JOINT SENATE AND HOUSE RESOURCES COMMITTEE  March 6, 2000 3:15 p.m.   SENATE MEMBERS PRESENT    Senator Rick Halford, Chairman Senator Robin Taylor, Vice Chairman Senator Pete Kelly Senator Jerry Mackie Senator Lyda Green Senator Sean Parnell Senator Georgianna Lincoln    MEMBERS ABSENT    All members present   HOUSE MEMBERS PRESENT    Representative Beverly Masek, Co-Chair Representative John Cowdery Representative John Harris Representative Carl Morgan Representative Jim Whitaker    HOUSE MEMBERS ABSENT    Representative Bill Hudson, Co-Chair Representative Reggie Joule Representative Mary Kapsner Representative Ramona Barnes    OTHER MEMBERS PRESENT    Representative Scott Ogan   COMMITTEE CALENDAR    Confirmation Hearing: Alaska Board of Game - Mr. Leo Keeler, Fairbanks, AK   SENATE BILL NO. 267 "An Act relating to management of game."   -MOVED CSSB 267(RES) OUT OF COMMITTEE   PREVIOUS SENATE COMMITTEE ACTION    SB 267 - No previous action to be considered. WITNESS REGISTER    Mr. Wayne Regelin, Director Division of Wildlife Conservation Alaska Department of Fish and Game P.O. Box 25526 Juneau, AK 99802-5526 POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on SB 267.    ACTION NARRATIVE    TAPE 00-08, SIDE A  Number 001   CHAIRMAN HALFORD called the Joint Senate and House Resources Committee meeting to order at 3:15 p.m. and said the first order of business is the confirmation of Mr. Leo Keeler to the Board of Game. He said committee members should have copies of Mr. Keeler's letter to the Governor, as well as a letter dated February 24. MR. LEO KEELER gave the following testimony via teleconference from Fairbanks. His letter to the Governor contains his background of 50 years. He has lived in Alaska since 1981 and has hunted most of his life. He has a background in forestry and public service and has been involved in economic assistance programs for communities. As a real estate specialist, he deals with a lot of legal issues surrounding land conveyances. He has a good understanding of the legal process and how to work with the public in that regard. He worked with the guide industry and the public on the Owsichek decision and is trying to rebuild a structure to retain guiding as a viable industry - a critical element of wildlife management in Alaska. As he developed his wildlife photography business, he became more aware of the public's desire to see and view wildlife and the public's interest in management. He is offering his skills to help the Board reach sound decisions that are supported by the public. As a Board member, he would also try to get everyone to work together for the same purposes. In this light, he has studied the situation in McGrath and come up with some ideas that he'd like to present to get out of the deadlock. CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked him to proceed. MR. KEELER said he thinks the Governor believes the lack of support is partially based on the fact that some biologists are saying they don't know if wolves are the issue and that the whole plan is not being addressed. Most biologists agree that bears are a problem, but the Governor has taken lethal control of bears off of the table. The Arizona Department of Fish and Game holds a bison hunt in which department personnel assist the hunters. The way to focus on removing some bears and to deal with the wolf issue in Alaska would be to establish something similar to a Governor's permit in which two bear tags would be issued. A non-resident hunter could participate in a bid process to target both a specific bear that was taking moose calves and a trophy bear. Local people could be hired to guide since they know more about the area and are more likely to know what is going on. In addition, local people might have time to identify the problem bears. He thought the current plan speaks to hiring locals to do the control using helicopters, but he didn't know if that would be possible or feasible. He has talked to people in Fairbanks about the difficulties of fixed wing wolf shoots. The potential for establishing Tier II for an emergency in the McGrath area exists. The last element of a plan needed for public support is a monitoring program of moose, caribou, wolf, and bear populations to let the public know how effective the department is and what's going on. The Governor's permit auction would generate a lot of funds, but funding from the legislature might also be necessary. Finally, if people can agree on the same principles, they could get the Governor to remove the burden on the Board to make the decision in a specified sequence. CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked Mr. Keeler if he is a federal employee working in the Chugach National Forest. MR. KEELER answered yes, he is the real estate specialist. He deals with land conveyances to both the State and Native corporations with a primary emphasis on maintaining public uses. He also deals with permitting issues for power lines, pipelines and major roadways. CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked if he is an advocate of a proposal before the Board dealing with the Toklat wolf pack. Number 700 MR. KEELER acknowledged that he made such a proposal to the Board. However, he has been shown to have a conflict of interest and will not address that issue. CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked if he is still an advocate for that issue as a private citizen. MR. KEELER said he hadn't testified, but he supports the idea. He has asked questions of the Board members to hopefully bring light to the issue. CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked if he is surprised that the Park Service actually said a proposal was unnecessary and that the Park additions created a buffer zone around the original park. MR. KEELER responded that he was not surprised that the Park Service said it was unnecessary from a biological standpoint. The Park Service looks at a total population scenario. He has tried to address social management and recreational benefits to the people with the Park Service in the past, but the Park Service says that is not its mandate; it mandate is to preserve populations and habitats. When questioned further, the Park Service supported the idea and recognized the social values of what was going on. It definitely fears giving the appearance that the federal government is suggesting actions to the state. CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked what he would consider a measure of public support for wolf reduction in the McGrath area or the Upper Nilchina Basin. MR. KEELER said he thought public support has already been demonstrated by members of the hunting and trapping community who are coming to the Board. He has wrestled quite a bit with how to get other people to support that. When he talked to Joel Bennett about it, he came back to the original issue of the aerial hunting initiative that he and other folks worked with. Their concern is that it doesn't display itself as a biological emergency; there is the question of defiance because it only deals with wolves and doesn't address the bears. Mr. Bennett questioned how everything would follow through. MR. KEELER said that was part of what led him to the summary he presented earlier. He needs to bring in more of the information to demonstrate the public's support of that. He would make that known through the papers, hopefully through the department that the [indisc.] for a more holistic plan and ask people to write in. CHAIRMAN HALFORD said it seemed that at the McGrath meetings, the public support was absolutely overwhelming from the people who live there, know the problem, and are dependent on the resource. He didn't know how they could get any higher level of public support for some kind of predator control action in Unit 19 than they have right now. MR. KEELER agreed and said that he thought the public was still trying to focus on the total issue of wolf control rather than allowing ADF&G to address the specific elements. MR. KEELER said, "I don't think you're ever going to have anybody that totally supported state laws - it's almost impossible to get the public to step up to. But, if we can start saying this is how we're doing it in this area, this is why, here is our plan, here is how we're dealing with quality issues, with bears, with the governor's type permit, going to Tier II to assure that we're focused on benefiting the community, then I think the people are going to have a hard time saying they don't support doing something that is that focused for that specific purpose, and especially if the legislature follows through with the funding that's needed to make sure it happens and the community does get the benefit." Number 990 SENATOR TAYLOR asked Mr. Keeler if, once appointed, he will need to follow the political agenda of this governor or whether he will take his responsibilities from the Alaska Constitution. MR. KEELER replied that he follows the Constitution. He thought the Governor might be upset with some of the items the Board would take up but the Governor has the option of not reappointing members. He said the Board should focus on serving the people. SENATOR TAYLOR asked what Mr. Keeler would do if the Governor told him that he could only make decisions as a Board member based on standards the Governor had set for his political agenda, one being broad based public support, and that the Governor would decide what that is, not the Board. He also asked what Mr. Keeler would do if the Governor asked him to vote against any lethal actions regarding wolves. MR. KEELER responded that, depending on the situation, he would make his decision not on what the Governor wants, but on what would serve the public best. He would vote by his interpretation of public support, not the Governor's. SENATOR TAYLOR asked if he supports the sustained yield principle incorporated in our Constitution. MR. KEELER answered yes, he does. He said he honestly believes that consumptive use of the wildlife resource in most areas should be the highest priority and we should focus on getting the resource to the capacity the habitat can carry without jeopardizing a major die-off, which would cause greater problems than it solves. SENATOR TAYLOR asked if he thought they are facing that problem now in the McGrath and Cantwell areas and others. He noted the moose population has fallen way below a sustained yield level. MR. KEELER said he believes that problem is in the McGrath and Cantwell areas, as well as in a lot of areas of the State and it is growing. However, a lack of information on the capacities of the areas appears to exist. He hopes the biologists have the information needed to make those determinations and, if not, they be funded to get it and get it soon. Number 1121 SENATOR PETE KELLY asked Mr. Keeler if he believes he needs to have public support to make his decisions on the Board of Game. MR. KEELER replied yes, he does. SENATOR KELLY asked what statutory or constitutional reference he could cite that says the job of Board of Game members is to measure the public will. MR. KEELER replied there is none but, as a member who represents the public, he should try to make some determination of what the public wants done. SENATOR KELLY said he thought Mr. Keeler was looking at a broader elected position rather than an appointed board position. He asked Mr. Keeler if he believes McGrath needs to be designated as a Tier II area before wolf control is implemented. MR. KEELER replied he does. SENATOR KELLY asked if they should wait until they get to Tier II. MR. KEELER replied no, he didn't think so, but to demonstrate to the public that all of the issues they are concerned about are being dealt with, Tier II should be established as part of the plan. SENATOR KELLY asked if before they could do wolf control, they would be in Tier II. MR. KEELER answered yes, if the public wanted him to. SENATOR KELLY asked him to explain the Governor's permit concept. MR. KEELER explained that currently a Governor's permit is issued for sheep hunting. The permit is intended to raise funds to help manage the dall sheep population. Other states have done the same thing. In the Arizona bison hunt, state fish and game personnel assist hunters to make sure they take the bison the state wants removed. In Alaska, that could be changed so that a resident hunter from the community ADF&G is trying to help would be put on staff. Then, a permit would be issued for a hunter during the spring to take two bears, the first being a bear that has been identified as taking moose calves. That could be accomplished before the hunter is taken out to take a trophy bear. In the process you may get one bear or two. He likes the concept of having an expert from the area assist a hunter to help support the program. SENATOR KELLY asked if he supports wolf control in the McGrath area. MR. KEELER replied yes, he does. SENATOR KELLY asked how he would describe wolf control. MR. KEELER responded that he hoped wolf control would be done by hiring local people to work directly under the biologists. He thought using helicopters would improve the program because he heard from people who flew fixed wing aircraft that they just couldn't get things right to do the harvest. One man said it took him five days to get two wolves; however, had he used a helicopter, he could have taken 10 out of 14. SENATOR KELLY asked if he disagrees that there is broad public support for the McGrath area. MR. KEELER responded that he doesn't disagree at this time. There is broad support in McGrath. The public needs to be told that all of the issues, including the bear problems, are being dealt with and that the area is classified as Tier II. Then you need to determine what kind of support you have. SENATOR KELLY said the Governor doesn't think there is support there and asked Mr. Keeler what he would do if there wasn't the support. MR. KEELER said he would find time to find out why and what it would take to build it. SENATOR KELLY asked how long that would take. MR. KEELER said he didn't know; it would depend on what the findings are. SENATOR KELLY asked if Mr. Keeler would need more studies. MR. KEELER responded that they would need more contact with the public, not necessarily more studies. SENATOR KELLY asked if he had the information that suggested that wolf control was necessary there and the public disagreed, and they were running out of time in McGrath, whether Mr. Keeler thinks they should spend another winter building this nebulous public support. MR. KEELER said he didn't know the situation right now. He tried to work with Commissioner Rue when he was up there to see what it would take to get a commitment that something would happen other than future studies. The Commissioner affirmed that something would happen on the Toklat and that he would guarantee that both the funding and the personnel would be assigned. Mr. Keeler asked if that could be done before this calving season and the Commissioner answered that he didn't think there was time. SENATOR KELLY asked what will happen if all is said and done and there still isn't public support. MR. KEELER said he thought the Board would make the best decision it could and he hoped that by going through the public process, the Board could make a decision that is in the best interest of the people of McGrath. SENATOR KELLY asked what his, not the Board's, decision would be if there was no public support for lethal wolf control in McGrath. MR. KEELER answered if Tier II is in place, if something is done along the line of the Governor's permit to address bears, and if a monitoring plan is set up so you could total the effectiveness of what they are doing, he would do it. SENATOR KELLY asked, if those things weren't present and the moose population went from somewhere in the neighborhood of 5,000 down to around 1,000, whether that would be enough. MR. KEELER replied that he gets different numbers from different people. One of his biggest concerns is why this area hasn't been classified as Tier II. SENATOR KELLY asked Mr. Keeler for an answer. MR. KEELER said at a minimum, he would have to have the area classified as Tier II to say yes to wolf control. CHAIRMAN HALFORD stated that Mr. Keeler needs to know that there is almost no harvest by non-local people in that particular area; most of the non-area harvest is in the high country. The locals hunt the rivers in 19D where the problem is. MR. KEELER responded that there should be no problem going to Tier II. CHAIRMAN HALFORD replied that he thought the people thought it is unnecessary because that's who is harvesting it anyway. Number 1478 SENATOR MACKIE said the Board adopted an emergency wolf control plan for the McGrath area and asked Mr. Keeler if he supported it. MR. KEELER answered that he supported most of it. He would recommend more modifications so that it had more public support. SENATOR MACKIE asked if he agreed a good public hearing process occurred and that the people in that particular region know best in terms of the numbers. He asked if Mr. Keeler believes the Board made the decision with adequate information and an adequate public hearing process. MR. KEELER replied he believes the Board had the information to justify the decision it made, but he didn't think it had a full and adequate public process. He has been hearing at this meeting of the different gatherings and reports that were done and that local people came in and disagreed with those reports so he suspects the amount of public involvement is suspect. SENATOR MACKIE asked if he agrees that, as a member of the Board, it would be his responsibility to look at the biological data and make decisions based on what is happening with the herds and with the people who are using those resources. He pointed out it's extremely difficult a lot of times to build public support for tough decisions. MR. KEELER replied yes, he does. But, with the data before him and with the high potential for bear predation being the biggest problem, he questions why the Board is only dealing with wolves and not all of the predators. SENATOR MACKIE asked if he was seated on the Board when the management plan came before it for a vote, whether he would have supported it. MR. KEELER answered that he doesn't know all of the information that was brought to Board members. SENATOR MACKIE asked what part of it that the Governor rejected Mr. Keeler agrees with. MR. KEELER replied that he didn't have any explanation of what the Governor was looking at and why he rejected it; just that he had. SENATOR MACKIE asked if Mr. Keeler said he supported most of the plan, except for the parts the Governor rejected. MR. KEELER said that was not right. SENATOR MACKIE said he misunderstood him. MR. KEELER said he supports the overall concept of what they are doing. Wolf control is needed, but it's not a stand alone issue. SENATOR MACKIE asked Mr. Keeler what part of the plan he disagrees with. MR. KEELER said he does not support fixed wing harvesting. He has not dealt with that specific plan. He read it quickly. It looked like the concept was good but the public would not support fixed wing harvesting. SENATOR MACKIE asked if they would support harvesting with helicopters. MR. KEELER replied that's where he got the helicopter idea. Number 1650 SENATOR LINCOLN said in his letter to the Governor of February 24th he talks about efforts to protect the Toklat wolves when they leave the Denali National Park. She asked if he is aware that the folks who have lived in that area for many generations actually trap those wolves. She wanted to know what he thought about the local folks being able to utilize the wolves for an income. MR. KEELER replied that the Alaska Wildlife Alliance has offered to pay [trappers for] the normal harvest of the wolves in the area. A study is ongoing to show the breaking strength, etc., needed to allow a wolf to be released and yet allow a lynx or wolverine to be caught in the trap. He hoped that a combination between the two could be worked out so that there is no economic loss or loss of opportunity to trap anything except wolves. SENATOR LINCOLN noted that Mr. Keeler was an ADF&G Advisory Committee member in Cordova in 1985 and asked what support he had while he was there and why he served only one year. MR. KEELER replied that he served only one year because he moved out of Cordova. Cordova is a small town; board members primarily represented fishing interests. He was not doing professional photography at the time but he was hunting in the area. He had expressed to different people his concern that he could no longer go out into different bays and have a secluded hunt and that he would like to be involved in the advisory committee. He went through the nomination process and members of the board voted him in. SENATOR LINCOLN asked if he believes he would have support from the Cordova Fish and Game folks that have been involved in the past. MR. KEELER said he couldn't say that; that was 15 years ago and a lot has changed in Cordova. People may not currently agree with his views. SENATOR LINCOLN asked if they wouldn't agree with his views as a photographer of wildlife. MR. KEELER answered yes. He said he still has a lot of friends down there and they are wishing him luck with this process but as far as the make-up of the current advisory committee, he does not know. SENATOR LINCOLN asked, when Mr. Keeler referred to full and adequate public support regarding the whole McGrath area and beyond, who the "public" is in his mind. MR. KEELER replied the citizens of Alaska on the major issue of whether wolf control should occur and what standards should be set to do it. SENATOR LINCOLN asked if it wouldn't necessarily be the people who reside in that area, because close to 100 percent of the local people support predator control in the area. She asked whether he would weigh the public's interest from the urban areas more than he would from the bush communities - those who are affected, because they comprise a smaller population. MR. KEELER replied that the bush communities must have the highest consideration. It affects their lifestyles and economics so their comments must carry more weight. SENATOR LINCOLN said she thought it is safe to say that people in the Anchorage area would not support a predator control program, but those out in the bush areas do. She asked if he would weigh more heavily the opinions of the public using those resources. MR. KEELER replied yes, he would. SENATOR LINCOLN asked even before a Tier II was established. MR. KEELER replied that he hoped a Tier II would be something that is utilized to offset the concerns and challenges that may come from those who do not agree with wolf control. Tier II would show that the situation is an emergency and of enough concern that Tier II was established to assure maximum benefit to rural communities. SENATOR LINCOLN noted that Mr. Keeler talked about biologists making the determination. She asked how much credence should be given to the opinions of the local people who have been there for many generations and believe that the wolf packs are causing more damage than the bears - especially since bears den during the winter and the wolf packs are still doing their kills. MR. KEELER replied that he put a lot of credence into what the local people are saying. He tries to work with what they see and with what the biologists see to develop a plan that deals with all issues. The biologists may have radio collared bears in the spring to study calving, for instance. One bear was known to take an adult moose every two weeks. He thought there are different levels of information but that the local people need to be involved. SENATOR LINCOLN asked when he was talking about helicopters and assisting hunters and hiring local folks, where he thought the money might come from. MR. KEELER replied he hopes a lot of it would come from the Governor's permit that he mentioned earlier. It might also be proper to use some of the license and tag fees. If that's not enough, he hopes the legislature, through the general community assistance program, would direct funds for management. Number 1993 REPRESENTATIVE MORGAN said the McGrath area situation hit the news in 1996, but the predator problem existed before that. At that time the Governor promised he would do something for the people in that area. The people of that area feel that before Tier II comes in, they would like to see predator control because they see that as the major contributor to the decline of the moose population. He asked if Mr. Keeler believes that. MR. KEELER replied he does, but he believes Tier II is part of the predator control process because man is one of the major predators. REPRESENTATIVE MORGAN noted that Mr. Keeler said that before he would look at predator control, he would look at bear predation, success of hunters, and natural causes, excluding moose dying of natural causes in district 19D East. He pointed out that all computer models have come concluded that in less than two years, the area is going to be out of moose because of wolf predation. He asked if Mr. Keeler has seen that study. MR. KEELER said he has not seen that study. REPRESENTATIVE MORGAN said that's what frustrates the people in the district. Every time someone comes in new, they have to educate the educated. MR. KEELER said he can understand that but he's been saying to people there that they have to break away from doing more studies and instead actually do the science - do the control efforts with the proper monitoring program. They need to address all the issues so they can determine what's going on. The Governor said the Academy of Sciences' report says we have not done a complete job in the past so no one can say for sure what will happen. REPRESENTATIVE MORGAN said he was hearing Mr. Keeler say that ADF&G and the Governor haven't really done their homework in the two or so studies they already did. MR. KEELER said he didn't have all the information, but he was going by the concerns expressed by other people. He understood that various studies were underway but, because of budget cuts, ADF&G had to shift its funding and could not continue so it does not have recent data which concerns him. REPRESENTATIVE MORGAN agreed that concerns him, too. He asked where he thought "the educated got all their information." MR. KEELER said he didn't understand the question. REPRESENTATIVE MORGAN repeated the question and asked whether they get their information themselves or whether they go to a village and talk to the people. MR. KEELER said he thought the biologists just did their own studies and do not involve the communities as much as they should. He assumed their population estimates were derived by biologists flying in patterns around the area. The problem is that ADF&G hasn't even been able to do the recent population surveys to get any information so the "educated" have a gap. REPRESENTATIVE MORGAN said he made his point of having to talk to local people. MR. KEELER said he hoped he could spend as much time as possible with local people if he were confirmed to the Board. REPRESENTATIVE MORGAN stated the second paragraph of Mr. Keeler's letter of application to the Governor emphasizes his hunting and trapping background. He asked Mr. Keeler if he ever depended on hunting and trapping as a primary means of support. MR. KEELER replied that when he was eight years old, his father handed him three shells and said he had to come back with two rabbits because they had company coming for dinner. He is familiar with depending on wildlife during times of financial stress. Number 2212 CHAIRMAN HALFORD said, regarding Mr. Keeler's statement that man is one of the major predators, he thought the people of McGrath would like to be one of the major predators but they find that the harvestable surplus left for human harvest is about five percent. He asked Mr. Keeler what percentage of the reproductive capacity of the animals should be available for human harvest. He asked whether we should set 90 percent for animal harvest and 10 percent for human harvest, or 90 to 10. He asked where one draws the line between viable populations. CHAIRMAN HALFORD said there are two schools of thought; one says you can reach equilibrium at the low side of the scale with substantial predator populations and the prey species held down from recovering for a twenty year cycle. The other says if you have good habitat, which most people believe you have in 19D East, that you can have the high side of the cycle. The difference in the McGrath area is that you might have a resident population of 4,000 to 5,000 moose versus a resident population of 1,000 moose. He asked where Mr. Keeler stands on maximum sustained yield, not sustained yield. Maximum sustained yield is the term that most people of Alaska would like to see our system work toward because the conflict is avoided if you have the resource. MR. KEELER said he spoke too quickly in the beginning. In managing the population, if one can determine the carrying capacity of the land for vegetation and everything else and take into consideration what might happen in a harsh winter, hopefully a biologist would be able to give a number of what the population should be. That would set the high population amount and account for acceptable risk. From that point the question becomes the demand and how the demand will be filled locals for subsistence, for residents who travel to the area, and for nonresidents who come in from out-of-state. CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked about the status of the current Arizona air- borne predator control program regarding coyotes. MR. KEELER said he didn't know; he hasn't been involved in game management down there for about 10 years. CHAIRMAN HALFORD added that according to his information, Arizona still maintains a very active air-borne predator control program with the wolf's smaller cousin. MR. KEELER said that could be, especially in the open desert country of Arizona. He didn't know if it would work in the timbered areas. TAPE 00-08, SIDE B  Number 585 CHAIRMAN HALFORD said Mr. Keeler mentioned something about the Commissioner's concern for the Toklat wolf pack and asked if the Commissioner said he would implement the McGrath predator control program if the Board took action to implement protection for the Toklat wolf pack. MR. KEELER replied he didn't say he would implement the plan. CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked if he said he would be more inclined to implement the plan. MR. KEELER said the feeling he got was that the Commissioner would be much more inclined to have the plan modified by a group of people so the Governor would see it as acceptable to the broader public. CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked if saving the 10 or 12 wolves that live in McKinley Park is the ransom for letting the people of McGrath eat moose. MR. KEELER responded that everyone uses different terms, but he understood that they are looking at Toklat as a demonstration of how Alaska deals with all aspects of wildlife management. Once that is demonstrated, the Governor would be more easily able to get full public support for the total program. Number 2322 SENATOR TAYLOR said he wondered what Mr. Keeler meant by "full public support" and asked him if had read our Constitution. MR. KEELER said he has. SENATOR TAYLOR asked if he realized it contains sustained yield as a mandate and that the elected legislature and him, as an appointed person, act as trustees on behalf of the people of Alaska to make certain that a sustained yield is maintained within our game and fish populations. MR. KEELER replied yes. SENATOR TAYLOR said he previously asked Mr. Keeler whether he would resign if the Governor told him to do something that was in disagreement with that and Mr. Keeler said he would. MR. KEELER replied that he didn't say he would resign. SENATOR TAYLOR clarified that Mr. Keeler said he'd go along with the Constitution as opposed going along with the Governor's political agenda at the time. MR. KEELER said that is correct. SENATOR TAYLOR asked if he had read the fish and game statutes, since he's a biologist, and was he somewhat familiar with them. MR. KEELER replied that he is not a biologist; he has a degree in forest land management. He noted he has looked through the ADF&G regulations. SENATOR TAYLOR asked him to cite the place where it says that before the Board can take an action, there must be broad based public support. MR. KEELER said he couldn't point to it in the regulations but, as a person representing the public, he needs to have support for what he is doing. He felt the Governor has hung everything on broad based support, not at him looking at the Constitution and regulations. SENATOR TAYLOR said what he's really saying is that the Governor came up with the words, "broad based public support" and that Mr. Keeler is not going to act on anything on this Board that the Governor doesn't decide equates with broad based public support - even though that may be contrary to our statutes, our rules and regulations, and our Constitution. MR. KEELER said that isn't correct. SENATOR TAYLOR asked how he explains the dichotomy that he holds up as a standard that must be met before he'll pass rules and regulations through the Board of Game - a standard that is not in our Constitution or statutes or regulations, but is only some vague concept the Governor has given him. He asked how that equates with his duty as a steward of the resources and as a public official if appointed. MR. KEELER responded, "The Governor set his standards for what he determines as public support and beneficial uses of the resource. The beneficial uses of the resource is one of the keys and the maximum benefit of the resource is for its people - it deals with all people, not specific groups. So there are different ways you can try and look at things and vote different positions. I look it that the resources are for conservation purposes and for the maximum benefit of its people which includes everyone. There needs to be support from the people on how the resources are used." SENATOR TAYLOR informed him that this legislature appropriated $800,000 for intense game management. The Governor chose to spend it not on intense management, but on wolf studies. He didn't know where Mr. Keeler got the information that the legislature had somehow reduced ADF&G's budget and it was unable to do surveys on wolves for intensive game management. MR. KEELER said for the last 10 years different ADF&G staff have been commenting about how their budget has been constantly cut. He's not sure who's cutting it, but the legislature has the most control. SENATOR TAYLOR suggested that they didn't cut their budget, but gave them an $800,000 increase in that area. Unfortunately, the Governor and Commissioner chose not to spend it the way the legislature told them to spend it, which would have generated the information that he needs to have today to make decisions. MR. KEELER thanked him for the information. He asked if ADF&G was limited to using money for intensive management to do these studies or whether they should be trying to get ahead of the curve before getting into intensive management. SENATOR TAYLOR said they never used any of it for intensive management; they used all of it for studies. Number 2065 SENATOR PETE KELLY asked, if the carrying capacity of an area was 4,000 to 6,000 moose, such as in McGrath, but only 1,000 moose were left so Tier II and wolf control were applied, and the population of moose increased to 2,500 - 3,000 and then hunters came in from outside of that area and the population dropped again, whether wolf control could be done at that point or whether they would have to have Tier II again. MR. KEELER answered that he hoped things would change enough during the process so that you don't have to go to a wolf control measure. He hoped they could come up with another system. He hoped enough information would be gained to know that the wolf population was doing and possibly look at drawing permit hunters up to get more information about what the human uses were before going to Tier II. Hopefully there would be enough information to avoid the Tier II. CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked if he thought there could be a drawing system where you have a customary and traditional subsistence use without being in Tier II. MR. KEELER replied that he didn't know how that would be designed; that would be up to the crafters of the process. CHAIRMAN HALFORD said he thought you couldn't limit the subsistence harvest by drawing; you have to go to Tier II before you get there or it just doesn't work. MR. KEELER replied that was his assumption. Number 1930 SENATOR KELLY asked if a tourism boycott in the situation he just described would affect his decision. MR. KEELER replied no. SENATOR KELLY asked if he was very familiar with the intensive management statute. MR. KEELER replied that he isn't very familiar with it. Number 1900 CO-CHAIR MASEK said that Mr. Keeler made a statement in the Anchorage Daily News that Alaska's wildlife belongs to all Alaskans but that hunting and trapping seasons limit consumptive uses of wildlife to certain times of the year and that nonconsumptive uses are available all year long. She asked Mr. Keeler to explain his position that the Board of Game, previous to his appointment, did not manage wildlife for all Alaskans. MR. KEELER answered that there have been proposals before the Board that they did not act on that represented some of the public. There have been issues that caused the public to step forward and use the initiative process for the game management which to him is an indication that the Board is not acting for all Alaskans. CO-CHAIR MASEK responded that didn't really answer the question. She said in Alaska there has never been a case where hunters and trappers have pushed to exclude other uses of wildlife to benefit themselves. Considering the millions of acres of land in Alaska that are already closed to hunting and that intensive management may not take place on over two-thirds of the lands in Alaska, why he believes persons, such as himself, who openly profess closing more areas to hunting and trapping, should be appointed to the Board. MR. KEELER answered he believes the watchable wildlife element, the nonconsumptive element, has been excluded from the Board process, either directly or indirectly. A friend of his in Fairbanks overheard a Board member say, "If you don't hunt, we don't want to talk to you." Actions the Board has displayed have caused the public to walk away from the process. It's extremely unusual to have members of the Sierra Club and similar organizations come forward. When people go to advisory meetings, the vote against anything that comes up that anyone interprets as a nonconsumptive use is usually 99 percent. Only one member who ever served on the Board did not hold a hunting license. People are looking at it as a very skewed system and he's representing them. Number 1780 CO-CHAIR MASEK stated that hunters do not try to impose their values on society by requiring everyone to become hunters. She asked why he believes the Board will be more fair by having persons such as himself appointed who wish to further restrict hunting and trapping, which she views as an open attack on the values of her people and many other Alaskans. MR. KEELER responded that hunters impose their values by not recognizing other people's desires and needs and they are trying to impose their values to prevent changes that are occurring nationwide. He emphasized that he totally supports the primary use of our wildlife resources be for rural residents for subsistence and then to maintain as much hunting opportunity as possible, but he repeated that a change in society is taking place. CO-CHAIR MASEK asked if he knew how many acres of land are restricted in Alaska right now. MR. KEELER replied that about 450 million acres of land are closed, the National Park System lands. All of the other federal lands - BLM and National Forest lands are open to full hunting. There's a couple of small refuges and sanctuaries, like Mc Neil, that are closed. CO-CHAIR MASEK said right now 75 millions acres are restricted in the national wildlife refuges; national parks have 54 million acres; BLM restricted areas equal 26 million acres; national forest conservation units contain 14 million acres; and the U.S. Department of Defense lands equal 2 million acres - a total of 171 million acres, about the size of the state of Texas. She asked his stand on any future legislation at the state or federal level to further restrict access to people who live in Alaska. She asked if he believes we already have enough acres set aside for protection. MR. KEELER replied that he thinks every case needs to be judged on its own merit. A prime example is the Toklat wolf pack where a world class situation has developed. Seventy or eighty percent of those home ranges are currently in a protected area of the Park Service. If the State steps forward and coordinates management with the Park Service to manage that world class resource, he would be in favor of closing the area to that one activity. He does not support general closures and [indisc] closures. CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked how he would react if the Fairbanks' group that is basically responsible for saving the Forty Mile caribou herd by putting up a private bounty of $300 per wolf offered the same bounty on the Toklat pack. MR. KEELER said he wouldn't be happy, but it's their personal choice. SENATOR GREEN asked if Mr. Keeler's November 2 letter on the Toklat wolf special had been referred to during the meeting. CHAIRMAN HALFORD said it had not. SENATOR GREEN said she had in her packet an article [by Mr. Keeler] soliciting support from people around the nation. Some of the language was derogatory. The article notes that Mr. Keeler seems to have had wolf karma over the last 10 years and he stated, "We have a legislature that seems to be led by predator control supporters. We hope to put pressure on our stalemated Alaskan political officials and have the interested land managers work together to protect these wolves within their entire home range. She said the officials currently insist on managing the Denali wolf population as a whole and ignore the international value of the watchable wildlife traits that are being passed on in this specific pack of wolves. We urge you to contact.... Our only enemy is apathy." The article then asks people to buy certain products. SENATOR GREEN said she noticed that Mr. Keeler works with the Chugach National Forest. She noted some people's livelihood is partly dependent on photography. She asked if he saw that as a conflict and whether his appointment to the Board would have a chilling effect on his ability to write these jaundiced letters. MR. KEELER responded that regarding his work with the Chugach National Forest, he would be taking leave without pay any time he dealt with any issues of the Board. Should any issues come up that he has been involved with, he would excuse himself from the debate, similar to what other Board members do. He recognizes that his opinion will be silenced because he is getting information from the public and he doesn't want to sway them with his personal opinions. SENATOR GREEN commented that she doesn't see how he could disconnect himself from the recent past. MR. KEELER replied that he would disconnect himself in the same way every Board member tries to disconnect from their issues. He didn't think any public servants are totally isolated in their opinions. Number 1383 REPRESENTATIVE WHITAKER asked, based upon Mr. Keeler's relative position to this legislature, whether he would characterize his confirmation as a long shot. MR. KEELER replied that he honestly didn't know and hadn't had a chance to present himself to most of the legislators. He thought the Governor appointed him because he felt the legislature would confirm him. REPRESENTATIVE WHITAKER said he appreciates the answer but does not agree. He would characterize Mr. Keeler's appointment as that of a political sacrificial lamb. He thought Mr. Keeler had been put forward to politicize game management rather than provide for continued adherence to good biology based upon the sustained yield principle which is a constitutional requirement. MR. KEELER responded that he doesn't agree with that. If they had monitored him to see how he is working things out with the Board, they would know that he has no fear of speaking up and trying to get other people to be comfortable enough to speak up and bring information that's needed to the Board. He thought the Governor saw him as a bridge to get away from some of the conflict going in wildlife management. SENATOR MACKIE said he looked at some of the letters written by Mr. Keeler and that in nearly all of them he referred to the Alaska Outdoor Council or its president as the "Freemen" of Alaska. Because he has one vote for people who serve on these kinds of boards, he hopes they would have an open mind. He asked, since Mr. Keeler has been extremely critical of that particular group, whether he could serve fairly and listen to people's testimony and consider that they have points of view they would like to offer in the public process. MR. KEELER replied he could and encouraged him to look at other letters written in that era for a better understanding of the pressure he was under from Mr. Arno of the Alaska Outdoor Council. He had been called different names and other things. He didn't think it was appropriate to have a group doing a personal attack. SENATOR MACKIE said he wondered if he harbored any hard feelings against the group for being called names in the past. MR. KEELER replied that he didn't have anything against the group; several members of the Council had testified that he worked with. Number 1110 SENATOR TAYLOR said his only concern is that when reviewing those letters, Mr. Keeler was upset when Senator Taylor introduced a bill requiring members serving on the Alaska Board of Game to at least have a hunting license. MR. KEELER agreed that upset him. SENATOR TAYLOR asked who pays for the Alaska Board of Game and the management. MR. KEELER replied the money comes from hunting licenses, tags and fees and the Pitman Robertson Act. He asked if the hunting license and tag fee is the fee for removing a public resource for a private purpose and whether it should also be used for the rest of the public's needs and desires. SENATOR TAYLOR replied that is what the game board members swear to do when they come on the job and he assumed that Mr. Keeler would do that same thing. MR. KEELER said he will, but it doesn't mean he needs to have a hunting license to do it. SENATOR TAYLOR said because he proposed such a law, Mr. Keeler labeled him an extremist. In another letter he said Nicole Evans could not get confirmed because she worked for an environmental organization and that Vic Van Ballenberg, an expert moose biologist with years of field experience in unit 13, would not commit himself to wolf control at any cost so he was not confirmed. Mr. Keeler then went on to say that any candidate who was not actively pro- hunting is blocked from confirmation by legislators who made recent confirmation hearings sound like the Spanish Inquisition. SENATOR TAYLOR asked him if he felt his asking him today if he understood the Constitution, the State laws and regulations was somehow subjecting him to a Spanish Inquisition. MR. KEELER replied no; he did not believe that Senator Taylor or any of the folks there today had grilled him to the degree that Nicole and Vic were. He was at their hearing and they were grilled an excessive amount. To the day there isn't a member on the Board who doesn't hold a hunting license. SENATOR TAYLOR asked him if he holds a hunting license. MR. KEELER said he does. SENATOR TAYLOR said someone like him could get on the Board then. MR. KEELER said he hoped he would, but he would wonder if Senator Taylor would vote for him if he didn't have one. SENATOR TAYLOR said he hadn't decided whether he was going to vote for him or not even though he has one. MR. KEELER said he was trying to be straightforward and hoped to have the opportunity to visit with them one on one to talk about issues. CHAIRMAN HALFORD thanked him for his testimony and announced that the Senate members of the joint committee would take an at-ease at 4:35 while the House members took whatever action they wished. Number 1000 [THE FOLLOWING IS A MEETING OF THE HOUSE RESOURCES COMMITTEE ONLY.]  CO-CHAIR MASEK asked the members of the House Resources Committee if they had questions. REPRESENTATIVE MORGAN moved to send a letter to the Speaker of the House recommending that Leo Keeler not be confirmed to the Board of Game. He asked for unanimous consent. There were no objections and it was so ordered. CO-CHAIR MASEK adjourned the House Resources Committee meeting at 4:40 p.m. [THE FOLLOWING IS A MEETING OF THE SENATE RESOURCES COMMITTEE  ONLY.]  CHAIRMAN HALFORD called the Senate Resources Committee meeting to order at 4:41 p.m. and announced that a motion was in order on the confirmation. SENATOR LINCOLN moved to forward the name of Mr. Keeler for confirmation to the Board of Game to the full body. SENATOR KELLY objected and moved to forward Mr. Keeler's name to the President of the Senate with a negative recommendation. CHAIRMAN HALFORD said it was easiest to deal with the first motion and the objection. SENATOR LINCOLN said she just wanted to forward it on, but when committee members sign the transmittal letter they have an opportunity to sign a "do" or "do not confirm" recommendation. CHAIRMAN HALFORD responded that if everyone signs "do not confirm," it will have the same effect of sending that recommendation. SENATOR LINCOLN explained her intent was to forward it without any recommendation. CHAIRMAN HALFORD said the question before the committee is whether to adopt Senator Lincoln's motion to forward the "standard neutral letter" to which an objection was raised. He asked those who object to raise their hands. SENATORS HALFORD, TAYLOR, and KELLY objected and the motion failed. SENATOR KELLY moved to send a negative recommendation to the President of the Senate regarding Mr. Keeler. There were no objections and it was so ordered. SB 267-MANAGEMENT OF GAME  CHAIRMAN HALFORD announced SB 267 to be up for consideration. SENATOR KELLY, sponsor, moved to adopt the CS to SB 267, version H Utermole (1LS1430\H 3/6/00). There were no objections and it was so ordered. SENATOR KELLY explained that his intention is that, in areas declared to be under intensive management, "land and shoot" will be considered an acceptable method of hunting. Also, in the statute under the "land and shoot" provision, ADF&G cannot appoint agents for landing and shooting or to do aerial shooting in areas where necessary. This will allow them to appoint agents for that task. Number 512 SENATOR KELLY asked Mr. Wayne Regelin, Director, Division of Wildlife Conservation, ADF&G, if he had reviewed the fiscal note. MR. REGELIN replied that he had briefly reviewed it since he arrived and thought that it would probably be changed significantly based upon the CS. SENATOR KELLY asked if the fiscal note in version A came from section 3 which is now gone. MR. REGELIN replied yes. SENATOR KELLY said he thought sections 2 and 3 didn't have any fiscal impact, but (c)(1) might and he asked him to comment. MR. REGELIN replied that he didn't think there would be a fiscal impact on ADF&G, but there would be a huge one on the Department of Law as it fights the separation of powers between the legislative and administrative branches of government. SENATOR MACKIE asked if he supports the bill. MR. REGELIN said he hadn't a chance to thoroughly read the CS but thought it looked like a vast improvement over the original bill. He explained that it looks like they are at an impasse again over wolf control. It's not the first time and it is hard to achieve a long term solution. MR. REGELIN asked to take a few minutes to discuss predator management in general and propose a solution to the impasse. Last year they heard that the Joint Committee in the House clearly illustrated the values of the many people who are dependent on wildlife and many other hunters who want to have more moose and caribou. They firmly believe wolf control is the answer and should be started immediately in many areas. He assured the committee that many people in Alaska have very different opinions. They don't want wolf control to occur because they have different values about wildlife. They feel just as passionately about this subject as the people they heard from in the last joint hearing. He always tells people that values aren't right or wrong, but they can be very different. One thing they can all agree on is that our wildlife in Alaska belongs to all Alaskans and that we should consider everyone's values in our wildlife programs. Most sides have legitimate concerns and legitimate uses. We have to be careful not to react on emotion and to make reasoned decisions that can be sustained over time. He has to smile when people tell him that wildlife management shouldn't be political and that all decisions should be made strictly on biology. Predator management rivals how we spend money in the Permanent Fund as the one issue where Alaskans have a strong opinion. When there is this much intense interest in how they manage a public resource, politics are going to be a big part of the picture. If decisions were made on biology only, we wouldn't need a Board of Game or need to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars supporting advisory committees. The legislature realized at Statehood that biology is only part of the equation and created the Boards of Fisheries and Game to meld the biology with human needs and desires into a management system. The Board of Game has a very difficult job, but overall it does a great job for us. In the past six years, its job has been made a whole lot harder because three statutes were passed that mandate decisions the Board must make in certain instances. The intensive management law is very complex to administer and causes untold problems for the Board of Game. He was glad to see the CS doesn't continue, through the statutes, to tell the Board how it should take action and he appreciated that. Part of the solution is that it's time to reexamine the entire intensive management law and make it more balanced and easier for the Board to use. He has heard from many people that the wildlife management system lacks balance. They feel that way because intensive management laws mandate that moose, caribou, sheep, and deer be managed intensively for human consumption nearly everywhere in Alaska. Recent changes in statute mandate that the Board determine that consumptive use is a preferred use and it can't reduce seasons or bag limits downward without triggering the intensive management law. TAPE 00-09, SIDE A  Number 001 MR. REGELIN continued. When you look at the big picture, people who aren't hunters believe our system lacks balance. The latest thing he has heard is that the system is broken. These people are Alaskans and we should listen to their concerns. We are fortunate in that the size of Alaska and the abundance and diversity of wildlife can provide this balance in our wildlife management programs so that all values can probably be met in most places in Alaska. Balance means providing areas in Alaska where intensive management for human consumption is not the primary management goal; it also means that wolf control should occur in areas where the goal is to keep predators at low or moderate levels to enhance prey populations so people can use them for food. He didn't think the solution to the problem is additional mandates to the Board or to the Commissioner. These measures have been tried several times and haven't worked. They don't do anything but polarize the issue. The solution is to demonstrate to all Alaskans that we have a biologically based and balanced wildlife management system. If we can demonstrate to the public that our goal recognizes diverse values and begin to make changes to reach this goal, we can begin to move toward a solution. We're not going to get agreement with the extremists on either end of the scale because they don't want to recognize the values of anybody else as being legitimate. However, if we go this way, we are going to have the support of a vast majority of Alaskans. He thought we needed to begin this process by sitting down together to consider revisions to our wildlife management statutes. We should form small groups of stakeholders to discuss the biology situation in McGrath and work with them to reach consensus on a management direction in this area. MR. REGELIN said they have had a lot of success working with this group in the past and he thought they could do it again so they could move ahead in the McGrath area. To forge lasting solutions, they have to include all the reasonable stakeholders in the debate and in the solution. Inclusion of the extremists won't be helpful because they won't compromise, but he is convinced that most Alaskans will. SENATOR KELLY asked him to comment on sections 2 and 3 and asked if it was a better bill by removing section 1. MR. REGELIN responded that he was worried section 1 creates conflict unnecessarily. He thought that aircraft and use of it have to be part of the solution in section 2. The way the bill is structured the practice of land and shoot would be allowed over a broad area of Alaska, because they are talking about any area the Board of Game has identified for intensive management. He said they might want to consider reducing that to areas where the Board of Game has authorized a predator control implementation plan. It might provide a lot less controversy for the bill. CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked what that meant. He said they authorized a predator program in McGrath and asked if they authorized it anywhere else. MR. REGELIN replied that presently it is authorized in McGrath, unit 20D around the Delta area, and the Forty Mile 20E area. The Board will also consider at its next meeting whether to add unit 13. CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked which additional areas are being authorized for intensive game management. MR. REGELIN replied ADF&G is going through that process now with the Board. He didn't have a map, but said it's almost all of interior Alaska. A few areas have been left out because of the way the statutes are structured. One village on the North Slope has petitioned to include a couple of areas on the North Slope. He thought Kodiak Island was listed to be managed intensively, but the Board decided it wasn't practical to do. In reality, there have been very few areas identified in Alaska where human harvest is an important element to the wildlife management program. He thought that was appropriate. SENATOR KELLY asked if the predator control program is done under emergency regulations and has a fairly short life span. MR. REGELIN answered no, they are authorized for five year periods (with current statutes) by the Board of Game. The only time the Board used emergency action was at the last meeting in McGrath because it took it up out of cycle. SENATOR KELLY asked if it was declared intensive management. MR. REGELIN replied yes. SENATOR KELLY asked if the problem is that by the time they are done with this process, McGrath might find itself left out. If the Governor can stack the Board like he wants to, they might not be able to get the Board to declare McGrath to be under a predator control program. If they change this to be under a predator control program, they might find that McGrath is sitting outside of the bubble and that's one of the areas where it simply has to be addressed. MR. REGELIN informed them when the Board took action in January, it adopted an emergency regulation that was converted to a regular long-term regulation that will take effect for five years. If the Board rescinds that action, it could create problems in the timing of the Board's cycle. It requires a full Board meeting and the law requires a public meeting in the area, etc. It could delay it for a year. In most places they know ahead of time what is coming up. SENATOR TAYLOR asked what difference the bill makes. MR. REGELIN explained that the bill makes land and shoot hunting a normal method of hunting in these areas. No permit would have to be issued. SENATOR TAYLOR commented that the people of Alaska could do it themselves instead of waiting around for them to do something they have been authorized to do for years but have refused to do. Number 655 SENATOR LINCOLN said she would like a side-by-side comparison to see what intensive management looked like versus predator management. She wants legislation so that McGrath, Alakaket, Chuathluk, and other areas that have already identified a decrease in the moose population and an increase in the wolf population as a serious problem to have a program that would be implemented immediately. She is concerned when the Governor of her party says wolf control will be implemented in the McGrath area if the legislature will take up the Toklat wolves and one other thing. Someone referred to it as a hostage situation. She objects to that type of management. Either we have a problem in these areas and we address them or we are held hostage. She wants a solution for the people who depend on that moose and caribou for food - and not a year down the line. That's her bottom line. MR. REGELIN responded that the way the bill is drafted, as soon as it goes into effect, land and shoot hunting would be a permitted activity as a method of hunting or trapping in the whole area she is talking about. The Board has completed the process of identifying populations for intensive management. This CS would do that. They have to realize that in much of Alaska around McGrath, land and shoot hunting is probably not going to be that effective because of the topography. SENATOR LINCOLN agreed with that and added that they aren't going to see a whole slaughter of wolves. If this bill does that by having the word "intensive management," she would sign it. They have waited so many years to have a solution and there just hasn't been one forthcoming from the Administration. CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked Mr. Dick Bishop, Alaska Outdoor Council, if he wanted to testify or move the bill. He indicated he wanted to move the bill. SENATOR TAYLOR moved to pass CSSB 267(RES) from committee with individual recommendations. There were no objections and it was so ordered. CHAIRMAN HALFORD adjourned the meeting at 5:00 p.m.