Legislature(1995 - 1996)

02/07/1996 05:05 PM FSH

Audio Topic
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
txt
              HOUSE SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON FISHERIES                             
                        February 7, 1996                                       
                           5:05 p.m.                                           
                                                                               
                                                                               
 MEMBERS PRESENT                                                               
                                                                               
 Representative Alan Austerman, Chairman                                       
 Representative Carl Moses, Vice Chairman                                      
 Representative Scott Ogan                                                     
 Representative Kim Elton                                                      
                                                                               
 MEMBERS ABSENT                                                                
                                                                               
 Representative Gary Davis                                                     
                                                                               
 COMMITTEE CALENDAR                                                            
                                                                               
 HOUSE BILL NO. 175                                                          
 "An Act relating to sport fish guides; and providing for an                   
 effective date."                                                              
                                                                               
      - HEARD AND HELD                                                         
 HOUSE BILL NO. 118                                                          
 "An Act relating to seafood marketing, to the definition of                   
 `seafood' for purposes of the Alaska Seafood Marketing Institute,             
 and to an aquatic farm product marketing tax; and providing for an            
 effective date."                                                              
                                                                               
      - BILL POSTPONED                                                         
                                                                               
 PREVIOUS ACTION                                                               
                                                                               
 BILL:  HB 175                                                               
 SHORT TITLE: SPORT FISH GUIDE LICENSING                                       
 SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) AUSTERMAN,Ivan                                  
                                                                               
 JRN-DATE     JRN-PG    ACTION                                                 
 02/10/95       303    (H)   READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)                 
 02/10/95       303    (H)   FSH, RESOURCES, FINANCE                           
 02/27/95       511    (H)   COSPONSOR(S): IVAN                                
 03/13/95              (H)   FSH AT 05:00 PM CAPITOL 124                       
 03/13/95              (H)   MINUTE(FSH)                                       
 03/29/95              (H)   FSH AT 05:00 PM CAPITOL 124                       
 03/29/95              (H)   MINUTE(FSH)                                       
 01/31/96              (H)   FSH AT 05:00 PM CAPITOL 124                       
 01/31/96     (H)   MINUTE(FSH)                                                
 02/07/96              (H)   FSH AT 05:00 PM CAPITOL 124                       
                                                                               
 BILL:  HB 118                                                               
 SHORT TITLE: SEAFOOD MARKETING / AQUATIC PRODUCT TAX                          
 SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) AUSTERMAN                                       
                                                                               
 JRN-DATE     JRN-PG    ACTION                                                 
 01/25/95       131    (H)   READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)                 
 01/25/95       131    (H)   FSH, L&C, FIN                                     
                                                                               
 WITNESS REGISTER                                                              
                                                                               
 AMY DAUGHERTY, Legislative Staff                                              
    to Representative Alan Austerman                                           
 Alaska State Legislature                                                      
 Capitol, Room 434                                                             
 Juneau, AK  99801                                                             
 Telephone:  (907) 465-4230                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Explained changes in CSHB 175, version K.                
                                                                               
 ERIC STIRRUP, Owner                                                           
 Kodiak Western Charter                                                        
 P. O. Box 4123                                                                
 Kodiak, AK  99615                                                             
 Telephone:  (907)486-2200                                                     
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Has concerns with CSHB 175, version K.                   
                                                                               
 BARBARA BINGHAM                                                               
 P. O. Box 6112                                                                
 Sitka, AK  99835                                                              
 Telephone:  (907) 747-8883                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT: Wanted further clarification on CSHB 175.K.               
                                                                               
 THERESA WEISER                                                                
 P. O. Box 2300                                                                
 Sitka, AK  99835                                                              
 Telephone:  (07) 747-5777                                                     
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Has concerns with CSHB 175.K as written.                 
                                                                               
 KEN LARSON                                                                    
 Sanity Charters                                                               
 1071 Elizabeth Street                                                         
 North Pole, AK  99705                                                         
 Telephone:  (907) 488-2960                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Wanted further clarification on CSHB 175.K.              
                                                                               
 DENNIS PETRIE                                                                 
 5901 Boondox Drive                                                            
 Salcha, AK  99714                                                             
 Telephone:  (907) 488-4589                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Asked for further clarification on CSHB 175.K.           
                                                                               
 KEVIN DELANEY, Director                                                       
 Division of Sport Fish                                                        
 Department of Fish and Game                                                   
 333 Raspberry Road                                                            
 Anchorage, AK  99518-1579                                                     
 Telephone:  (907)  267-2218                                                   
 POSITION STATEMENT: Clarified & made recommendations to CSHB 175.K.           
                                                                               
 MIKE KRAMER                                                                   
 P. O. Box 73196                                                               
 Fairbanks, AK  99707                                                          
 Telephone:  (907) 479-0860                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Has concerns with CSHB 175.K.                            
                                                                               
 KEN AULT, Owner                                                               
 Northern Alaska Fisheries                                                     
 P. O. Box 10104                                                               
 Fairbanks, AK  99810                                                          
 Telephone:  (907) 457-4124                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Has concerns with CSHB 175.K.                            
                                                                               
 DENNIS KETCHUM, Charter Operator                                              
 2343 Second Avenue                                                            
 Ketchikan, AK  99901                                                          
 Telephone:  (907) 225-4232                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Wanted further clarification on CSHB 175.K.              
                                                                               
 BARRY BRACKEN                                                                 
 Kaleidoscope Cruises                                                          
 P. O. Box 1201                                                                
 Petersburg, AK  99833                                                         
 Telephone:  (907) 772-3736                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified in support of CSHB 175.K.                      
                                                                               
 BUD HODSON, Chair                                                             
 Sport Fishing Guide/Charter                                                   
   Task Force                                                                  
 4852 Hunter Drive                                                             
 Anchorage, AK  99502                                                          
 Telephone:  (907) 243-8450                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT: Clarified & made recommendations to CSHB 175.K.           
                                                                               
 PATRICK BOOKEY                                                                
 Luck of the Irish Charters                                                    
 P. O. Box 55194                                                               
 North Pole, AK  99705                                                         
 Telephone:  (907) 488-9890                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Opposed to CSHB 175.K as written.                        
                                                                               
 ACTION NARRATIVE                                                              
                                                                               
 TAPE 96-5, SIDE A                                                             
 Number 000                                                                    
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN ALAN AUSTERMAN called the House Special Committee on                 
 Fisheries meeting to order at 5:05 p.m.  Members present at the               
 call to order were Representatives Austerman, Moses, Elton and                
 Ogan.  Representative Gary Davis was absent.                                  
                                                                               
 HB 175 - SPORT FISH GUIDE LICENSE                                           
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN said that following the House Special Committee            
 on Fisheries meeting of January 31, 1996, his office prepared a               
 draft committee substitute, version "K,"  based on recommendations            
 from that hearing.  That committee substitute has been forwarded to           
 all Legislative Information offices and the committee would hear              
 testimony on the proposed amendments.                                         
                                                                               
 Number 061                                                                    
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE KIM ELTON moved that CS HB 175 "K" be adopted as the           
 working document.  Hearing no objection, it was so ordered.                   
                                                                               
 Number 102                                                                    
                                                                               
 AMY DAUGHERTY, Legislative Staff to Representative Alan Austerman,            
 said version "K" incorporates several changes:                                
                                                                               
 (1)  A `transporter' license is now included in the bill language             
 for those who provide only transportation services to sport or                
 personal use fishermen.  If the Department of Fish and Game should            
 choose, information derived from this sector could help portray the           
 entire industry.                                                              
                                                                               
 (2)  In this draft, the Department of Fish and Game is the only               
 agency from which a sport fish guide license or operators or                  
 transporters license will be issued.  There are pros and cons of              
 consolidating the guide licensing effort which the sponsor wanted             
 brought forward in discussion today.  This may minimize                       
 coordination problems and provide for the one license proposal for            
 the owner-operator guide.                                                     
                                                                               
 (3)  All reference to subsistence has been omitted due to feedback            
 from the Native community.                                                    
                                                                               
 (4)  U. S. Citizenship was reestablished as a requirement to guide            
 license.                                                                      
                                                                               
 (5)  Exception to definitions were removed as per George Utermohle,           
 Legislative Legal, memorandum dated January 29, 1996.                         
                                                                               
 MS. DAUGHERTY said some definitions may need further expansion                
 because the exceptions were removed, there may be loopholes and the           
 chairman wants feedback on that as well.                                      
                                                                               
 MS. DAUGHERTY said there were nine amendments to HB 175, some                 
 drafted by legislative legal and some drafted by staff.  These                
 amendments have been transmitted to all Legislative Information               
 offices.                                                                      
                                                                               
 Number 290                                                                    
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE SCOTT OGAN asked for more clarification on the                 
 "transporter" license.                                                        
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN said the "transporter license" begins on page 5,           
 line ten.  He said the fly-in industry has a large impact on the              
 fisheries as well as the charter boat operations.  He said this was           
 included for discussion purposes and for possible inclusion in the            
 bill.  It is basically patterned after the big game statutes.                 
                                                                               
 Number 488                                                                    
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN said, of the transporters who are licensed                
 under the Division of Occupational Licensing to transport for big             
 game, the hunters currently have to have a transporter's license              
 and are issued a sticker for the airplane.  He asked if this                  
 "transporter license" would be in addition to the big game license.           
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN said his intent is to have fisheries and game on           
 the same transporter license form.  He said it is a matter of                 
 establishing a reporting system.                                              
                                                                               
 Number 580                                                                    
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN discussed with the chairman the committee's               
 goal of consolidating licensing under just the Department of Fish             
 and Game.                                                                     
                                                                               
 Number 734                                                                    
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN brought forward the additional amendments and              
 addressed amendment K.1:                                                      
                                                                               
 Page 4, lines 23 - 24.  Delete all material and insert:  "3) a                
 driver's license or similar identification card issued by a state             
 of federal agency that bears a photograph of the fishing guide."              
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN said his office has received input regarding the           
 amendment that the stipulation is probably more than what is                  
 required.  He said the committee is recommending that it be deleted           
 and renumbered accordingly.                                                   
                                                                               
 Number 798                                                                    
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE ELTON clarified that it was the chairman's intent on           
 page 4, lines 23 - 24, to delete all material and insert the                  
 amendment.  Representative Elton moved that amendment K.1 be                  
 adopted.                                                                      
                                                                               
 Number 830                                                                    
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN asked for further discussion on the amendment.            
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN said the amendment cleans up the statute.                  
 Hearing no objection, amendment K.1 was adopted.                              
                                                                               
 Number 884                                                                    
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN brought forth amendment K.2:                               
                                                                               
 Page 4, line 17, after "fishing,"  Insert "from a vessel"                     
 Page 6, line 19, delete "accompanying and."                                   
                                                                               
 Number 929                                                                    
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE ELTON moved to adopt amendment K.2, but first asked            
 clarification of the language on page 6, line 19.                             
                                                                               
 MS. DAUGHERTY said the intent was to remove the requirement that              
 the guide had to be physically present at all times.                          
                                                                               
 Number 1080                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN clarified that the language meant the guide had           
 to be present with a sport or personal use fisherman while fishing            
 from a vessel.  But on land, the sport fisherman could meander off            
 and do his own fishing.                                                       
                                                                               
 1148                                                                          
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN said hearing no objection, amendment K.2 was               
 adopted.  He brought forward amendment number three.                          
                                                                               
 Page 4, line 1, after `issued", insert "if required"                          
                                                                               
 The chairman elaborated that this amendment pertains to a situation           
 of guiding on the river, or raft fishing or in a canoe; a guide is            
 not required to have a Coast Guard license.                                   
                                                                               
 Number 1200                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE ELTON asked, what about a guide who is flying to the           
 lake; lands on the lake, provides the service and leaves?                     
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN said the Coast Guard does not require a six-pack           
 license at present.  He said there are requirements under 14 C.F.R.           
 Part 135 that cover aircraft and would come under the transporter             
 license.                                                                      
 Number 1260                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN cited AS 16.40.360 and theorized that a guide             
 was discovered without a transporter license or an identification             
 card.  Is this an offense that is administratively disciplined or             
 is it a public safety violation?                                              
                                                                               
 Number 1374                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN discussed the role of the Department of                   
 Commerce and Economic Development and the Department of Natural               
 Resources concerning possibilities of enforcement regulations.                
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN said budget restraints are a big factor.                   
                                                                               
 Number 1451                                                                   
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN referred to page 6, line 5 (c) A person who                
 violates AS 16.40.350 - 16.40.90 or a regulation adopted under AS             
 16.40.350 - 16.40.390 is guilty of a class A misdemeanor.                     
                                                                               
 Number 1501                                                                   
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN discussed the second part of amendment number              
 three.  Page 4, line 30. after "licensure", insert "if required,".            
                                                                               
 Number 1525                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE ELTON moved to adopt amendment number three.                   
 Hearing no objections, it was so ordered.                                     
                                                                               
 Number 1540                                                                   
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN said amendment number four was basically a                 
 housekeeping measure to clean up a typographical error:                       
                                                                               
 Page 2, line 18, after "shall", insert ", in addition to the                  
 penalty imposed by law,"                                                      
                                                                               
 Number 1591                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE ELTON moved to adopt amendment number four.  Hearing           
 no objections, it was so ordered.                                             
                                                                               
 Number 1615                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN asked if this amendment was "double jeopardy?'            
 It was not.                                                                   
                                                                               
 Number 1659                                                                   
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN brought amendment number five to the table:                
 Page 4, delete lines 4 and 5 and renumber accordingly.                        
                                                                               
 Number 1697                                                                   
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN said there was concern that the present language           
 stipulated that an individual had to be an employee of a licensed             
 fishing service operator to obtain a guide license.  This amendment           
 eliminates having to provide proof to obtain a guide license, such            
 as a commercial fishermen who gets a commercial license and then              
 goes out on whatever boat he wants to go on.                                  
                                                                               
 Number 1779                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE ELTON moved amendment number five.  Hearing no                 
 objection, it was so ordered.                                                 
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN brought amendment number six to the table and              
 explained that the language change meant that the Alaska Marine               
 Highway system will be covered as well.                                       
                                                                               
 Page 6, line 11, delete "road", insert "highway as defined under AS           
 19.45.001 (9)"                                                                
                                                                               
                                                                               
 Number 1817                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE ELTON moved to adopt amendment number six for the              
 purpose of discussion.  He wanted further clarification about the             
 intent of the language change, "not reasonably accessible by foot             
 from the state highway system."                                               
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN responded that the language was intended for               
 areas like Pelican and Elfin Cove.  Hearing no objection, it was so           
 ordered.                                                                      
                                                                               
 Number 1920                                                                   
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN requested that witnesses on the teleconference             
 network keep their testimony to the draft committee substitute,               
 version K, and the nine amendments just adopted.                              
                                                                               
 Number 1954                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN referred to the second part of amendment number           
 two:  Page 6, line 19, delete "accompanying and."  He felt this               
 action could be a major point of contention between a transporter             
 and a guide.  He said it could keep people from getting their guide           
 license unless they fished from their boat.                                   
                                                                               
 Number 2070                                                                   
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN responded to Representative Ogan that CSHB 175             
 is a working document and is not expected to move from committee at           
 this meeting.  He expressed his willingness to improve the bill and           
 appreciated language changes to do that.  He reiterated his intent            
 in sponsoring HB 175 is to set up a reporting system on the number            
 of fish that are being caught so the state has a grasp on what the            
 sport industry is doing.                                                      
                                                                               
 Number 2100                                                                   
                                                                               
 ERIC STIRRUP testified from Kodiak stating that he takes exception            
 to having to acquire three different licenses.  He expressed                  
 concern with the lack of enforcement concerning the transporter               
 issues.  He recommended the deletion of line 16, page 4,  (d) A               
 fishing guide shall be physically present while a client is engaged           
 in sport or personal use fishing.  He said this is not the big game           
 guiding industry, it is not a public safety issue bill and asked              
 clarification of the language "physically present."   He also                 
 recommended the deletion of amendment number six saying, nobody is            
 going to step off the state ferry and go fishing in salt water.               
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN asked Mr. Stirrup to look at amendment K.2 on              
 page 6, line 19.  He said the deletion of "accompanying and" might            
 take care of one concern.                                                     
                                                                               
 Number 2293                                                                   
                                                                               
 MR. STIRRUP felt that parts of the draft are unnecessary.  There is           
 a certain amount of self responsibility here.  He encouraged the              
 committee to keep the bill simple.                                            
                                                                               
 Number 2339                                                                   
                                                                               
 BARBARA BINGHAM testified from Sitka asking for more information on           
 the transporter license.  She said she has both an operator and a             
 guide license for recreational purposes.   She provides a drop-off            
 service to park service cabins and hiking, to persons who may or              
 may not fish, and wanted to know if she needs a transporter license           
 as well.                                                                      
                                                                               
 MS. BINGHAM wanted further clarification on page 4, line 16 about             
 the guide being physically present from vessels.  She wanted to               
 know how the language affects "mother ships."  For example, a sport           
 fisherman who leaves a vessel and casually drops a line off the               
 pier.                                                                         
                                                                               
 Number 2405                                                                   
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN said his intention with the transporter license            
 is primarily directed toward people who are transporting and not              
 guiding.  If you have an operators license, you do not necessarily            
 need a transporter license.  He said the committee had not                    
 addressed the "mother ship" concept in HB 175.                                
 MS. BINGHAM quoted "a fishing guide shall be physically present               
 while the client is engaged in sport or personal use fishing" from            
 a vessel.  She said she had worked on a boat where sport fishermen            
 were allowed to fish by themselves from a skiff without the                   
 operator's presence.  She said it sounds like this bill eliminates            
 that or makes it illegal.                                                     
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN said Ms. Bingham was correct that the committee            
 had not addressed the mother ship concept.  He said the committee             
 would discuss it and try to fix it.                                           
                                                                               
 MS. BINGHAM said there are two things she likes about HB 175.  It             
 eliminates the number of speculators, and it separates guides and             
 guiding from the commercial fishing industry.                                 
                                                                               
 Number 2480                                                                   
                                                                               
 THERESA WEISER testified from Sitka referencing page 2, lines 12-14           
 and lines 18 and 19, and said she had concerns with the way the               
 language is drafted.                                                          
                                                                               
 CHANGE TAPE                                                                   
 TAPE 96-5, SIDE B                                                             
 Number 000                                                                    
                                                                               
 MS. WEISER said she would hate to see somebody have their business            
 seriously impacted by the loss of their license for an innocent               
 mistake when they had no intention of breaking the law.                       
                                                                               
 She reference page 3, line 18, the annual minimum coverage of                 
 $300,000, saying that amount is not very much when considering what           
 is taking place in legal circles today.                                       
                                                                               
 She said she questioned the transporter license issue.  It is                 
 redundant and maybe it needs to be more clearly clarified.                    
                                                                               
 Number 073                                                                    
                                                                               
 KEN LARSON testified from Anchorage and clarified that a fishing              
 service who has an operator and a fishing guide license, that                 
 service is also covered for transporting people who are fishing off           
 of the boat and that a transporter license is not required beyond             
 that.                                                                         
                                                                               
 Number 103                                                                    
                                                                               
 DENNIS PETRIE testified from Fairbanks questioning that he, as an             
 owner and operator, would need a fishing service operators license            
 and a fishing guide license.                                                  
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN replied that if you are an operator, you need              
 that license and not the guide license.                                       
 MR. PETRIE figuratively asked if he had a booking service, would he           
 need a fishing service operator license to book other charter                 
 boats?                                                                        
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN responded that was correct, if the operation               
 included guiding fishermen.                                                   
                                                                               
 Number 170                                                                    
                                                                               
 MIKE KRAMER testified from Fairbanks discussing the committee's               
 intent to push this bill through.  He referenced the original                 
 version of HB 175 and presented a revenue strategy for raising                
 revenues.  He said nonresident sports fish guide licenses are about           
 $600.00 and a resident sport fish license costs about $200.00 with            
 basically no restrictions on who is eligible.   He stated that                
 there should be a legal opinion on the disparity between resident             
 and nonresident licenses.  The license fee should be uniform.                 
                                                                               
 MR. KRAMER referenced amendment number three regarding the Coast              
 Guard license.  He said there are areas of the Interior that the              
 Coast Guard has absolutely no jurisdiction on or concern with what            
 license an operator has.                                                      
                                                                               
 MR. KRAMER talked about a $300,000 insurance minimum for operating            
 on wild and scenic rivers and the implications of keeping the small           
 time operators down and keeping new operators out of the business.            
                                                                               
 MR. KRAMER mentioned an earlier comment about distinguishing                  
 between sport fish guides and the commercial fisheries division, he           
 said he does not see how HB 175 is going to do that.  He said he is           
 curious to hear from Chairman Austerman whether HB 175 will                   
 separate us from the Commercial Fisheries Entry Commission.  If the           
 bill passes will we still be required to sign up with the entry               
 commission and get our triangles for $35.00 for river boats or                
 rafts.  He implied that the Department of Fish and Game had as much           
 data as it can assimilate and the biologists are not interested in            
 reporting grayling in a stream.                                               
                                                                               
 MR. KRAMER expressed another concern regarding guides not being               
 able to contract with clients.  He said this has a potential for              
 abuse and cannot see why a guide who meets someone on a riverbank             
 and agrees to take them fishing needs an operators license.                   
                                                                               
 Number 411                                                                    
                                                                               
 KEN AULT testified from Fairbanks questioning why the Department of           
 Fish and Game allowed the registration system to work.  He stated             
 that last year was the first year of this system and he felt that             
 the department should work with this system and it might possibly             
 provide the information that they need.                                       
                                                                               
 MR. AULT referred to the Coast Guard licenses that would be                   
 required for rafts or small rentals and wondered how that figures             
 into the licensing scheme.                                                    
                                                                               
 MR. AULT recommended that the entire bill be scrapped.  He felt the           
 added cost in time and money to the guide and the added cost to the           
 state of Alaska, in increased bureaucracy, will not outweighed by             
 any of the proposed benefits.                                                 
                                                                               
 Number 462                                                                    
                                                                               
 DENNIS KETCHUM testified from Ketchikan and wanted further                    
 clarification that an owner/operator would only have to hold the              
 operators license and referred to page 3, line 25 (d).  He said the           
 intent of that language is confusing.                                         
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN replied that Mr. Ketchum is correct and it is              
 the committee's intent to remove it from the draft committee                  
 substitute.                                                                   
                                                                               
 MR. KETCHUM cited Alaska Administrative Code, 5 ACC 46.55 regarding           
 Southeast Alaska management plans.  Under section (g), the                    
 commissioner may adopt regulations that establish a mandatory law             
 program for operator and charter vessels for outfitters or                    
 proponents of (indisc.).  He said the code should be broadened to             
 cover all species.                                                            
                                                                               
 Number 551                                                                    
                                                                               
 MR. KETCHUM wondered how many operators in Southeast have to be               
 registered.  He said he had a 10 page copy of all the owners and              
 operators in Southeast with all pertinent data.  He inferred that             
 the Department of Fish and Game will have to hire more people to              
 file the information required by this bill.                                   
                                                                               
 MR. KETCHUM cited 5 AAC 46.55 and talked about enforcement issues             
 for possible misdemeanors.                                                    
                                                                               
 Number 642                                                                    
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN requested that Mr. Ketchum forward the statutes            
 he cited from the Alaska King Salmon Management Plan.                         
                                                                               
 Number 670                                                                    
                                                                               
 BARRY BRACKEN testified from Petersburg and thanked the House                 
 Special Committee on Fisheries for sticking with this project.  He            
 said the revised draft is closer to what he envisions as a fair and           
 equitable license program for the sports charter industry.                    
                                                                               
 MR. BRACKEN asked clarification that licensing under the Department           
 of Commerce and Economic Development are dropped and all licenses             
 will be issued by the Department of Fish and Game.  He said he                
 supports that approach, but suggested the committee consider some             
 intent language to make sure that, at least, some of the licensing            
 fees are dedicated to the Division of Sports Fish to cover the cost           
 of monitoring this program and collecting the information that we             
 all feel is important to make this worthwhile.                                
                                                                               
 MR. BRACKEN felt the addition of the transporter license closes a             
 large loop-hole, but it also creates some confusion.  He suggested            
 retaining a "service operator license" separate from the sports               
 fish guide license in order to track the individuals who are just             
 service operators and those who are also sport fish guides.                   
                                                                               
 MR. BRACKEN also expressed some concern with the 1996 registration            
 form and said he saw no reference to the registration form in the             
 revised bill.  He felt the form could be modified to provide more             
 meaningful information.  He said the 1996 form has no designated              
 place for the Alaska Business License or a place to indicate                  
 whether you are a service operator or a guide or both.  It also               
 does not require a Coast Guard license number either.                         
                                                                               
 Number 839                                                                    
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN said it was not the committee's intent to create           
 more paperwork and suggested that the ADF&G methodology of handing            
 out licenses could be refigured as a way of keeping track.                    
                                                                               
 Number 853                                                                    
                                                                               
 BUD HODSON, Chair, Sport Fishing Guide/Charter Task Force referred            
 to amendment K.2, page 6, line 19.  Delete "accompanying and."  He            
 felt the definition of the word "accompanying" should remain in the           
 definition of a fishing guide.  He said the confusion is on page 4,           
 line 16 (d).  He explained that the intent of that line came from             
 task force actions when they dropped the age requirement and said             
 that assistants and deck hands do not need to have a license as               
 long as they are in the direct presence of a fishing guide.                   
                                                                               
 MR. HODSON reemphasized that the words "accompanying and" remain in           
 the definition of a fishing guide.                                            
                                                                               
 MR. HODSON further stressed the importance of the inclusion of                
 "outfitting" and referred to page 7, line 6.  He said by including            
 the terminology of "outfitting" you encompass all those people who            
 provide services such as setting up camp, accommodating people, and           
 running them around in a vessel.                                              
                                                                               
 MR. HODSON referenced earlier discussion on the "road system" and             
 said in the committee substitute the term, "in the field" is also             
 used in the definition of transportation.                                     
                                                                               
 Number 1035                                                                   
                                                                               
 MR. HODSON said some thought needs to be given to whether the                 
 committee wants Kodiak and all of the coast communities serviced by           
 the ferry system now, not be in the field because of the outfitting           
 possibilities.  He suggested that further thought should also be              
 given to what the "road system" language really means and how it              
 ties into the bill.                                                           
                                                                               
 MR. HODSON felt the last thing the committee wanted to do was to              
 pass a statute that licenses fishing guides, but leaves a huge gap            
 where some operators do not have to get a license because they may            
 not be "in the field" by definition.                                          
                                                                               
 Number 1088                                                                   
                                                                               
 MR. HODSON said there is a transporters licensing requirement                 
 currently in statute.  It is for big game hunting guides and it               
 seems logical that that intent apply to this and two different                
 categories of transporters are not created.                                   
                                                                               
 MR. HODSON clarified that sport fishing lodges, or fly-out lodges,            
 are not required by the FAA to have a C.F.R. Part 135 certificate.            
 He said they operate under a "Part 91" and can not get a                      
 transporters license without a C.F.R. 135 certificate, but they               
 could easily become a sport fishing services operator.                        
                                                                               
 MR. HODSON commented about the penalties and violations on line 18,           
 page 2.  He said does not know of commercial fisheries or any other           
 industry where there are two strikes and you are out, especially              
 for two unintentional strikes.  He suggested that the committee               
 look at a fine system or identify that there has to be a major type           
 of violation before you pull these licenses and do not allow them             
 to operate.  He said these violations are harsh and the industry              
 will be extremely vocal about it.                                             
                                                                               
 Number 1200                                                                   
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN referred to Mr. Hodson's testimony about sport             
 fish lodges operating under a C.F.R. Part 91.                                 
                                                                               
 MR. HODSON said Part 91 refers to general aviation.  Part 135 is              
 for commercial operators, such as Wings of Alaska.                            
                                                                               
 Number 1290                                                                   
                                                                               
 KEVIN DELANEY. Director, Division of Sport Fish, Department of Fish           
 and Game addressed Mr. Ketchum's testimony regarding the Alaska               
 King Salmon Management Plans where the commissioner can adopt a               
 requirement for guides to keep a log book.  If the Department were            
 to pursue the reporting system in that manner, it would require the           
 Board of Fisheries to go through a fishery-by-fishery basis or a              
 region-by-region basis.  He said one of the strengths of this plan            
 is that you go statewide all at one time.  He said Mr. Ketchum was            
 correct in that the department does have the power to adopt those             
 regulations.                                                                  
                                                                               
 Number 1380                                                                   
                                                                               
 PATRICK BOOKEY said he wanted to testify in opposition to the                 
 language on page 2, lines 16-18, "upon subsequent convictions."               
 He said the state currently has an uneven distribution of                     
 enforcement personnel and this procedure will apply only to a                 
 limited number of people and put an unfair burden on the areas                
 where there is enforcement.  He recommended that the committee                
 further research this area and either remove it or rewrite it.                
                                                                               
 MR. BOOKEY referenced page 7, line 6 concerning "outfitting."  He             
 said nowhere else in the bill is outfitting mentioned and asked if            
 the intent was to pick up the bare boned lodge operators or whoever           
 buys the equipment for fishermen.                                             
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE ELTON referred to page 2, lines 27 and 28 which                
 makes some of the information that is collected under this bill               
 proprietary.  He referred to the provisions of 16.40.36 (f) and               
 said he can see why some of that information is proprietary, and              
 said he is not sure if it is in the best interests of individual              
 guides or operators to indicate how many fish they caught and where           
 they caught them.  He expressed concern that this exclusion may               
 preclude the department from totalling up the number of fish and              
 the number of guides and then saying this is the number of guides             
 and the number of fish that were caught.                                      
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE ELTON commented that the information the language is           
 keeping proprietary includes just the penalty section of the                  
 definition section.  He said he would check this issue before the             
 next hearing on HB 175.  He said this would also keep license                 
 information proprietary.                                                      
                                                                               
 Number 1667                                                                   
                                                                               
 MR. DELANEY referred to page 5, line 1 (f) and said one concern of            
 the Department of Fish and Game is the obligation to collect                  
 information on the number of salmon, halibut and other fish taken,            
 in all cases, at all times.  He said at certain times, it would not           
 be useful or cost effective to collect this information.                      
                                                                               
 Number 1750                                                                   
                                                                               
 MR. DELANEY recommended the committee change the word "shall" to              
 "may" on page 5, line 1 (f).                                                  
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN responded that the original intent of the bill             
 was for the Department of Fish and Game to collect the information.           
 He asked Mr. Delaney if the words "and other fish" were deleted,              
 would that simplify his concern.                                              
 MR. DELANEY responded that would help.                                        
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN recommended the inclusion of the words "as                 
 needed" after "and other fish."                                               
                                                                               
 MR. DELANEY said that language was grasping the point.  He stated             
 that he would not want to be in a situation where it is neither               
 cost effective or necessary.  He said the department would be happy           
 to work with the committee on that issue.                                     
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE ELTON suggested a possible solution is to change the           
 language to "shall collect salmon and halibut" and "may collect, at           
 the department's discretion, on other species."                               
                                                                               
 Number 1945                                                                   
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN said the committee would take all the testimony            
 and recommendations into consideration.  He announced that all                
 Legislative Information offices would receive a copy of the new               
 committee substitute prior to the next hearing on CSHB 175.                   
                                                                               
 ADJOURNMENT                                                                   
                                                                               
 There being no further business to come before the House Special              
 Committee on Fisheries, Chairman Austerman adjourned the meeting at           
 6:33 p.m.                                                                     
                                                                               

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