SENATE RESOURCES COMMITTEE April 23, 1999 3:10 P.M. MEMBERS PRESENT Senator Robin Taylor, Vice Chairman Senator Pete Kelly Senator Jerry Mackie Senator Lyda Green Senator Georgianna Lincoln MEMBERS ABSENT Senator Rick Halford, Chairman Senator Sean Parnell COMMITTEE CALENDAR CS FOR HOUSE JOINT RESOLUTION NO. 15(RES) Relating to support for the "American Land Sovereignty Protection Act" in the United States Congress. -MOVED CSHJR 15(RES) OUT OF COMMITTEE SENATE BILL NO. 142 "An Act relating to infestations and diseases of timber." -MOVED CSSB 142(RES) OUT OF COMMITTEE CS FOR SENATE BILL NO. 139(RES) "An Act relating to the labeling of farmed fish and fisheries products." -SCHEDULED BUT NOT HEARD PREVIOUS SENATE COMMITTEE ACTION HJR 15 - See Resources minutes dated 4/14/99 and 4/19/99. SB 142 - No previous action to record. SB 139 - See Resources Committee minutes dated 4/19/99. WITNESS REGISTER Ms. Myrna McGhie, Aide Representative Jeannette James State Capitol Bldg. Juneau, AK 99811-1182 POSITION STATEMENT: Staff for sponsor of HJR 15. Ms. Mel Krogseng, Aide Senator Robin Taylor State Capitol Bldg. Juneau, AK 99811-1182 POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on SB 139 and SB 142. Mr. Mark Hodgins, Aide Senator Jerry Ward State Capitol Bldg. Juneau, AK 99811-1182 POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on SB 142. Ms. Marty Wellbourn, Program Manager Forestry Program Division of Forestry Department of Natural Resources 3601 C St., 1034 Anchorage, AK 99503 POSITION STATEMENT: Opposed SB 142. Mr. Cliff Eames Alaska Center for the Environment 519 W 8th #201 Anchorage, Ak 99501 POSITION STATEMENT: Opposed SB 142. Mr. Erik Holland P.O. Box 73751 Fairbanks, AK 99707 POSITION STATEMENT: Opposed SB 142. Ms. Amy Marsh P.O. Box 81168 Fairbanks, AK 99708 POSITION STATEMENT: Opposed SB 142. Mr. Dave Lacey P.O. Box 81765 Fairbanks, AK 99708 POSITION STATEMENT: Opposed SB 142. Ms. Pam LaBolle, President Alaska State Chamber of Commerce 217 Second St. #201 Juneau, AK 99801 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SB 142. ACTION NARRATIVE TAPE 99-24, SIDE A Number 001 HJR 15-SUPPORT AMERICAN LAND SOVEREIGNTY ACT VICE CHAIRMAN TAYLOR called the Senate Resources Committee meeting to order at 3:10 p.m. and announced HJR 15 to be up for consideration. MS. MYRNA MCGHIE, Staff to Representative James, sponsor of HJR 15, said it supports Congressman Young's resolution to confirm that Congress approve any land designations to the World Heritage Sites and Biosphere Reserve. SENATOR KELLY asked what was the status of Congressman Young's bill. MS. MCGHIE answered that it was just introduced on the floor a couple of weeks ago and didn't know if it was in committee yet. This is a second try for it. Last year it went through Congress, but there wasn't time to get it through the Senate side. SENATOR GREEN moved to pass HJR 15 from committee with individual recommendations and zero fiscal notes. There were no objections and it was so ordered. SB 139-SEAFOOD LABELING VICE CHAIR TAYLOR announced SB 139 to be up for consideration and since he was prime sponsor, he asked his staff person, Ms. Mel Krogseng, to introduce it. MS. KROGSENG informed the committee of the CS which addresses several concerns brought up by the seafood industry in Alaska. The changes are that they have revised the title so there is not a requirement to label fish as "wild." It just requires labeling of farmed fish and farmed fisheries products. Additionally, there is an exemption for mariculture products in the State. The other significant change is that the requirement for labeling falls on the retailer who is actually selling the product to the consumer, whether it be a grocery store or a restaurant. The reason behind the bill is because of the ever increasing farming of fish in other states and areas of the world and the quality that is far inferior to the quality of our wild stocks in Alaska. MS. KROGSENG said she worked with Jerry McCune, UFA, and members of the mariculture industry and they support the bill. SENATOR MACKIE moved to adopt the CS to SB 139. There were no objections and it was so ordered. SENATOR MACKIE said he appreciated the industry's work on the "wild and natural" language, because ASMI did a significant study in different parts of the country and got people's ideas on different labelings and advertisements and things that would work for selling Alaska seafood products. One interesting thing they found was that the term "wild salmon" sets off a negative response, because people think that it must taste "gamey". He thought it was appropriate to make that change. SENATOR LINCOLN said she appreciated the work that had been done on this issue. MS. KROGSENG added that former legislator Dave Choquette suggested using the description of "ocean fed and free ranging." SENATOR MACKIE moved to pass CSSB 139 (RES) from committee with individual recommendations. SENATOR GREEN objected. VICE CHAIR TAYLOR asked for a roll call vote. SENATORS MACKIE, LINCOLN, KELLY, and TAYLOR voted yes; SENATOR GREEN voted no; and the bill moved from committee. SB 142-TIMBER THREATENED BY PESTS OR DISEASE VICE CHAIR TAYLOR announced SB 142 to be up for consideration and announced an at ease from 3:23 - 3:25 p.m. MS. KROGSENG explained that SB 142 amended statutes to require the commissioner of the Department of Natural Resources to implement salvage measures on state or municipal forest land when the following conditions exist: the timber is infested or diseased and thereby poses a significant threat to surrounding healthy timber or surrounding private property or the area is subjected to an environmental catastrophe thereby making the timber susceptible to infestation or disease. She said the original bill did not require it for the surrounding private property, but there is a CS labeled 763 D Luckhaupt 4/22/99. This change is on page 1, line 15. The Miller's Reach fire of 1997 caused over $40 million in damage and she asked Mr. Hodgins to present the rest of the bill since he introduced it last year. Number 187 SENATOR MACKIE moved to adopt the CS to SB 142. There were no objections and it was so ordered. MR. MARK HODGINS, Staff to Senator Ward, said that there is not much of an economic incentive to cut the spruce bark beetle infested trees. Right now the incentive is the health and safety issue that goes far beyond just idea of forest fires that could happen. The Kenai Peninsula has between a 70 and 80 percent mortality rate of trees with anything over eight inches in diameter. This infestation started 10 - 12 years ago. While nothing can be done to stop it, the amount of beetles, if we get warmer weather, that will continue to attack the smaller trees is simply staggering. A smaller tree has the mechanism to defend itself against the beetle unless it is attacked in large numbers. With the larger trees dead and gone, the beetles are forced to go to the smaller trees. If there is a fire, we would lose the smaller trees and the possibly lose human life. There is also the consideration for loss of habitat and he used the example of the scorched earth resulting from a 1947 fire in Kenai. That fire burned through the winter and had destroyed so much of the nutrients in the tundra that it is still impacted. MR. HODGINS said the moisture content of the timber that is now standing is down 40 - 60 percent from a commercial value. The State would not realize a profit in having a harvest there as it would cost $8 million and they would make about $2 million. He said that a fire would destroy growth around salmon streams and would cause erosion. He said it would be a good idea to force the commissioner of the Department of Natural Resources into going through with these timber sales. There is a provision in the bill allowing the commissioner to decide if a sale is totally uneconomical, he could declare an areas as not needing to be harvested. He said there is still the chance of some economic opportunities which means there would be a chance of some forms of reseeding. A fireman told him that you can tell how hot a fire is by looking at the "poles" that are left standing. If there is no debris on it, it was an extremely hot fire; a hot fire moves fast and creates quite a problem for the fire fighters. Spruce bark beetle "poles" have no material on them indicating that this is a much more dangerous fire to combat. In the past, the local wisdom has been to let the fires burn, but now people live there. Number 302 SENATOR KELLY said page 1 language "subject to environmental catastrophe" was almost undefinable and is language similar to what he used in his wolf control bill last year. General consensus from people in the industry was that language "was screaming for a lawsuit." He suggested "tightening up" the definition of environmental catastrophe. MR. HODGINS said the idea behind that is that they are not sure what kind of liability there is if you make a decision that affects private property next to you. If we do not contain an infestation on state land when we are notified and it goes on to private land, he wasn't sure if the liability could be the other way. Also, in the case of utility lines, if they do not make any attempt to harvest dead standing trees and the wind storm comes through and knocks out the power, someone is liable. SENATOR LINCOLN said she had received a lot of e-mails in opposition to this bill for various reasons - one being costs and the other being that the Department already has the ability to go in and take action. She said she was concerned with the language forcing the commissioner to declare an emergency, but once he declares it, then it's permissive for him to do any one of the five remedies, if he so chooses. She asked how you can force a commissioner to enter into an agreement with a private owner. MR. HODGINS responded that the frustration they have had in the past is that the infestation has spread destroying good timber that people would have like to selectively harvest. They want the commissioner to act, but they have tried to give him a lot of options. All the commissioner has to do in making an agreement with a private party is go forward with the agreement, but if the owner doesn't want to do it, there's no agreement. MS. MARTY WELLBOURN, Division of Forestry, opposed SB 142. It would not reduce the impact of the infestation and it would be very expensive to implement. DNR already has the authority to declare zones of infestation and can develop agreements with land owners. They can offer emergency sales and waive reforestation, so when it's not economically feasible for the private land owner to reforest, they don't have to do it. Agency actions cannot control the ability of the beetles to spread quickly. One of the major factors is a warm climate. Markets for timber are very weak; some of the sales they have offered have had no purchasers. Export markets look for green timber. It is also very expensive to administer timber sales and do reforestation. MS. WELLBOURN informed the committee that the current infestation is declining. In 1998, the acreage is about a quarter of what it was in 1996 and they expect the decline to continue. She also pointed out that none of the game management agencies have identified major impacts on wildlife from the beetles alone, but have identified particular impacts from harvesting and roading in many areas where they are greater than from either beetles or fire. Number 437 SENATOR TAYLOR interrupted to ask if he heard her say that his Fish and Game Department has said that 3 + million acres has had no impact on the habitat. MS. WELLBOURN responded that they have identified a few species that prefer older tree forests, like marbled marlets, but by and large, particularly in terms of large game, the impacts from roads and harvesting would be greater than the impacts from the bark beetle or from fire. She said this is the conclusion of game managers as well as forest managers. SENATOR KELLY said Ms. Wellbourn just said that most species don't like old growth forests. So when you cut down old growth forests and new sprouts come back, you have increased habitat and, therefore, you have done a good thing for the environment. MS. WELLBOURN responded that her comments were not about old growth in general, but that the comments from the game managers have been that impacts particularly from roading on the large mammal species are more severe than the impacts from the beetles. SENATOR TAYLOR asked how many acres the Department is reforesting this year. MS. WELLBOURN said that all the harvests on state lands are being reforested. Whether or not grass comes back varies tremendously site to site. Small trees left standing after beetle infestation doesn't open up the habitat as much as harvesting does. SENATOR TAYLOR asked what monies the Department had requested from the Legislature for reforestation in areas that had not been harvested. MS. WELLBOURN answered that they have not requested money to reforest lands that not been harvested. She wanted to make it clear that the Miller's Reach fire was not connected to the spruce bark beetle. She commented that the bill, by mandating entering agreements with owners, undercuts DNR's ability to negotiate reasonable terms for such agreements in terms of what measures are covered and costs. Since the private land owner would know that the Department would be required to reach an agreement. This bill does not apply to just the Kenai Peninsula, but applies statewide and 1998 aerial surveys recorded 12 types of different infestations that damaged more than 100 acres of forest lands. If that was a total, it was one and a half million acres. MS. WELLBOURN said the fiscal note they have submitted is very conservative. DNR continues to salvage and reforest state land that is affected by the infestations where these actions are efficient and effective. They focus on areas first that have high fire risk. However, most of the high fire risk areas are not on state land; they are on private land. She noted that they are working on coordinating with recommendations of the Spruce Bark Beetle Task Force who recommended they focus salvage efforts on areas where there are truly areas of high fire risk. SENATOR TAYLOR asked what the Department did to stop or eradicate any of the 12 infestations she mentioned. MS. WELLBOURN replied that it depended on where it was. Many of the infestations are in areas that are not high priority because of their remoteness and the costs would make them uneconomical. SENATOR TAYLOR asked what she had done in the last four years to mitigate beetle infestation. MS. WELLBOURN replied that they reforest lands where it's feasible and where there is high fire risk. They have additional sales to reoffer, because there were no buyers in their first offering. They have an ongoing program to reduce risk like removing trees along power lines. SENATOR TAYLOR asked what was the estimated impacted acreage on the Kenai Peninsula. Number 576 MS. WELLBOURN answered that it totaled about 70,000 acres, including federal lands. SENATOR TAYLOR asked how many acres they had offered for sale. MS. WELLBOURN answered that they have offered 10,000 so far. SENATOR TAYLOR retorted that's in the four years she has been there and asked her how many this year. MS. WELLBOURN answered close to 1,000 by May 1 and an additional 20,000 over the next five years. SENATOR TAYLOR calculated that if you add 10,000 to 21,000, that comes to about 31,000. So they are averaging about 3,000 acres per year. MS. WELLBOURN added of the state lands that are infested, they estimate about 48,000 acres are feasible to harvest. That means if there was some way to get into it, someone would buy it. TAPE 24, SIDE B SENATOR TAYLOR said they have waited so long to offer the sale that there isn't any value left in the timber. MS. WELLBOURN retorted that that market is just weak now and even for green timber people aren't finding buyers. SENATOR TAYLOR noted that before the infestation in Homer, no one would cut a tree down and now people are out clear cutting around their homes so they won't burn down. He asked why there isn't significant increase in harvesting on state land. MS. WELLBOURN answered that there has been. About six to eight years ago, they harvested about 200 acres per year and now we're harvesting about 2,000 acres per year. She said that most of the timber on the Kenai Peninsula is uneconomical to harvest because of access and the quality of timber. SENATOR TAYLOR asked her if she ever worked for the private sector in forestry related positions. MS. WELLBOURN answered no. Number 510 MR. CLIFF EAMES, Alaska Center for the Environment, opposed SB 142 because it is unnecessary. He commended Ms. Wellbourn for her testimony and said they frequently disagree with the Division on whether or not beetle killed trees should be logged on public lands and on the Kenai Peninsula, in particular. There are a great many Alaskans who don't think it makes sense overall to harvest and build a road system on state owned lands on the Kenai Peninsula except where there is substantial fire risk to communities and individuals. He said the Navarre Task Force has done an excellent job trying to bring people on the Peninsula and throughout the region together to address these most urgent problems. This bill would open old wounds, whereas the Navarre Task Force has done a commendable job in healing some of those differences. Public lands that have trees on them are not there just to be logged although it is appropriate on some of those lands. There are higher values on many of the lands including fish and wildlife habitat, water quality for fish and water sources for humans. He has never found a biologist who believes the habitat would be better off with large scale logging and road building. The Division of Forestry has accelerated their logging program on the Peninsula, but the major reason they have not done more is because there is a great deal of public resistance and they have not received adequate funding from the legislature. If you really want to log a lot of state owned lands on the Kenai Peninsula, you have to pay the Division of Forestry to lay out and administrate the sales and pay operators to remove the trees. MR. ERIK HOLLAND, Fairbanks, said SB 142 is filled with vague phrases that completely bypass the public process. He didn't know if the legislature was familiar with the controversy in the Interior regarding logging in sensitive salmon spawning areas. It has been hard enough to slow down logging in these areas without having a bill like SB 142 adding to the pressure to log. He found it amusing how concerned some people are with forest health as this bill would be fairly expensive. We don't even have enough money to take care of Alaskan people who need health care and are susceptible to heart disease, cancer, and dental problems. He suggested letting locals work out their problems and not spend public funds on this. SENATOR TAYLOR said if you really want to fish and see wildlife in California, Oregon, or Washington, you can really see it on privately owned forest lands where people know how to manage forests. If the same people were managing our forests that were managing for the professional companies like Weyerhouser, they would have never allowed the decimation and loss of this resource. MR. HOLLAND said he thought a lot of it is that folks are concerned that the landscape in Fairbanks would come to resemble that of Washington and Oregon today and that we are spending federal funds to restore our salmon fisheries now and they would rather not go down that road. SENATOR TAYLOR commented that another big problem with salmon is that there are a lot of people on rivers who gillnet fish and strip their roe, sell it to the Japanese, and then throw the carcasses back into the stream. Number 402 MS. AMY MARSH, Fairbanks, said that she is concerned about SB 142 because it has the potential to fast track controversial sales without thorough public review. If the salvage sale has other values of the forest, such as fish habitat, the public deserves a chance to comment. This bill affects all of Alaska, but the problems it addresses are not statewide problems. These problems need to be dealt with on a case by case basis, not by all- encompassing legislation. The Division of Forestry has testified that this bill will not provide any effective new tools to deal with the spruce bark beetle infestations. MR. DAVE LACEY opposed SB 142 because he thought it was management by fiat which he opposed. He thought professional people like Ms. Wellbourn should be allowed to do their jobs. The fiscal note is way too low to accomplish what the bill sets out and he didn't know where the money would come from. SENATOR TAYLOR asked if believed in management by epidemic. MR. LACEY answered that he didn't. SENATOR TAYLOR asked what he would do if this was his forest. MR. LACEY said that was an interesting question and he didn't look at the spruce bark beetle infestation as a disaster movie scenario. He thought because of global warming the beetles were growing stronger and he thought we should address the root of the problem rather than the symptoms. Number 356 MS. PAM LABOLLE, Alaska State Chamber of Commerce, supported SB 142. She said this has been a priority of the State Chamber for three years. In a 1994 DNR report it says the beetle kill renders the wood unusable within three years. If the Department would allow commercial harvest of the trees before they are totally dead, the commercial operators would reforest. It would be a win win situation. Her constituents want the opportunity to harvest the standing fuel load because that's all that's left. She said the State of Alaska is bound by its Constitution, Article 8 to manage its renewable resources for sustained yield and by ignoring the beetle epidemic, the DNR is going against Article 8. SENATOR TAYLOR said that he agreed with her. Number 292 SENATOR MAKCIE said the Alaska Forest Association opposed this bill last year and wanted to know their position now. He also wanted to know if this affected the Forest Practices Act (F.P.A.). MR. HODGINS replied that this bill specifically excludes AS 41.17.115 - AS41.17.119 (riparian areas managed on private lands, public lands next to streams, and the standards for other public lands). This means the commissioner cannot make any adjustments on the Forest Practices Act near the streams. He can make adjustments in the FPA involving the count of trees in areas that didn't previously have a count (the end of the reforestation section). SENATOR MACKIE said that the Forest Association opposed this bill, though. MR. HODGINS replied the reason for their opposition is the DNR said if they have to do this on the Kenai Peninsula and harvest dead trees, there would be less dollars available for areas of green timber. The funding sources are finite. SENATOR MACKIE said his understanding was that some of their opposition was due to the changes the bill would make to the Act which they worked real hard on to find a balance. MR. HODGINS said he didn't recall that discussion. SENATOR MACKIE asked Senator Taylor to talk to someone at the Forest Association to find out their position. MS. KROGSENG testified that the Miller's Reach fire wasn't initially started by trees killed by spruce bark beetles; but from all the information she gathered, it helped in the horrendous devastation and magnitude of that fire. She said the spruce bark beetle is all over the State and depending on the weather, we could see major outbreaks very soon in other areas. VICE CHAIR TAYLOR said he drove through the burned area that is now covered with grass and that experts have told him that it would be difficult to reforest because the grass would choke the trees off. They estimated that natural regeneration would take between 100 and 150 years to recover. He didn't think SB 142 changed the Forest Practices Act, but it allows for exceptions by a commissioner, but he didn't know if it was damaging to the Act or not. Number 150 SENATOR GREEN moved to pass SB 142 from committee with individual recommendations. There were no objections and it was so ordered. SENATOR MAKCIE said that he wanted to hear the Forest Association's position before he would support it further. VICE CHAIR TAYLOR adjourned the meeting at 4:45 p.m.