SENATE STATE AFFAIRS COMMITTEE January 20, 1998 3:30 p.m. MEMBERS PRESENT Senator Lyda Green, Chairman Senator Jerry Ward, Vice-Chairman Senator Jerry Mackie Senator Mike Miller Senator Jim Duncan MEMBERS ABSENT COMMITTEE CALENDAR SENATE BILL NO. 222 "An Act naming the Robert B. Atwood Building." - MOVED CSSB 222(STA) OUT OF COMMITTEE SENATE BILL NO. 214 "An Act relating to the possession of a concealed deadly weapon by peace officers and chief administrative officers of local police departments; to the definition of police officer as it is defined for police standards; and providing for an effective date." - HEAD AND HELD CSSB 214(STA) SENATE BILL NO. 209 "An Act relating to the Task Force on Privatization; and providing for an effective date." - MOVED SB 209 OUT OF COMMITTEE PREVIOUS SENATE COMMITTEE ACTION No previous action to record. WITNESS REGISTER Mr. Keith Gerkin Dept. of Administration PO Box 110201 Juneau, AK 99801 Position Statement: Commented on SB 222 Mr. Victor Fisher PO Box 201384 Anchorage, AK 99520 Position Statement: Supported SB 222 Mr. Doug North 4101 University Drive Anchorage, AK 99508 Position Statement: Supported SB 222 Ms. Katie Hurley PO Box 870157 Wasilla, AK 99687 Position Statement: Supported SB 222 Mr. Leonard Abel 326 4th Street #1011 Juneau, AK 99801 Position Statement: Commented on SB 214 Ms. Lauree Hugonin Alaska Network on Domestic Violence and Sexual Assault 130 Seward Street #501 Juneau, AK 99801 Position Statement: Commented on SB 214 Mr. Dean Guaneli Dept. of Law PO Box 110300 Juneau, AK 99801 Position Statement: Commented on SB 214 Ms. Jayne Andreen Council on Domestic Violence and Sexual Assault PO Box 111200 Juneau, AK 99801 Position Statement: Commented on SB 214 Mr. Del Smith Dept. of Public Safety 450 Whittier Street Juneau, AK 99801 Position Statement: Commented on SB 214 Mr. Mike McMullen Dept. of Administration, Div. of Personnel PO Box 110201 Juneau, AK 99801 Position Statement: Commented on SB 209 Ms. Pam LaBolle Alaska State Chamber of Commerce 217 2nd Street Juneau, AK 99801 Position Statement: Supported SB 209 ACTION NARRATIVE TAPE 98-1, SIDE A Number 001 CHAIRMAN GREEN called the Senate State Affairs Committee to order at 3:37 p.m., and noted all members present. SB 222 - NAMING ATWOOD BLDG IN ANCHORAGE SENATOR GREEN brought up SB 222 as the first order of business. An amendment was proposed to SB 222 and moved by Senator Ward. There was no objection and the bill was amended. SENATOR KELLY, prime sponsor of the bill, explained the bill would name the newly acquired state office building in Anchorage after Mr. Robert B. Atwood, a 61-year resident of Alaska. He acknowledged Mr. Atwood as an entrepreneur who was involved in most of the distinguishing events in the state during the 20th century. He published the Anchorage times and was a pioneer of the oil industry and an advocate for education and statehood. He chaired the Alaska Statehood Committee and was a tireless visionary, said Senator Kelly. He went on to say Mr. Atwood was a leader and humanitarian and improved Alaska for us all. He would like to see him remembered by future generations. SENATOR KELLY explained the amendment resolved a conflict with the lease agreement signed that allowed the Bank of America to retain its name on the building until 2002. He stated he did not want to pressure Bank of America and would be happy to name the building after 2002. However, the new language allows the possibility of a compromise between the State and the Bank of America before that time. He mentioned that the motivation behind the bill came from Representative John Cowdry and it was his intention that this bill reside in committee until Representative Cowdry's bill came from the house. Representative Cowdry's bill would then be the vehicle for the name change. SENATOR WARD thanked Senator Kelly for the bill and cited Mr. Atwood as his personal motivation behind running for office. He then made a motion to move the bill from committee with individual recommendations. SENATOR GREEN mentioned there were people on line wishing to testify and asked he hold his motion. SENATOR WARD agreed. MS. KATIE HURLEY testified from Mat-Su. She endorsed Mr. Atwood as a visionary and advocate for Statehood. She applauded his tireless work in the face of adversity and cited his strong support as the key to victory in the 1946 vote on Statehood. Ms. Hurley credited Mr. Atwood as a proud supporter of the Alaska Constitution and a great leader. She believes it would be fitting for his name to be honored. MR. VICTOR FISHER from Anchorage agreed with Ms. Hurley, speaking on behalf of three living delegates to the Alaska Constitutional Convention. He echoed her testimony to the character and dedication of Mr. Atwood and expressed appreciation to Senator Kelly and Representative Cowdry for introducing the bill. MR. DOUG NORTH, from Anchorage representing Alaska Pacific University, stated that Mr. Atwood was also a friend of private-hire education, trustee. He attested to Mr. Atwood's strong character and lifelong vitality. He concluded his testimony saying he was pleased to endorse the bill. MR. KEITH GERKIN, representing the Department of Administration (DOA) stated that the amendment adopted satisfied his previous concerns. He clarified that the lease expiration date was March 31, 2002. Number 155 SENATOR WARD repeated his motion to move SB 222 out of committee with individual recommendations. SENATOR GREEN noted no objection and the bill moved with individual recommendations and an accompanying fiscal note. SB 214 - PEACE OFFICERS/ CONCEALED WEAPONS MS. PORTIA PARKER, staff to Senator Miller, presented SB 214. She said the bill makes two changes to recently enacted SB 141. She explained the reason for the bill was to address a problem unintentionally created by a last-minute amendment to the bill last session. The bill as-is inadvertently limits the ability of a peace officer to carry a concealed weapon while on duty in their first year of service. This bill is a result of cooperation with the Alaska Peace Officers Association and allows officers and certain administrative officers to carry a concealed weapon while on or off the job without having to obtain a state permit. MR. LEONARD ABEL identified himself as a pro-gun member of the NRA and a concealed carry permittee as well as a Ph.D. in clinical psychology and the Community Mental Health Services Program Administrator for the Division of Mental Health and Developmental Disabilities. He stated he had worked with Representative James' staff on the original bill, especially in relation to mental health issues. He said now the Department of Public Safety (DPS) has the ability to deny a permit to a person who had a serious mental illness, whether they had been committed of not. To invoke this, the person would have been brought to the attention of the department. So far, he said, only one person has been denied a permit by this procedure. He explained that by changing Section 12 in SB 141, this requirement would be dropped and only people who have been committed could be denied. He believes there are people out there who have not been committed who should not carry concealed weapons. This is his main concern and he believes it could be rectified by a return to the original language of the bill. He does not believe it is overly restrictive as it requires an illness that substantially impairs a persons actions or perceptions. SENATOR MACKIE wondered how Mr. Abel proposed the issuers of the permits would determine a person's mental illness. He asked how this could be accomplished without the infringement of a person's civil liberties. Number 261 MR. ABEL said court action records could be obtained or other information may surface. SENATOR MACKIE asked again if someone has never been officially diagnosed, who would decide if a permit should be issued. MR. ABEL replied a person denied can appeal and any allegations could be checked out. SENATOR MACKIE asked if anyone off the street could offer an opinion that would lead to a denial. MR. ABEL suggested that it has only happened once in 7,500 permits and seems the appropriate thing to do. SENATOR MACKIE expressed discomfort with vague definitions but agreed with the idea. He wondered if the vague wording might cause legal or constitutional problems. MR. ABEL replied that with the change there might be more control available when the situation arose. SENATOR GREEN appreciated Mr. Abel's attempt to balance the issues at stake. She stated that the scope of the bill was limited to a fix of SB 141 and she planned it would stay that way. SENATOR DUNCAN commented that he thought Mr. Abel's testimony was important and he was willing to offer an amendment to broaden the bill's scope. He moved his amendment which he explained addressed the concerns regarding mental illness, indicted felons, and domestic violence facilities. There was objection to the amendment and it was held for discussion. Lauree Hugonin, Executive Director of the Alaska Network on Domestic Violence and Sexual Assault (ANDVSA) realized this was targeted to the law enforcement problem, but hoped it could be broadened to include ANDVSA's concerns. Her first concern regarded misdemeanor crimes of domestic violence. She said these will not be covered under SB 141, thus not applicable to the prohibition against applying for a permit. Her second concern was court orders - certain protective orders do not fall under the federal definition which would keep violators of these kind of orders from possessing handguns. She expressed a third concern about facilities providing services to victims of domestic violence. She said the difference between the state and federal definitions of domestic violence misdemeanors has to do with elements of the crime. Federal domestic violence misdemeanors require the use of force or the threatened use of a deadly weapon by people in certain types of relationships. The definitions restrict the crimes that would be covered and ANDVSA believes offenders of these crimes should not be allowed to obtain a concealed carry permit. She said this was the case prior to SB 141. She added that all court orders will not be covered, only those with a specific finding prohibiting domestic violence. Her last concern regarded domestic violence shelters. She spoke to an amendment prohibiting carrying concealed weapons in domestic violence shelters, saying all programs are not shelters and therefore all are not covered and should be. She stated her concerns were voiced in order of priority. SENATOR DUNCAN said he believed his amendment would address most of the concerns of ANDVSA. MR. DEAN GUANELI, representing the Department of Law (DOL) spoke to the concerns of prosecutors relating to those people charged with felony crimes attempting to obtain a concealed carry permit. He agreed with Senator Taylor that theoretically good judges would impose restrictions on carrying firearms in many cases. However, he believes that judges might not necessarily do this unless the alleged crime involved a weapon. He suggested that theory does not mirror practice. DOL thinks this restriction is important and is sufficiently narrow. SENATOR MILLER remarked that it seems we are going in a direction that assumes guilt until innocence is proven and he has a problem with this. MR. GUANELI understood this concern but says the courts currently lock people up until trial when the evidence warrants it and thinks it is not much more to deny them concealed weapons. SENATOR MILLER wanted to know if these people could openly carry a weapon. MR. GUANELI affirmed they could, unless restricted by a judge. SENATOR MACKIE wondered if this applied to any type of felony. MR. GUANELI said as it is, yes, but it could be limited to certain types of offenses. SENATOR WARD asked how many judges fail to impose restrictions. He added that he would like those judges' names. MR. GUANELI was unsure, he said he would get the information but estimated it to be in the hundreds. TAPE 98-1 SIDE B Number 001 SENATOR GREEN asked if their was a prohibition for indicted felons in federal law. MR. GUANELI thought so, prohibiting the purchase of a firearm. SENATOR GREEN believed the prohibition covered purchase or possession, so this was unnecessary at the state level. MR. GUANELI said if that was the case, it was unnecessary. He added as clarification he did not believe the prohibition applied to indicted felons, only convicted felons. MR. GUANELI restated his previous point that a judge may not impose a weapons restriction on a person indicted, unless the crime involved a weapon. SENATOR GREEN interjected that we all know these people don't get permits in the first place. She said she had no problem saying criminals should not carry weapons. JAYNE ANDREEN, Director of the Council on Domestic Violence and Sexual Assault, agreed with Lauree Houginin's testimony and added that the State of Alaska adopted the Domestic Violence Prevention and Victim Protection Act of 1996. She said this is a model code on domestic violence from a national level. It is used across the nation to evaluate states' progress. She stated an expert in the field has said Alaska has one of the most comprehensive bodies of statute in the country. She repeated Ms. Houginin's point about the difference in state and federal misdemeanor standards and urged the committee to look at the proposed amendment which, in her opinion, is vitally important to continue protecting victims in Alaska. DEL SMITH, Deputy Commissioner of the Department of Public Safety (DPS), administers the concealed handgun permit program. He has worked with staff on the law enforcement problem in the past. He says the current problem may affect 100 people at any given time and is affecting eight people in Juneau at this time. He would like to see this bill passed in a timely manner to address this concern and prevent future problems for law enforcement. He shared concerns about domestic violence shelters as previously expressed but stated SB 214 does correct his main concern. SENATOR MACKIE repeated his question about how a determination might be made that a person is mentally ill. MR. SMITH said in this one case where a permit was denied, information was provided by a person who knew the applicant. He said staff cannot determine mental illness at the permit counter but would like to reserve the right to use discretion. SENATOR MACKIE asked if discretion would be used like police officers on the street employ. MR. SMITH replied that his concern was if the department had not received this information, this person would have gotten a permit. He said the department does contact local police departments prior to issuing a permit but application of the federal standard would have not allowed them to deny this person a permit. SENATOR MACKIE agreed with this but expressed concern with the possibility of infringement of rights due to another person's personal agenda. MR. SMITH reminded the committee that a person dissatisfied with the denial of a permit can make a complaint and the department would investigate the source. He said they are not being arbitrary denying people permits. SENATOR WARD asked if this person denied a permit could carry openly. MR. SMITH said as far as he knows, yes. SENATOR WARD repeated his question, saying even though the department received information about this person, he was not adjudicated and could carry openly then and now. MR. SMITH agreed that he had not been adjudicated and could carry openly then and now. MS. PORTIA PARKER returned to say it was her understanding that federal law prohibited anyone under felony indictment from purchasing or possessing a firearm. She stated that with the current definition of mental illness there would be no prohibition against a person carrying a weapon. She added that under the law two class A misdemeanors in a six-year period would disallow a person from being eligible for a concealed carry permit. She said it was a conscious decision by the bill sponsor to omit a prohibition on carrying concealed weapons on private property and they would be opposed to an amendment expanding a prohibition to private property. SENATOR MILLER introduced the committee substitute and Ms. Parker explained the changes as a suggestion from the bill drafter, changing local to municipal and clarifying the type of law enforcement administrative officers to whom the bill would apply. SENATOR DUNCAN reminded the committee of his amendment but held his motion at this time. SENATOR WARD moved the adoption of CSSB 214(STA). He stated perhaps he and Senator Duncan could work jointly on other issues proposed in another piece of legislation. SENATOR MACKIE asked if the amendment was drafted correctly to the bill. He agreed that section seven of the amendment regarding mental health should be addressed, due to Mr. Abel's testimony. SENATOR GREEN repeated that she would like to have people deal with other concerns in separate legislation. She said this bill is to make a correction to the previous bill as it relates to peace officers. SENATOR WARD offered his belief that adjudication is necessary before a person's right to bear arms is taken away. He would like better definition of this issue. SENATOR DUNCAN expressed to the committee the seriousness of his amendment and believed the testimony of the experts in law enforcement and domestic violence should be addressed immediately. He feared if they were not, they may never reach discussion again. He said he would like clarification on the federal law regarding purchase or purchase and possession of firearms and believes the committee should err on the side of safety. He expressed confidence in the people working with victims of domestic violence and validated their concerns regarding domestic violence facilities. He recounted that there had been lengthy discussion regarding the difference between carrying openly and carrying concealed and in his view it was a major difference. He asked the committee to divide the amendment into four parts: part one being subsection 7 regarding mental illness; part two regarding a person charged with a felony; part three dealing with the crimes of domestic violence and stalking and the fourth part dealing with the facilities providing services to victims of domestic violence. He found these four topics important enough to merit separate rulings by the committee. He moved the division of the amendment. SENATOR WARD objected, roll was taken and the motion failed four to one. SENATOR DUNCAN appreciated the vote on division of the amendment and renewed his motion to move the entire amendment. SENATOR MACKIE said he would vote no on the amendment, agreeing with Senator Duncan on some points but saying it was crucial to address the law enforcement problem immediately. Roll was taken and the amendment failed four to one. SENATOR WARD moved the bill be passed out of committee with individual recommendations and the accompanying fiscal note. Without objection, the bill was moved. SB 209 - TASK FORCE ON PRIVATIZATION SENATOR WARD, prime sponsor of SB 209, explained that this was the exact same bill that appeared before the legislature last year, just with the time frame reduced by one year. He said the Governor had vetoed the bill and everyone had heard the same sponsor statement and bill last year. MR. MIKE MCMULLEN, representing the Department of Administration, Division of Personnel, agreed that the concept of the new bill was the same and so was the position of the division. They still have concerns regarding the requirements of the state collective bargaining agreements. He said the agreements contain requirements for formal feasibility studies before any layoffs of bargaining unit members. He quoted a projected cost of $20,000 - $50,000 per study and said they take some time to conduct. He said the bill's time line would make the affected agencies lag behind legislative changes. He said the task force findings and the feasibility studies might not agree and it would be particularly problematic if the legislative changes precede the findings of the feasibility studies. He hoped the committee would perhaps take another approach and quoted the Governor's veto message saying, "the Administration stands ready to cooperate and provide available information to any committee or task force legislative leadership may appoint to review possible privatization opportunities." PAM LABOLLE, President of the Alaska State Chamber of Commerce said the Chamber supports the bill as one of their top priorities. She feels business supports the state and the state should support business. She said they believe there are many opportunities within government for many new ways of doing business. She informed the committee that Mr. Craig Holt, nationally recognized speaker on "right sizing" government was going to be available later in the week. She said the Chamber has worked with Mr. Holt in the past and he educated them about privatization opportunities. She listed some advantages of competition, including reduced cost and high quality goods and services. SENATOR DUNCAN asked if after the seminars and training the State Chamber had, she thought it would be an easy job to determine which areas might be privatized. MS. LABOLLE responded that it would not be easy but some difficult jobs are the ones worth doing. She said it is a good piece of legislation which identifies a few departments in order to take an initial look at the possible opportunities. SENATOR DUNCAN asked if she had looked at this year's bill. MS. LABOLLE admitted she had not. SENATOR DUNCAN explained he asked because he believes this to be a complex issue where it will be difficult to determine which departments might lend themselves to privatization and review the procedures involved. He said this bill does not look at a few departments, this bill indicates all departments will be reviewed and they will be reviewed by November 15th, 1998. He said he is not speaking against the legislation but, in his opinion, this seems to be too much too soon. He asked Ms. LaBolle if it seemed possible to meet this deadline and do a good job. MS. LABOLLE replied that the task force could identify objectives, much like was done by the Long Range Financial Planning Task Force in three or four months. TAPE 98-2 SIDE A Number 001 SENATOR DUNCAN asked how much of that was adopted. He went on to say he thinks this may be more complex than what was tackled by the Long Range Planning Task Force. He believes there may be legal constraints due to contractual agreements with unions and competitive bidding. He asked her opinion on whether it could be done in a four month period. MS. LABOLLE said it was unfortunate that the bill was vetoed last year or they would have had an additional year to do this. She said it must start somewhere as it is so important. She said state government is growing while the private sector shrinks and business supports the state and must increase. SENATOR DUNCAN did not disagree with supporting the private sector but took exception to the statement that the government has grown while the private sector has been shrinking. He said the government has also been shrinking and there were figures to back that up. He added he did not think Senator Miller and others with their five year plan would be happy with her saying government has grown during their leadership. He stated perhaps the legislation should be pared down so it could be done right. He thinks this may be biting off more than anyone can chew and perhaps it was meant for failure. He said if the sponsor really wanted to get something done, maybe a smaller start would be better. SENATOR WARD moved the bill out of committee with individual recommendations and accompanying fiscal notes. SENATOR DUNCAN objected. Roll was called and the bill passed out with a three to one vote. The meeting was adjourned at 5:15 p.m.