the bill contained a cost-saving measure to               
 increase the potential number of prisoners who could be paroled               
 because of catastrophic illnesses or medical conditions that made             
 them nonthreatening to the public.  Language instituted the                   
 previous year had only applied to prisoners who were bedridden.               
 However, prisoners in wheelchairs, for example, had been ineligible           
 for that program.  Once a person was no longer in the prison                  
 system, he or she became eligible for federal funds for medical               
 care, which could provide enormous cost savings based on even one             
 paroled prisoner.  This savings had not been reflected in the                 
 fiscal note because of the infrequency of qualifying people,                  
 Senator Donley added.                                                         
 Number 0607                                                                   
 CHAIRMAN PORTER referred to criteria that must be met to receive              
 primary cable television.  He assumed if a person had already been            
 a high school graduate or had a GED, they were "past phase one."              
 SENATOR DONLEY concurred.                                                     
 CHAIRMAN PORTER asked if such a person would need to be engaged in            
 an educational program.                                                       
 SENATOR DONLEY replied that a prisoner who already had a GED would            
 have to be in some sort of educational or vocational program.                 
 CHAIRMAN PORTER asked if such a program would be available to                 
 Number 0703                                                                   
 SENATOR DONLEY suggested the Department of Corrections could answer           
 that.  If it were not available, he thought it should be.  He                 
 mentioned that the bill allowed computers for vocational purposes             
 in common areas and expressed support for Representative                      
 Finkelstein's upcoming amendment to add educational use of                    
 computers.  Senator Donley clarified that televisions in common               
 areas could have cable.                                                       
 CHAIRMAN PORTER asked, "Do you consider, when you're excluding                
 body-building equipment, that you are excluding normal ... exercise           
 SENATOR DONLEY replied there was no intent to exclude aerobic                 
 training equipment.  "What I'm concerned about is machinery that              
 actually enhances development of muscles," he said, indicating he             
 felt strongly about it.  He suggested people could do push-ups or             
 other exercises on their own, without high-tech equipment.                    
 Number 0856                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE DAVID FINKELSTEIN referred to page 4, line 2, which            
 prohibited prisoners from viewing unrated movies.  He suggested               
 that numerous educational and obscure movies were unrated.                    
 SENATOR DONLEY indicated the intent was to prohibit violent or                
 pornographic movies that were unrated.  He said he would have no              
 problem with adding language that said "unless it's an educational            
 film or unless it's approved by the department, movies without                
 ratings should be prohibited".                                                
 Number 0950                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE AL VEZEY asked how many of the conditions in the               
 bill were now beyond the control of the commissioner of the                   
 Department of Corrections.                                                    
 SENATOR DONLEY replied, "I believe the Cleary settlement includes           
 some requirements for body-building equipment and I don't consider            
 that a prohibition to the legislature putting it into statute ...             
 because I don't think that was mandated under either the federal or           
 the state constitution that they be provided with that.  And the              
 state statute, then, would subsequently overrule that, because that           
 was a settlement, not a court order, and the state would simply               
 renegotiate.  Based on recent United States Supreme Court cases,              
 it's clear that those kind of settlements with prisoners are                  
 available for modification by states.  So, I would say without a              
 statute, that that would be beyond the current jurisdiction of the            
 department unless they took that initiative on their own, because             
 right now, they've agreed to that in the Cleary settlement.  I              
 guess you could say that ... under that line of new cases, they               
 could go in and modify the Cleary settlement.  So, given that, they         
 would have the ability to be flexible there and actually prohibit             
 those kind of things.  Other than that, I think the commissioner              
 probably has the authority to do everything here if they wanted               
 Number 1039                                                                   
 SENATOR DONLEY indicated the Cleary settlement, which he had                
 recently reread, discussed phone calls.  "I think we have an                  
 amendment to make this consistent with existing statute on phone              
 calls," he said.                                                              
 REPRESENTATIVE VEZEY asked if Senator Donley was of the opinion               
 that provided the Administration was willing to deal with the court           
 under the new laws and new court rulings addressing the Cleary              
 decision, that the majority of items in SB 175 could be addressed             
 SENATOR DONLEY replied, "That's what I've been able to figure out             
 so far."                                                                      
 Number 1113                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE VEZEY referred to Section 2 and recalled that a                
 couple years previously, the legislature had worked hard to put               
 that wording in statute.  He asked for reasons behind changes                 
 proposed for that section.                                                    
 SENATOR DONLEY referred to page 1, line 13, and said, "By removing            
 the `confined to bed', you open it up for the possibility of                  
 somebody who's in a wheelchair or ... maybe their arms are disabled           
 but their legs still work."  The Department of Corrections had                
 estimated there would be ten qualifying people per year, with the             
 "confined to bed" wording.  However, there had only been "about               
 Number 1195                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE VEZEY stated the original idea was to have a very              
 narrow window, only for people who would definitely not be a threat           
 to society.  "They were basically characterized as terminally ill             
 people," he recalled.  He questioned whether someone confined to a            
 wheelchair would necessarily be completely nonthreatening.  He                
 asked if the idea was to open up the window and enlarge the                   
 population available for the exception.                                       
 SENATOR DONLEY affirmed that.  "And it's such a small population              
 that the department, in hearings in Senate Finance, said they                 
 couldn't even, for sure, say there'd even be one," he said.  "But             
 there could be.  And that's why there's no fiscal note saying we're           
 going to save `x' amount of dollars."                                         
 Number 1245                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE TOOHEY responded to Representative Vezey, "We keep             
 thinking that the prison population is a young, virile group.                 
 There's some old, old people in the prison system now that have               
 been there a long time and will remain there for a long time."  She           
 suggested people who had a stroke could often walk with a walker,             
 but not well.  In addition, people with advanced cases of AIDS were           
 not necessarily confined to bed or a wheelchair but had limited               
 REPRESENTATIVE VEZEY suggested that if reform were to be addressed,           
 including constitutional change and its impact on Cleary, the size          
 of prisoners' living quarters was the most important consideration.           
 Number 1340                                                                   
 SENATOR DONLEY indicated that square footage per prisoner was                 
 specified in Cleary, which was settled out of court.  He was                
 currently looking into how that settlement related to the minimum             
 federal constitutional standard.                                              
 CHAIRMAN PORTER asked if the Cleary settlement carried the weight           
 of a court order.                                                             
 SENATOR DONLEY said, "It does, but since the court didn't make a              
 finding that it was required, we don't know what the court would              
 actually require."                                                            
 REPRESENTATIVE FINKELSTEIN asked:  "Since we haven't done anything            
 to reduce the prison overpopulation, since the new prisons that may           
 or may not be built are at least a few years off, since we've                 
 passed plenty of laws that are going to be sending more people into           
 the prisons, why would it ever be in our interest to renegotiate              
 the Cleary settlement?"                                                     
 Number 1419                                                                   
 SENATOR DONLEY said the mandated physical space was specified in              
 terms of square footage in the Cleary settlement, which also                
 limited the number of prisoners per room, both in dormitory                   
 conditions and cells for individuals.  "If that amount was more               
 than is required under the constitution, you might be able to save            
 some money with new prison construction," he suggested.  Since it             
 had not been ruled on by the court, however, he did not know the              
 REPRESENTATIVE VEZEY said he did not know, either.  He wanted to              
 find out the square footage requirements under Cleary, as well as           
 the minimum federal standards.  "And before we let this bill out of           
 committee, I would like to actually put that in statute, that that            
 is the maximum standard that we will establish," he said,                     
 suggesting the possibility of placing additional prisoners in                 
 existing facilities.  He asked if Senator Donley had academic                 
 studies on the impact of physical training on the prison                      
 population.  He wondered if it would make felons meaner or make               
 better citizens out of them.                                                  
 Number 1520                                                                   
 SENATOR DONLEY replied he had no such information.  He indicated he           
 had seen the ban on body-building equipment in the federal act and            
 added that it had always bothered him personally.                             
 REPRESENTATIVE VEZEY said he questioned that.  Physical training              
 was an integral part of all educational programs geared toward                
 young men and it taught self-respect, which carried over to respect           
 for others, he said.  Although he appreciated the motive, he was              
 uncertain the means would accomplish the desired end.  He referred            
 to television in prisons and said it was a cheap baby-sitter.  He             
 speculated that prison guards would advocate its use.                         
 SENATOR DONLEY responded that many prisons nationwide did not allow           
 televisions in rooms.  He thought all had them in common areas,               
 however, which this bill would allow.  In many prisons, there were            
 also headphones for use in common areas, he said.                             
 Number 1784                                                                   
 CHAIRMAN PORTER asked if prisoners qualifying for premium cable               
 television in their rooms would have to have completed restitution            
 or whether they would qualify if they had a plan on which they were           
 SENATOR DONLEY replied he had heard a proposal to modify it to say            
 that if there was a plan, and the person was making payments, they            
 would qualify.  "I don't think that's unreasonable," he said.  "The           
 problem I personally had with it is it's kind of hard to explain to           
 the victim how the prisoner can afford to buy cable TV in their               
 room but they couldn't afford to compensate them for the damage               
 they did to them when they committed a crime."  He reiterated that            
 he thought it was reasonable.                                                 
 Number 1784                                                                   
 CHAIRMAN PORTER said that some of the bills a prisoner would owe              
 might be substantial.  The motivation for maintaining payments                
 would be helpful.  "There isn't any requirement for them to make              
 restitution," he added.                                                       
 SENATOR DONLEY said, "If the committee feels strongly about that,             
 I have language drafted that would do that.  It wasn't my intent to           
 offer it, but if any member of the committee wants to, I've got               
 that drafted."                                                                
 REPRESENTATIVE TOOHEY referred to the rating of movies and                    
 suggested removing the language "or do not have ratings", citing              
 the reason that many educational films were unrated.  She asked if            
 prisoners were allowed VCRs in their rooms and commented that many            
 educational programs came on tape.                                            
 Number 1857                                                                   
 SENATOR DONLEY said he thought it was clearly appropriate to have             
 a common area where prisoners could watch educational video tapes.            
 However, he thought having them in individual cells was                       
 problematic.  He emphasized that the bill would not prohibit                  
 watching instructional video tapes in a common area.                          
 SENATOR DONLEY read from a document and informed the committee of             
 the size requirements under Cleary, which specified a minimum of 60         
 square feet for one inmate; 80 square feet for two; and 140 square            
 feet for three.  It also said that future facilities may not                  
 provide for housing of inmates in dormitories, except for minimum             
 security.  He was unsure of the definition of dormitory.  He                  
 thought it was unfortunate that was specified in the settlement.              
 CHAIRMAN PORTER stated his understanding that the Department of               
 Law's opinion was that the statute would technically override the             
 Cleary agreement, although there would probably be lawsuits.                
 Number 1968                                                                   
 JERRY SHRINER, Special Assistant, Office of the Commissioner,                 
 Department of Corrections, testified that he had worked extensively           
 with Senator Donley on the bill.  He indicated that the department            
 liked some provisions and disliked others.  While the department              
 understood Senator Donley's concern about public perception of                
 frills, the department did not see it that way nor think of the               
 prison system as pleasant.  Fundamentally, those in charge thought            
 facilities were being handled appropriately and in line with not              
 only rehabilitation but also public condemnation.                             
 MR. SHRINER indicated they were trying to curb smoking but that it            
 was not a simple problem.  Similarly, they did not want to just               
 walk into facilities and announce the weights were being removed.             
 "We're not necessarily opposed to some of these things, but some of           
 them take awhile," he said.                                                   
 Number 2108                                                                   
 MR. SHRINER said some parts of the bill got into areas that                   
 belonged to the correctional superintendents, sergeants, and                  
 personnel who knew what was needed to manage those facilities.                
 "They don't see television as a frill," he emphasized.  "They see             
 television as a management tool or, as Representative Vezey said,             
 a baby-sitter.  ... From their point of view, a guy who's in his              
 room watching television is a guy who's not in the day room ...               
 where they have to pay more attention to him than ... if he's in              
 his cell.  And when you're a correction officer and maybe there's             
 only one other CO on duty that night, and you've got 100 or more              
 prisoners to watch, they like the comfort of knowing that ... most            
 of those guys are in their room, the door's locked, and they're not           
 causing any trouble while they're down there."                                
 Number 2160                                                                   
 MR. SHRINER referred to medical parole and said Senator Donley was            
 correct that in years past, there had been estimates that maybe 30            
 or 40 people could be let out under that provision.  However, when            
 the bill passed the previous year, it was found there were four to            
 six people who qualified.  Moving them out of the system allowed              
 great savings for medical care as they moved onto                             
 Medicare/Medicaid, he said, emphasizing that it was not out of                
 sympathy or a belief that the sentencing was wrong that they were             
 paroled.  Mr. Shriner concluded by saying department personnel felt           
 it was important for people to have their own computers for                   
 REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE commented on the irony that a person had to be           
 19 years old to use tobacco outside of prison, but not inside.  He            
 asked if anything in the bill could address that and commented that           
 the state should be enforcing its own laws.                                   
 MR. SHRINER stated he had that question, too, and that he would be            
 glad to pursue it.                                                            
 REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE asked if it was part of Cleary.                        
 MR. SHRINER replied he would get an answer.                                   
 Number 2314                                                                   
 CHAIRMAN PORTER asked if the requirement of the bill to have                  
 smoking in designated areas precluded cells.                                  
 MR. SHRINER replied, "As I read the bill, I don't think it                    
 precludes smoking in their cells."  In five Alaska institutions,              
 there was no smoking at all; he understood that in the remaining              
 ones, "designated area" meant either outside in the yard or in a              
 particular room.  He did not think there was any smoking in cells             
 CHAIRMAN PORTER asked if the provision would, then, have no affect            
 on policy.                                                                    
 MR. SHRINER responded, "I don't think so.  This is one of those               
 issues where we really agree and we just need some time to keep               
 moving on it."                                                                
 CHAIRMAN PORTER suggested this would provide the time if the                  
 department wanted to totally phase it out.  He asked Mr. Shriner if           
 the square foot requirements were, to his knowledge, greater or               
 lower than federal standards.                                                 
 Number 2365                                                                   
 MR. SHRINER replied, "It's my understanding, from talking to people           
 in the Department of Law, that that standard is greater than would            
 be required by the U.S. Constitution."  He pointed out that he was            
 an expert on neither Cleary nor the law.                                    
 CHAIRMAN PORTER asked if there was a specific federal or state                
 statute on square footage.                                                    
 MR. SHRINER expressed his understanding that there were court                 
 decisions making that determination.                                          
 Number 2377                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE VEZEY asked what the average size was for a typical            
 cell and how Alaska conformed to the standard adopted under Cleary.         
 MR. SHRINER said he could not provide a good example.  However, a             
 month before, in touring the Wildwood facility, he had been                   
 informed that some cells there were slightly below the Cleary               
 minimum.  "I think, in general, it's fair to say that we meet that            
 standard," he said.  "I doubt that we exceed it."  He noted there             
 had been attempts to turn visiting rooms, for example, into cell              
 space whenever feasible.                                                      
 Number 2438                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE VEZEY said he had information that at Spring Creek,            
 there were two-man cells of 138 square feet, two square feet shy of           
 being three-man cells.                                                        
 MR. SHRINER responded that he did not know about that.                        
 REPRESENTATIVE TOOHEY referred to a hand-out relating to policies             
 on televisions and asked what "honor status" meant.                           
 MR. SHRINER said when an inmate had met certain requirements, they            
 would be given that status by the facility.  He said the most                 
 televisions per room were at long-term facilities, such as Spring             
 TAPE 96-45, SIDE B                                                            
 Number 0052                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE VEZEY asked about the Department of Corrections'               
 position on physical training equipment.                                      
 MR. SHRINER replied, "That's a tough one.  We have different kinds            
 of weight systems in different places."   Some places had free                
 weights and barbells.  Some had Nautilus-type equipment with                  
 cables.  At Lemon Creek, for example, there was a system designed             
 by staff and residents that was fastened to the wall.  "In general,           
 the way we think of weight training is no different than we think             
 of televisions," he stated.  "For some people that's important and            
 it occupies their time."   Superintendents had told him they were             
 unaware of instances, in the Alaska system, at least, where anyone            
 involved in body-building had committed any serious physical acts             
 against another person inside the facility.  Although they were not           
 aware of incidents outside, either, Mr. Shriner acknowledged that             
 was not good information, as the department did not keep track of             
 it.  The department saw body-building as part of management.  Mr.             
 Shriner commented that there were not enough jobs to occupy inmates           
 eight hours a day.  For that reason, he was concerned about                   
 instituting systems in prison where having a job was rewarded with            
 use of a television.                                                          
 Number 0157                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE commented that he thought free weights might             
 be handy weapons.                                                             
 MR. SHRINER indicated he had been told, in response to a question,            
 that free weights had never been used as a weapon.                            
 Number 0188                                                                   
 SENATOR DONLEY explained that the Senate amended the original bill            
 to allow inmates to use computers other than those provided by the            
 state.  If a private company wanted to donate computers, for                  
 example, inmates could use those, or their own computers, in common           
 areas but not in their cells.                                                 
 REPRESENTATIVE TOOHEY asked about e-mail and related options.                 
 SENATOR DONLEY said, "There was a horrific experience in the                  
 federal prisons with that."  He said e-mail, as well as other                 
 computer use, was now prohibited for federal inmates.                         
 Number 0240                                                                   
 ANNE CARPENETI, Assistant Attorney General, Criminal Division,                
 Department of Law, testified that she had one comment on the bill.            
 She referred to page 3, lines 10-13, the provision prohibiting the            
 commissioner from providing living conditions and recreational                
 opportunities to prisoners exceeding conditions required by the               
 U.S. Constitution or the Alaska Constitution.  She said, "In                  
 regards to living conditions, as they relate to space, this would             
 require us to reopen the Cleary settlement because there are                
 conditions in the Cleary settlement that do exceed the federal              
 constitutional requirements in that regard."                                  
 CHAIRMAN PORTER asked if, notwithstanding Cleary, there was clear           
 federal or state case law on square foot requirements.                        
 MS. CARPENETI explained that Mr. Guaneli, Chief Assistant Attorney            
 General, who handled all prisoner and correctional issues for the             
 department, was out of town.  She offered to provide answers later.           
 Number 0309                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE FINKELSTEIN asked if the department believed it was            
 in the interest of the state to reopen the Cleary decision at this          
 MS. CARPENETI said she had not discussed it with Mr. Guaneli.  The            
 issue was complex enough that she did not want to speculate.                  
 CHAIRMAN PORTER asked:  "Would you agree with what we understand              
 the Department of Law's position to be, that this statute, if                 
 passed into law, would supersede, in the supremacy of the law, the            
 Cleary agreement, to the extent that it was contradictory?"                 
 MS. CARPENETI replied, "I believe so, yes.  I agree with that."               
 Number 0370                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE FINKELSTEIN asked if any court cases indicated                 
 fundamental constitutional requirements had changed, so that the              
 state would do better in renegotiating, or whether anything else              
 had changed since the Cleary settlement.                                    
 MS. CARPENETI replied, "Not to my knowledge, but my knowledge is              
 very limited.  And when you asked the question about the agreement,           
 ... I don't think that the statute would supersede an agreement               
 that the state has entered into.  But ... it would be the law, so             
 we would have to go in and renegotiate, I believe, to comply with             
 the law.  I don't think this would, on its own, negate a contract.            
 I think we would be required to renegotiate based on it."                     
 CHAIRMAN PORTER said, "The reason you would have to do that is that           
 the statute supersedes the agreement."                                        
 MS. CARPENETI replied, "Correct."                                             
 REPRESENTATIVE JOE GREEN asked Ms. Carpeneti whether it would                 
 unilaterally change an agreement if a law were to be passed that              
 conflicted with that prior agreement.                                         
 Number 0433                                                                   
 MS. CARPENETI indicated she would find out and respond on Monday.             
 She said Mr. Guaneli would be back Monday, as well.                           
 CHAIRMAN PORTER noted that the committee would meet the following             
 MS. CARPENETI asked if she should find out about cases on space               
 CHAIRMAN PORTER affirmed that.  He referred to page 3, line 10, and           
 indicated the committee was trying to determine whether they should           
 be more specific.  After asking if there was further testimony on             
 SB 175, he closed the public hearing on the bill.                             
 Number 0497                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE FINKELSTEIN presented a packet of seven amendments             
 dated March 28, 1996.  He offered Amendment 1, labeled                        
 "Finkelstein1", which read:                                                   
      Page 3, line 30:                                                         
           Delete "make unmonitored telephone calls, except for"               
           Insert "make telephone calls that are not subject to                
      monitoring; however,"                                                    
      Page 3, line 31, following "counsel":                                    
           Insert "may not be monitored"                                       
 REPRESENTATIVE FINKELSTEIN explained that inability to make                   
 unmonitored telephone calls would tax the resources of the prisons.           
 It was an internal management area of the prison system, which had            
 worked out elaborate schemes to deal with it.  "They don't believe            
 it's a problem as it stands," he said, explaining they believed the           
 current wording would drain their resources.                                  
 CHAIRMAN PORTER asked Senator Donley whether he had an amendment              
 that would address that area.                                                 
 Number 0573                                                                   
 SENATOR DONLEY said it had recently been pointed out to him that              
 this was addressed in another part of statute.  He had an amendment           
 that would remove that section from the bill, he said.  There was             
 an existing policy being followed, pursuant to an existing statute,           
 regarding what calls could be monitored.  He indicated existing               
 statute allowed unmonitored phone calls to an inmate's attorney and           
 to the ombudsman.                                                             
 CHAIRMAN PORTER said the Donley amendment would delete the                    
 subsection on page 3, lines 30-31.                                            
 REPRESENTATIVE FINKELSTEIN withdrew "Finkelstein 1" as Amendment 1            
 and offered as a replacement "Donley 1".                                      
 Number 0645                                                                   
 CHAIRMAN PORTER noted that "Finkelstein 1" had been replaced with             
 "Donley 1" as Amendment 1.  Amendment 1 to CSSSSB 175(FIN) AM now             
      Page 3, Line 30 to 31                                                    
           Delete subsection                                                   
      Renumber the following subsections accordingly.                          
 REPRESENTATIVE TOOHEY objected for clarification and said she                 
 thought there should be a right to monitor whatever calls they                
 wanted to.                                                                    
 CHAIRMAN PORTER said, "For your information, they do have that                
 ability.  They've got a system now that works in two areas.  One,             
 outgoing calls are now preceded by a taped message saying, `you are           
 receiving a call from an inmate in a correctional institution; if             
 you do not wish to receive this call, please hang up.'  So, all of            
 the games that were going on are eliminated.  The rest of the calls           
 are taped and sporadically monitored, and, of course, if there's a            
 complaint, they can go back and look it up ...."                              
 REPRESENTATIVE FINKELSTEIN said it was in the bill because of being           
 part of the federal no-frills prison act.                                     
 Number 0692                                                                   
 CHAIRMAN PORTER asked if there was discussion or any objection to             
 Amendment 1.  There being none, Amendment 1 passed.                           
 REPRESENTATIVE FINKELSTEIN offered Amendment 2 to CSSSSB 175(FIN)             
 AM, labeled "Finkelstein 2", which read:                                      
      Page 3, line 32 to page 4, line 1:                                       
           Delete subsection                                                   
      Renumber the following subsections accordingly.                          
 The subsection under discussion, AS 33.30.015(a)(2)(B), prohibited            
 the commissioner from allowing a state prisoner to possess a                  
 compact disc (CD) player, a video cassette recorder (VCR), or a               
 computer in the prisoner's cell.                                              
 Number 0704                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE FINKELSTEIN said the argument was that these were              
 critical management tools for running prisons.  No evidence existed           
 that problems were created by them, he said, and benefits exceeded            
 any image problem.  He expressed that computers were tools and that           
 computer skills were some of the best skills one could acquire.  He           
 addressed the suggestion that CDs could be weapons and noted that             
 tape cassettes, which had hard plastic, could also be used and were           
 potential containers for drugs; however, they were not banned.  He            
 noted that prisoners used utensils, as well.  He saw this provision           
 as micro-management.                                                          
 Number 0827                                                                   
 SENATOR DONLEY voiced that forks and spoons used in prisons now               
 were made from a special plastic which, when broken, produced no              
 sharp edges.  "The CD provision was actually one that I've had                
 specific comments from prison guards saying, `thank you' for," he             
 said.  He noted that the bill did not require that prisoners be               
 allowed to have tape cassettes.  As for computers, he reiterated              
 that prisoners could have them in common areas.                               
 CHAIRMAN PORTER referred to testimony from the department                     
 indicating computers in the cells were being used for educational             
 purposes.  He asked if putting the computers in common areas would            
 not create additional need for supervision by guards, a need that             
 would not exist if prisoners were locked in their cells.                      
 Number 0916                                                                   
 SENATOR DONLEY replied, "Probably."  It would be less convenient              
 for prisoners, as well.  He noted that federal prisons completely             
 banned computers, even in general areas, because of misuse.  "In              
 fact, the warden was expressing to me he thought the federal                  
 government went too far banning them from common areas," Senator              
 Donley stated.                                                                
 CHAIRMAN PORTER asked what kind of bad experiences there had been.            
 SENATOR DONLEY replied the prisoners got into the Internet and                
 caused havoc.                                                                 
 CHAIRMAN PORTER asked if disallowing hooking up with any                      
 intercommunication capability would solve the problem.                        
 SENATOR DONLEY said, "Not completely," adding that computers were             
 recreational and a huge luxury.  He saw no justification for                  
 allowing a prisoner to spend three years playing computer games in            
 his cell.                                                                     
 Number 1044                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE FINKELSTEIN asked if there was any evidence of                 
 private telephone lines going into any cells in Alaska.  He did not           
 see how one could tap into the system without a private phone line.           
 SENATOR DONLEY said he was responding to the chairman's question              
 about experiences in the federal prisons and that he was relating             
 the warden's support of the decision except for common areas.                 
 REPRESENTATIVE FINKELSTEIN thought it was irrelevant since there              
 were no phone lines into cells.  He suggested that most prisoners             
 used older computer equipment.  He believed acquiring computer                
 skills, even if inmates also played games, was valuable.  Prisoners           
 were not wasting time but had time to fill.                                   
 SENATOR DONLEY clarified that prisoners did not have to buy                   
 computers with their own money.  Many people's families bought                
 expensive computers for them.                                                 
 REPRESENTATIVE FINKELSTEIN thought that was not the rule and that             
 most prisoners had older computers.                                           
 Number 1227                                                                   
 CHAIRMAN PORTER noted that the motion was to delete subsection (B),           
 line 32, page 3, regarding possession of a compact disc player,               
 video cassette recorder or computer in the cell.  He expressed                
 mixed feelings since allowing computers only out of the cell would            
 require more supervision.  He asked the sponsor what he would think           
 if the amendment only addressed CD players and VCRs.                          
 SENATOR DONLEY replied it would be a step forward from what they              
 had now.                                                                      
 Number 1310                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE FINKELSTEIN suggested splitting Amendment 2 and                
 dividing the question into three parts.  He moved that Amendment 2            
 be divided.                                                                   
 CHAIRMAN PORTER noted the motion and asked if there was an                    
 objection.  There being none, Amendment 2 was divided.  Chairman              
 Porter noted that the first motion was to remove compact disc                 
 REPRESENTATIVE FINKELSTEIN restated previous comments on CD players           
 and tape cassettes.                                                           
 CHAIRMAN PORTER asked if there was further discussion and asked for           
 a roll call vote.  He said a yes vote would be a vote to remove CD            
 REPRESENTATIVE VEZEY asked if that was to remove it from "the                 
 CHAIRMAN PORTER concurred.  Voting for the first part of the                  
 amendment were Representatives Bunde, Toohey, Finkelstein and                 
 Porter.  Voting against it were Representatives Vezey and Green.              
 Representative B. Davis was absent.  Chairman Porter named the                
 portion voted on Amendment 2A and noted that compact disc player              
 had been eliminated from the amendment.                                       
 Several committee members objected simultaneously that that was not           
 what had been voted on.                                                       
 REPRESENTATIVE TOOHEY said, "We removed the disc player.  We're               
 taking it away from the room."                                                
 Number 1422                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE FINKELSTEIN said Representative Vezey had clarified            
 that it was removing it from the verbiage, which Representative               
 Finkelstein saw as removing it from the bill.  "It wasn't amending            
 the amendment, it was splitting the amendment.  So, we were just              
 voting on that one piece, removing CDs from the bill," he said.               
 CHAIRMAN PORTER stated, "But what I was doing was thinking, at                
 least, that we were removing the language from the amendment, not             
 from the bill.  The effect would be a reversal, I think, of what              
 some people thought we were voting on.                                        
 REPRESENTATIVE VEZEY said, "A no vote leaves it in."                          
 CHAIRMAN PORTER asked for a motion to rescind the previous action.            
 Number 1462                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN moved that the previous action on Amendment2A            
 be rescinded.                                                                 
 CHAIRMAN PORTER asked if there was an objection.  There being none,           
 the vote on Amendment 2A was rescinded.                                       
 REPRESENTATIVE FINKELSTEIN said, "I'm going to withdraw the                   
 CHAIRMAN PORTER noted it was withdrawn.                                       
 REPRESENTATIVE VEZEY said the motion was on a divided question.               
 REPRESENTATIVE TOOHEY asked if possessing a compact disc in the               
 cell was being removed.                                                       
 CHAIRMAN PORTER noted that Representative Finkelstein had withdrawn           
 the motion to divide.                                                         
 REPRESENTATIVE FINKELSTEIN said, "Then they remain banned, in the             
 bill, from the cell."                                                         
 Number 1538                                                                   
 CHAIRMAN PORTER noted that Amendment 2 was before the committee.              
 It removed the prohibition to have in the cell a CD player,  VCR              
 and computer.  He said a yes vote would remove the language from              
 the bill.                                                                     
 REPRESENTATIVE FINKELSTEIN asked if they were on 2B.                          
 CHAIRMAN PORTER said no.                                                      
 REPRESENTATIVE FINKELSTEIN replied, "The question was divided into            
 three.  I withdrew 2A and I thought we were on 2B."                           
 CHAIRMAN PORTER said, "I thought you meant to remove the division."           
 REPRESENTATIVE FINKELSTEIN stated, "No, I can't remove the                    
 division, I don't think."  He added, "We already acted on that.               
 You said it was allowed and without objection, it was divided.  I             
 withdrew the 2A and so now, we're on 2B.  I just wanted to offer 2B           
 and 2C, just to follow on the chair's recommendation that they be             
 done separately."                                                             
 Number 1602                                                                   
 CHAIRMAN PORTER referred to Amendment 2B and said a yes vote would            
 remove the reference to the video cassette recorder from the bill,            
 so it would not be prohibited in the cell.  He objected and asked             
 for a roll call vote.                                                         
 Number 1650                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE FINKELSTEIN commented that other areas of the bill             
 specified what could or could not be viewed, leaving relatively               
 mild and educational items.  He indicated VCRs could be a great               
 educational tool and that having them in cells would take less                
 CHAIRMAN PORTER asked if there was an objection.                              
 REPRESENTATIVE VEZEY objected.                                                
 CHAIRMAN PORTER asked for a roll call vote.  Voting for Amendment             
 2B were Representatives Toohey, Finkelstein, Bunde and Porter.                
 Voting against it were Representatives Vezey and Green.                       
 Representative B. Davis was absent.                                           
 REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE said he had a technical question.  "The bill             
 says there can only be TVs in common areas," he said.                         
 Number 1760                                                                   
 SENATOR DONLEY replied, "Unless you do the restitution and comply             
 with the court orders and you've got your GED.  Then, as a                    
 management tool, the department can let you have one in your cell."           
 REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE said, "My question was, there's no sense                 
 having a VCR if you don't have a TV to go with it."                           
 CHAIRMAN PORTER agreed but said there was a way to get a TV.  "In             
 effect, we've put VCRs under the same criteria as TVs," he said.              
 He noted that Amendment 2A had been withdrawn and Amendment 2B had            
 Number 1803                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE FINKELSTEIN referred to Amendment 2C and said he had           
 already made the argument in favor of a yes vote.                             
 CHAIRMAN PORTER said a yes vote would remove the prohibition of               
 computers in a cell from the bill.  He asked for a roll call vote.            
 Voting for Amendment 2C were Representatives Vezey, Finkelstein,              
 Green and Porter.  Voting against it were Representatives Bunde and           
 Toohey.  Representative B. Davis was absent.  Chairman Porter noted           
 that Amendment 2C passed.  He explained his vote by saying he could           
 not justify creating a higher expense with the same effect.                   
 REPRESENTATIVE TOOHEY asked to address the language "or do not have           
 a rating".                                                                    
 SENATOR DONLEY responded, "Could I just say, on line 2, after the             
 word `or' there, you just [say] `or not approved by the                       
 department', so the department could just delegate that authority             
 to their superintendents.                                                     
 CHAIRMAN PORTER noted there was a motion, which he named Amendment            
 2D, relating to page 4, lines 2-3.                                            
 SENATOR DONLEY clarified it was to insert language so it would read           
 "or not approved by the department that do not have a rating".                
 That way, he said, any educational movie without a rating could be            
 authorized by the department.                                                 
 REPRESENTATIVE FINKELSTEIN said, "Since we're using `or' statements           
 and not `and', any item in this series is precluded.  So, an item             
 that does not have a rating is precluded."                                    
 Number 1962                                                                   
 CHAIRMAN PORTER said, "unless approved by the department" would be            
 the way to say it, then.  He stated, "We would leave those phrases            
 and on line 3, add `unless approved by the department'."  He noted            
 that would be Amendment 2D.  He asked if there was an objection.              
 There being none, Amendment 2D passed.                                        
 Number 2017                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE FINKELSTEIN offered Amendment 3 to CSSSSB 175(FIN)             
 AM, labeled "Finkelstein 3", which read;                                      
      Page 4, line 10 to 12:                                                   
           Delete subsection                                                   
      Renumber the following subsections accordingly.                          
 REPRESENTATIVE FINKELSTEIN noted that Amendment 3 dealt with the              
 section on weight-lifting equipment.  He disagreed with the basic             
 argument and suggested that self-esteem issues were important in              
 prison populations.  He saw no clear line between aerobic and                 
 muscle-oriented exercises and said both were crucial to older                 
 populations, especially.  "These folks can actually find some way             
 to do these things, anyway," he said.  Furthermore, if passed, this           
 was the one item in the bill that would require renegotiation of              
 Cleary.  He encouraged a yes vote.                                          
 Number 2258                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN referred to concern expressed about misuse of            
 free weights.  He suggested placing `portable' between `to' and               
 `bodybuilding' on page 4, line 10, and between `other' and                    
 `equipment' on line 11.  That way, inmates could use weights to               
 work out but would not have free weights or something that they               
 could throw or misuse on the guards.                                          
 Number 2310                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE TOOHEY said, "We seem to allow prisoners to improve            
 their minds mentally but we don't allow them to improve their                 
 body."  She suggested improving one's body would add to self-                 
 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN said that was the reason for the friendly                
 amendment.  If equipment was not portable, one could still work               
 Number 2395                                                                   
 CHAIRMAN PORTER said he understood the sponsor's intent but that it           
 was unenforceable.                                                            
 SENATOR DONLEY responded, "But I think there's relative degrees of            
 efficiency in body-building."                                                 
 TAPE 96-46, SIDE A                                                            
 Number 0001                                                                   
 SENATOR DONLEY cited an example of a body-builder who beat up a               
 woman after getting out of jail.  Senator Donley believed the state           
 did not have to assist inmates with the process of body-building.             
 "I think they can, for health reasons, do it themselves," he said.            
 Number 0106                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE FINKELSTEIN believed state of mind was the issue.              
 Some might feel better about themselves and not beat up others if             
 they kept up their self-esteem, he suggested.  He said evidence               
 from the department indicated this was an activity they would                 
 prefer for prisoners over having them do nothing.                             
 CHAIRMAN PORTER noted that Amendment 3 would remove lines 10-12,              
 the prohibition on weight-lifting equipment.  He asked if there was           
 further discussion and then asked for a roll call vote.                       
 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN withdrew his amendment to Amendment3.                    
 CHAIRMAN PORTER asked to proceed with the vote.  Voting for                   
 Amendment 3 were Representatives Finkelstein, Bunde, Toohey, Vezey            
 and Porter.  Voting against it was Representative Green.                      
 Representative B. Davis was absent.  Chairman Porter noted that               
 Amendment 3 passed.                                                           
 Number 0309                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE FINKELSTEIN offered Amendment 4 to CSSSSB 175(FIN)             
 AM, labeled "Finkelstein 4", relating to possession in cells of               
 coffee pots, hot plates, appliances or heating elements for food              
 preparation.  Amendment 4 read:                                               
      Page 4, line 13 to 14:                                                   
           Delete subsection                                                   
      Renumber the following subsections accordingly.                          
 REPRESENTATIVE FINKELSTEIN did not recall any testimony on this               
 item.  However, from his conversation with the department, this was           
 a minor item that provided management tools and incentives for good           
 Number 0360                                                                   
 SENATOR DONLEY explained those items were not allowed anywhere in             
 any prison he knew of.                                                        
 REPRESENTATIVE FINKELSTEIN asked to hear from the department.                 
 CHAIRMAN PORTER asked Mr. Shriner if there was a significant amount           
 of coffee pots, hot plates, appliances or heating elements for food           
 preparation in cells.                                                         
 Number 0406                                                                   
 MR. SHRINER replied there may be some in long-term facilities such            
 as Spring Creek, but not in minimum security facilities.                      
 SENATOR DONLEY said, "I was told by the representative of the                 
 guards they don't allow them anywhere."                                       
 MR. SHRINER indicated he was not disagreeing.  He was saying they             
 may have.                                                                     
 Number 0447                                                                   
 CHAIRMAN PORTER objected to Amendment 4.                                      
 REPRESENTATIVE FINKELSTEIN said, "I don't see what the problem                
 we're solving is.  There's not even any evidence they're being                
 used.  There's just the possibility they might be necessary or                
 might be a good management tool in a long-term facility...."  He              
 asked why they should legislate on that subject when it was not a             
 CHAIRMAN PORTER asked if there was further discussion and requested           
 a roll call vote.  Voting for Amendment 4 was Representative                  
 Finkelstein.  Voting against it were Representatives Green, Bunde,            
 Toohey, Vezey and Porter.  Representative B. Davis was absent.                
 Chairman Porter noted that Amendment 4 failed.                                
 Number 0522                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE FINKELSTEIN offered Amendment 5 to CSSSSB 175(FIN)             
 AM, labeled "Finkelstein 5", which read:                                      
      Page 4, Line 18 to 20:                                                   
           Delete subsection                                                   
      Renumber the following subsections accordingly.                          
 REPRESENTATIVE FINKELSTEIN said Amendment 5 addressed when                    
 computers were allowed and that it was a conforming amendment.                
 Number 0680                                                                   
 CHAIRMAN PORTER pointed out the bill said "approved by the                    
 correctional facility".  He disagreed the amendment was conforming.           
 "It provides what it is that they're to be used for, but not                  
 where," he said.                                                              
 REPRESENTATIVE FINKELSTEIN replied, "The concept of the previous              
 one is that a computer in a cell was a reasonable thing.  This                
 would say it can only be used as part of their employment, which is           
 not going to be occurring in their cell, or as part of their                  
 vocational training, which ... may or may not be in their cell.  It           
 may not be exactly conforming, but certainly this conflicts with              
 the concept of ... allowing computers in cells."                              
 CHAIRMAN PORTER replied that, considering previous action, perhaps            
 the language needed an additional word to read "educational or                
 vocational training".                                                         
 REPRESENTATIVE FINKELSTEIN agreed.  He withdrew Amendment 5, saying           
 his next amendment took care of that.                                         
 CHAIRMAN PORTER noted that Amendment 5 was withdrawn, with                    
 permission of the group.                                                      
 Number 0718                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE FINKELSTEIN offered Amendment 6 to CSSSSB 175(FIN)             
 AM, labeled "Finkelstein 6", which read:                                      
      Page 4, line 19 following "employment":                                  
           Insert ", education"                                                
 CHAIRMAN PORTER said, "I think we've established that computers are           
 allowed in the cell by approval of the department, by eliminating             
 it from the prohibition.  But this would provide that the use in              
 the cell ... would be for employment, education or vocational                 
 training.  That's the effect of Amendment 6."  He asked if there              
 was an objection.                                                             
 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked Mr. Shriner whether the use of a                   
 computer in an inmate's cell could be monitored to comply with                
 Number 0779                                                                   
 MR. SHRINER replied that software was carefully screened.  "There's           
 nothing on there that we haven't approved of," he said.  Although             
 it might be difficult to determine if someone was playing a game              
 using spreadsheet software, for example, they could certainly                 
 prevent the loading of games onto a computer.                                 
 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN suggested that several games came with certain           
 hard drives.                                                                  
 MR. SHRINER believed those games could be removed.                            
 CHAIRMAN PORTER asked if there was further discussion or an                   
 objection to Amendment 6.  There being none, Amendment 6 passed.              
 Number 0856                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE FINKELSTEIN introduced Amendment 7 to CSSSSB                   
 175(FIN) AM, labeled "Finkelstein 7", which read:                             
      Page 4, line 29 to page 5, line 13:                                      
           Delete all material                                                 
 REPRESENTATIVE FINKELSTEIN explained Amendment 7 addressed when               
 prisoners were allowed to have televisions.  In a previous                    
 amendment, inmates had been allowed to have televisions and VCRs in           
 a cell, he said.  "The bill uses the approach that they've got to             
 have a high school diploma or a GED and meet three other standards            
 before they can actually have the TV in their cell," he stated.               
 "The testimony from the department has been that this is an                   
 important management tool....  Some people are not going to be able           
 to get their GED. ... Some folks can barely read and write, and               
 that doesn't mean they're a higher or lower risk in that particular           
 setting, nor that it's going to be in the interest of the prison to           
 exclude that particular person.  Those folks are more problem-                
 ridden already."  He said prisons could impose restrictions as a              
 management tool and added, "But to mandate in legislation, to give            
 them no recourse and to make that many more people who ... they are           
 unable to use that incentive tool on, I think is counter-                     
 REPRESENTATIVE TOOHEY mentioned the possibility of exempting people           
 lacking the mental capacity to meet requirements.                             
 Number 1030                                                                   
 CHAIRMAN PORTER suggested wording similar to "is capable of and has           
 attained".  Even for those incapable of attaining a GED, it would             
 still require some sort of training and meeting other requirements.           
 He asked:  "Would that work, to eliminate the absolute prohibition            
 about someone who was mentally incapable of attaining his GED?"               
 MR. SHRINER replied he believed that could be done and assessments            
 CHAIRMAN PORTER stated, "To the extent that we would word it                  
 something like that, the department would make that judgment."                
 REPRESENTATIVE FINKELSTEIN said, "If that's the goal, my suggestion           
 is we just take out the part that you've got to have a high school            
 diploma or a GED."                                                            
 CHAIRMAN PORTER indicated he liked it for prisoners who were                  
 REPRESENTATIVE TOOHEY concurred.                                              
 Number 1110                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE FINKELSTEIN indicated low IQ was not the only reason           
 people did not make it through school.  Many could not read or                
 write.  "It's not something you can do in just a matter of a year,            
 which is all the time given here to achieve that," he commented,              
 adding that many people would not make it.  He said, "I'd withdraw            
 my [Amendment] 7 and offer as a replacement just removing page 5,             
 line 3 and 4, and leaving the rest in place."                                 
 REPRESENTATIVE TOOHEY objected.                                               
 CHAIRMAN PORTER said, "For the purposes of discussion, I'll accept            
 the withdrawal of number 7 and a submission of an amended number 7            
 that only calls for the withdrawal, if you will, of lines 3 and 4             
 on page 5.  So, that would be in front of us."                                
 Number 1201                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE TOOHEY responded, "We're not taking their daily                
 sustenance away.  We're taking a television set away."  She thought           
 it was important to leave in requirements relating to the GED,                
 educational and vocational programs.                                          
 Number 1227                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE FINKELSTEIN clarified that being engaged in                    
 educational or vocational training or an employment program would             
 still be required.  "This amendment just removes the high school              
 diploma or GED," he said.  "So, I believe the second part still               
 achieves it.  They've got to be involved in some sort of                      
 educational activity and that determination is made by the prison.            
 So, I believe it achieves all the same goals.  It just doesn't                
 automatically exclude someone because their physical abilities or             
 their past educational efforts make it unrealistic to get a high              
 school diploma."                                                              
 REPRESENTATIVE TOOHEY responded, "Somebody that has not finished              
 high school has a mental block that says they're stupid."  She                
 indicated she was one of those people until she received a GED.               
 She believed that people who had not received a GED were in                   
 Number 1295                                                                   
 CHAIRMAN PORTER suggested handling the two issues separately.  He             
 said, "The first issue is shall we eliminate the requirement.  I              
 intend to offer something regarding `is capable of'."  He noted               
 that the first issue, Amendment 7, was elimination of lines 3 and             
 4, page 5.  He asked if there was further discussion and then                 
 requested a roll call vote.  Voting for Amendment 7 were                      
 Representatives Green, Bunde and Finkelstein.  Voting against it              
 were Representatives Toohey, Vezey and Porter.  Chairman Porter               
 noted that Amendment 7 failed.                                                
 CHAIRMAN PORTER said he would entertain a conceptual amendment to             
 add to that line something to the effect of "is capable of and has            
 attained", recognizing that the determination would be up to the              
 department.  He noted it would be Amendment 8.                                
 Number 1353                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE TOOHEY said, "So moved."                                       
 CHAIRMAN PORTER noted that Amendment 8 conceptually inserted on               
 line3, page 5, subsection (1), the phrase "is incapable of or"                
 before the phrase "has attained a high school diploma or general              
 education development diploma or the equivalent".  He asked if                
 there was an objection.  There being none, Amendment 8 passed.                
 Number 1405                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE FINKELSTEIN offered Amendment 9 to CSSSSB 175(FIN)             
 AM, which read:                                                               
      Page 5, line 7, following "satisfied":                                   
           Insert ", or is on a regular and current payment schedule           
 REPRESENTATIVE FINKELSTEIN explained, "This goes to the requirement           
 ... on page 5, line 7, that they've satisfied all restitution                 
 ordered."  He indicated some people had long-term payment                     
 schedules.  The department believed those people should not be                
 precluded as long as they met their agreed payment schedule.                  
 Number 1478                                                                   
 CHAIRMAN PORTER acknowledged it made sense from the standpoint of             
 providing motivation for restitution on large bills.  He asked if             
 there was an objection.  There being none, Amendment 9 passed.                
 SENATOR DONLEY commented that the department had a "pretty                    
 miserable record of dealing with the victims of crime."  He hoped             
 efforts to keep prisoners happy did not result in victims being               
 ignored again.                                                                
 CHAIRMAN PORTER indicated victims' rights had risen to a                      
 constitutional level equal to defendants' rights.                             
 Number 1570                                                                   
 CHAIRMAN PORTER referred to page 4 and noted that lines 10-12 had             
 been deleted.  He asked Tom Meyer to explain a technical problem              
 that had occurred.                                                            
 THOMAS MEYER, Committee Aide, House Judiciary Committee, said "You            
 have to go back up to subsection (E) and take out the part where              
 they can't engage in bodybuilding or weight lifting."                         
 REPRESENTATIVE FINKELSTEIN asked if that could be left to the bill            
 CHAIRMAN PORTER agreed and noted it needed to be addressed as a               
 conforming amendment to Amendment 4.  He specified that the phrase            
 "in bodybuilding or weight lifting" should be deleted.                        
 Number 1652                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE FINKELSTEIN offered Amendment 10 to CSSSSB 175(FIN)            
 AM, saying he wanted it on the record to show his objection to                
 micro-management.  Amendment 10 read:                                         
      Page 5, line 14:                                                         
           Insert new subsection as follows:                                   
           (f) The commissioner shall only allow television viewing            
      of the following programs                                                
               (1) any Walt Disney production;                                 
               (2) "The Waltons";                                              
               (3) "Little House on the Prairie";                              
               (five more subsections in similar vein not included)            
 REPRESENTATIVE FINKELSTEIN immediately withdrew Amendment 10.                 
 Number 1667                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE FINKELSTEIN offered Amendment 11 to CSSSSB 175(FIN)            
 AM, dated 3/20/96 and labeled "Z.1", which read:                              
      Page 4, line 32:                                                         
           Delete "January 1, 1997"                                            
           Insert "January 1, 1998"                                            
 CHAIRMAN PORTER asked Senator Donley if he supported the amendment.           
 SENATOR DONLEY replied, "Most of the reasons that people asked me             
 to do that amendment, the committee has taken out of the bill now."           
 REPRESENTATIVE TOOHEY said she objected, anyway.                              
 REPRESENTATIVE FINKELSTEIN stated, "I thought in your statement               
 that this was to ... give them a year to meet the requirements for            
 a GED and a high school diploma."                                             
 Number 1708                                                                   
 CHAIRMAN PORTER asked if there was an objection to Amendment 11.              
 REPRESENTATIVE TOOHEY restated her objection.                                 
 CHAIRMAN PORTER asked for a roll call vote.  Voting for                       
 Amendment11 were Representatives Bunde, Finkelstein, Green and                
 Porter.  Voting against it was Representative Toohey.                         
 Representatives Vezey and B. Davis were absent.  Chairman Porter              
 noted that Amendment 11 passed.                                               
 Number 1744                                                                   
 CHAIRMAN PORTER mentioned that Anne Carpeneti was going to provide            
 information about square footage requirements.                                
 SENATOR DONLEY stated there was a "substantial difference test"               
 between what the constitution would require and what would actually           
 be provided.  He did not know if they would be able to get an                 
 answer.  "We know what Cleary requires," he said.  "And probably            
 the biggest problem here, of course, is the issue of the                      
 dormitories, whether the state, in new construction of prisons,               
 should be able to provide for some sort of ... reasonable dormitory           
 accommodation, which would conform with the United States                     
 Constitution, versus having to provide two- or three-people rooms             
 for everybody.  The bill ... goes a way towards that now, freeing             
 up the state's flexibility."                                                  
 Number 1790                                                                   
 CHAIRMAN PORTER indicated that if some obvious course was developed           
 in the next week, they could get together with the sponsor and                
 develop an amendment in the House Finance Committee.                          
 REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE moved that CSSSSB 175, as amended, move from             
 committee with individual recommendations and attached fiscal                 
 CHAIRMAN PORTER noted there was a motion to move the bill, as                 
 amended, with individual recommendations and attached fiscal notes.           
 He asked if there was an objection.  There being none, CSSSSB 175,            
 as amended, moved from the House Judiciary Committee.                         
 There being no further business to conduct, the House Judiciary               
 Committee meeting was adjourned at 3:25 p.m.                                  

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