JOINT SENATE AND HOUSE TRANSPORTATION COMMITTEE Anchorage, AK November 4, 1993 1:30 p.m. SENATE MEMBERS PRESENT Senator Bert Sharp, Chairman Senator Randy Phillips, Vice Chairman Senator Georgianna Lincoln Senator Tim Kelly SENATE MEMBERS ABSENT Senator Jay Kerttula HOUSE MEMBERS PRESENT Representative Richard Foster, Chairman Representative Gary Davis, Vice Chairman Representative Bill Hudson Representative Curt Menard Representative Jerry Mackie Representative Eldon Mulder Representative Al Vezey HOUSE MEMBERS ABSENT All members present ALSO PRESENT Senator Suzanne Little Senator Steve Rieger Representative Gail Phillips Representative Ron Larson COMMITTEE CALENDAR DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION & PUBLIC FACILITIES STATEWIDE PRIORITIZATION PLAN TAPE 93-23, SIDE A Number 001 SENATOR BERT SHARP, Chairman of the Senate Transportation Committee, called the meeting to order at 1:43 p.m. He noted that the Juneau, Fairbanks, Soldotna and Nome Legislative Teleconference Sites were on-line, and that Representatives Hudson and Davis would be participating in the meeting via the teleconference network. Also, Representative Larson was on-line listening to the meeting. Chairman Sharp said the purpose of the meeting was an overview by the Department of Transportation and Public Facilities of the process that has been ongoing during the summer and fall months. He then introduced Commissioner Campbell and asked him to proceed with his presentation. Number 041 BRUCE CAMPBELL, Commissioner, Department of Transportation & Public Facilities, in his opening comments introduced his three regional directors: Steve Sisk, Northern District; Jon Scribner, Southeastern District; and John Horn, Central District. He also introduced Mike McKinnon, Chief of Planning in Headquarters and John Tolley, Chief of Planning in the Central District, who were present to respond to questions. Commissioner Campbell first spoke to the 1991 Federal Highway Act (ISTEA), which he said gives the states, Alaska included, some flexibility and allows them to do more things with their money, but at a price. There are a lot more things that they have do in order to comply with the federal law. First of all, in order to comply with the federal legislation, the department has to have a program that has a goal, and they then have to prioritize their projects. Next, there has to be public input on the projects. He said the federal requirements are stringent enough now so that, apparently, what is desired in Washington is that the department listens to everybody who wants a say, even to the extent that they disregard the elected peoples' wishes. As a result of the federal requirements, the department started holding public hearings in July with the boroughs, the municipalities, the villages, etc, all over the state. Commissioner Campbell said he directed his people that the department was going to take most of their direction, to the extent possible, from the elected representatives. The department's number one direction has been to listen to the people who are elected to represent the citizens of the state. As a result of these public hearings, the department has defined what the people in each of these regions feel their wants and needs are. Projects have been listed as number one priorities, number two priorities, number three priorities and number four priorities. The projects for any particular area are included in the order, with rare exception, as they were submitted by the boroughs, etc. The one or two exceptions will be corrected when the list is republished. The department still has one more public hearing, and once that is completed, they will go back through the list and make any corrections, additions or adjustments that they feel are merited. The department will then figure out how many of what year's projects can be built with the funds available. Commissioner Campbell noted that at this point in time, they really don't know what any one project is going to cost because they still have to go through their wet lands procedures, Corps of Engineers procedure, obtain permits and do all these things that can have a very major effect on a project's cost. The same is true with the timing of the projects. All of these things are more difficult and more time consuming, in many instances, than the design and the construction of the project. Commissioner Campbell directed attention to the department's priority list, which he said they will break down from the knowledge they have now and try to forecast which projects have the least restrictions, require the fewest approvals, and in that respect, are most apt to go first. They will then prioritize a second time within that list, not based on need, but based on how fast they think they can get the project ready to go to construction. Within the next month or six weeks, they will end up with a construction program for the summer of 1994. Commissioner Campbell said that at this point in time, he is quite happy with the program, and he thinks it is a step in the right direction. The priority list will serve, essentially, as a long- range program. Based on some very preliminary guesses, there are probably enough projects on the list to last somewhere between eight and ten years with the present level of funding they have. Number 170 CHAIRMAN SHARP opened the meeting to questions from members of the joint committee. SENATOR KELLY asked if the construction of a new ferry was contained in the list of projects. COMMISSIONER CAMPBELL acknowledged that it was, and he said they are trying to spread the cost of a new ferry to as many fiscal years as they can. The Federal Highway Administration has indicated that they would allow the state to spread it over a three-year period. Number 180 REPRESENTATIVE DAVIS asked what the federal regulations were relating to the adding of alternates to the list of projects. COMMISSIONER CAMPBELL answered that if it is a minor access way or approach, perhaps, it could be done without going out to bid, but he didn't think anything of any substance would be in compliance with the state purchasing regulations. Number 200 SENATOR RANDY PHILLIPS asked for an update on the Klondike Highway, the Alaska Highway and the Taylor Highway. COMMISSIONER CAMPBELL answered that they have not yet signed an agreement with the Canadian government on the Klondike Highway, but as soon as one minor insurance item is resolved, the agreement should go forward. STEVE SISK said they have several projects scheduled for the Alaska Highway, one that starts right at the border, which should be ready to start in the coming year, and another one at the slide at Mile 1268. From Tok toward Glennallen, there is a section under construction right now, which should be completed in 1995, and there is another section which is currently under design. The highway from Glennallen to Gakona Junction is also in design for rehabilitation because of foundation failures. On the Glenn Highway, from Glennallen west, there is section of highway under construction which should be completed next year, as well another section that the design is complete on. COMMISSIONER CAMPBELL said a joint resolution has been signed with the Yukon government to try to speed up the loop from Whitehorse to Dawson to Boundary back down to the Alaska Highway at Tetlin Junction in time for the celebration of the Centennial of the gold rush. Number 270 REPRESENTATIVE GAIL PHILLIPS asked if when the department was holding hearings in different communities, did the public understand that the federal funding was broken down into the different categories and that, specifically, they have to use some for bike paths, pedestrian pathways, etc. COMMISSIONER CAMPBELL answered that they explained that in every instance that they could, but it is one of those things that people don't want to hear and they tend not to listen to it. He pointed out that the department has just let the first section of the Seward Highway, and they were successful in getting a big hunk of their safety money used on that project because they are relocating to avoid avalanche chutes. He said it is a case where they are actually building a new road and satisfying a lot of their safety requirements, however, the enhancement area is tough. Number 301 REPRESENTATIVE FOSTER commented that he is pleased with DOT's commitment to some of the small projects in the villages. However, he has some RS 2477 projects in his district, and he asked if there is a time frame on these test cases. COMMISSIONER CAMPBELL answered that the Department of Natural Resources has put together an excellent staff in Fairbanks that has selected 10 cases and DOT has started the procedure to notify the federal government that the state is claiming the right-of-way on these 10 areas. He said it remains to be seen what the federal government does or doesn't do, but these are test cases, and as they go, the rest of them will go. Number 344 SENATOR SHARP asked when it would it be most effective for people like himself and other local officials to suggest specific projects that may not be on the list, or they have a problem with the prioritization. COMMISSIONER CAMPBELL responded that they are going to try to have the list finalized in the next four to six weeks, but a program such as this has got to have flexibility in it because priorities are going to change, needs are going to change. He said the last public hearing would be held the following week, and he suggested getting any input in within a couple of days after that hearing. Number 400 SENATOR LINCOLN noted that several Bush communities felt that they were left out of the process totally, and she asked for the Commissioner's comments on what opportunity the people had to participate in the hearings held by the department. She also expressed her disappointment that there are not more projects on the list relating to roads for water and sewer projects in the rural areas. MIKE MCKINNON related that while they didn't get to a lot of individual villages for public meetings, they did do a mail-out of the package. They have also been in phone contact with individual community leaders, working with AFN, and they will soon be participating in the Tribal Providers Conference in December. COMMISSIONER CAMPBELL added that the department's budget doesn't allow them to conduct a public hearing in every community in the state, and the department has tried to have regional public hearings where they got as close to as many people as they could. Responding to Senator Lincoln's question concerning sewer and water roads, COMMISSIONER CAMPBELL said they have been working with DEC, the Public Health Service and the Bureau of Indian Affairs, and they included every one of those projects that they are ready to go on. Number 506 SENATOR LINCOLN asked if the department anticipates that they can take care of all of the projects on the list with the money that is available. COMMISSIONER CAMPBELL answered that all of the projects they have on the list right now will take somewhere around ten years of funding at the present level. It will take approximately three to four years to get through the priority one projects. He added that they only have one year of assured funds, which is the $204 million they have for 1994, but they don't know what obligational ceiling the federal government will put on next year. Number 610 REPRESENTATIVE MULDER said DeBarr Road has been become a major thoroughfare in Anchorage and has become a real problem, and he stated his concern that it is listed as a priority two project and it could be another three to four years before it rates significant repair. TAPE 93-23, SIDE B Number 001 COMMISSIONER CAMPBELL responded that the department is going to do the best that they can. For instance, with the Copper River Highway, which is a $120 million project, if the lawsuit goes on, that project may stay in priority number one, but it may not require any funding for four or five years. So the cash that develops out of that can be quite different than the priority listing. He said they are dealing with so many changeable unknowns that about the only thing they are sure of is what their priorities are. Commissioner Campbell briefly discussed the Copper River Highway project, saying they have not yet negotiated a settlement and he does not know what the timing might be, and that they are not doing anything on the road right now. Number 060 JOHN HORN discussed the Whittier project, which he said is on schedule. DOT is going through the public hearing process, they are working on an environmental impact statement, which should be done towards end of 1994, and from that point, they will proceed into a design phase. Number 075 REPRESENTATIVE MACKIE asked the Commissioner why the borough ISTEA plan was abandoned. COMMISSIONER CAMPBELL replied that when he first started looking at the program, he realized there were several short-comings. Even though it was a borough transportation plan, it was part of ISTEA and they have to abide by all of the federal rules and regulations or they don't get the money. The problem with the federal highway monies is that it is on a reimbursable basis, and if the federal government says they haven't followed all the rules and regulations, they won't give the state the money. Then the department is in the position of having to go back to the Legislature for a supplemental. He said in looking over the boroughs that were to be a part of that plan, there were only two or three of the boroughs that had the staff, the knowledge and the expertise to go ahead with that program and not get them into trouble. Also, there were many of the boroughs, especially the unorganized boroughs, that under the borough transportation plan were required to take over the maintenance of the project after it was built who didn't have the tax base to come up with the dollars necessary to do the maintenance. Number 195 REPRESENTATIVE MACKIE asked for the Commissioner's comments on a dedicated fund that would be dedicated strictly towards the maintenance and operations of the state's highways in the future. COMMISSIONER CAMPBELL said he doesn't have any strong feelings on that one way or the other. However, one of the things he has looked at is doubling the gasoline tax, which would produce approximately $25 million in additional revenue, although that is a long way from funding the maintenance of the highways. He added that he would have no objection to doubling the gasoline tax because most of the states now are over 20 cents on the gasoline tax while Alaska is at 8 cents. Number 213 SENATOR LITTLE said people on the Kenai Peninsula work very hard at getting their roads on a priority list and then there is a new list and their road is not on it, so they have to start the process all over again. She asked Commissioner Campbell if he sees this priority list as one that will be here for the next several years. COMMISSIONER CAMPBELL replied that this is not only a priority list, it is an inventory of the needs for the state. He thinks that this inventory will go on and on, and each year it will be revised somewhat as the needs advise. He predicts that next year the process will be very simple because it will just be a process of adding on whatever new priorities have come up and changing priorities as conditions have changed. Number 275 REPRESENTATIVE MENARD said it his understanding that next year's budget will be put together with approximately $204 million in ISTEA monies and those monies will be obligated to just priority one projects. COMMISSIONER CAMPBELL acknowledged that is the case, He added that it is possible that a number two priority could make it somewhere, but with the amount that they have in priority one projects, he doubts that will happen. Number 318 REPRESENTATIVE FOSTER said a couple of years ago ISTEA funding was about $160 million and they are now up to about $205 million. He asked the Commissioner what kind of budgets from the federal government will the state have to match five or six years down the road. COMMISSIONER CAMPBELL answered that the amount of money that is allocated to Alaska is set by law, but then the executive branch can set the obligational ceiling at somewhat less than the amount that has been appropriated, and that's the game they have been playing for 20 years. Number 336 REPRESENTATIVE FOSTER said a lot of small villages see a little bit of hope for a little work coming out of the BIA construction fund. He asked if there has been any cooperative role between the state and the BIA to help some of the villages, or do they have to go to one or the other. MIKE MCKINNON answered that DOT met with the BIA and they are in the process of trying to get a package ready that talks about cooperative funding for borough projects. COMMISSIONER CAMPBELL added that they don't want to have too much administration in any village, and they would like to combine it so that it is all under one administration. Number 375 REPRESENTATIVE FOSTER pointed out that a lot of buildings like the airport buildings in some of the smaller communities are in sad shape and there has really never been any push by the Legislature to help fund DOT toward the maintenance of those buildings, as well as the replacement of some of the older equipment in some of the smaller communities. He asked the Commissioner what he saw as the committee's role in giving DOT a hand to help these situations. COMMISSIONER CAMPBELL answered that DOT did get an 11 percent raise in its equipment rental rates going into the next budget year, so they will be generating a little bit more which will be reflected in their maintenance budget. At this point in time, he thinks the department is on track. Number 419 REPRESENTATIVE FOSTER asked if there has been any progress in resolving some of the trucking inspection issues between DOT and some of the other departments. COMMISSIONER CAMPBELL replied that under ISTEA there are 19 sanctions, one of which is vehicle inspection and enforcement, and they are kind of on the ragged edge on that. The department is working with the Alaska Trucking Association and they plan on getting together on November 15 to work out the regulations. He said the safety records on the highways are of great concern to him, and part of the problem is that there are not enough police officers to do the day-to-day truck inspection. Commissioner Campbell pointed out that one way to cut down on the maintenance of the state's highways would be to outlaw studded tires like the State of Minnesota has done. Committee members requested that more information be received on the Minnesota law and how it is working. Number 457 REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON asked if there are many projects that have been appropriated to over several years that are still outstanding accounts and have to paid before they get into the priority one projects. COMMISSIONER CAMPBELL answered that he didn't know how many outstanding projects they have that might have some obligation. He said he thought if they had to clean up something, it would be pretty minor, and that it would have to come out of the $204 million. STEVE SISK added that they don't have any outstanding claims that are going to cut into it to any extent at all. Number 503 REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON asked if the Legislature can have some assurance that the local input to the total prioritization is going to be listened to. COMMISSIONER CAMPBELL responded that once they establish their priority list, they are going to follow it. If they have to change priorities, he said he would hope the legislative representatives would recognize the need for that. In researching the past nine years, they found that the department has pretty much held to every project, to every commitment that was made, although it may not have been for the right number of dollars and it may not have been in the year that someone thought it was going to be built. MIKE MCKINNON said one of the things that the department has heard from local governments across the state is that they need to do a timely and effective job of reporting on the work that they are doing. COMMISSIONER CAMPBELL agreed that communication is not at the level it should be at. TAPE 93-24, SIDE A Number 001 SENATOR RANDY PHILLIPS asked for a clarification on how the list for aviation statewide is developed. MIKE MCKINNON explained that it is the very same process that is used for the federal highway program. The projects are discussed with the communities, the projects are ranked at the regional level and submitted to the statewide aviation group in Anchorage, they are then reviewed and submitted to the commissioner. SENATOR RANDY PHILLIPS expressed concern that Merrill Field is a heavily used airstrip and is in need of attention. He also asked the status of land acquisition at Klunie Lake. JOHN HORN answered that there is a policy committee looking at how to proceed with Klunie Lake. Number 063 REPRESENTATIVE GAIL PHILLIPS referred to a project in Seldovia and said that when the BIA comes into Alaska to do projects, the way the funding was established and the prohibitions on federal highway policies, not a single person in Seldovia could be hired to do that road project. She expressed concern that people were brought in from out of state to do a road project in a small community in Alaska. COMMISSIONER CAMPBELL responded that he was not sure what the BIA rules were in those areas, but it is something they will discuss with them. He also noted that with federal funds, the state can't discriminate against anybody because of their place of residence. Number 100 REPRESENTATIVE FOSTER asked for an explanation on an 8 percent tax the state has placed upon ground transportation units at the Anchorage International Airport. COMMISSIONER CAMPBELL explained that the state rents space at the airport to car rental agencies. The tax was placed on ground transportation units that do not rent space at the airport and they pay a head tax for anybody they pick up at the airport to get one of their rental cars. Number 161 REPRESENTATIVE AL VEZEY commented that the priority list is a well balanced list, and he was particularly pleased that the reconstruction of approximately 25 percent of the Dalton Highway is on the priority one list. COMMISSIONER CAMPBELL said the Dalton Highway is very important to the state, both from the industrial point of view and the tourist point of view. The Tanana Chiefs and the Arctic Borough went to court and got the opening of that road closed. There has been some negotiation with those groups and they have some requests for certain things to happen on that road which the state is attempting to address. The Department of Public Safety has put together some estimates for the additional services being requested, and as soon as that gets up on their priority list, DOT may be including that in some requests from the Legislature. Number 225 SENATOR LINCOLN said the priority list includes the McGrath Road access, and she asked for assurance that this is, in fact, a road to Kantishna and not to McGrath, because the people of McGrath do not want a road to McGrath. She expressed the same concern with a road to McCarthy. COMMISSIONER CAMPBELL said he could not give her that assurance, and that will be determined as the project develops. He added that his responsibility is to look to the overall state need, but in doing so, he would also consider the objections of a local community. Number 306 REPRESENTATIVE DAVIS asked when the committee can expect to see a new list of the priority projects, as well as if they know what some of the changes might be. COMMISSIONER CAMPBELL responded that the new list should be out around December 15 and they hope it will be their final list. They know that the priority list for the Kenai-Soldotna Borough was not right and they will be correcting it. MIKE MCKINNON added that there are a few adjustments coming into the department from communities that they will take action on and make available to the public. Number 365 REPRESENTATIVE MACKIE asked if it was correct that Jim Ayers would be resigning his position as director of the Alaska Marine Highway System. He added that should that happen, it will be a tremendous loss to the state and to the ferry system, and he encouraged the commissioner to involve the coastal communities in the effort of selecting a new director. COMMISSIONER CAMPBELL answered that Mr. Ayers is probably going to be leaving, but that is not final at this moment in time. Number 399 SENATOR SHARP and REPRESENTATIVE FOSTER expressed their appreciation to Commissioner Campbell and his staff for their appearance before the committee. The meeting was adjourned at approximately 3:45 p.m.