SENATE RESOURCES COMMITTEE February 19, 1996 2:42 P.M. MEMBERS PRESENT Senator Loren Leman, Chairman Senator Drue Pearce, Vice Chairman Senator Robin Taylor Senator Georgianna Lincoln Senator Lyman Hoffman MEMBERS ABSENT Senator Steve Frank Senator Rick Halford COMMITTEE CALENDAR SENATE BILL NO. 257 "An Act relating to the taking of game or fish for public safety purposes." SENATE BILL NO. 278 "An Act relating to the authority of the Department of Natural Resources to allow credits against fees at state historical parks." PREVIOUS SENATE COMMITTEE ACTION SB 257 - No previous action to consider. SB 278 - No previous action to consider. WITNESS REGISTER Senator Fred Zharoff State Capitol Juneau, AK 99801-1182 POSITION STATEMENT: Sponsor of SB 257. Captain Richard Graham Division of Wildlife Protection Department of Public Safety 50700 E. Tudor Rd. Anchorage, AK 99507 POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on SB 257. Ken Taylor, Deputy Director Division of Wildlife Conservation Department of Fish and Game P.O. Box 25526 Juneau, AK 99802-5526 POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on SB 257. Wayne Regelin, Director Division of Wildlife Conservation Department of Fish and Game P.O. Box 25526 Juneau, AK 99802-5526 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SB 257. Joe Ambrose, Chief of Staff Senator Robin Taylor % State Capitol Bldg. Juneau, AK 99801-1182 POSITION STATEMENT: Sponsor of SB 278. Jim Stratton, Director Division of Parks and Outdoor Recreation Department of Natural Resources 3601 C St., Ste. 1200 Anchorage, AK 99503 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SB 278. William Garry Chilkat Bald Eagle Preserve Advisory Council Division of Parks and Outdoor Recreation Department of Natural Resources 3601 C St., Ste. 1200 Anchorage, AK 99503 POSITION STATEMENT: Available for answering questions on SB 278. Michael Rody Ketchikan Gateway Borough 433 Front St. Ketchikan, AK 99901 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SB 278. Craig Moore, Member Ketchikan Area State Parks Advisory Board P.O. Box 5776 Ketchikan, AK 99901 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SB 278. ACTION NARRATIVE TAPE 96-16, SIDE A Number 001 SRES 2/19/96 SB 257 TAKING FISH OR GAME FOR PUBLIC SAFETY  CHAIRMAN LEMAN called the Senate Resources Committee meeting to order at 3:42 p.m. and announced SB 257 to be up for consideration. SENATOR ZHAROFF, sponsor of SB 257, thanked the Committee for scheduling the bill and said it addresses the interaction between bears and humans particularly in the fall. He said there are some legal mechanisms in place now for protection of life and property, but in many cases there is a concern that when a peace officer is asked to take care of the problem, they are facing possible litigation as a result of not doing it correctly. SB 257 gives the authority to the Commissioner to authorize the taking of fish and game for public safety purposes. The second portion gives the Board of Game the power to adopt regulations regarding public safety and welfare. He found last fall that the Board of Game needs statutory language to be able to identify and actually authorize someone to take care of the problem. The intent is not to arbitrarily take the predator at any notice. It does set up the mechanism so the Board of Game could develop the regulations and guidelines that are necessary. SENATOR ZHAROFF said the main problem seems to center on garbage bears who have gone beyond the dumps and are actually wandering in and out of communities. It concerns mostly the safety of children in the fall time of year. Number 97 SENATOR LEMAN asked if this bill authorized the Department to stop someone from harvesting for public safety reasons. SENATOR ZHAROFF said he thought that mechanisms were already in place for any endangerment of losing your property or if there is a life threatening situation. SENATOR LEMAN said he was concerned that the bill not go beyond what Senator Zharoff is trying to accomplish. Number 111 SENATOR TAYLOR said he was trying to understand why it was so difficult to put down a bear in Angoon when in Juneau two years ago 17 bears were killed. SENATOR LINCOLN said the copy of the memo from Commissioner Rue to Commissioner Otte says one of the solutions would be for a VPSO to have a permit if there wasn't a biologist or protection officer in the community. Her community of Rampart doesn't have any type of protection officer and she asked if that meant the village could not take matters into their own hands. SENATOR ZHAROFF said he hoped the Board of Game could address that issue. SENATOR LINCOLN said she hoped the Board would take into consideration those communities, like Rampart, that don't have any protection at all, because when a bear is in your smoke house you can't wait to get permission or wait for an official to arrive. SENATOR ZHAROFF said this bill is not an incentive to go out and actually dispose of a bear, but to protect the public and to make the public feel there is some cooperation between the State and municipalities. SENATOR TAYLOR asked if he was informed that the Commissioner does not have authority today to take a predator. SENATOR ZHAROFF said the Department would have to address that, but he knew that the Commissioner does have the authority in a life threatening situation. Number 210 CAPTAIN RICHARD GRAHAM, Department of Public Safety, said one of his concerns at this point is who will be authorized to do the "taking." Although, they feel it would be some sort of official. In speaking with Colonel Godfrey, Director, Alaska State Troopers, he found that he has some real concern with village public safety officers becoming involved because of liability. Village public safety officers may or may not have training in animal behavior and they receive very little, if any, firearms training. He said he wanted to work with the villagers on this issue. SENATOR TAYLOR said he wanted someone to comment on the Haines police officer being cited for shooting a bear. CAPTAIN GRAHAM said he would research that and get back to him with the information. KEN TAYLOR, Deputy Director, Division of Wildlife Conservation, said that SB 257 essentially expands the authority to permit the taking of game for public safety reasons. During the past sessions of the Board of Game they have wrestled with several issues involving public safety in relation to wildlife and the Department of Law has expressed concern that the Board does not really have the authority to address public safety as a primary issue. So one section in the bill addresses that. MR. TAYLOR said the taking of game, while it is implicit in the powers and duties of the Commissioner, it isn't explicitly stated. It is important for the Commissioner to have the legal authority to delegate the taking to another individual. If this legislation did pass, they would work with the Department of Public Safety and villages that have recurrent problems to address this issue. They have problems with more than just bears, like with moose, also. SENATOR LEMAN asked if this would affect the three resident moose who live in his neighborhood who aren't causing any problems aside from eating decorative trees. He asked if someone could use this as authority to take them even if they aren't life threatening. MR. TAYLOR answered that it alleviates the Department of Law's concerns over their current defense of life and property regulation. Nothing in this legislation would open opportunities for the general public to take problem wildlife. This basically makes it explicit in statute that the Commissioner does have the authority to take wildlife that would allow him to delegate that authority to the Department of Public Safety or DNR, if necessary. It also clarifies the Board of Game's authority in relationship to passing regulations dealing with public safety issues. SENATOR LEMAN asked if a moose charging and stomping a dog team was a different circumstance than trampling cabbages. MR. TAYLOR replied that it would be and he doubted very much that a person would be cited in that situation. SENATOR TAYLOR said he wished he had the same confidence, because he has seen people cited because a bear came into a prospecting camp in the middle of the night and they killed it. There is also the situation in Haines where a police officer was cited for killing a bear. He said there was almost an egalitarian presence within the Department that says no other human being has the common sense to make a decision when a bear can be killed. MR. TAYLOR said he thought this legislation would clarify those points. Number 351 SENATOR LEMAN asked if this would give the Department authority to stop takings that might otherwise be occurring now. He mentioned an incident in Homer of a man who wanted to set a net and catch fish and the Department was trying to stop him. MR. TAYLOR said he hadn't looked at the language from that standpoint. SENATOR LEMAN asked if the Board of Game now has regulations for which it does not have statutory authority. MR. TAYLOR answered that the Department of Law was concerned with the defense of life and property regulation and there is also a law on the books that allows permits to destroy nuisance beavers that are cutting people's trees down, etc. There are a number of others. SENATOR LEMAN asked if this bill would cover authority for the mandatory hunter safety classes. MR. TAYLOR answered that it would cover the Department of Law's concern on that issue. SENATOR TAYLOR mentioned the memo from Commissioner Rue to Commissioner Otte saying he did not want to wait until a comprehensive wildlife human interaction plan is developed and implemented before addressing the immediate problems faced by rural residents. SENATOR TAYLOR did not think it was the rural residents' problem, but rather a problem faced by the Department of not having the legal authority for doing what they have been doing for a period of time. MR. TAYLOR replied since statehood it has been implicit that the Commissioner has had the authority to authorize the employees to take animals. Because that authority is not explicit in statute it is very difficult to delegate to another entity. SENATOR TAYLOR asked what assurances they have in the legislature that cleaning up the statutory language won't be used to expand the number of people who can dispose of problem bears. MR. TAYLOR replied that at the fall Board of Game meeting this was discussed extensively and it was decided that the first step would be to get legislation introduced to allow a mechanism for both ADF&G and the DPS to enter into a cooperative agreement to do this. He had been designated as the contact person for DPS to work out a solution to this problem. SENATOR HOFFMAN reiterated Senator Lincoln's question about someone who had prepared their fish all summer and their winter supply was being endangered by a bear. MR. TAYLOR answered yes this legislation would clarify the defense of life and property law. SENATOR LINCOLN added that is only if the regulations are written so that they don't say village public safety officer or another official. She thought there should be another provision for communities where none of those official capacities exist. MR. TAYLOR replied that they hadn't worked through the details on how the authority would be delegated from the Commissioner. That is part of the problem they are going to try to address. SENATOR TAYLOR thought that it was incomprehensible that the Department was able to act under inherent authority for 30 years with such dispatch (over 17 bears shot in Juneau two years ago). He also thought it was fascinating that someone would contemplate that we need a comprehensive wildlife human interaction plan. Number 447 WAYNE REGELIN, Director, Division of Wildlife Conservation, said they do have implicit authority that has been used for a long time to take care of the problems when they have people on site. In today's litigation, if we went to court, the Department of Law says, for taking bears like this, we would probably lose. He said they are looking ahead on this issue. Also, in rural Alaska where there are problems with bears, if it's not endangerment of life and property, then the laws come into effect and people can shoot the bear. The problem is in villages like Angoon or King Cove where a bear terrifies the villagers day after day. It's not imminent danger, but the village is terrified. Now, he can't delegate someone who is there to fix the problem. He didn't expect this to happen very often. MR. REGELIN related the Homer incident where the entrance to the spit was not closed to fishing. Someone put their net in the water and when ADF&G tried to change it, they weren't able to because it was only for the purpose of public safety. That is why fish is being kept in the bill. The net was for personal use, he said. the situation was taken care of by the Homer City Council because the Board of Fish did not have the authority. It's questionable that the City Council had the authority, he added. SENATOR ZHAROFF said he realized this bill was not a cure-all, and they are working with communities to do other things like taking care of their landfills. CAPTAIN GRAHAM pointed out the defense of life and property regulation would not necessarily go away with this legislation. SENATOR TAYLOR said it sounded like common sense was not used in the past in these prosecutions. People know how to handle the bear problem, but they are afraid of the bureaucrat problem. SENATOR HOFFMAN said that is exactly like an incident that happened in Bethel this past fall. SENATOR TAYLOR said he had never seen a lot of common sense used in the enforcement field when it came to prosecutions in these cases. He didn't have any faith that merely because the Department is given specific authority that we're going to somehow end up with either better regulations, or more efficient enforcement, or more assistance to people in rural areas. SENATOR TAYLOR asked why they didn't just give municipalities the authority to handle any animal problems within their cities. Number 575 SENATOR LINCOLN said she thought Senator Taylor's concerns were addressed within the legislation to a great extent. MR. REGELIN commented that you can't legislate good judgement, but in some cases he could delegate authority over the phone to solve animal problems. In most cases there is more time to deal with these situations. SENATOR LINCOLN moved SB 257 from Committee with individual recommendations with the accompanying $0 fiscal note. TAPE 96-16, SIDE B Number 580 SENATOR TAYLOR objected for a comment. He thought the legislature maybe should authorize home rule cities to take care of animal problems. He said he had no objection to the bill and when it came to Judiciary he would do everything he could to assist Senator Zharoff. He, then, removed his objection. There were no objections and SB 257 passed from Committee. SRES 2/19/96 SB 278 CREDITS AGAINST FEES AT ST HISTORICAL PKS  SENATOR LEMAN announced SB 278 to be up for consideration. SENATOR TAYLOR said the purpose of the bill is to provide a mechanism so they can accomplish a land transfer that is in a parking lot to provide more parking for the Native Cultural Center. It provides some reimbursement through a credit system. JOE AMBROSE, Legislative Aide to Senator Taylor, said SB 278 was introduced to address concerns raised by the Ketchikan Area State Parks Advisory Board and the Ketchikan Gateway Borough Assembly. It provides a mechanism by which the Division of Parks and Outdoor Recreation could acquire two small parcels of land adjacent to Totem Bight State Historical Park. The parcels are currently held by Ketchikan Public Utilities (KPU) as the site of a diesel generation plant. KPU plans to vacate the property which would revert to the Ketchikan Gateway Borough. SB 278 would allow DNR to offer credits against fees paid by commercial tour operators for payments made to a municipality for projects that will mitigate or alleviate access, congestion, and parking problems at historical parks. The Division of Parks and Outdoor Recreation has indicated that use of this provision at any other State historical park other than Totem Bight is unlikely. In any event, the authority would sunset on December 31, 2000. The three year window is needed to avoid drawing down too quickly against the fees. MR. AMBROSE said that Totem Bight is about 12 and a half acres and is located north of the City of Ketchikan and had an estimated 160,000 visitors in 1995, half of them arriving from commercial tours. In 1977 it was estimated that the park could handle 636 - 734 people at one time. Actual use now exceeds 925 people at any one time. The park also has only seven parking spaces for buses and there are often up to 21 buses parked in the lot, on the shoulders, and at a nearby gift shop. To mitigate the overcrowding, DNR is proposing that tour operators pay for the acquisition of the borough-owned parcels to provide the additional parking space and additional attractions, such as trails and possibly a carving demonstration area. DOT/PF has an interest in developing a transportation enhancement project along the road at Totem Bight, if the land becomes available. Totem Bight is a valuable asset; the State has invested more than $1 million in capital improvements to the facility over the past 10 years. SENATOR TAYLOR said this bill is so narrowly drawn that it will only involve a situation where you have a State Park that was actually collecting concession fees and that those fees could then be utilized as a credit to leverage the purchase of property from a municipality. Number 510 JIM STRATTON, Director, Division of Parks and Recreation, supported SB 278 and thanked Senator Taylor, especially, for his sponsorship. He had reviewed other State historical parks this bill could apply to and he found only one with significant access problems, the House of Wickersham in Juneau. Practically, this bill will only apply to Totem Bight, especially with the three year window. WILLIAM GARRY, Chilkat Bald Eagle Preserve Advisory Council, said he would answer questions from the Committee. MICHAEL RODY, Ketchikan Gateway Borough, said that capital projects were becoming increasingly difficult to fund. This particular project is maybe one of the most visited parks in the State. The Assembly recently approved the disposal of the property once it is acquired. They don't have it at the present time, but the generator is being removed. SENATOR LEMAN asked him to describe the land transfer process. MR. RODY replied that once the generator is sold and removed, they hold fee simple title on the property. He had been informed that the equipment has been sold and will be removed in the next several months. He has the authority from the Assembly to sell it or do whatever is appropriate. CRAIG MOORE, Ketchikan Area State Parks Advisory Board, said they strongly supported SB 278 and thanked Senator Taylor for sponsoring it. They feel it is a great opportunity for this park as it is heavily used by tourists in the summer. Native culture is an important theme in Southeast Alaska and Totem Bight State Historical Park has one of the best collections of totemic art in the area. Number 442 SENATOR TAYLOR moved to pass SB 278 with individual recommendations with the accompanying fiscal note. There were no objections and it was so ordered. SENATOR LEMAN adjourned the meeting at 4:45 p.m.