SENATE RESOURCES COMMITTEE April 2, 1997 4:02 P.M. MEMBERS PRESENT Senator Rick Halford, Chairman Senator Loren Leman Senator Robin Taylor Senator Georgianna Lincoln Senator John Torgerson MEMBERS ABSENT Senator Lyda Green, Vice Chairman Senator Bert Sharp COMMITTEE CALENDAR Confirmation Hearings: Board of Fisheries Mr. Larry Engel P.O. Box 197 Palmer, Alaska 99645 Mr. Robert (Ed) Dersham P.O. Box 555 Anchor Point, AK 99556 ACTION NARRATIVE TAPE 97-23, SIDE A Number 001 CHAIRMAN HALFORD called the Senate Resources Committee meeting to order at 4:02 p.m. and announced the Board of Fisheries confirmation hearings. MR. LARRY ENGEL said he had no conflicts of interest and he has served on the Board for the last three years. He said he was born and raised in Washington state. His family was involved in construction and commercial fishing. He first came to Alaska in 1958 with the Navy and served as the fish and wildlife liaison with the military base and the Department of Fisheries. He became employed by the Department of Fish and Game in 1960 and worked for 22 years as a fisheries biologist. He has served as a fisheries advisor to various groups since his retirement. MR. ENGEL said the reason he want to serve on the Board is that the fisheries have been part of his life since he's been a young man and it has been good to him and now that he's retired he feels he has the time to give back to those resources what was given to him. Number 78 SENATOR LEMAN said one of the criticisms he hears often of the Board is the lack of experience in commercial fishing from the broad area of the Aleutians to Yakutat, in the Gulf and coast fisheries related to it. Neither of the two appointments do anything to abate that criticism and asked if he agreed with it. Could he cover for that by relying on other people. MR. ENGEL said he has heard that and his position is that he is seated on the Board to represent all interests throughout the State. He puts just as much effort into trying to come up with reasoned decisions and he has a background in the commercial fisheries and fisheries biology. SENATOR TAYLOR asked over the last three or four years that he's been on the board does he receive calls when he is at home on some of the contentious issues or do they restrict themselves to communicating with him during the public process. MR. ENGEL replied that he had received many calls at home. He has also attempted to meet on the fishing grounds and in the processing plants. Number 225 SENATOR TORGERSON said people on the Advisory Boards, especially in Kenai, feel that the Board hasn't listened to their concerns and there's a very high frustration level and asked him if he thought that was a problem and what he might suggest to bring confidence back into those panels. MR. ENGEL concurred that the advisory process is not working as well as it once did. He said tomorrow would be the first time he will be attending the Joint Boards of Game and Fisheries where they will deal 100% with advisory committee issues. SENATOR TORGERSON asked if he anticipated coming out of that meeting with some guidelines to help this problem. MR. ENGEL said he didn't know what the outcome would be, but the point of the meeting is to look at the advisory committee structure and see how they improve it. SENATOR TAYLOR asked if they attempted to advise or make recommendations to the Limited Entry Commission. MR. ENGEL replied yes. He said they try to get the Limited Entry Commission to hold their meetings that deal with fisheries about to come under their jurisdiction to at the same time. He said they have a good working relationship. SENATOR TAYLOR asked if he or the Board contemplated a buy back program as a form of reallocation of resource, especially on the contested issue of upper Cook Inlet. MR. ENGEL said that had never been discussed to his knowledge. But he said that was one of second phases of the limited entry program for economic viability. However, he said, one of the concerns is as they reduce the number of participants further, that gives even greater exclusive rights to the remaining people. Number 330 MR. ED DERSHAM said he was born and raised in the State of Oregon. He reviewed his resume for the committee. He said he has participated quite a bit in the Board of Fisheries process for seven years or so and the North Pacific Management Council process and he has come to highly regard the Board process. He cares a lot about the fisheries and the conservation of the fisheries and wants to dedicate his energy to serving on the Board. SENATOR LEMAN asked if he had seen a change in Cook Inlet in halibut quantities and size that may suggest that the stocks are in trouble or that we might be looking at limits on that growth or do things look like they are in great shape. MR. DERSHAM answered that his personal observations in the last 20 years of fishing for halibut out there is that they have cycles up and down and they seem to be cycling back up again. They do tend to see older halibut that are a smaller size. He has a personal concern about the number of big halibut being taken by the sport fisheries and he thinks it's a big mistake to target them. They are a brood stock and everything the sport fishery can do to reduce the harvest of those bigger fish would be good. He see certain areas of the State that are full or over capitalized as far as the halibut charter fishery goes. SENATOR LEMAN asked what his assessment was of the king and silver salmon stocks in the time he's been chartering, especially the Kenai kings and how healthy they appear. MR. DERSHAM responded that they went through a couple of years in the early 90s where the return of the late run of the Kenai River kings seemed really sparse in the salt water and in the River counts. They say it has been much better in the last three or four years. It's not a very scientific viewpoint that they get because there are other factors to consider like certain conditions bring more kings close to the beach on given years. SENATOR LEMAN asked if he had done any research at all on the king salmon by-catch on the trawl fisheries in the Gulf of Alaska. MR. DERSHAM replied that they have quite a bit of information from the halibut charters on king salmon by-catch and it causes big concern. It is a big frustration because they haven't been able to effectively address it. Number 417 SENATOR LEMAN asked if he thought the Board needed additional information to be able separate stocks for certain streams such as the more recent intercepts like off the capes in Kodiak that are bound for Cook Inlet and some of the mixing stocks in the Inlet that might be headed for the Susitna, the Kenai, the Kasilof, etc. MR. DERSHAM replied the more information they get the better regarding those stocks, but there are so many difficulties in gathering that information and in separating stocks. SENATOR LEMAN asked if participated at all in the winter king salmon fishery off of Bluff Point. MR. DERSHAM replied that he didn't, but he has a lot of close friends who do. Number 449 SENATOR LINCOLN said she noted in his objectives he talked about allocation issues and wanted to know his view on the resolution that he may have on them. MR. DERSHAM said he would draw on his own allocation experience and the approach that was taken was a lot of meetings among the users with Department participation before it actually came before the Board. In the McCabe Flats they were actually able to come up with a compromise between the user groups that no one was really happy with, but everyone decided they could live with; and that is what the Board actually adopted a year ago. He thought that was a good approach. He also thought the subcommittee approach that the Board of Fisheries has been taking in recent meetings has a lot of merit because it allows more time for the public to be involved and pass information and the members of the user groups to speak to possible solutions. SENATOR TAYLOR asked for his thoughts on the proposed subsistence barter and trade of halibut that is being proposed before the North Pacific Council. MR. DERSHAM said he wasn't familiar with that, but would very much appreciate getting a copy of it. SENATOR TAYLOR asked if he felt that any quantity of catch restriction would be a benefit for out-of-State users of the resource in his area. MR. DERSHAM replied when you look at different specific fisheries he thought there would be different answers to that question. People coming to Alaska and canning fish to send south has been a very visible problem. He's not sure that non-resident limits would be the way to solve that problem, because most of the people caught there would violate the law, anyhow. He said the Board would probably look at that issue next February. SENATOR TAYLOR said he has concerns and has listened to concerns about the large halibut taken out of that area and thought that if there was a quantity or weight limitation, then the charter boat operator would be much more interested in catching five or six small halibut as opposed to catching one halibut that might put his whole boat over the limit. He noted that the last time someone tried a concept like this, she was thrown off the Board by people out of the Kenai and Anchorage area. MR. DERSHAM agreed with him and thought the issued needed looking at for that very reason. He said at his lodge they educate people about how much fish they really are catching and how much they really need to take home and put an incentive in there for them to stop by putting 70 lbs. fish processing per person or else they pay more. SENATOR TAYLOR reflected back over the last thirty years he has been involved with the fisheries and he thought that those guys who were all commercial fishermen who dominated the Board must have done a good job of managing those resources for all of the charter people to come along now and have a business to work off of. He hoped that all the sport dominated folks that seem to be the preference to this Board do just half as good a job. MR. DERSHAM said he understands that, but he agrees with Mr. Engel's comments and believes if a Board member is energetic and dedicated to doing a good job and to educating himself he can do a good job. CHAIRMAN HALFORD thanked everyone and said they would pass their nominations on to the full Senate and adjourned the meeting at 4:45 p.m.