SENATE RESOURCES COMMITTEE Soldotna, Alaska April 8, 1995 9:12 A.M. MEMBERS PRESENT Senator Loren Leman, Chairman Senator Georgianna Lincoln COMMITTEE MEMBERS ABSENT Senator Drue Pearce, Vice Chairman Senator Steve Frank Senator Rick Halford Senator Robin Taylor Senator Lyman Hoffman OTHER MEMBERS PRESENT Lieutenant Governor Fran Ulmer Senator John Torgerson Senator Mike Miller COMMITTEE CALENDAR SENATE JOINT RESOLUTION NO. 19 Requesting the Congress to amend the Alaska National Interest Lands Conservation Act to clarify that the term "public lands" means only federal land and water and that any extension of federal jurisdiction onto adjacent land and water is expressly prohibited. PREVIOUS SENATE COMMITTEE ACTION SJR 19 - See Resources Committee minutes dated 3/29/95. WITNESS REGISTER Sterling Eide Cook Inlet Professional Sportfishing Association Soldotna, AK 99669 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SJR 19. Dick Bower Board of Fisheries P.O. Box 3662 Soldotna, AK 99669 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SJR 19. Tim Evers Deep Creek Charter Boat Association Ninilchik, AK 99639 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SJR 19. Lyman Nichols Cooper Landing, AK 99572 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SJR 19. Dave Martin Central Peninsula Advisory Committee Soldotna, AK 99669 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SJR 19. Loren Flagg Kenai Peninsula Fishermen's Association 34824 K-Beach Rd. Soldotna, AK 99669 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SJR 19. Tom Walker Cook Inlet Aquaculture Association POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SJR 19. Chris Moss North Pacific Fisheries Association Homer, AK 99603 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SJR 19. Richard Link Kenai Peninsula Chapter of Safari Club International Soldotna, AK 99669 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SJR 19. Lynn Whitmore, Chairman Homer Advisory Board Homer, AK 99603 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SJR 19. Ed Krohn, Chairman Kenai Advisory Board Soldotna, AK 99669 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SJR 19. Dan Haskins Alaska Bowhunters Soldotna, AK 99669 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SJR 19. Leon Metz Alaska Trappers Kenai, AK 99611 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SJR 19. Merle Walford South Peninsula Sportsman Association Homer Charter Association Homer, AK 99603 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SJR 19. Ed Marsters Matanuska Valley Sportsmen Association P.O. Box 892 Sterling, AK 99672 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SJR 19. Jim Reardon Homer, AK 99669 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SJR 19. Don Poole Alaska Bow Hunters P.O. Box 2200 Soldotna, AK 99669 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SJR 19. Charles Daniel P.O. Box 238 Kenai, AK 99611 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SJR 19. Seymour Mills P.O. Box 51 Sterling, AK 99672 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SJR 19. Brad Ames P.O. Box 396 Soldotna, AK 99669 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SJR 19. Steve Vanek P.O. Box 103 Ninilchik, AK 99639 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SJR 19. Theo Matthews, Executive Director United Cook Inlet Driftnetters Association P.O. Box 389 Kenai, AK 99611 POSITION STATEMENT: Opposed SJR 19. Gary Superman P.O. Box 8425 Nikiski, AK 99672 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SJR 19. Al Franzman P.O. Box 666 Soldotna, AK 99669 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SJR 19. Elaina Spraker P.O. Box 2534 Soldotna, AK 99669 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SJR 19. Gary Hull P.O. Box 1964 Soldotna, AK 99669 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SJR 19. Debra Horne P.O. Box 592 Kasilof, AK 99610 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SJR 19. Joe Schwab P.O. Box 499 Clam Gulch, AK 99568 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SJR 19. Michael Cruger P.O. Box 102 Galena,AK 99741 POSITION STATEMENT: Opposed SJR 19. Joseph Jolly HCO1, Box 753 Soldotna, AK 99669 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SJR 19. Charlie Parker P.O. Box 349 Soldotna, AK 99669 POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on federal presence in Alaska. Gary Cadd Kenai, AK 99611 POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on the federal government in Alaska. ACTION NARRATIVE TAPE 95-39, SIDE A Number 001 SJR 19 AMEND ANILCA TO DEFINE PUBLIC LANDS  CHAIRMAN LEMAN called the Senate Resources Committee meeting to order at 9:12 a.m. and stated that he was on teleconference from Soldotna. He announced SJR 19 which addressed management of our resources to be up for consideration. SENATOR LINCOLN apologized that she was not able to travel to Soldotna for the meeting, but she also needed to attend the Long Range Fiscal Planning Committee meeting in Juneau at 11:00 a.m. She said that she believed SJR 19 was an integral part of a subsistence agenda, although they would hear to the contrary. She said she is supportive of having state control of fish and game, but she didn't think this was the manner in which to do it. She thought a constitutional amendment would bring us back into compliance to have management of fish and game at the state level. SENATOR LINCOLN said she was also concerned that the hearings were being held in just Fairbanks, Soldotna, and Juneau. She was concerned that many people across the state would not be able to testify and that there wasn't testimony from rural bush Alaska. SENATOR LEMAN said the committee is spending approximately 20 hours on hearings for this legislation which is much more than they spend on most legislation. SENATOR TORGERSON thanked the Resources Committee for having the meeting in Soldotna. SENATOR MILLER said he did not think SJR 19 was a challenge to the federal rural priority system. He thought it was a simple resolution asking congress to reconfirm its commitment that it made to Alaska in the Statehood Act which gives Alaska the ability to manage its own fish and game. Number 201 STERLING EIDE, Cook Inlet Professional Sportfishing Association, said they do many projects to enhance habitat and fisheries. They support SJR 19, because they do support state management. The framework is already in place for managing a complicated fishery in Cook Inlet and, in particular, the Kenai River. Technology is being used and improved each year by a group of experienced biologists who are also improving each year. He would hate to see us start all over again with another group of managers who do not understand the problems and who, perhaps, don't care as much about it as the crew that is managing it now does. His association believes in the regulatory system that is in place now, starting with the advisory committees and including the Board of Game. They believe the federal government's place in Alaska is in the traditional areas of waterfowl management, the National Marine Fisheries Service, and the Endangered Species Act. There is a lot of work that is needed in those areas and the feds don't need to expand their resources into managing state areas. Number 270 DICK BOWER, Alaska Board of Fisheries, said he does not speak for the Board, but he complimented the Senate for taking action at this time. He said historically that one of Alaska's problems is with dealing with people who do not have the knowledge of the State and do not recognize the great diversity that is here and must be taken into account. A significant threat to our fish and game will remain if the federal government fails to manage lands under its control in a manner consistent with the best interests of the species that are involved, he said. Whenever subsistence priority is an issue on the Board, they try to weigh all of their decisions in connection with the need for seeing that subsistence priorities are considered. So he would hope that the Board's best interests would stand for the subsistence use as well as the overall resource. TIM EVERS, Deep Creek Charter Boat Association, supported SJR 19 to help stop the federal takeover of management of our resources. They believe the state can do the best job of managing the resources and that the Board of Fisheries is designed for public input and serves all user groups best. They believe the governor harmed the Katie John lawsuit appeal by dropping the Babbit case. Katie John asks the feds to extended its management into all state waters including marine waters. The Katie John case forces the feds to take over to protect subsistence. The problem here is that the Federal Subsistence Board will have only one client, the subsistence users. The feds don't have to balance with, or even consider, other user groups. The State of Alaska was given certain rights at statehood and this type of intervention goes against the Statehood Act, he said in conclusion. Number 354 LYMAN NICHOLS, Cooper Landing Fish and Game Advisory Committee, said Cooper Landing qualifies as a rural area and they unanimously supported SJR 19. They hope it is only the first step in the state regaining management of fish and wildlife. ADF&G is much more responsive to public input than the federal government. DAVE MARTIN, Chairman, Central Peninsula Advisory Committee, said they unanimously supported SJR 19. The system of local advisory committees is working very well and is admired by people from down south. He said the advisory committee process relays the local public's input to any and all state and federal agencies on matters pertaining to fish and game issues. It is the envy of many states in the lower 48. LOREN FLAGG, Kenai Peninsula Fishermen's Association (KPFA), said he was a 27-year resident of Alaska. KPFA has about 740 members and they wholeheartedly support SJR 19. Number 433 TOM WALKER, Cook Inlet Aquaculture Association, said the long term strength of our salmon resources is so dependent on effective management that the experience and philosophy of the management agency and personnel is of substantial concern. They believe the State of Alaska through its Department of Fish and Game is best suited to manage these resources. The department has a long history of management and demonstrated capability to carry out that management with balanced concern for both the health of the resource and the needs of the various user groups. To the extent that clarification of the term public lands will help to assure state management of the resources, at least, on state-owned and non-public lands it has their support. Their experience has been that the federal agencies and their personnel have a perspective which is narrow in focus and sufficiently inflexible to accommodate the day-to-day, season-to-season, management adjustments which are necessary for the optimum protection and use of the resources. CHRIS MOSS, North Pacific Fisheries Association, said they support SJR 19. He said that federal management of resources is abysmal. ED KROHN, Kenai Advisory Board, said they unanimously supported SJR 19 at their last meeting and he asked for a show of hands from the public (about 25 people) and no one opposed it. He completely supported Sterling Eide's earlier comments. LYNN WHITMORE, Homer Advisory Board, said they didn't have any native associations or villages in their advisory area. In general, they are pleased to see the attempt to clarify ANILCA. The intent and interpretation seems to vary with each administration. They wholeheartedly supported SJR 19. RICHARD LINK, Kenai Peninsula Chapter of Safari Club International, said their members fully supported SJR 19. He said for years they have been very concerned with the loss of control of management of our fish and game. He thought the state has done a good job in the past and he would like to see them continue. Number 541 DAN HASKINS, Alaska Bowhunters Association, said they have a membership of approximately 840. They supported SJR 19 wholeheartedly and would work with them to help push it through. LEON METZ, Alaska Trappers Association, said they have a wide cross section of membership. They adamantly oppose management of the state's fish and game by the federal government. The consequences of bad federal management can be seen on the Kenai Peninsula, he said, referring to their wolf population being full of lice. He said the wildlife populations need to be managed for the residents of the state and the wildlife populations themselves. They wholeheartedly supported SJR 19. MERLE WALFORD, Homer Charter Association, said they voted unanimously to support SJR 19. He said that the South Peninsula Sportsman's Association unanimously supported SJR 19, also. Wildlife resources of Alaska belong to the people of the state and, therefore, should be managed by the state. Federal takeover of game management would be a disaster. If the federal government can't get a handle on the tremendous by-catch problem, how can they possibly manage our inland fisheries, he commented. They have completely mismanaged the Atlantic fisheries; there is nothing left there. TAPE 95-39, SIDE B Number 590 ED MARSTERS, Matanuska Valley Sportsmen, supported SJR 19. He said this association is one of the original founders of the Old Alaska Wildlife Federation Sportsmen's Council. He said the Valley Sportsmen are deeply concerned over federal encroachment on traditional state units. SJR 19 is a positive and necessary first step to reestablishing state management. They are not opposed to legitimate subsistence needs, however, they do not support unreasonable, discriminatory guidelines. ANILCA in its current form does exactly that. Management of our resources by the federal government will only lead to increased decision-making by those who have no understanding of our problems and who are far removed from Alaska's citizens. They foresee increased social strife. Asking congress to reaffirm its original intent by clarifying the definition of "public lands" will begin the process of moving back toward sound scientific management and solutions to our allocative problems. Number 552 JIM REARDON, retired fish and game person, said Senator Miller invited him to provide a little history of the south central area and this issue. He said he was a resident of Alaska for 45 years and has been professionally involved with Alaska's fish and game since 1947. He strongly supported SJR 19; positive action on it could head off disaster for Alaska's fish and game. He was certain Alaska's delegation to Congress would not have voted for ANILCA if the intent was federal preemption of management of Alaska's fish and game. Alaskans who think that federal management will benefit the subsistence priority are dead wrong. When he was a member of the Board of Game, every possible effort was made to provide for the subsistence priority of rural residents. It was the second highest priority of the Board coming only after the primary responsibility which is to conserve the resource. The Board developed more kinds of subsistence standards than with any other single issue. No federal agency could have done better. History provides a ready answer if you ask what we could expect under federal management. He illustrated this point with a story from 1960 when Governor Eagan addressed the first legislature. Governor Egan said, "On January 1 of this year, Alaska's Department of Fish and Game was handed the degraded remnants of what was once a rich and prolific fishery. From a peak of three quarters of a billion pounds in 1936 (which is over 100 million salmon), production dropped in 1959 to its lowest in 60 years. On these ruins of a once great resource, the Department must rebuild. That last year of federal control, 1959, Alaska's salmon catch amounted to 25 million fish." Now after 35 years of state management, in 1994, the catch was 194 million fish. This is a spectacular conservation achievement. Details of the federal debacle are spelled out in a book called Politics in Conservation by Dr. Richard Cooley and Mr. Reardon strongly recommended reading this. MR. REARDON said he was a sonar operator in the U.S. Navy and in 1961 he proposed the idea of counting salmon with sonar. Today Alaska has salmon counters in virtually every major salmon stream. This is only one break through the state has made. By far the most important difference in state and federal management has been the field authority delegated to the state's area biologists. This allows flexibility in the constant effort to achieve balance between catch and escapement. This is not the federal way. He used an example of an incident at Port Dick when a closure was announced and as the boats were leaving, thousands of salmon were arriving. The fish were never harvested, because the federal government management system could not respond in time. DON POOLE, Alaska Bow Hunters Association, said they had 800 - 900 members and supported SJR 19. SENATOR LEMAN announced a recess at 10:15 a.m. - 10:38 a.m. CHARLES DANIEL, Kenai, supported SJR 19. He thought ADF&G is doing a good job of managing our resources. Number 389 DALE BONDURANT said he is a 47-year resident of Alaska and considers SJR 19 as a subsistence fight as well as a state's rights fight. He believes all Alaskans should be treated equally. He thinks we should tell the federal government to go to hell. The Alaska Constitution says that a priority right for an exclusive classification is unconstitutional. MR. BONDURANT said the legislature made a half-hearted political challenge to carry the ball when the Governor dropped it because it was too hot. The judge took the ball away and the legislature....went home crying. They now refuse to challenge the court with ANILCA, Title 8. SJR 19 is a half-hearted attempt that will end in a hollow victory and is only a detour to ending the rural solution. He does not oppose SJR 19 on its merit, but he does not support another round of taking orders from Judge Holland. Repeal ANILCA, Title 8, he said. BRAD AMES supported SJR 19, knowing that it was not a cure. Everyone can see the disastrous consequences of dividing Alaskans up into individual groups and attempting to serve each of their needs. If the federal government insists on dictating terms to the mandated constitutional protectors of the fish and game around the state, then we might as well not have a state. STEVE VANEK, Ninilchik resident, said he gets to subsistence hunt and fish on federal lands, but he doesn't think he should do this on state and private lands on the Peninsula. He asked, "Are we to be a state in name only?" Federal management cannot adequately assess stocks or be on top of what is going on in local areas. In response to Senator Lincoln, he said, that the fact of whether the State's Constitution is amended or not does not alter the fact that the language in ANILCA needs to be clarified. If the public lands designation is in question at this juncture, it will still be in question whether the Constitution is amended or not. This resolution does not affect subsistence since it doesn't change the status quo. SENATOR LEMAN asked if he thought he should be given a priority on federal land. MR. VANEK said, personally, he didn't think the Peninsula was the same as bush areas. He didn't think it was a necessity at all there. Number 216 SENATOR LINCOLN said that Senator Stevens said it was up to Alaskans to build consensus on the whole issue of fish and game management and not leave it up to our congressional delegation to do that for us. She did not think SJR 19 was a way to build consensus. It is more divisive than anything else. She thought all Alaskans should sit down together and come up with a solution. MR. VANEK responded that he thought that the wording in ANILCA needed clarification whether or not Alaskans reach a consensus. THEO MATTHEWS, Executive Director, United Cook Inlet Drift Association, supported SJR 19. It's a clear statement of the state's rights and ability to manage fish and game for all users. SJR 19 does not challenge the concept of state or federal subsistence. Rural legislators need to realize the federal law is simply inadequate. Urban legislators recognize the subsistence privilege is not a preference that is viable for their constituents. We need to amend the federal law to make it so that it does not systematically challenge other uses of the resources and will protect the interests and villages users who are so dependent. The third resolve is particularly important, because one of the issues is that even if you win the right to manage on navigable waters, ANILCA is bound not to allow Alaskans to extend our arms into state waters and lands. He said the legislature, first and foremost, must adequately fund the management of our resources. It's embarrassing for us to go to the feds and say you can't manage because you don't have the expertise. TAPE 95-40, SIDE A Number 001 There are a number of state issues that need to be dealt with like mixed stock management, how far down-stream must you go, the Where 2 issue, the Endangered Species Act, the definitions that are used in ANILCA, like defining "rural," "customary and traditional," "reasonable opportunity," and, then if necessary, amend the State Constitution. No court has ever said that all Alaskans must be subsistence users, MR. MATTHEWS said. SENATOR LEMAN noted that the 1992 subsistence law expires in October 1995 so that action must be taken this year. SEYMOUR MILLS said he has been here since 1963. He wasn't happy with the feds, but he didn't think SJR 19 was the solution either. He didn't care for ANILCA at all. He didn't believe in giving legitimacy to an illegitimate act and ANILCA is illegitimate. The feds do not have jurisdiction unless we give it to them, he said. MR. MILLS said that war has been declared on the state by the feds and we have to address it in that manner. Things have to be drafted that have teeth in them. We have to start throwing out these federal mandates. The Statehood Compact does not address equal footing which works against us. The equal footing doctrine was established under the Northwest Ordinance of 1787. It says that all states should enter the union on equal footing with the originals in all respects, whatsoever. Citizens of this state don't have equals; they don't have the rights to their resources. He supported CS FOR SENATE JOINT RESOLUTION NO. 6(RES) Relating to federally held property in those states, including Alaska, admitted to the Union since 1802 and HOUSE CS FOR SENATE JOINT RESOLUTION NO. 7(STA) Relating to mandates imposed on the states by the federal government, because the feds are trespassing. Number 127 GARY SUPERMAN supported Mr. Mills testimony challenging the federal right to be here in Alaska. More and more people are working to restore a constitutional republic with sovereign states, individuals, and, even, sovereign tribes. Our Statehood Compact is a fraud, he said. We have no equal footing and we have no republican form of government. The feds control more of our land than we do in direct violation of constitutional law. We must challenge the feds at every opportunity. ANILCA, he said, overrules Alaska's State Constitution, Article 1, Section 15; Article 8, Section 14 and 16; and is an unlawful extension of Article 12, Section 12. SJR 19 is another statement of disgust. Let's support it for what it is. It will help to further the dialogue and educate a few more people to get involved. Number 208 AL FRANZMAN supported SJR 6, SJR 7, and SJR 19 as a start. He adamantly opposed amending our Constitution to comply with ANILCA. As a former member of the Board of Game, he said that dual management of our wildlife resources will not work. ELAINA SPRAKER, a 25-year resident of Alaska, supported SJR 19. She is the wife of a state wildlife biologist. It's difficult for her to understand why the federal government persists in trying to take over management of Alaska fish and wildlife resources that were granted to us by our State Constitution. The federal government does not have the trained professionals to provide a high standard of resource management that the state already has in place nor does it provide for public input. It is time for Alaskans to fight for what is best for our state and all its people. She urged the committee to go forth and amend ANILCA. GARY HULL supported SJR 19 saying that most of the reasons have been stated already. We don't need the federal government to do a poor job. Number 276 DEBRA HORNE, speaking on behalf of herself and her family, supported SJR 19. She thought it was a very important message to send to Congress and said the federal government should not assume the duties of any authority that belongs to the State of Alaska by the Statehood Compact, and, more importantly, the U.S. Constitution. ANILCA should be amended to concisely prohibit preemption of state jurisdiction on state and private lands and waters. JOE SCHWAB said he was a 5-day resident of Alaska. He is a retired Oregon State Police Fish and Wildlife Enforcement Officer with 25 years experience on the Columbia River. "If anybody wants to see about or hear about a damaged river, a mismanaged river, it's the Columbia River," he said. He dealt with enforcement of subsistence, sport, and commercial regulations and it was a nightmare of federal intervention. He thought the only hope for that river would be a huge hatchery below Bonneville Dam. The experience he has in working with federal agencies is that they do not have the manpower to enforce regulations and that is their biggest problem. They rely on the user to enforce themselves. State agencies react to local needs and concerns. SJR 19 retains state control and allows orderly logical use of resources. Arbitrary boundaries do not work when managing wildlife. Entire ecosystems must be managed to maintain a wildlife population. MICHAEL CRUGER, Galena resident, opposed SJR 19. He said Galena had lost 25% of its population in 10 years. Most of those people moved to the city to enjoy the amenities the city has to offer. Those in Galena have made their choice to stay closer to God and all they ask is to have first crack at state fish and game since they live closer to mother nature. He stated that he pays taxes for urban paved roads and city sewage which his town doesn't even have. He said they live without a lot more than people in the city do, so he did not think that he was being selfish. He told (urban dwellers, in general) that you can't have the best of both worlds. He remarked about the few teleconference sites for this meeting. SENATOR LEMAN noted that there were at least 20 different sites across Alaska that were scheduled to testify on Monday. He has broken down the time slots so the committee could receive testimony from every area. SENATOR LEMAN asked Mr. Cruger how SJR 19 affects him and the other people in Galena from participating in subsistence and other lifestyle activities that are so important to them. MR. CRUGER said the feds were going along with them and he didn't know how to solve this problem. It seemed to him that whenever the majority gets a decision everyone can live with, the minority takes it to court and the court throws it out. SENATOR MILLER asked him if he would rather have state management or federal management. MR. CRUGER replied that he would rather have state management, because we live here, but it looks like the state wants to make it equal. So it was a very confusing issue, he reiterated. JOE JOLLY said he was a resident of the Kenai Peninsula and a commercial fisherman. He supported SJR 19, because it was a start in the right direction. He thought that a lot more needed to be done. Number 483 CHARLIE PARKER said he is a 34-year resident of Alaska and he wanted to put in a good word for the federal government. He said they have every right to make their own rules on their own lands. The land doesn't belong to Alaskans, it belongs to all Americans and it should be managed on their behalf. Alaskans should not have any special privileges to manage federal lands. He said the federal government has been very generous to us since statehood and he urged that we keep that perspective in mind. He said the only land we have jurisdiction over is land that we own which was a gift from the federal government. MR. PARKER said he opposed amending our State Constitution to allow rural subsistence priority. He believed that fish and game is a common property of all the people. He thought withdrawing the lawsuit challenging the federal government's definition of rural subsistence priority was a mistake. Number 532 GARY CADD, Kenai resident, said in 1980 Congress passed a bill which was ANILCA. After that the federal government said that we had to change our State Constitution and this is crooked legislation. We made an agreement with the federal government in 1958 and the federal government is coming back and saying we should change that agreement. He did not think Alaska got a fair shake when we became a state. We need to stand for what is right for Alaskans. SENATOR LEMAN thanked everyone for their testimony and adjourned the meeting at 11:55 p.m.