ALASKA STATE LEGISLATURE  SENATE RESOURCES STANDING COMMITTEE  March 23, 2016 3:30 p.m. MEMBERS PRESENT Senator Cathy Giessel, Chair Senator Mia Costello, Vice Chair Senator John Coghill Senator Bert Stedman Senator Bill Stoltze Senator Bill Wielechowski MEMBERS ABSENT  Senator Peter Micciche COMMITTEE CALENDAR  COMMITTEE SUBSTITUTE FOR HOUSE BILL NO. 137(FIN) AM "An Act raising certain fees related to sport fishing, hunting, and trapping; relating to the fish and game fund; providing for the repeal of the sport fishing surcharge and sport fishing facility revenue bonds; replacing the permanent sport fishing, hunting, or trapping identification card for certain residents with an identification card valid for three years; relating to hunting and fishing by proxy; relating to fish and game conservation decals; raising the age of eligibility for a sport fishing, hunting, or trapping license exemption for state residents; raising the age at which a state resident is required to obtain a license for sport fishing, hunting, or trapping; and providing for an effective date." - HEARD & HELD PREVIOUS COMMITTEE ACTION  BILL: HB 137 SHORT TITLE: HUNT/FISH/TRAP: FEES; LICENSES; EXEMPTIONS SPONSOR(s): REPRESENTATIVE(s) TALERICO 03/06/15 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS 03/06/15 (H) RES, FIN 03/20/15 (H) RES AT 1:00 PM BARNES 124 03/20/15 (H) Heard & Held 03/20/15 (H) MINUTE(RES) 03/25/15 (H) RES AT 6:00 PM BARNES 124 03/25/15 (H) Moved CSHB 137(RES) Out of Committee 03/25/15 (H) MINUTE(RES) 03/27/15 (H) RES RPT CS(RES) NT 2DP 3NR 2AM 03/27/15 (H) DP: OLSON, TALERICO 03/27/15 (H) NR: HERRON, JOSEPHSON, JOHNSON 03/27/15 (H) AM: SEATON, TARR 04/07/15 (H) FIN AT 1:30 PM HOUSE FINANCE 519 04/07/15 (H) Heard & Held 04/07/15 (H) MINUTE(FIN) 04/10/15 (H) FIN AT 1:30 PM HOUSE FINANCE 519 04/10/15 (H) Heard & Held 04/10/15 (H) MINUTE(FIN) 04/13/15 (H) FIN RPT CS(FIN) NT 5DP 5NR 04/13/15 (H) DP: PRUITT, WILSON, GATTIS, MUNOZ, THOMPSON 04/13/15 (H) NR: SADDLER, GARA, GUTTENBERG, EDGMON, NEUMAN 04/13/15 (H) FIN AT 9:00 AM HOUSE FINANCE 519 04/13/15 (H) Moved CSHB 137(FIN) Out of Committee 04/13/15 (H) MINUTE(FIN) 04/15/15 (H) TRANSMITTED TO (S) 04/15/15 (H) VERSION: CSHB 137(FIN) AM 04/15/15 (S) RES AT 3:30 PM BUTROVICH 205 04/15/15 (S) Scheduled but Not Heard 04/16/15 (S) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS 04/16/15 (S) RES, FIN 04/16/15 (S) RES AT 3:30 PM BUTROVICH 205 04/16/15 (S) Heard & Held 04/16/15 (S) MINUTE(RES) 04/17/15 (S) FIN AT 9:00 AM SENATE FINANCE 532 04/17/15 (S) Scheduled but Not Heard 02/29/16 (S) RES AT 3:30 PM BUTROVICH 205 02/29/16 (S) Heard & Held 02/29/16 (S) MINUTE(RES) 03/23/16 (S) RES AT 3:30 PM BUTROVICH 205 WITNESS REGISTER JOSHUA BANKS, Staff to Representative Talerico Alaska State Legislature Juneau, Alaska POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on SCS CSHB 137, Version V, for the sponsor. AKIS GIALOPSOS, Staff to Senator Giessel and the Senate Resources Committee Alaska State Legislature Juneau, Alaska POSITION STATEMENT: Explained the changes to SCS CSHB 137( ), version 29-LS0625\V. BRUCE DALE, Director Division of Wildlife Conservation Alaska Department of Fish and Game (ADF&G) Palmer, Alaska POSITION STATEMENT: Answered questions on SCS CSHB 137( ), version 29-LS0625\V. KEVIN BROOKS, Deputy Commissioner Alaska Department of Fish and Game Juneau, Alaska POSITION STATEMENT: Answered questions on SCS CSHB 137( ), version 29-LS0625\V. TOM BROOKOVER, Director Sportfish Division Alaska Department of Fish and Game Anchorage, Alaska POSITION STATEMENT: Answered questions on SCS CSHB 137( ), version 29-LS0625\V. AL BARRETTE, representing himself Fairbanks, Alaska POSITION STATEMENT: Suggested improvements to SCS CSHB 137. MIKE TINKER Alaska Wildlife Conservation Association Ester, Alaska POSITION STATEMENT: Suggested improvements to SCS CSHB 137( ), version 29-LS0625\V. CHUCK DERRICK, President Chitina Dipnetters Association Fairbanks, Alaska POSITION STATEMENT: Suggested improvements to SCS CSHB 137. RICKY GEASE, Executive Director Kenai River Sportfishing Association (KRSA) Kenai, Alaska POSITION STATEMENT: Expressed support, while suggesting an amendment to SCS CSHB 137( ), version 29-LS0625\V. TED WELLMAN, President Kenai River Special Management Area Advisory Board Kenai, Alaska POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SCS CSHB 137, including the sockeye salmon stamp. JOE CONNORS, sportfishing lodge owner Sterling, Alaska POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SCS CSHB 137, including the sockeye salmon stamp. DOUG VINCENT-LANG, Representing himself Anchorage, Alaska POSITION STATEMENT: Supported an adequately funded department, but expressed several concerns with SCS CSHB 137( ), version 29- LS0625\V. NANCY HILLSTRAND, Representing herself Kachemak Bay, Alaska POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on HB 137. RICHARD BISHOP, Representing himself Fairbanks, Alaska POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SCS CSHB 137( ), version 29- LS0625\V. THOR STACEY, Lobbyist Alaska Professional Hunters Association Fairbanks, Alaska POSITION STATEMENT: "Very much" supported a well-funded department and SCS CSHB 137( ), version 29-LS0625\V, as written. EDDIE GRASSER, Lobbyist Safari Club International, Alaska Chapter Juneau, Alaska POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SCS CSHB 137( ), version 29- LS0625\V. RON SOMERVILLE, Lobbyist Territorial Sportsmen Juneau, Alaska POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SCS CSHB 137( ), version 29- LS0625\V. DOUG LARSON Territorial Sportsmen, Inc. (TSI) Juneau, Alaska POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SCS CSHB 137( ), version 29- LS0625\V. ACTION NARRATIVE 3:30:27 PM CHAIR CATHY GIESSEL called the Senate Resources Standing Committee meeting to order at 3:30 p.m. Present at the call to order were Senators Stedman, Coghill, Stoltze, Wielechowski, and Chair Giessel. HB 137-HUNT/FISH/TRAP: FEES;LICENSES;EXEMPTIONS  3:30:47 PM CHAIR GIESSEL announced consideration of HB 137 [CSHB 137(FIN) am was before the committee] saying this is the bill's third hearing and it was last heard on February 29. 3:31:12 PM SENATOR COGHILL moved to adopt SCS CSHB 137(RES), version 29- LS0625\V, dated 3/23/16, as the working document. CHAIR GIESSEL objected for discussion purposes. 3:31:56 PM SENATOR COSTELLO joined the committee. JOSHUA BANKS, Staff to Representative Talerico, Alaska State Legislature, introduced himself and said he was available to comment on SCS CSHB 137(RES), version 29-LS0625\V, for the sponsor. 3:32:04 PM AKIS GIALOPSOS, Staff to Senator Giessel and the Senate Resources Committee, Alaska State Legislature, explained Version V, as follows: 1. Page 1, Lines 1-5: Changes the title of the bill by adding the following semicolons: "An Act relating to the powers and duties of the commissioner of fish and game; establishing an intensive management surcharge; providing for the repeal of the intensive management surcharge; establishing an anadromous sockeye salmon tag for certain rivers;" The rest of the original title resumes after line 5. 2. Page 2, Lines 2-9: Adds a new Section. 1 of the bill, inserting legislative intent that educational programs funded by the Department of Fish and Game using funds from the fish and game funds shall include a component on the history and principles of the North American Wildlife Conservation Model. 3. Page 2, Lines 10-13: Adds a new Section. 2, adding a new paragraph (22) to AS 16.05.050(a) "Entitled: Powers and Duties of the Commissioner," which directs the Commissioner of Fish and Game to maintain and improve land used to access both subsistence and personal use dipnet fisheries, and to maintain and operate sanitary facilities provided for the use of dip-net fishing. 4. Page 3, Line 5: Amends Section. 4 [Prior Version Section. 2] by raising the listed age from "62" to "65" years of age; this change in age will conform throughout the Committee Substitute. 5. Page 5, Line 1: Amends Section. 7 [Prior Version Section. 5] by raising the resident hunting license from "30" dollars in the previous version of the bill, to "40" dollars. 6. Page 5, Line 3: Amends Section. 8 [Prior Version Section. 6] by raising the resident hunting and trapping license from "45" dollars in the previous version of the bill, to "60" dollars. 3:34:41 PM 7. Page 5, Line 5: Amends Section. 9 [Prior Version Section. 7] by raising the resident trapping license from "20" dollars in the previous version of the bill, to "25" dollars. 8. Page 5, Line 7: Amends Section. 10 [Prior Version Section. 8] by raising the resident hunting and sport fishing license from "45" dollars in the previous version of the bill, to "60" dollars. 9. Page 5, Line 9: Amends Section. 11 [Prior Version Section. 9] to conform to the changes in Section. 10 by raising the resident hunting and sport fishing license from "54" dollars in the previous version of the bill, to "69" dollars. Also corrects the amount in statute that is being removed, because of the legislation, from "45" dollars in the previous version of the bill, to "60" dollars. 10. Page 5, Line 11: Amends Section. 12 [Prior Version Section. 10] by raising the resident hunting, fishing, and sport fishing license from "60" dollars in the previous version of the bill, to "80" dollars. 3:35:52 PM 11. Page 5, Line 25: Amends Section. 13 [Prior Version Section. 11] to conform to the changes in Section. 12 by raising the resident hunting, trapping and sport fishing license from "69" dollars in the previous version of the bill, to "89" dollars. Also corrects the amount in statute that is being removed because of the legislation, from "60" dollars in the previous version of the bill, to "80" dollars. 12. Page 6, Lines 5-6: Amends Section. 14 [Prior Version Section. 12] by raising the nonresident sport fishing license by the following provisions: a. The 14 day license is increased from "60" dollars in the previous version of the bill, to "75" dollars. b. The seven day license is increased from "40" dollars in the previous version of the bill, to "45" dollars. 13. Page 6, Lines 12-13: Amends Section. 15 [Prior Version Section. 13] to conform to the changes in Section. 14 by raising the nonresident sport fishing license by the following provisions: a. The 14 day license is increased from "69" dollars in the previous version of the bill, to "84" dollars. Also corrects the amount in statute that is being removed because of the legislation, from "60" dollars in the previous version of the bill, to "75" dollars. b. The seven day license is increased from "49" dollars in the previous version of the bill, to "54" dollars. Also corrects the amount in statute that is being removed because of the legislation, from "40" dollars in the previous version of the bill, to "45" dollars. 14. Page 6, Line 23: Amends Section. 19 [Prior Version Section. 17] by increasing the nonresident hunting and trapping license from "350" dollars in the previous version of the bill, to "375" dollars - in reference to wolverines. 15. Page 7, Lines 1-2/Page 7, Lines 5-7/Line 15: Amends Section. 20 [Prior Version Section. 18] by changing the amounts of various nonresident big game tags to include: a. Lowering the black bear tag from "600" dollars in the previous version of the bill, to "450" dollars. b. Lowering the brown or grizzly tag from "1200" dollars in the previous version of the bill, to "1000" dollars. c. Raises the deer tag from "275" dollars in the previous version of the bill, to "300" dollars. d. Raises the elk tag from "575" dollars in the previous version of the bill, to "600" dollars. e. Raises the goat tag from "575" dollars in the previous version of the bill, to "600" dollars. f. Raises the wolverine tag from "350" dollars in the previous version of the bill, to "375" dollars. 3:38:41 PM 16. Page 7, Line 25: Amends Section. 21 [Prior Version Section. 19] by raising the applicable age from 60 years of age to 65 years of age. 3:39:49 PM CHAIR GIESSEL interrupted to say on page 7, line 15, he just read the wolverine tag was raised from something to 375 dollars, and it's supposed to be 350 dollars. MR. GIALOPSOS said she was correct and apologized for the misstatement. He continued to review the changes. 17. Page 8, Line 29 to Page 9, Line 5: Adds a new Section. 25, establishing a "15" dollar fee for the Chitina dip net fishing permit changing existing statute that charges a "0" dollar fee. 18. Page 9, Line 14: Amends Section. 26 [Prior Version Section. 23] by raising the applicable age from 60 years of age to 65 years of age. 19. Page 10, Lines 2-28: Adds a new Section. 28, establishing an anadromous sockeye salmon tag for the Kenai and Kasilof Rivers under the same restrictions and provisions as the statewide king salmon tag, and fees would be assessed under the following schedule: a. Residents would be charged "15" dollars b. Nonresidents would be charged: i. "15" dollars for a one day tag ii. "30" dollars for a three day tag iii. "45" dollars for a seven day tag iv. "75" dollars for a 14 day tag v. "150" dollars for an annual tag 3:40:40 PM 20. Page 10, Lines 29-31 to Page 11, Lines 1-8: Adds a new Section. 29, establishing an intensive management surcharge for the purpose of funding the intensive management of the state's game populations under AS 16.05.255(e). The surcharge will be assessed on hunting licenses in the amount of "10" dollars for all applicable schedules. Individuals qualifying for a "5" dollar license or a free license would be exempt from the surcharge. 21. Page 11, Line 30: Amends Section. 31 [Prior Version Section. 26] by raising the applicable age from 62 years of age in the previous version of the bill, to 65 years of age. 22. Page 14, Line 4: Adds a new Section. 37, repealing the newly created Section. 29 (Intensive Management Surcharge). This is part of a sun-setting process that will be concluded later in the bill. 23. Page 14, Lines 8-26: Amends Section. 39 by conforming the order of sections referenced; raising the applicable age from 62 years of age in the previous version of the bill, to 65 years of age; extends the sunset dates from January 1, 2019 in the previous version of the bill, to January 1, 2020; and extends the sunset dates from December 31, 2018 in the previous version of the bill, to December 31, 2019. 3:42:08 PM 24. Page 15, Lines 5-7: Amends Section. 41 by conforming the renumbered sections to the conditional effects referenced in the legislation. 25. Page 15, Lines 8-10: Amends Section. 42 by conforming the renumbered sections to the respective effective dates referenced in Section. 41 of the legislation. 26. Page 15, Line 11: Adds a new Section. 43, creating an effective date of December 31, 2020, for Section. 37 of the bill (the repeal language of the Intensive Management Surcharge). 27. Page 15, Lines 12-13: Amends Section. 44 by extending the effective date to all provisions not otherwise designated prior to January 1, 2017. 3:43:05 PM SENATOR STOLTZE asked the fiscal impact of changing the age range for participants requiring a license. MR. GIALOPSOS said his office had not done any fiscal analysis, but perhaps the sponsor had. 3:43:50 PM JOSHUA BANKS, Staff to Representative Talerico, Alaska State Legislature, Juneau, Alaska, said their office hadn't done a fiscal analysis, but the department probably had. SENATOR STOLTZE asked the policy reason behind the bill, because it doesn't have a fiscal reason. MR. BANKS replied the reason behind lowering the age to 16 in the \H version of HB 137 (that passed the House) was to encourage young hunters to participate in hunting and fishing. The reason for lowering the age for the permanent license from 65 to 62 was to match with social security, and the sponsor is not opposed to those two changes. SENATOR STOLTZE said for a long period of time the personal use fisheries were classified as subsistence and the board changed that. Many still consider that a subsistence fishery he said, and asked the philosophy behind the dip net fee. MR. BANKS deferred that to the department. MR. GIALOPSOS replied that this bill came from the Chitina Dip Netters Association who wanted to find a mechanism by which the Department of Transportation and Public Facilities (DOTPF) or the Department of Natural Resources (DNR), if those duties were transitioned to that agency, would be able to be funded to clean the toilet facilities, maintain the roads for access on state land for the Chitina dip netters, and also collect the requisite garbage to be able to deal with the human health impacts there. SENATOR STOLTZE asked if this fee was assessed whether or not one uses lands or launches at a private facility, as many folks do to access the Copper River fisheries. In other words, he asked if this is a broad-based tax on the personal use subsistence fishery. 3:47:56 PM MR. GIALOPSOS said that was correct. SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI asked if that fee would apply to fish wheels on Chitina. MR. GIALOPSOS said he did not know. SENATOR STOLTZE said fish wheels fall under a personal use fishery and he wondered why the term "dip netting" was used instead of "personal use fisheries." MR. GIALOPSOS said their office crafted that language with the Chitina Dip Netters Association, but if there was a mistake in editing, that was his own mistake. CHAIR GIESSEL responded that her communication with the Chitina Dip Netting Association revealed that folks do launch from private areas. They may hire someone to take them to a location on the river, but regardless they are likely contributing to garbage issues and would like to see the area kept clean. And there are the folks that would like to be able to take their four-wheelers back there, but because of the condition of the road and the continuing sluffing of that slope, it needs to be cleaned up each year by DOTPF, and frankly, DOTPF is getting budget cuts. SENATOR STOLTZE said he understands, but he just wanted to put some of this on the record. 3:49:46 PM SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI remembered a recent Supreme Court case on how gear is identified and asked if they can constitutionally charge a fee for dip netting (on the Chitina River) but not for using a fish wheel or a rod and reel. MR. GIALOPSOS said he could not answer that. SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI said the Kenai River has a resident anadromous sockeye tag, and that looks like it applies only to sport fishing and not to the small number of subsistence users in Kenai River or the dip netters. MR. GIALOPSOS replied that is correct. It does not cover the dip netters, and the Kenai River Sportfishing Association said that language could be modified if necessary. SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI clarified that he is not advocating that. CHAIR GIESSEL found no further questions and removed her objection and announced that SCS CSHB 137(RES), version 29- LS0625\V, was before the committee. CHAIR GIESSEL asked if the sponsor had any comments about the committee substitute. 3:52:39 PM MR. BANKS responded that the sponsor supported all the changes except the grizzly and black bear tags for non-residents. He believes there is high demand from non-residents to hunt grizzly bears and that $1200 is a reasonable increase and that $500 is a reasonable increase for a black bear tag. He still has reservations about the intensive management surcharge, but is willing to have a $5 surcharge. He maintained his concerns about further increases to the resident hunting and fishing licenses (changes 5-11). SENATOR STEDMAN commented that a decade or so ago the license fees were raised to pay back bonds that were issued to build two hatcheries, one in Fairbanks and one in Anchorage, which have now been built. It would be nice to have an update on the status of those bonds, because as he recalled, eventually the bonds would be paid off and that was supposed to bring the amount of the license fee back down. Now they are talking about embedding fees that are to pay off the bonds and never repealing them. And today they are talking about raising the rates again before the bonds are even paid off. He said it would also be nice to have a geographical breakdown of where in the state people are buying these permits. It was kind of surprising a decade or so ago, when they did that they found that there are vast areas in Alaska that had very little license fee collection. Had that changed? CHAIR GIESSEL responded that ADF&G suggested retaining those fees for maintenance and operations of the hatcheries. 3:55:49 PM BRUCE DALE, Director, Division of Wildlife Conservation, Alaska Department of Fish and Game (ADF&G), Palmer, said Deputy Commissioner Brooks would address that issue. KEVIN BROOKS, Deputy Commissioner, Alaska Department of Fish and Game (ADF&G), Juneau, Alaska, explained that the hatchery bonds will be paid off no later than 2023. There had been some early payment of the debt, because license sales have started to pick up. So, that date could move up as early as 2021. House Finance increased the surcharge to $9 once the bonds are paid off. Currently, that surcharge sunsets on Dec 31 in the year the bonds are paid. They have a variable rate with some of the non- resident licenses having a higher amount. That changes to a $9 increase across the board in the bill that passed the House. 3:57:43 PM SENATOR STEDMAN recalled that the Southeast region paid about 27 percent of the revenue needed for those hatcheries and got very little benefit. Now he is concerned about embedding those fees in the system, and it should be discussed as a policy decision. Once the fees are embedded, they would never go away. He does not know the current status of those hatcheries, but he hopes they are functioning better than they were several years ago. 3:58:50 PM MR. BROOKS said that both hatcheries are operating at full or near full production. Some growth capacity was built in. He said he would be glad to provide license purchase data back to the committee using zip codes or by community. SENATOR STEDMAN said he would like to see some of the fees that they talk about sunsetting getting taken out instead of becoming embedded. SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI asked if the sockeye salmon fee for the Kenai River applies to tributaries like the Russian River. 4:00:34 PM TOM BROOKOVER, Director, Sportfish Division, Alaska Department of Fish and Game, Anchorage, replied that the resident tag would be required for the Kenai and Kasilof Rivers, and while it doesn't specifically say main stem or tributaries, they tend to view that type of categorization as the drainage for the whole system. SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI said for clarity if you go to the Russian River Sanctuary you are fishing in Kenai and you can move five feet and be in the river. Is that how they are going to interpret it? MR. BROOKOVER replied that they would interpret it by default for that drainage as a whole, and it would include the Russian River. There would be no demarcation between the Russian and Kenai Rivers. SENATOR COSTELLO said 75 percent of department's income comes from non-resident fees, and she asked how these fee changes will affect that percentage. MR. BROOKS answered that they had done an analysis for each version of the bill that breaks the fees out by hunting, fishing, resident, and non-resident, and they would work up that same analysis for any CS. She is correct that a large amount of the revenue comes from non-residents. 4:02:54 PM SENATOR COSTELLO asked how long these fees will be in effect. MR. BROOKS replied that fees have not been changed for about 20 years. Once they are set they tend to stay a long time. SENATOR COSTELLO asked how Alaska's resident fees compare to those of other states. MR. BROOKS replied that comparisons have been done primarily with the western states, because a lot of the licenses are similar. Generally speaking, Alaska's fees are low for both residents and non-residents. SENATOR STOLTZE asked if the sockeye tag is intended to apply to the personal use fishery and the subsistence fishery. 4:04:42 PM MR. BROOKOVER responded that it would not apply to the personal use fishery, because the language says: "A resident may not engage in sport fishing on the Kenai or Kasilof Rivers without having a current year's sockeye salmon tag." SENATOR STOLTZE asked if it is his interpretation that this will only apply to anglers. MR. BROOKOVER said that is his original interpretation. SENATOR STOLTZE asked for him to let the committee know if that interpretation evolves. SENATOR STEDMAN said one of his favorites subjects is hatcheries, because he has quite a few in his district, and he wanted the department to get back him on the status of the hatchery bonds and if there had been any discussion to privatize them to get rid of the maintenance issue. He also wanted to know if any general fund monies had gone to the hatcheries. MR. BROOKS said he would get a bond repayment table from the Department of Revenue and that no general fund money is being used to run the two sportfish hatcheries, the William Jack Hernandez Hatchery in Anchorage and the Ruth Bernard Hatchery in Fairbanks. Fish & Game funds and federal Dingle Johnson funds are used to run those. He explained that for several years the appropriation bill had a provision for all state agencies to get some money due to a "fuel trigger" when oil was over $100/barrel, and that hasn't happened for a while. But at that point in time general funds were used, because a lot of the heat production at two hatcheries was from fuel purchases. SENATOR STEDMAN said he was concerned with the funding source game-change in the finance committees. MR. BROOKS said he would provide information that is required. SENATOR STOLTZE asked if there is an urgency to making this change now, because the issue will sunset and be before the legislature in five years. 4:10:18 PM MR. BROOKS answered that there is no urgency since there is a window before the bonds are paid off. Neither the sponsor nor the department was involved in bringing that amendment forward, but the department would implement the bill however it finally comes out. 4:10:58 PM MR. BANKS added that the sponsor said the change was made in the House Finance Committee, and he was fine with it, but he would also be fine if the committee took those sections out. SENATOR STOLTZE asked if he could tell the committee something about the provenance of the amendment. MR. BANKS replied that he didn't know which member in the House Finance Committee offered it. SENATOR STOLTZE asked if it was in a committee substitute or an amendment. MR. BANKS replied that it was in a committee substitute. SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI asked the differences between section 5 and section 6 on page 4. It looks like section 5, AS 16.05.340(a)(1) is amended to read that the fishing license goes from $15 to $20. Then it looks like section 6 amends section 5 to go to $29. MR. BROOKS said Section 6 has a different effective date that would kick in when the bonds are paid off. That is how it was done in each case where there is an increase in license fee resulting from the conversion of a $9 surcharge. 4:13:17 PM SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI said he was trying to figure out how much a sport fishing license is going to cost and asked if the effective date in this bill is 2017. 4:14:48 PM MR. BROOKS said, yes, and he explained that Section 5 would go into effect on January 1, 2017, and Section 6 is tied to the full pay-off of the bonds in roughly 2022 or 2023. That similar construct is used throughout. MR. BROOKS addressed an earlier question about the fiscal impact of raising the age for obtaining the permanent license from 60 to 65 years and raising the age of requiring a license from 16 years to 18. He said there was an analysis of the earlier version of the bill. 4:15:25 PM CHAIR GIESSEL thanked Mr. Brooks and opened public testimony. 4:15:36 PM At ease 4:16:40 PM AL BARRETTE, representing himself, Fairbanks, said he has been following this bill since its inception, and he had heard a lot of good questions today. One he really wanted answered is if the Board of Fisheries (BOF) has the authority to require a sportfishing license for a personal use fishery. AS 16.05.330, which declares a person has to have a license for hunting and sport fishing, does not mention subsistence. That is why subsistence fishers are not required to have a license. That is not in the bill, but neither does the bill say a personal use fishery needs a license, but the BOF seems to think they have the authority to require that. MR. BARRETTE said that page 2 of the bill talks about the principals of the American Wildlife Conservation Model and he would be reluctant to have that language in there without adding trapping. In fact, it discourages the sale of game animals and that is what trappers do. Also, this bill only talks about providing education for hunters and sport fishers, and again, he is a trapper and supports trapping and fellow trappers. Next, he said, the low income license is for a "family or household," and they should realize that there are households with two or three families in them, and this language would greatly deprive them from combining all their incomes into one household. Furthermore, new language for the low income license really doesn't do anything, because in order to receive state or federal subsidies, most, if not all, of those programs are based on the federal poverty guidelines. If you are getting federal or state subsidies now, it's because you fall within those poverty guidelines. So, at least 20,000 Alaskans will get that license and the fee hasn't been raised as the others have been. 4:19:50 PM MIKE TINKER, Alaska Wildlife Conservation Association, Ester, Alaska, said HB 137 needs more work. He did point out that a lot of work had already been done it showing the interest in it. However, the definitions need more work to reflect some of the orientations that the senators and Mr. Barrette had talked about. He surmised that Wildlife Conservation would get about $5.4 million more, but assuming a 10 percent drop in sales because of the new rates, that would come down to $4.86 million. Sportfish at about $6.25 million may come up with only about $5.5 million. The trap is that Pitman Robertson funds are capped at $25 million and the present use is around $20 million. That leaves them $5 million. So, $1.6 million is needed in order to reach the cap and every dollar raised over that doesn't get a federal match. People shouldn't think that because all this money is being created that the state is also going to get a 3 to 1 match. MR. TINKER said from his experience, the non-resident 3-day license in Washington is just what Alaska's is going to be. The Alaska hunting license with the surcharge is going up 100 percent and for non-residents up 44 percent. This will be a problem for some people and the same goes for the King salmon stamp that is going up 50 percent and 30 percent for non- residents. Alaska statutes require that license revenues benefit the purchasers and this is an area where the subsistence users are possibly in trouble. 4:23:08 PM CHUCK DERRICK, President, Chitina Dipnetters Association, Fairbanks, noted that Section 220 refers to improving state- owned land accessing subsistence and personal dipnet fisheries and to maintain sanitary facilities, but nothing refers directly to Chitina. The association is only concerned with the Chitina dipnet permit, and has tried to find a way to designate a special account within the fish and game fund that the dipnet permit fees could go to pay for the three things concerning the Chitina dipnet fishery: garbage, toilets, and maintaining the trail that runs along the canyon, which is the major ground access to the fishery and totally unsafe for four-wheelers. Their intent was not for subsistence or other dipnet fisheries. MR. DERRICK said HB 137 directs the ADF&G commissioner to maintain land used to access both subsistence and personal-use dipnet fisheries and to maintain and operate sanitary facilities for dipnet fishing. Again, it generalizes all the dipnet fisheries and even includes subsistence. He asked if dipnet permit fees are going to be used to maintain roads for all other fisheries. He said he appreciated all the work everyone has done, but he hoped his concerns would be addressed. CHAIR GIESSEL noted that "subsistence" was on page 2, lines 11- 13, and thanked him for bringing it to their attention. 4:26:59 PM RICKY GEASE, Executive Director, Kenai River Sportfishing Association (KRSA), Kenai, Alaska, said KRSA has asked to include the sockeye salmon stamp for the Kasilof and Kenai Rivers for both the sport fish and personal use licensing. He suggested that page 10, line 5, includes: "a resident may not engage in sport and/or personal use fishing for anadromous salmon....," and that family members need just one license (if a family member has the sockeye salmon stamp, then other members, while they are engaged in dipnetting, would not). So, the person getting the dipnet permit would be the person required to get the sockeye salmon stamp. MR. GEASE said the Kenai has the two largest personal-use fisheries in Cook Inlet-the Kenai and Kasilof Rivers. Budget reductions means that funding is needed for enforcement and management infrastructure, especially on the Kasilof River where a municipality does not collect fees. It needs porta-potties, trash pick-up, and fisheries management, but overall, KRSA supports the legislation. 4:29:10 PM TED WELLMAN, President, Kenai River Special Management Area Advisory Board, Kenai, Alaska, said the advisory board was created in statute when the park was created. It has 17 members and includes the public and the municipalities. It also includes state and federal agencies as non-voting members. He expressed support for the sockeye salmon stamp, and that support goes way back to the 1997 Comprehensive Plan, which discussed having a user fee on the Kenai River to cover enforcement. He said the impacts to the Kenai River have increased substantially in the last few years, and money is needed for enforcement, bank protection, and rehabilitation on the river - as many people use the Kenai River as a bank fishery. MR. WELLMAN said the board has always considered this assessment going to the personal use fishery, as well, because the personal use fishery uses substantial facilities inside the park. This is a good way to provide extra funds for the agencies until the pipeline is built when even far more people will use the area. 4:31:09 PM JOE CONNORS, sportfishing lodge owner, Sterling, Alaska, supported HB 137 as well as including the sockeye salmon stamp language. He said he had lived there for 45 years, and both residents and non-residents will help defray the cost of providing for this fishery. 4:32:15 PM DOUG VINCENT-LANG, representing himself, Anchorage, said he supported an adequately funded department, but he had several concerns with HB 137. First is the lack of accountability towards ensuring that the increased fees would actually benefit the department. Also, there has been no significant outreach to representative user groups to determine priorities and how the increased revenues would be spent to benefit fishers, hunters, and trappers. For this reason he suggested not moving the bill now and asking the department to develop a detailed five-year spending plan in consultation with the users who will be paying the increased fees. He also suggested that the committee closely examine what an adequately-funded department is, in light of the department's reluctance to defend its right to manage federal lands. They are willing to cede authority to over two-thirds of the state, and one has to question whether increased revenues are really needed. This failure to defend the state's right to manage is highlighted by the state's failure to oppose the US Fish and Wildlife Service regulations at the recent Anchorage hearing, despite being in attendance. MR. VINCENT-LANG also requested lower fee increases for the general resident and non-resident hunting license, replacing that with a larger intensive management surcharge that can only be used to fund projects approved by Board of Game under the state's intensive management statute. He said the fee should be $15 for residents and $45 for non-residents. If surcharge fees are only used for intensive management, he suggested the creation of a subaccount within the fish and game fund modeled after the sportfish hatchery surcharge, so that deposited surcharge fees only be used to fund intensive management as set out under AS 16.05.255(e). These projects have a proven track record in benefiting hunters. MR. VINCENT-LANG also suggested recommending to the Finance Committee that they use CIP budgets to direct spending of increased revenues generated from these funds rather than increase the operating budget where the agency has too much discretion and flexibility to adjust priorities and expenditures within broad missions and goals, some of which are not supported by the hunting community. Finally, he related that he was closely involved with establishing the sport fish hatchery surcharge and both the department and the bill's sponsor, Senator Seekins, made a commitment to anglers and user groups that this surcharge would go away when the bonds are paid off. "I made that commitment," he said. To keep this surcharge and remove the language dedicating the collected fees to hatchery bond repayment breaks a promise and a commitment made to anglers. If the legislature wishes to turn the surcharge into a general license fee, they should make it clear that this is their intention and do so after the surcharge and hatcheries are paid off. Otherwise future bond surcharges will be viewed with skepticism, and rightfully so. In closing, Mr. Vincent-Lang said he supported an adequately- funded department, but he urged an assessment of what is adequate to provide greater accountability for moving this bill forward, especially in terms of the intensive management surcharge. 4:35:26 PM NANCY HILLSTRAND, representing herself, Kachemak Bay, Alaska, said she owns a fish processing business on the Homer Spit. Her customers are fishermen, wildlife watchers, photographers, and commercial photographers. She lives in the Bush and commutes by boat, and she collects firearms, so she contributes to the Pitman Robertson and the Dingle Johnson funding to the state. She would like to purchase a license that reflects her utilization of wildlife, and presently she is not represented or able to contribute to ADF&G directly. MS. HILLSTRAND said she sent the committee a paper entitled "How to Prospect For A New ADF&G Funding Mechanism," saying the 2015 Tourism, Fishing, and Mining Report from the Institute of Social and Economic Research (ISER) indicated that tourism in Alaska has a return for the maximum benefit of its people. The economic importance of Alaska's wildlife, which was published by ADF&G in 2014, further clarifies that maximum use consistent with public interest. Their report indicated that $1.2 billion was spent by non-residents to observe wildlife, and the hunting non-residents spent only $150 million, and that money is significant. For the fiscal health of Alaska, it is important to recognize this additional $1 billion spent by wildlife viewers, along with $230 million in revenue to the government and $976 million in labor income from this viewing constituency. MS. HILLSTRAND said she supported adding a $5 license fee for both residents and non-residents on top of the $20 emblem and a mandatory license for photographers: $10 for resident commercial viewing guides and commercial photographers and $20 for non- resident commercial guides or commercial photographers. In closing, she said she is hoping they can do something to add a larger constituency to pay into the fish and game fund, because obviously with close to 700,000 people utilizing our wildlife, some means of tying them into some type of payment should be included for management of fish and game. For example, there are 900,000 cruise ship people, most of whom want to see wildlife, and if each passenger paid $5 included in the cruise ship taxes, that would bring in an additional $4.5 million. 4:39:00 PM RICHARD BISHOP, representing himself, Fairbanks, said he appreciated everyone's efforts in bringing this to the attention of the legislature and the public. He agreed that trapping be included as part of the North American Conservation Model. MR. BISHOP said he supports, in particular, the intention behind the surcharge, the Chitina permit fee, and the increases in resident licenses and tag fees. He also supports the higher age criteria for permanent licenses. The revision of the low income license standard seems to be appropriate. He said he is not particularly concerned with prior non-resident license and tag fees negatively affecting the sales or the amount of income, because Alaska will continue to draw non-resident hunters. CHAIR GIESSEL thanked him for his testimony and updated him that today the new Version V was introduced, and he was looking at Version X, which was the version right before it. 4:42:10 PM THOR STACEY, lobbyist, Alaska Professional Hunters Association (APHA), Fairbanks, said he very much supported a well-funded department and Version V of the bill. He said the professional hunters have a big stake in the game regarding sustainability of the wildlife populations and access to those resources. The increase of 100 percent for black and grizzly bear fees are pretty significant, he noted, and he wanted to see the increases be consistent from species to species. 4:43:17 PM EDDIE GRASSER, lobbyist, Safari Club International, Alaska Chapter, Juneau, Alaska, supported SCS CSHB 137( ), version \V. He said they had worked with the Territorial Sportsmen, the Alaska Outdoor Council, and APHA to support legislation to adequately fund the department, and they believe version V goes a long way towards that. One thing his group insists upon, since they didn't get tag fees, is that there be an IM surcharge and their support of the bill is tied to that. Along with Mr. Tinker, they also believe that AS 16.05.100 needs to be amended to set up a separate account for the money to go into, similar to the sportfish hatchery section. SENATOR STOLTZE said that some of his constituents support adjusting the license fees but have an inherent mistrust of the department's philosophical directions on a number of issues and think there should be some quid pro quos about changing some of the environmental leaning versus Alaska's hunting community. MR. GRASSER responded that the reason for supporting the surcharge has nothing to do with what he just said. Of greater concern is the fact that administrations come and go, and some in the room remember the 90s when management for hunting within the structure of the department "kind of went down the tubes." So they feel strongly that the IM surcharge helps alleviate those concerns. It's imperative that is in the bill for them to support it. 4:46:30 PM RON SOMERVILLE, lobbyist, Territorial Sportsmen, Juneau, said his group appreciates all the effort put into this bill. Their whole approach, as explained by Mr. Grasser, has been to produce enough money not only to make up for the 23 years since there has been an increase in wildlife fees, but also looking 10 or 15 years ahead when the state is not going to get any more increases, especially if the fiscal situation remains the same. He said that one of the really important things from the standpoint of this coalition is the IM sunset provision because of the distrust around it. The sunset does one thing: it allows residents to decide to continue it or not if the money is not being used appropriately. MR. SOMERVILLE said he always tries to explain to people that they have the authority to "harass you people," that the budget has an oversight, and that mechanisms exist to make sure that those distrusts are addressed. He said they are happy with the bill; it will provide adequate funds to carry the department for a while and do the things that are expected. He reminded people that inflation since 1993 is 65 percent, and they have proposed a license increase for residents of only 60 percent. So, it's still a good deal. 4:49:24 PM DOUG LARSON, Territorial Sportsmen, Inc. (TSI), Juneau, Alaska, thanked the sponsor for bringing this issue forward and the committee and staff for all their hard work. Their efforts have coalesced and that speaks to the legitimacy and need for this measure. No tag fees are included in these changes and he doesn't advocate for that at this point, but since there aren't any, when one looks at what Alaskans pay ($40 license fee in V), they can kill four and in some places, six deer a year, one moose, a sheep, a goat, several black bear (in some parts of the state), and a brown bear-a pretty amazing cadre of species for $40. "It's a steal." By comparison, in other states the license fee, itself, would be substantially more than $40. But then on top of that, for each of those deer they pay another fee, maybe $50-100 for one deer, and more for a moose and a bear. All those fees are added in other states. CHAIR GIESSEL said the Territorial Sportsmen is an intriguing name because she and Senator Coghill call themselves Territorial kids, having been born here before statehood, and asked if that's where the title came from. MR. LARSON answered yes; it came from the territorial days. He also is a Territorial child. CHAIR GIESSEL, finding no further comments, closed public testimony on HB 137 and said the committee would continue to accept written testimony. She asked for amendments to come to her office by tomorrow at 5 p.m. and held HB 137 in committee. SENATOR STOLTZE said he wanted to know how the family unit being a household member or several members of households that are fishing together on a boat is interpreted and enforced in the personal use fishery. CHAIR GIESSEL agreed that that might need further definition in the bill, and she also wanted to see a budget plan for the use of the increased fees. 4:56:12 PM CHAIR GIESSEL adjourned the Senate Resources Committee meeting at 4:56 p.m.