SENATE RESOURCES COMMITTEE Galena AK October 17, 1997 11:15 A.M. MEMBERS PRESENT Senator Rick Halford, Chairman Senator Loren Leman Senator Robin Taylor Senator Georgianna Lincoln Senator John Torgerson MEMBERS ABSENT Senator Lyda Green, Vice Chairman Senator Bert Sharp COMMITTEE CALENDAR Interim Hearing on Subsistence WITNESS REGISTER Mr. Marvin Yoder, City Manager Galena AK 99741 POSITION STATEMENT: Welcomed Committee members. Ms. Pat Sweetsir Louden Tribal Council P.O. Box 244 Galena AK 99741 POSITION STATEMENT: Welcomed Committee members. Ms. Bev Hundorf Village Corporation Galena AK 99741 POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on subsistence issues. Mr. Will Mayo, President Tanana Chiefs Conference Fairbanks AK POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on subsistence issues. Mr. Steve Ginnic Fort Yukon Tribal Council AITC Council P.O. Box 382 Fort Yukon AK 99740 POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on subsistence issues. Mr. Joe Druck, Sr. Chalkyitsik AK 99788 POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on subsistence issues. Mr. Sidney Huntington P.O. Box 49 Galena AK 99741 POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on subsistence issues. Mr. Fred Bifelt Huslia AK 99746 POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on subsistence issues. Mr. Jack Wholecheese, First Chief Huslia AK 99746 POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on subsistence issues. Ms. Catherine Attla Huslia AK 99764 POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on subsistence issues. Ms. Rose Ambrose Huslia AK 99764 POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on subsistence issues. Mr. Franklin Simon Huslia AK 99764 POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on subsistence issues. Mr. Sidney Henry Huslia AK 99764 POSITION STATEMENT: Written statement read by Ceza Sam. Ms. Ceza Sam Huslia AK 99764 POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on subsistence issues. Mr. Peter David Allakaket AK 99720 POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on subsistence issues, but all of transmission was very broken. Mr. Jim Stevens Anchorage AK POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on subsistence issues, but all of transmission was very broken. Mr. Victor Nicholas, Mayor and Tribal Chief Nulato AK 99765 POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on subsistence issues. Ms. Teckla Esmailka Nulato AK 99765 POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on subsistence issues. Mr. Morris McGinty Nulato AK 99765 POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on subsistence issues. Mr. Michael Stickman, Second Chief, Tribal Council Nulato AK 99765 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported rural priority. Mr. Andy Durney Nulato AK 99765 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported rural priority. Mr. Peter Demoski, Tribal Administrator Nulato AK 99765 POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on subsistence issues. Mr. Walter Stickman, Tribal Council member Nulato AK 99765 POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on subsistence issues. Mr. Simeon Mountain Nulato AK 99765 POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on subsistence issues. Ms. Shirley Christian Nulato AK 99765 POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on subsistence issues. Ms. Edna Ungudrule Peters Ruby Tribal Council P.O. Box 129 Ruby AK 99768 POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on subsistence issues. Mr. Carl Knudson Galena School P.O. Box 299 Galena AK 99741 POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on subsistence issues. Mr. Darryl Walker Holy Cross Tribal Council P.O. Box 43 Holy Cross AK 99602 POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on subsistence issues. Mr. Carl Jerue, Jr. Anvik Tribal Members P.O. Box 10 Anvik AK 99558 POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on subsistence issues. Ms. Adrienne Blatchford Unalakleet AK and PECS P.O. Box 389 Galena AK 99741 POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on subsistence issues. Ms. Marie Chiklak Mountain Village and PECS P.O. Box 359 Galena AK 99741 POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on subsistence issues. Mr. George Yaska, Executive Officer Tanana Chief's Conference P.O. Box 60691 Fairbanks AK 99706 POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on subsistence issues. Mr. Carl Huntington P.O. Box 124 Galena AK 99741 POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on subsistence issues. Mr. Charles Sink Gona-a Yoo, Ltd. P.O. Box 111 Galena AK 99741 POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on subsistence issues. Mr. Gabe Nicholi Grayling P.O. Box 64 Grayling AK 99590 POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on subsistence issues. Mr. Max Huhndorf P.O. Box 329 Galena AK 99741 POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on subsistence issues. Ms. Jenny Perkola P.O. Box 227 Galena AK 99741 POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on subsistence issues. Mr. Orville Huntington P.O. Box 71 Galena AK 99741 POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on subsistence issues. Mr. Don Stickman Galena AK 99741 POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on subsistence issues. Mr. Charlie Jones Kotzebue AK 99752 POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on subsistence issues. Mr. Roger Huntington P.O. Box 10 Galena AK 99741 POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on subsistence issues. Ms. Violet Dayton P.O. Box 176 Galena AK 99741 POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on subsistence issues. Mr. Benedict Jones Koyukuk Tribal Council P.O. Box 47 Koyukuk AK 99754 POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on subsistence issues. Mr. Pat Sweetsir Louden Tribal Council P.O. Box 244 Galena AK 99741 POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on subsistence issues. Ms. Angela Huntington Galena AK 99741 POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on subsistence issues. ACTION NARRATIVE TAPE 97-54, SIDE A Number 001 CHAIRMAN HALFORD called the Senate Resources Committee meeting to order at 11:15 a.m. and announced a hearing on the Governor's Task Force proposal and Senator Stevens' amendments to the subsistence packet that was made in Congress that are sitting on the President's desk at this time. He said he would turn the meeting over to Senator Lincoln, as she is from this district. SENATOR LINCOLN announced that Huslia, Nulato, and Ruby were listening and testifying also. She said she was sorry the House Resources Committee was not able to attend. She thanked everyone for their help in putting this meeting together. MR. MARVIN YODER, City Manager, Galena, welcomed the Committee to Galena. He reminded them that in the bush they are talking about livelihood, not recreation. MS. PAT SWEETSIR, Louden Tribal council, welcomed the Committee to Galena. MS. BEV HUNDORF welcomed the Committee members to Galena. MR. WILL MAYO, President, Tanana Chiefs Conference, said their area spans from the Canadian border to Holy Cross, eighty miles from the Bering Sea. It's a huge land area and most of the villages are remote rural communities and they have varying populations and very few cash economy opportunities. He thanked the Committee for coming and said they should hold more village hearings. MR. MAYO said they understand the issue and the differing points of view. As an urban hunter he supports the rural priority. He thought it could work well for all parties if they could work together on it. He doesn't have a problem with State management, if they will recognize and work with the native communities. He did not think natives wanted to set up a racial block, but they want the State to recognize the management goals for the villages. They do not want to exclude anyone, but they feel that they have status simply because they have never left their homeland to go somewhere else. He urged that the native people be part of the management structure. They believe ANILCA is a good law because it recognizes the needs of rural areas without regards to race, but it sites federal law and constitutional authority and their special relationship which they think is important. They feel this is a matter of national integrity. In the past, he felt, America had been guilty of ethnic cleansing of native Americans. He said there are many states where native Americans work well with the state and federal governments. MR. MAYO thought there were a lot of shortcomings with the Task Force proposal, but it also had some worthy aspects. He didn't think they should consider throwing out the whole plan. He thought they should work with it. The native community stands ready and willing to come to the table and talk in a manner that brings honor and recognizes basic human respect for each other, he said. His fear is that maybe the subsistence and Title 8 ANILCA opponents will win and maybe they will get the federal law repealed or maybe the rural opponents will win. He said a win by either side will never bring peace to this issue. What will bring it to an end is for the legislature, the State government apparatus, and the tribal communities to get together and work it out. He said we all face some real threats because last year the federal government caused the State to stop their aerial program. You can't do it now unless there's an irreversible decline in prey population. Irreversible decline means there's no more breeding pairs out there. He thought the ballot initiative was a dangerous alternative also. In conclusion, he said he would like to work with them in partnership on this issue. MR. STEVE GINNIC, Fort Yukon Tribal Council, had a number of points and one was that native subsistence rights are cultural. [TELECONFERENCE TRANSMISSION WAS VERY BROKEN FOR ENTIRE TESTIMONY.] Another point was that the Alaskan native rights could only be protected through an Alaskan native priority. He said the Alaska native way of life cannot be compromised. SENATOR LINCOLN asked him how he viewed tradition and culture if it's a living tradition. TAPE 97-54, SIDE B MR. GINNIC said the legislature wasn't helping them in terms of economic development, capital projects, or welfare reform. MR. JOE DRUCK, SR., [TELECONFERENCE TRANSMISSION WAS VERY BROKEN FOR ENTIRE TESTIMONY.] MR. SIDNEY HUNTINGTON said there was nothing that could take the place of wildlife resources for his family. In his house they raised 15 children solely off the wildlife resources. However, Alaskans are not taking care of those resources. They are spending too much time on politics. He said the Task Force proposal was at least something on the table. He opposed people coming up from the lower 48-states and taking our fish and game. He thought the natives would be discriminated against much more if the federal government took over management of the wildlife resources. He said we need to use common sense to resolve this issue. SENATOR LINCOLN asked what he thought about changing ANILCA at the federal level and not changing our Constitution. MR. HUNTINGTON answered but the transmission was still broken. CHAIRMAN HALFORD announced a break for lunch. MR. FRED BIFELT, Huslia, said he thought everyone knows how important subsistence is to Alaskans, both rural and urban. He thinks the media sometimes tries to add fuel to the fire of contention. He thought they should focus on something that is based on need, not residence, because there are people in urban areas who are poor just like he is and don't have a good job. He thought the urban/rural argument was a ploy to divide and conquer by the federal government. If the federal government takes over management of wildlife in Alaska it will mean big problems for them. He thought masses of people really controlled the congress and those masses are in Los Angeles and New York and places like that where people know nothing about our lifestyle. He said the federal government would shut down hunting and put them in a museum. He thought our State government should treat everybody equally and we should all try to live together. MR. BIFELT said that a lot of time they get the feeling in the bush that they are being pushed aside and their concerns aren't even being heard in terms of education, power/cost/equalization, and things like that. Since reapportionment things have been going backwards in the bush and that's where the money is coming from - the North Slope and fishing. MR. JACK WHOLECHEESE, First Chief of Huslia, said he would like to see the federal and State managers meet with the people and not overlook the people and leave them out of the decision making process. It is their life and their ancestors hunted and fished on these lands. He said they own a lot of land and they go out and get food that they need every winter. TAPE 97-55, SIDE A He didn't think they needed to be told when to get their fish and meat. They have religious beliefs with their animals and respect them. He said he would do anything to try to work with the people who are going to take over subsistence. MS. CATHERINE ATTLA said she started out hunting and fishing as her income with her grandfather. Her grandfather Olin was always scared of all the laws the non-natives were making. She said they still believe in the ancestor's spirits; they still talk to them. They have been worried ever since they heard the word subsistence. They don't know how to talk to Washington D.C. She said she learned to speak one language and taught herself to speak English. It seems like the federal government is doing more damage to their animals because there aren't as many as there used to be. She said the natives know how to budget their take, just like we know how to bank money. Right now she and her husband have just enough money to buy the things they need not counting beef and chicken which their bodies will get sick from eating, anyhow. MS. ROSE AMBROSE, Huslia, said she is 69-years old and from the time she was small she lived off of subsistence. Her parents had no job and that's the only lifestyle they know. MR. FRANKLIN SIMON said he had trapped all his life. SENATOR LINCOLN asked if there were a time of shortage in bush Alaska and the villages did not have a priority, what would happen to the people who live there if there were no subsistence. MR. SIMON replied that people would "go down" for sure. MS. ATTLA responded that he meant that people's health would go down without income or their diet of meat and fish. MS. CEZA SAM said she had written testimony as told to her by Mr. Sidney Henry. He said he lived his whole life of 63-years in the subsistence lifestyle. He described life in camp and that's how they have subsistence living. They know how to fish and hunt and how much to use in one area. They know how to manage hunting and fishing and want to help make the decisions about their area. MS. SAM testified that she is 23-years old and had been living a subsistence lifestyle all her life. However, she also has a job. The subsistence is very important because if she couldn't get the moose and fish that she eats every day, she couldn't survive on store bought food alone. She said she also enjoys the chances to go hunting and fishing because it makes her feel like a whole person. CHAIRMAN HALFORD thanked the people who testified from Huslia and announced they would go to Nulato for testimony. MR. PETER DAVID, Allakaket, and MR. JIM STEVENS, Anchorage, testified. [TRANSMISSION WAS VERY BROKEN.] MR. VICTOR NICHOLAS, Mayor and Tribal Chief of Nulato, said he tried to come up with words that would win them, but he didn't think it was possible because the problem borders on too many things: sovereignty, native and aboriginal rights, religious rights, and on down to basic human rights. He said that being nomads they have been forced to adapt and in the last 50 years they have been forced to adapt to a new lifestyle, one that is confusing. Because of the way the system is set up they have lost their traditional lifestyle and culture. They are not asking for exclusive rights, but they are asking that in time of need they be given priority not to just hunt, but to live. If they don't give them priority, they will be making criminals out of all of them. The answer to what the legislators call an impasse seems so simple to them. MS. TECKLA ESMAILKA, Nulato, said subsistence is their lifestyle. She was born and raised in Nulato living off the country. She moves June 16 to this country and goes back August 1. She does everything for her family; she does not eat alone; her whole family uses it - out to West Mont, Virginia, Miami, Seattle, Fairbanks, and Huslia. That's where her grandchildren are and they use that food. Whatever the federal government does is wrong. They should back off and let the people continue their style of living. MR. MORRIS MCGINTY, Nulato, said he never thought subsistence was a problem because it so simple to them. It is their way of life. It is so simple that he never got involved in the politics of it. In the past his people lived nomadically and spoke fluent Athabascan languages and then got introduced to the white western culture. The first thing they did was take away their Athabascan language and made them all speak English. He said that rules to regulate them started being made when people started coming up from the outside. He said to let the rural people govern themselves because they are the best managers of the wildlife resources. MR. MICHAEL STICKMAN, Second Chief to the Nulato Tribal Council, said he had direct questions for Senator Halford and Senator Taylor. Yesterday morning he was listening to the radio and Congressman Young in Washington D.C. said that they are the two who are holding the subsistence issue from coming to a vote of the people. He asked why they are holding back making the rural priority an issue. CHAIRMAN HALFORD answered that Congressman Young didn't talk to him before he made those comments and denied that he made them. So he didn't know for sure what he was talking about. He said what they have before them are the Task Force proposal and the Stevens amendment. At this point he didn't know what they would put on the ballot because everything he has heard is opposed to a constitutional amendment as proposed by the Governor's Task Force. MR. STICKMAN said he, himself, had actually heard Congressman Stevens say that yesterday morning. He said that they need a rural priority, not a native priority. There are other people who live out there and they all share their resources. MR. ANDY DURNEY said that he is a non-native white man, but in real life he is full blooded Hungarian. He appreciates their coming to Galena, but he thought they needed more input from bush people. He thought that Alaska is great because of the contributions of all the citizens. The primary source of Alaska's wealth are the natural resources found in rural Alaska. Yet in the last few years the legislature increasingly makes rural Alaskans feel like they are second-class citizens and that they are a burden on the State at the expense of their urban fellow citizens. Over the last few years they have made budget cuts that affect rural Alaskan disproportionately. There's less money for schools and there are efforts to take money from rural schools and put it into the urban schools. They are affected more severely by State revenue sharing and municipal assistance cuts. There's no discretionary funding. There's welfare reform, but there are no meaningful job opportunities and the State is fighting tribal governments and the tribal governments are the organizations that can best address some of these issues. TAPE 97-55, SIDE B MR. DURNEY said long before they were elected or before outsiders arrived, people in bush Alaska fed themselves by hunting and fishing and gathering and they still do that today. Just because they are partially dependent on a cash economy doesn't mean that rural Alaskans should be denied their traditional means of providing for themselves and families or of giving up their worthwhile culture, customs and values. There is still a lot of good in the old traditions and customs and it's not up to the urban legislators to force them to discard those values that are vital and contribute to the uniqueness and the appeal of the State of Alaska. MR. DURNEY noted that the game wardens flew around and were anxious to catch people hunting one day early or one hour too late, but they didn't apply the same effort to prevent the illegal sales of alcohol and drugs to rural villages and they have caused more trouble and grief than anything else out there. He said since we are a government of the people, we should be allowed to vote on the issue. He thought Alaskans support the rural priority in times of shortage, but some legislators are trying to block that. MR. PETER DEMOSKI, Tribal Administrator, thanked the legislators for holding a hearing in the rural area because they need the full participation and consent of every Alaska native community. He thought they should go to at least two or three villages in each region. He supported Mr. Sidney Huntington's testimony. He said they are calling this a subsistence issue, but it isn't really what they are talking about. Subsistence is a way of life and they are talking about hunting, fishing, and trapping priorities. He personally didn't have a preference for either State or federal take-over of management. If there was a choice, he would vote for the rural native to do it. If the State takes over, that doesn't mean the State controls fish and game on federal lands or on village corporation lands. A single agency cannot control the whole State. He strongly supported a co-management system. MR. WALTER STICKMAN, Tribal Council member, said he saw a civil war starting over subsistence, urban vs. rural, moose hunter vs. antler hunter, sportfishing vs. local use, and native vs. non-native. People in rural Alaska get their food one way and urban people get it another. He said they are being told how to hunt and that is dictatorship; that is not right. He supported Mr. Sydney Huntington's testimony. MR. SIMEON MOUNTAIN said that land claims used to scare him because he didn't understand what they were talking about. The first time he heard about subsistence he was worried, too. He said even if they take half of their subsistence away, it would be harder on them. MS. SHIRLEY CHRISTIAN said her main concern is for her 14 and 15 year old sons who don't have much to do in the village. So they go out and trap, snare rabbits, and go fishing. If subsistence stops, she asked what they would do. Would arcades and piano lessons be brought in for them, she asked. MS. EDNA UNGUDRULE PETERS, Ruby Tribal Council, testified. [TRANSMISSION WAS VERY BROKEN.] SENATOR LINCOLN thanked Ms. Peters for coming to testify today and at her own expense. MR. CARL KNUDSON, Galena School, MR. DARRYL WALKER, Holy Cross Tribal Council, and MR. CARL JERUE, JR., Anvik Tribal members, testified [TRANSMISSION WAS VERY BROKEN.] SENATOR LINCOLN asked him if the cultural and traditional values were still very strong in Anvik. MR. JERUE answered that they were still very strong. MS. ADRIENNE BLATCHFORD, Unalakleet, MS. MARIE CHIKLAK, Mountain Village, and MR. GEORGE YASKA, Tanana Chief's Conference, testified. [TRANSMISSION WAS VERY BROKEN.] SENATOR TAYLOR said he has repeatedly heard about subsistence being taken away and there has been nothing and there is nothing pending that would take that away. He asked if he was advocating for them to do nothing to prevent the federal government from taking away subsistence. MR. YASKA replied. [TRANSMISSION WAS VERY BROKEN.] SENATOR TAYLOR said he had not talked to anyone in the legislature who wanted to take away subsistence rights from people who need subsistence. He asked if he wanted to vote on an amendment this fall, and if so, which one did he want to vote on. MR. YASKA replied. [TRANSMISSION WAS VERY BROKEN.] SENATOR LINCOLN asked if the legislature has denied anyone their subsistence right. It is her belief that by not having a rural preference, they will be denying people subsistence rights. In times of shortage a rural preference is the only way to go. She also understood Senator Taylor to believe that every Alaskan should have a subsistence right because it is a human right. SENATOR TAYLOR agreed and said that is also the AFN position. TAPE 97-56, SIDE A SENATOR LINCOLN said a rural preference amendment is not a complicated issue and that's what has to go on the ballot before they adjourn in May. MR. CARL HUNTINGTON, MR. CHARLES SINK, MR. GABE NICHOLI MR. MAX HUHNDORF, MS. JENNY PERKOLA, MR. ORVILLE HUNTINGTON and MR. DON STICKMAN testified. [TRANSMISSION WAS VERY BROKEN.] TAPE 97-56, SIDE B MR. CHARLIE JONES, MR. ROGER HUNTINGTON, MS. VIOLET DAYTON, and MR. BENEDICT JONES testified. [TRANSMISSION WAS VERY BROKEN.] TAPE 97-57, SIDE A MR. JONES continued testifying. MR. PAT SWEETSIR, Louden Tribal Council, and MS. ANGELA HUNTINGTON testified. [TRANSMISSION WAS VERY BROKEN.] CHAIRMAN HALFORD thanked everyone for their participation and adjourned the meeting.