SENATE STATE AFFAIRS COMMITTEE Wasilla, Ak. October 30, 1993 MEMBERS PRESENT Senator Loren Leman, Chair MEMBERS ABSENT Senator Mike Miller, Vice Chair Senator Robin Taylor Senator Jim Duncan Senator Johnny Ellis OTHER MEMBERS PRESENT Representative Pat Carney Representative Ron Larson COMMITTEE CALENDAR SENATE JOINT RESOLUTION NO. 1 Proposing amendments to the Constitution of the State of Alaska relating to the individual right to keep and bear arms. SENATE JOINT RESOLUTION NO. 34 Proposing an amendment to the Constitution of the State of Alaska relating to the individual right to keep and bear arms. PREVIOUS SENATE COMMITTEE ACTION SJR 1 - See State Affairs minutes dated 9/17/93 and 10/23/93. SJR 34 - See State Affairs minutes dated 9/17/93 and 10/23/93. WITNESS REGISTER Mark Chryson 2140 Wolverine Circle Wasilla, Alaska 99654 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SJR 34. Paul Barelka 553 Robin Circle Wasilla, Alaska 99654 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported the right to bear arms. Scotty Parkes P.O. Box 975566 Wasilla, Ak. 99687 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported the right to bear arms. Mark Gordon HC01 6131 AB Palmer, Ak. 99645 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SJR 34. Ed Allen 2753 Porcupine Wasilla, Ak. 99645 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SJR 34. Herbert Thompson P.O. Box 1 Talkeetna, Ak. 99676 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SJR 34. Charles Marsh P.O. Box 2750 Palmer, Ak. 99645 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported both resolutions, but preferred SJR R 34. Walt Warner P.O. Box 520028 Big Lake, Ak. POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SJR 34. Alexander Clark 3900 Misty P.O. Box 4022 Palmer, Ak. 49645 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SJR 34. Kenneth Smith P.O. Box 3574 Palmer, Ak. 99645 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported the right to bear arms. Sam Rick P.O. Box 877522 Wasilla, Ak. POSITION STATEMENT: Supported the right to keep and bear arms. Glenn C. Marden P. O. Box 3552 Palmer, Ak. POSITION STATEMENT: Supported the right to bear arms, but not the e legislation. Michael Carpenter 335 Boniface Anchorage, Ak. POSITION STATEMENT: Supported the right to bear arms. Margaret Betts P.O. Box 871012 Wasilla, Ak. POSITION STATEMENT: Supported the right to bear arms and both pieces of legislation. Mark Miller HC01 P.O. Box 693611 Palmer, Ak. 99645 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported the right to bear all kinds of firms ms arms. Mike Chryst P.O. Box 872488 Wasilla, Ak. 99687 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SJR 34. Leo A. Brueggeman P.O. Box 520684 Big Lake, Ak. 99652 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SJR 34. Sylvia Nichols P.O. Box 4100 Palmer, Ak. 99645 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported the right to bear arms. Kevin Robinson P.O. Box 2711 Palmer, Ak. 99645 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported the right to bear arms and clearer language. David McGraw 1500 Catalina Dr. Wasilla, Ak. 99687 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported the right to keep and bear arms. David McGraw II POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SJR 34. Marvin Cook P.O. Box 9 Talkeetna, Ak. 99676 POSITION STATEMENT: Michael Jordan P.O. Box 84 Willow, Ak. 99688 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SJR 34. Gary McCrorey HC33 Box 2900 Wasilla, Ak. 99654 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SJR 34. Richard Roberts P.O. Box 1430 Palmer, Ak. 99645 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SJR 34. L.J. Zweifel P.O. Box 1936 Palmer, Ak. 99645 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported the right to bear arms and SJR 34 and SJR 1. Herb Marshall P.O. Box 873745 Wasilla, Ak. 99687 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported the right to bear arms. David Norton P.O. Box 2742 Palmer, Ak. 99645 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SJR 34. David L. Lazer HC01, Box 6877 Palmer, Ak. 99645 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported the right to bear arms, but to put it in clear language. Noel Woods Matanuska Valley Sportsmen P.O. Box 827 Palmer, Ak. 99645 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported the right to bear arms. Steve Lord P.O. Box 670271 Chugiak, Ak. 99567 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SJR 34. Michael P. Favors P.O. Box 2757 Palmer, Ak. 99645 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported the right to bear arms. R. W. Sanderline Wasilla, Ak. 99654 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SJR 34. Robert Kohler Palmer, Ak. 99645 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SJR 34. Rick Bryant 2275 Gordon Wasilla, Ak. 99687 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SJR 34. Randall C. Scherer P.O. Box 870862 Wasilla, Ak. 99687 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported the right to bear arms. William Wood P.O. Box 3622 Palmer, Ak. 99645 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported the right to bear arms. Alec C. Clark P.O. Box 4022 Palmer, Ak. 99657 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SJR 34. Monty Cassidy P.O. Box 521457 Big Lake, Ak. 99652 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SJR 34. Robert E. Lilly P.O. Box 520396 Big Lake, Ak. 99657 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported the right to bear arms. Jean Woods P.O. Box 827 Palmer, Ak. 99645 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported the right to bear arms. Laura Lahrson P.O. Box 873411 Wasilla, Ak. 99654 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SJR 34. David Mitchell P.O. Box 871388 Wasilla, Ak. 99687 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SJR 34. Edward Barno 2055 Gordon Circle Wasilla, Ak. 99654 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SJR 34. Ron Arnold, President Alaska Outdoor Council 2932 C Street, # B Anchorage, Ak. 99503 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SJR 34. Bob Gabel HC 32, Box 5247 A-8 Wasilla, Ak. 99654 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported the right to bear arms. John Ward 2450 Wards Rd. Wasilla, Ak. 99654 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SJR 34. Mr. Morgan Eagle River, Alaska POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SJR 34. Jim Thompson P.O. Box 876417 Wasilla, Ak. 99654 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SJR 34. ACTION NARRATIVE TAPE 93-36, SIDE A Number 027 CHAIRMAN LEMAN called the Senate State Affairs meeting to order and announced SJR 1 (RIGHT TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS) and SJR 34 (RIGHT T T T KEEP AND BEAR ARMS) to be up for consideration. He asked Portia Babcock, Aide to the Senate State Affairs Committee, to give an overview on the differences between SJR 1 and SJR 34. Number 032 PORTIA BABCOCK explained the second section of SJR 1 includes a clause that has unclear language relating to other rights to bear arms laws and ordinances and said there is a question whether they would be protected in the constitution if this resolution passes. There is another question about the effective date when the laws would be protected in the constitution. SJR 34 was introduced to exclude the section 2 language, because it was so unclear. REPRESENTATIVE RON LARSON explained the process for passing legislation to the audience. REPRESENTATIVE PAT CARNEY commented that this was a large audience and this is how many people would always be at legislative hearings if the capitol was in Wasilla. MARK CHRYSON, Gun Owners of American and Alaska Independence Party, supported the individual right to keep and bear arms. He supported SJR 34 because the language is much stronger. PAUL BARELKA, Alaska Independence Party, commented that the Borough form of government is illegal, because it doesn't give them representation. They would like to have elected law enforcement officials to organize a militia to enforce the rights of Americans as written in the Constitution. He didn't have a preference for either resolution. SCOTTY PARKES supported the right to bear arms. MARK GORDON strongly supported the constitutional right of citizens to keep and bear arms. He supported SJR 34. He also supported permitting concealed carry and thought those who commit crimes with fire arms should be unmercifully and aggressively prosecuted. ED ALLEN said that disarming the citizenry is not a good way to deal with misuse of arms. Guns are our last line of defense, he said and supported SJR 34. HERBERT THOMPSON, Talkeetna resident, supported the right to bear arms. Number 300 CHARLES MARSH asked for a brief explanation of the differences in the versions. SENATOR LEMAN announced that he would accept written testimony as well as oral testimony. MR. MARSH commented that the language "keep and bear arms" was not strong enough. He suggested stating "the individual's rights to legally own fire arms shall not be denied." MS. BABCOCK again explained the differences between SJR 1 and SJR 34. WALT WARNER, Willow, supported SJR 34. He asked what the legislature is doing about the assumption that when a fire arms accident happens at home, it gives the authorities the right to go in and seize every weapon in the house. ALEXANDER CLARK, Wasilla resident, supported his testimony. SENATOR LEMAN said they would get an answer regarding what the law enforcement agencies are doing. KENNETH SMITH said he wanted to see very clear language on the right to bear arms, because we might need guns to protect ourselves from Washington someday. He said, "If legislation and the law is not legal, then to resist that law is not illegal." TAPE 93-36, SIDE B SAM RICKS, Point McKenzie resident, said his grandparents fought in n the American revolution for just this purpose - for the right to keep and bear arms. He said he was a retired law enforcement officer and can't remember anyone ever going into someone's house and taking their fire arms without just cause. GLENN MARDEN said his neighborhood has a reputation for shooting back and not dialling 911 and they don't have a crime problem. He said he would shy away from grandfathering in things that would be unconstitutional. The U.S. Supreme Court has never ruled in favor of the constitutional right to keep and bear arms to be a collective right. In seeking something else, they are admitting that the right to bear arms is a collective right and not an individual right. MICHAEL CARPENTER asked Senator Leman what were the chances of this legislation passing. SENATOR LEMAN said getting it through House Judiciary might be difficult. MARGARET BETTS supported the right to bear arms. MARK MILLER supported the right to bear all kinds of fire arms. MIKE CHRYST, Standing Against Government Excess (SAGE), supported SJR 34. Thomas Jefferson said, "The nice thing about the second amendment is that you never need it until they try to take it." LEO BRUEGGEMAN supported SJR 34. He did not like the wording that exists now. SYLVIA NICHOLS supported the right to bear arms. Number 300 KEVIN ROBINSON supported law abiding citizens having the right to keep and bear arms. He thought the language should be a little more to the point. DAVID MCGRAW supported the right to keep and bear arms. DAVID MCGRAW II supported SJR 34. MARVIN COOK supported SJR 34. He said the Constitution of the United States is being infringed on a regular basis. The right to bear arms should over rule the state prohibition for concealed carry. The concept that criminals should have all the advantages and lawful citizens have none is unbelievable. MICHAEL JORDAN supported SJR 34. GARY MCCROREY supported any bill to keep and bear arms. He wanted to be able to protect himself and his family against criminals. RICHARD ROBERTS said the West Virginia amendment should be added to SJR 34. L.J. ZWEIFEL said that law abiding citizens have the right to keep and bear arms and protect themselves against those who chose to break the law. She supported any legislation that was for the right to keep and bear arms. HERB MARSHALL commented that the Constitution says time after time that it is an individual's right to bear arms, not just the army's right. SENATOR LEMAN said that the Committee is serious about this legislation and they are having the meeting because they believe in it. DAVID NORTON supported SJR 34, because it would not grandfather in existing laws or laws that would be made during the interim. He said his right to bear arms comes from God, not the constitution. DAVID LAZER supported the right to bear arms and emphasized that the legislation, whatever the number, should have very clear language so that people understand what they are voting on. NOEL WOODS, Matanuska Valley Sportsmen, supported the right to keep and bear fire arms. TAPE 93-37, SIDE A STEVE LORD said this country was founded by people who believed in God. God has been systematically destroyed in schools. He supported SJR 34 and said it supported the original Constitution of the United States. MICHAEL FAVORS said we need to write our Congressmen, the President, etc. and let them know how we feel about the right to bear arms. R. W. SANDERLINE supported SJR 34. ROBERT KOHLER supported SJR 34. RICK BRYANT supported the right to bear arms legislation. He supported SJR 34. RANDALL SCHERER supported the right to bear arms. WILLIAM WOOD said if we don't have the right to bear arms, other countries will just come in and take over. ALEC CLARK, law enforcement officer, researched the records of 150 murderers. Out of those, only one individual purchased a fire arm for the sole reason of committing a crime. Everyone else used something that was already there - a truck, a wood stove, etc. The availability of fire arms is not responsible for the rise in crime. He supported SJR 34 and the West Virginia amendment. REPRESENTATIVE LARSON commented that he favored the legislation regarding juveniles who commit felonies being tried as adults. He asked if they agreed. He received a lot of agreement from the audience. MONTY CASSIDY supported SJR 34. He also liked the wording in the West Virginia amendment. ROBERT LILLY supported the right to bear arms. JEAN WOODS, National Rifle Association, explained that the second amendment of the Constitution was written by the founding fathers for a civilian army. Because the militia has changed, we have a standing army; but we still have the right to keep and bear arms as citizens to protect ourselves from domestic and foreign disorder. LAURA LAHRSON, naturalized American citizen, said the three most important rights we have are the right to free speech, to vote, and to keep and bear arms. She supported SJR 34. DAVID MITCHELL supported SJR 34 and the West Virginia amendment. EDWARD BARNO supported SJR 34, but favored the language of the West Virginia Constitution. ROD ARNOLD, President, Alaska Outdoor Council, supported SJR 34. He said it was important to have clear wording. BOB GABEL supported the right to bear arms. JOHN WARD supported the right to keep and bear arms. He pointed out that the whole Borough they are in is as big as West Virginia and they have only 2 police officers. He supported having a concealed carry permit program. MR. MORGAN, Eagle River resident, supported SJR 34. JIM THOMPSON said he was involved with the student exchange program and has a student from Czechoslovakia. This student said it was illegal to carry weapons of any sort there. People who hold office there cannot be overthrown because of their money and the time they have been in office. He supported SJR 34 and the West Virginia amendment. REPRESENTATIVE PAT CARNEY said he appreciated the crowd. SENATOR LEMAN thanked everyone for their participation and adjourned the meeting.