Legislature(1995 - 1996)
03/22/1995 03:25 PM L&C
* first hearing in first committee of referral
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
HB 224 - STATE PLUMBING CODE Number 581 CHAIRMAN KOTT said they would now hear from the Prime Sponsor of HB 224. REPRESENTATIVE VIC KOHRING, PRIME SPONSOR OF HB 224, pointed out there was a zero fiscal note accompanying the bill. The basic intent of the bill was to give the Department of Law the authority to adopt and amend the Uniform Plumbing Code (UPC). He said it does not make any changes to the existing code or adopt a new version of code. It simply changes the process by which the code is adopted. HB 224 has been supported by various labor unions and plumbing contractors, as well as engineering firms. The Department of Labor would administer the code in a more timely manner. He said this was a safety issue as far as setting minimum safety standards of plumbing installations. Because the UPC code is so technical, it would make more sense for the Department of Labor to be the administrator. He concluded by saying the Plumbing Code was the last code that still required legislative approval. He respectfully requested the committee's consideration of the bill. CHAIRMAN KOTT asked if there were any questions for the prime sponsor. Number 619 ROBERT MINCH, ALASKA DESIGN SPECIALTY COUNCIL, testified they were in favor of the bill. He said it would go a long way in cleaning up the process of adopting regulations covering the construction and design industries. He encouraged them to pass this from committee, and he added he would answer any questions. CHAIRMAN KOTT asked if there were questions. He then called Dwight Perkins to the table. Number 626 DWIGHT PERKINS, SPECIAL ASSISTANT, DEPARTMENT OF LABOR, testified the department supports HB 224 with a technical change. On page 2, line 3 through line 9, beginning with, "unless changed by the department", under C & D of the section, he said they found lines 3 through 9 redundant. This is addressed in the 1991 Plumbing Code which the state is currently using. This particular language came about when they were under the previous code which did not address the Federal Clean Water Standard Act regarding lead in water. This is federally mandated; therefore, this language has to apply. He said it is addressed in two separate sections of the 1991 Plumbing Code. He reiterated that the department supports the bill. Number 641 REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG asked Mr. Perkins to briefly describe the process for the adoption of the plumbing code in the state. Number 648 MR. PERKINS responded that currently the (indiscernible). TAPE 95-22, SIDE B Number 000 MR. PERKINS continued, saying the plumbing code is adopted by statute. The Department of Labor does not have the authority, by regulation, to adopt new codes as they become effective. The most recent code became effective on June 12, 1991. HB 224 would allow the department to hold public hearings for contractors and design professionals to have the opportunity to either add to, or delete from the plumbing code. Number 034 REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG asked if any mechanical engineers were on staff at the Department of Labor. Number 038 MR. PERKINS answered that two of the inspectors are plumbers, and the chief engineer is an electrician. Number 050 REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG asked if this was coincidental or required by statute. MR. PERKINS responded he wasn't familiar with the job descriptions. Number 055 REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG asked who wrote the regulations. MR. PERKINS stated the mechanical section of the Department of Labor would write those regulation. REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG asked if mechanical engineers were part of that. MR. PERKINS responded he was not sure if they were licensed to do mechanical engineering within the state. Number 065 REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG asked if they hold public hearings in order to adopt local amendments to the codes. Number 070 MR. PERKINS said that was correct. REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG asked if, historically, this was what the legislature has done. MR. PERKINS replied that, historically, amendments had been proposed in regards to other plumbing codes. Those amendments never were adopted, and the codes were adopted as originally written. He said, "Alaska is a different place, and in some instances things don't work the way they should, but the department and the users of the code would have the opportunity to make amendments, where needed, to alleviate problems." REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG asked if the legislature has ever made amendments to the code. MR. PERKINS said in a past life, he had been a lobbyist who was involved with trying to make amendments to the code. He said because of the lack of understanding of the technical portion of the code, the legislature did not feel they were enough of an informed body to take what he said as gospel. Number 098 CHAIRMAN KOTT asked Mr. Perkins to explain the difference between a single and double wall heat exchanger. Number 105 MR. PERKINS replied that primarily in areas where oil fired domestic boilers are used, there is a heat exchanger submersed inside the boiler that protects potable water. He explained that propylene glycol is added to the system. If the heat exchanger should rust out, the water in which it is immersed would leak into the potable water system. He said with a double wall exchanger you would have that extra protection. Number 139 CHAIRMAN KOTT asked what the department's position would be on retaining the single wall heat exchanger. Number 141 MR. PERKINS stated the department recognizes the need for looking into this section of the code to amend it and allow single wall exchangers in certain areas. He said, "until they have the authority to make regulatory changes, they are at a loss to do so, and the inspectors are following what they can by the code, and the code says one thing, and until they are given the regulatory to make those changes their hands are tied." REPRESENTATIVE KUBINA interpreted that as saying the department doesn't want to put exceptions into the law. They want the ability to write the regulations themselves. Number 164 MR. PERKINS stated they would fine tune the codes to Alaska's needs, and in this instance, with heat exchangers, they do see a need for change. Number 170 REPRESENTATIVE KUBINA asked if the department didn't want to write those changes into law. MR. PERKINS responded no. They feel the contractors and plumbers should sit down with the Department of Labor and hammer out their differences so the results would be in the best interest of the state. REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG said the state presently (indisc.) electrical codes and national codes that had been adopted. He asked if this was a similar regulatory plan on a three year cycle, or do they only make local amendments if there is public input. Number 184 MR. PERKINS explained that the public is notified through newspapers and public advertisements that the department will be adopting the next version of the code, along with any suggested changes. He said the public process is followed so any changes to the code will be heard at locations throughout the state. Number 198 REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG asked if the drafting attorneys made the ultimate decision. He commented that even though there is public input, it doesn't always mean those interests are followed. Number 202 MR. PERKINS said with the exception of the Elevator Code, this is the last construction code yet to be adopted by regulation. He pointed out the Electrical Code was adopted last year, and the department now has the authority to adopt regulations for that code. The department does not view this legislation as adversarial to the users of the code, but as a streamlining process. The public would have the opportunity to be involved in adopting codes and making amendments. CHAIRMAN KOTT asked Representative Rokeberg to hold his questions as they had many more people to testify. He asked Representative Jeannette James to join them at the table. Number 225 REPRESENTATIVE JEANNETTE JAMES voiced her concerns about HB 224. She stated that the Department of Labor should not be given "carte blanche" authority to write regulations. She pointed out that when the department had been given specific points to work with in the past, the regulations still haven't always come out as they should. In that regard, she disputes the bill. However, if the bill is to move forward, it should be amended. She recognized that the Department of Labor said they would address the concerns some people have with single wall heat exchangers. However, from past experience, the people in her district are not satisfied this will, in fact, happen. The legislature is lazy to have spun off the opportunity to make law by giving it to the Administration. When it comes to codes directly affecting Alaska, there is a policy decision. When it comes to making policy, the policies ought to be made by elected officials of the legislature. If the legislature gives the authority to the Department of Labor, it would be totally derelict in its duty. She said the department should be implementing the statutes as the legislature imposes them. REPRESENTATIVE JAMES continued that with single wall heat exchangers, there generally isn't any potable water in the system. Propylene glycol is a nontoxic fluid and not a problem. She added they have also been hearing from the people that "when you write regulations and make us dance this other dance that we haven't been dancing, please tell us and figure out how much it will cost to dance the other dance." She asked if the cost and benefit would be balanced. As the current bill is written, coupled with existing law, home owners wouldn't have the means to have single wall heat exchangers. REPRESENTATIVE JAMES offered an amendment to HB 224 to address the concerns of people being affected physically and financially by the legislation. "This amendment would allow that in single wall construction, if the heat transfer medium is water and either propylene glycol or other essential nontoxic fluids, having a toxicity rating of Class One, or class of one as listed in Clinical Toxicology of Commercial Products, Fifth Edition, and the pressure of the heat transfer medium is limited to a maximum of 30 pounds per square inch by an approved safety relief valve. And the heat exchanger is permanently and (indisc.) labeled with instructions concerning Sections 1 and 2 of this section." She said the rest of the three-page amendment is legal drafting that "permits this to happen and continue happening." Number 313 CHAIRMAN KOTT opened testimony on the teleconference line. Number 318 MARK BLACKWELL, PLUMBING CONTRACTOR, testified via teleconference on HB 224. He read the following statement: "I would like to address the current fact-finding committee on the proposed inclusion of HB 224, and the impact of not including the 10.03 K amendment the city of Fairbanks adopted January 1, 1993. I specifically would like to address the use of single wall heat exchangers, common component of domestic water systems in use for 80 years. The multiple thousands of systems are in daily use around Fairbanks and many millions of these systems are used worldwide on a daily basis. The single wall domestic heat exchanger coil remains the industry standard in terms of application and affordability to the end user, namely you and I, in our residences, apartment buildings, even in commercial buildings. I know of no verifiable deaths or illness directly attributable to its use in Fairbanks due to a compromised or failed coil. The cost benefit equation, far outweighs any life safety issues that may remotely arise with its continued use. I, therefore, urge the committee to consider the 10.03 K amendment which carries the prudent thinking of not only people in Fairbanks, but also manufacturers, engineers and contractors worldwide." Number 355 DAN PORTWINE, PORTWINE PLUMBING & HEATING, testified from Fairbanks via teleconference on HB 244. He urged the committee not to pass HB 224 without the 10.03 K amendment. The single wall coil should be fully acceptable for heating domestic hot water under most circumstances. The vast majority of boilers in the Fairbanks area have single wall coils in use. He has been in the plumbing business in Fairbanks for 21 years. In that time, he has experienced three leaking coils. All three coils were new, but had manufacturers defects which were discovered upon installation. He has never experienced any health hazards caused by the single wall coil. (Indisc.) under normal circumstances the domestic side of the coil, which operates at a higher pressure than the boiler enclosed side, will flow into the boiler, over pressure the boiler and turn the pressure release valve on the boiler (indisc.--mumbling). He said requiring nontoxic glycol in water as the heating fluid should adequately address the safety issue. He stated requiring double wall coils would place unreasonable hardships on home and property owners. Double wall coils are available for normal boilers. Tank-type water heaters with double wall boilers are very expensive and inefficient. Operating electric or gas hot water heaters in Fairbanks is very expensive. The oil fired water heaters are expensive to purchase and install. His basic concern is a product that has been in use for 80 to 100 years does not warrant the expense and hardships placed on the citizens of this state. The Department of Labor has been aware of this problem. Number 382 MICHAEL HIRT, OWNER, COMFORT MECHANICAL testified via teleconference that on February 24, 1995, he received a long distance phone call from the acting Chief Mechanical Inspector, Gerard Mankel, for the state. Mr. Mankel referred to a single wall coil that Mr. Hirt had installed at the Alaska Veterinary Clinic, 410 Trainer Gate Rd., Fairbanks. Mr. Mankel asked if he intended to change the system in order to comply with the 1991 Uniform Plumbing Code Section 1003 K. He informed Mr. Mankel that at the time the job was bid and designed, the 1979 UPC was enforced with the state. The 1988 UPC was enforced by the city, and did not include language referring to single wall coils. He told Mr. Mankel the project was built within the city of Fairbanks and was subject to the administration authority of the City Building Department. The city of Fairbanks, during construction of this project, adopted the 1991 UPC at approximately the same time the state did. However, the city of Fairbanks chose to amend and clarify the code language to the city ordinance so it would be consistent with the UPC's intent. He stated that he, in good faith, paid for a permit with the city and expected the city to be the administrative authority to follow. He told Mr. Mankel he had no intention of changing anything at the present time. They also spoke of other interpretations of the ASME Code. Recent misinterpretation by state officials has caused thousands of dollars of expense to interior owners, only to find the officials had misinterpreted its intent. He then asked if Mr. Mankel agreed with the city ordinance in allowing single wall coils in cases where potable water was on both sides of the coil. He said Mr. Mankel's response was that he only enforces the state statutes, he doesn't try to interpret them. MR. HIRT stated he would like to see HB 224 amended by having the heat exchanger amendment and also that the administrative authority be defined as being the most local authority. For example, a city would be more local than a borough. Depending on building demand, they would have a part or full-time official on the payroll to administer the UPC, within its defined boundaries. This is essential for proper application of the code. The Department of Labor would interpret things as they see fit. Number 420 LEONARD KIMBALL, BUILDING OFFICIAL FOR THE CITY OF KODIAK AND THE KODIAK ISLAND BOROUGH, testified via teleconference that single wall coil heat exchangers had been in use for many years in Kodiak without any serious cost connection problems. The 1991 edition of the UPC out ruled these systems in spite of the fact they had done very well with oil fired burners. Much of the United States still allows for this system. Natural gas is not available in Kodiak, and they feel the UPC is unfairly impacting their community. In 1991, the Kodiak Code Review Committee, made up of contractors and citizens, recommended an exception to the code allowing the continued use of single wall heat exchangers. He said the City Council and Kodiak Island Borough Assembly, after holding public hearings, unanimously approved the exception. He said that by refusing to accept tried and tested material, still approved in many parts of the country, and tolerating requirements that are excessive, permits the code to provide basic minimal provision necessary for (indisc.), the UPC code is straying from its stated purpose to provide minimum requirements and standards for the protection of public health, safety, and welfare. He closed by asking the committee to support the amendment allowing the continued use of single wall heat exchangers as proposed by the city of Fairbanks, the city of Kodiak, and the Kodiak Island Borough. Number 447 JOHN BUTLER, JOHN'S HEATING SERVICE IN KODIAK, testified via teleconference that if HB 224 is initiated, he would like to see the amendment to the single wall coil. In the last 20 years they haven't had any problems with people being poisoned from backflow or anything resulting from failure of the coil. These added costs would be passed on to the consumer. The officials in Kodiak are capable of making the right decision for these codes. Number 460 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER asked if double wall exchangers would take more energy to produce the same amount of heat for the water. MR. BUTLER stated it would take 30 to 40 percent more energy to produce the same amount of hot water with the double walled coil, as opposed to the single wall coil. Number 468 TOM STREIFEL, STREIFEL PLUMBING & HEATING testified via teleconference that it is not often that so many plumbers get together and agree they don't want to make money. He stated they could charge more for the double wall coils but they just don't work. They are building systems so people can afford them. This would cut efficiency. The "feds" are already mandating a limit to the number of BTUs that can be put into a house. When they have to figure heat loss, and they go over the limit by 10 percent, if they must use double wall coils, they won't get the numbers to work. Number 481 CHAIRMAN KOTT asked what the standard life span of a single wall coil was. Number 489 MR. BUTLER answered he had been doing heating work for the past 20 years and there are a lot of single wall coils in existence that preexist the 1964 tidal wave. Number 490 LEE HOLMES, LICENSED MECHANICAL ENGINEER, RSA ENGINEERING, past president of Alaska Special Design Council, and Charter member of Alaska Chapter of the International Association of Plumbing & Mechanical Officials, testified via teleconference in support of HB 224. He stated it had taken 12 years to upgrade the Plumbing Code this last time. He believes the professionals who deal with codes on a daily basis should have the authority to come up with the amendments and adopt the code in a timely manner. He has sat on the municipality of Anchorage Code Review Committee since 1988, working to pass amendments needed to modify the code to meet local requirements unique to Anchorage. There has been misleading information and misunderstandings. Amtrol makes both single and double wall heat exchangers that are hooked up to boilers as a separate item. The double wall heat exchanger is $8.00 cheaper. In 1991, when the code went into effect, it caught many manufacturers off guard. Over the past three years, they have caught up and actually exceeded the number of double wall exchangers originally anticipated. In talking with a manufacturer's representative recently, 90 percent of the heat exchangers he sells, dealing with potable water, are double wall exchangers. The 10 percent of single wall exchangers that are sold are for steam and potable water on both side systems. He expounded on the flagging of boilers and the use of propylene glycol. He stated that propylene glycol is toxic, the same as alcohol is toxic. It is not as toxic as ethylene glycol. There are various grades of propylene glycol. The type listed by Representative James is not what you would purchase if you went to (indisc.) and asked them for premixed propylene glycol. He stated propylene glycol is corrosive to piping. Therefore, inhibitors are added to prevent corrosion. These inhibitors are not classified as nontoxic. He said in bush communities, when a boiler goes down and it is refilled, you are just as likely to get Prestone installed into the system. In remote areas where home owners have modified systems or extremely corrosive water, unlike Fairbanks or Kodiak, (indisc.). Another misunderstanding was that the exchangers are less efficient, using 30 to 40 percent more energy. The Amtrol double wall heat exchanger water heater that works as a zone off of the boiler, takes no more energy to create the same amount of hot water than a single wall unit. He said double wall side arm heaters, which fit right into the boilers, do not create as much hot water as single wall heaters, but they do not draw any more energy to heat that water. He concluded if an amendment is needed, it should be adopted by the Department of Labor when they go through the amendment process. He does not feel there is uniform consensus throughout the industry. He knew of no engineer who would support single wall heat exchangers over double wall exchangers due to the ethics and personal liability involved. He feels that they should not be tied into technology based 15 to 20 years ago when the industry itself is changing to support the double wall heat exchangers. Number 560 REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG asked if the Anchorage Code Review was like the Board Examiner of Appeals for the municipality of Anchorage. MR. HOLMES responded when new codes come out, they go to the professional and construction communities and ask individuals to sit on the committee to go through the code and make recommendations for amendments. He said there are separate committees for Fire, Mechanical, Structural, Plumbing and the Uniform Building Codes. Number 568 REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG asked if, after the recommendations those go to the assembly, or to the Board of Examiner Review. MR. HOLMES answered they go out for public comment; then eventually, they go to the assembly to be adopted by resolution. REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG asked if you could have additional public hearings after issuing a first draft. MR. HOLMES stated this was correct. REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG continued it then goes to the assembly for approval, at which time a citizen can make a complaint or ask for further amendments. MR. HOLMES said this was correct. CHAIRMAN KOTT invited Representative Gene Therriault to sit at the table. LEE DESPAIN, DESPAIN PLUMBING & HEATING, testified via teleconference, that he had been in the plumbing business for 40 years. He stated Mr. Holmes commented on the double wall heat exchanger costing $8.00 less than the single exchanger. However, he forgot to say the installation alone would cost between $1000 to $1500 extra, because you're not able to use the coil that comes in most boilers they install in Fairbanks. Mr. Holmes also commented he knew of no engineers who would opt to install the single wall exchangers over the double wall exchangers. Mr. Despain said it was his understanding the Code Review Commission has mechanical engineers on it and that the commission unanimously supported the use of single wall coils, as long as they are installed with the provision that the city of Fairbanks has for those applications. MR. DESPAIN continued by reading a prepared statement: "It appears to me that the Department of Labor is making a run for power. You legislators can ill afford to delegate your responsibility for maintenance of the current applicable codes to the Department of Labor. These codes affect every resident in this state with no exceptions either directly or indirectly. If you feel I've overstated my position, please feel free -- how much of the population of Alaska, regardless of age, creed, color or national origin or religion, does not use water. There are several other codes in this legislation that also apply to Alaskans, in addition to the Plumbing Code. This legislation will establish the Department of Labor as the Internal Revenue Service of plumbing and other codes, Alaska-style. If an appeal is necessary after this piece of legislation, a person can go see the next higher Department of Labor person. It sounds like DOL justice to me, or is that IRS justice? I can hardly wait to see how much money the Department of Labor can leverage from the legislature if this ill-conceived piece of legislation is approved. Please, legislators, keep these codes within your jurisdiction and abolish this ill-conceived piece of legislation, HB 224." MR. DESPAIN stated there are presently exemptions to the code existing under state statute concerning code compliance. He asked if this legislation would still allow for those exemptions, which concern municipalities and some small rural communities. Number 618 MR. PERKINS responded they amend the administrative sections of the codes. He didn't feel this would be a problem. REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG pointed out he was asking if there is an exemption from the codes when you have a code in a municipality? MR. DESPAIN asked if that exemption disappears with this piece of legislation. MR. PERKINS apologized for misunderstanding the questions, and he added, "When exemptions are applied for and the department feels they are in the best interest, then they are granted." MR. PERKINS clarified there are existing exceptions to the legislation allowing codes to be processed in Juneau at this time. Those exemptions are for municipalities and certain rural communities. His question whether these exemptions still apply "when DOL is made God instead of the state legislature?" Will they still be in effect? MR. PERKINS responded he didn't know why they wouldn't be. MR. DESPAIN reiterated there seemed to be poor information being disseminated with regard to the double wall coil. His concern is that the double wall coil issue is insignificant in comparison with establishing the Department of Labor as the group (indisc.--end of tape) TAPE 95-23, SIDE A, Number 000 MR. DESPAIN continued that they should continue to let the legislature do what they have been doing for years. Number 004 REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG asked if they were to enact this legislation, whether the new Plumbing Code, as administered by the Department of Labor, would be superior to the municipal codes in Anchorage, Fairbanks and elsewhere. MR. PERKINS stated at this time, the state's UPC is a minimum standard. It says the municipalities may make the codes more stringent, but not less stringent. REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG asked if this was for all codes. MR. PERKINS stated he was only referring to the Plumbing Code. REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG asked if the state had adopted the Uniform Building Code. MR. PERKINS answered that to his knowledge, yes. REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG queried whether they couldn't be less stringent than the UPC. MR. PERKINS said he could only refer to the Plumbing Code right now. The municipalities can be more stringent than the 1991 code, but not less stringent. Number 059 STEVE SHUTTLEWORTH, BUILDING OFFICIAL, CITY OF FAIRBANKS, testified via teleconference. He commented they had only received notice of the teleconference the day prior, and would have appreciated more notice. He said the city has several concerns regarding HB 224. The city of Fairbanks recognizes that HB 224 was initiated by the Alaska Professional Design Council, not the Department of Labor. The city of Fairbanks also recognizes that the purpose of the bill is to adopt the state plumbing code by regulation. They do not feel they will receive a "fair shake" from the Department of Labor regarding the actual regulatory process. The city of Fairbanks has received little cooperation from the DOL. He pointed out that on page 2, line 11, the bill acknowledges only one code. He said there are several nationally recognized plumbing codes that should be considered. This code is the only code that prohibits single wall coils. He said that on page 3, lines 17 and 18, the language is inappropriate. He quoted, "best interest of the state," and then asked, what about the people, cities, and accountability? The current language suggests an agenda which recommends revision or deletion of lines 17 and 18, as noted. He referred the committee to page 17 in the handbook of the State Constitution. He asked why HB 224 was only referred to one committee, bypassing State Affairs. He said the city of Fairbanks would consider supporting HB 224, provided the Fairbanks and Kodak amendment is included. He asked the committee not to underestimate the city of Fairbanks' commitment to the passage of this amendment. This issue affects his office every day. The collective wisdom regarding plumbing and single wall coils has been, or is, vested with the Department of Labor; nor is it vested in communities with natural gas. There has been a concern that if they accept this amendment, what about all the others? Isn't this the governmental process? In summary, he stated the single wall coil issue will not go away. In Fairbanks, they have a genuine problem with the currently overly restrictive double wall heat exchanger state requirement. If the proposed Fairbanks and Kodiak amendment is not adopted, they will work diligently for the defeat of HB 224. CHAIRMAN KOTT thanked him for his testimony and assured him that the state was under new management. The committee does not arbitrarily teleconference every Labor & Commerce Committee meeting. The request came late from either the bill sponsor or a member of the public. In response to being the only committee of referral, he assured Mr. Shuttleworth that the Labor & Commerce Committee would thoroughly evaluate HB 224. He asked Mr. Shuttleworth for his phone number. MR. SHUTTLEWORTH stated that it was 459-6725. LARRY LONG, PLUMBING INSPECTOR FOR THE CITY OF FAIRBANKS, testified via teleconference. He commented that Mr. Shuttleworth was his supervisor. He said: "This limiting, even the consideration of any other plumbing code except the UPC, we all know where that comes from." He said they should consider the best code for the state of Alaska, not one that is a private vested interest. He commented on what Mr. Despain had said in regards to changing the transfer of power by the legislature. It creates another IRS, EPA, and a totally out of control administration. He said he could not believe anyone could think the single wall/double wall coil is a safety hazard. He was in much more danger driving to the teleconference than he ever would be drinking water from a single wall boiler. He reiterated that the Department of Labor is not a pleasant subject in Fairbanks. He does not trust anything anyone says from the department. Number 226 BILL SAGER, CHANDLER PLUMBING & HEATING, testified via teleconference. He said the ability of any department to be able to change or adopt codes administratively is not in the best interest of the state. He concurred with previous speakers regarding the double wall coil requirements as being unnecessary. He urged that the requirement of the double wall coil be deleted from whichever code is adopted. CHAIRMAN KOTT asked if there was anyone else wishing to testify. Hearing none, he closed public testimony and asked Representative Therriault to join them. REPRESENTATIVE GENE THERRIAULT stated his staff had been in contact with a number of people in Fairbanks and that a few people were upset with the sponsor of the bill. He said Representative Kohring had no ulterior motive in introducing the bill; that he was a fellow member on the House Finance Committee, and they could work these problems out. Number 250 CHAIRMAN KOTT stated they had heard much testimony in the past hours, along with feeling much heat. He said they have learned a lot and understand the issues related to HB 224. He said that these issues are substantial and need to be addressed in a subcommittee. He appointed Representative Rokeberg as chair, along with Representative Elton and himself. ADJOURNMENT There being no further business to come before the House Labor & Commerce Committee, Chairman Kott adjourned the meeting at 5:20 p.m.