SENATE RESOURCES COMMITTEE April 5, 1995 3:45 p.m MEMBERS PRESENT Senator Loren Leman, Chairman Senator Drue Pearce, Vice Chairman Senator Steve Frank Senator Rick Halford Senator Robin Taylor Senator Georgianna Lincoln Senator Lyman Hoffman COMMITTEE CALENDAR CONFIRMATION HEARINGS Board of Game: Walter Sampson & Larry Holmes, Jr. Board of Fisheries: Trefon Angasan & Dr. John White SRES - 4/5/95 SJR 20 (COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT FISHING QUOTAS) was scheduled but not taken up on this date. WITNESS REGISTER Walter Sampson, Governor's Appointee to the Board of Game P.O. Box 1088, Kotzebue, AK 99752¶265-4100 Larry Holmes, Jr., Governor's Appointee to the Board of Game P.O. Box 454, Girdwood, AK 99587¶783-2845 Patrick Wright Anchorage, AK POSITION STATEMENT: supports nominees to the Board of Game Trefon Angasan, Governor's Appointee to the Board of Fisheries P.O. Box 100220, Anchorage, AK 99510¶842-2240 Dr. John White, Governor's Appointee to the Board of Fisheries P.O. Box 190, Bethel, AK 99559¶543-2926 Ben Ellis Kenai River Sportsfishing P.O. Box 1228, Soldotna, AK ¶262-8588 POSITION STATEMENT: supports nominees to the Board of Fisheries ACTION NARRATIVE TAPE 95-35, SIDE A Number 001 CHAIRMAN LEMAN called the Senate Resources Committee meeting to order at 3:45 p.m. The chairman noted that the committee does not have a quorum, so they will begin by taking testimony. The chairman called Mr. Sampson to testify first. Number 015 WALTER SAMPSON, Appointee to the Board of Game, stated he is testifying from Anchorage. CHAIRMAN LEMAN noted that the committee now has a quorum. Number 035 MR. SAMPSON reviewed his work and life experiences. Number 100 MR. SAMPSON stated he sees a need to involve the public. He has had a lot of contact with people around the state, due to his work experiences, and thinks he understands the needs of residents. Start at the bottom with the planning process, and involve everyone: doing so will give people respect for the decisions that are made. Number 150 CHAIRMAN LEMAN asked Mr. Sampson what his philosophy is regarding intensive game management. Number 155 MR. SAMPSON responded he would like to see a public process in place to get an understanding about how the public feels about intensive game management. Number 195 LARRY HOLMES, Appointee to the Board of Game, testifying from Girdwood, reviewed his work and life experiences. SENATOR TAYLOR asked Mr. Holmes if he has any ideas for solving the wolf-control problem. MR. HOLMES responded that is a really difficult issue. All wildlife use needs must be met: tourism, sport hunting, subsistence hunting, commercial, and big-game hunting. He thinks there are places where we need to physically manage wildlife for consumptive use, and there are areas we need to set aside for wildlife watching and tourism. There are also places where Mr. Holmes thinks those uses are compatible and not mutually exclusive. We need to create an atmosphere where everyone can come to the table and work toward a common goal, instead of bouncing back and forth. Mr. Holmes is not concerned with what out-of-state interests think, but he does think we should work with all in-state interests. Number 275 SENATOR TAYLOR urged Mr. Holmes to exercise discretion in predator control. Senator Taylor does not believe public opinion has anything to do with biological stewardship. A board which acts only with public consensus has no leadership abilities. Number 288 MR. HOLMES agreed with Senator Taylor. But he does think it is the responsibility of the board to incorporate a public process. The board must then make the final decision. However, it is difficult to make decisions without the proper information. The board needs to work with ADF&G in order to get the information it needs. Number 304 SENATOR PEARCE asked Mr. Holmes if the board is comfortable with the information it is receiving from ADF&G. Number 310 MR. HOLMES responded, "Yes, and no." There are times when the board receives a good history of information from areas, and times when it doesn't. From his background in biology and agriculture, he does see areas where the board is not given enough information to make a good decision. Number 335 SENATOR PEARCE expressed frustration with the lengthy list of projects, surveys, and data coming from ADF&G, because it seems like a lot of the information simply drops into a black hole. She asked Mr. Holmes if he has any specific suggestions for making the process more efficient. Number 349 MR. HOLMES thinks regional meetings might make the board more efficient. The board is going to discuss this possibility soon. The board is also considering holding these regional meetings at more rural locations. Number 360 SENATOR LINCOLN asked Mr. Holmes if his employer is going to have a problem with the amount of time he is going to have to spend on board duties. MR. HOLMES responded that his employer has been accepting and supportive of his appointment. They have offered to replace Mr. Holmes with a temporary worker while he attends meetings. Number 385 PATRICK WRIGHT, testifying from Anchorage, stated he supports Mr. Sampson and Mr. Holmes as nominees to the Board of Game. Number 430 TREFON ANGASAN, Appointee to the Board of Fisheries, testifying from Anchorage, reviewed his work and life experiences. Mr. Angasan believes that though the board process is rather cumbersome, it is fair to the public. Number 460 MR. ANGASAN suggested that proposals to the board be pre-approved by local advisory committees. He believes that board decisions should be based upon the best available information and public testimony. Number 490 SENATOR HALFORD asked Mr. Angasan where he would add or subtract $1,000,000 from ADF&G's budget, if he had that ability. Number 494 MR. ANGASAN replied the board really does not focus on the department's role, other than as a provider of information. However, if he could add $1,000,000, he would put it into research: specifically, gsi (genetic stock identification) studies. Number 509 SENATOR TAYLOR expressed concern over whether the board process is appropriate, and whether there should be concern regarding regional representation on the board. Number 513 MR. ANGASAN responded that the three-year cycles the board goes through can cause a rapid loss of identity. He stated one of the things he quickly learned was to put on blinders and forget about what is going on in one's region, in order to focus on the agenda before the board. Regional representation simply provides a broad mix on the board, but does not carry through to the agenda of the board. If a board member is going to represent the public and the issues fairly, then there won't be any skeletons in the closet. Number 530 SENATOR TAYLOR asked Mr. Angasan if there are any other commercial fishermen on the board. MR. ANGASAN responded that Mr. Jacobsen from Sand Point holds an area M seine permit. Mr. Angasan is a commercial fisherman from Bristol Bay, and holds a drift salmon permit. Dr. White holds a permit from the AYK fishery. Two of the six board members are active commercial fishermen. Number 542 SENATOR TAYLOR commented he is troubled by that, and is not willing to turn the board over to a group of "sportsfishermen, advocacy, or geographical representation." Senator Taylor stated he supports Mr. Angasan's nomination, but doesn't believe there should be two members from Bethel. MR. ANGASAN replied that there are not two representatives from Bethel. There is a broad mix of members. Mr. Angasan agrees with Senator Taylor that there should be a broad mix of people on the board. Number 564 SENATOR LINCOLN asked Mr. Angasan to follow up on his comment regarding board decisions being based upon the best available information provided by ADF&G. Do you think the information the board is receiving is reliable and accurate? Do you think the sonar systems are effective? Number 573 MR. ANGASAN responded that in many instances, the information received is quite extensive. However, some information can be taken out of context, so there is the perception that there is misinformation from the department. But as a whole, the information the board receives is good, solid data upon which decisions can be based. TAPE 95-35, SIDE B Number 595 MR. ANGASAN stated that, in some cases, there is a need for more information. In regard to sonar systems, there have been some problems with counts. New technology is being developed, which seems to be an improvement. Number 586 SENATOR HOFFMAN asked Mr. Angasan if he has any ideas regarding halting the outflow of commercial fishing permits to ownership in the lower-forty-eight. Number 582 MR. ANGASAN responded it is unfortunate that when the limited-entry law was passed, there was no non-transferability clause included. In the future, the state may be managing a fishery that is owned by residents of Oregon and Washington. SENATOR HOFFMAN asked Mr. Angasan if he sees anything the state can do to try to reverse that trend. MR. ANGASAN replied that the CDQ program funded a permit brokering position to help find resident buyers for people wishing to sell permits. SENATOR HALFORD asked Mr. Angasan if he would support legislation that had a delayed effective date of say, ten years, which would repeal the transferability of limited entry permits, thereby devaluing those permits over time. No one would lose a permit. Those permits would come back to the state through an apprenticeship program. MR. ANGASAN responded that is what they advocated in the beginning. He would certainly support such legislation. He thinks that is a good idea, and there is no reason to have any value on permits. There is no way for a young person in a village to acquire a permit, even though many young people have a lot of fishing experience, because of the high value of limited entry permits. SENATOR HALFORD noted that the approximate value of all the limited entry permits is estimated at 1.1 billion dollars. The fishing industry is paying debt service on 1.1 billion dollars, which serves no one, except a piece of paper. Number 533 DR. JOHN WHITE, Appointee to the Board of Fisheries, testifying from Anchorage, reviewed his work and life experiences. Number 508 DR. WHITE stated he wants to serve on the board to help salvage one of the best regulatory management systems in the United States. The board is at a crisis juncture, and something has to change. The public has to believe in the process, and there will have to be a change of attitude in board members, the public, and industry. The attitude that has developed is that the board functions as an arbiter. The next thing that occurs is that problems go to court and are mired down, so that the board becomes mired down in inter- regulatory hearings. Solutions will have to be found for this problem. Dr. White does not think increased political pressure or judicial intervention is the solution for this problem. He thinks the solution lies with the industry and the primary users. Working groups and task force groups made up of those people can help solve the problems the board is facing. Dr. White believes the board process is in jeopardy, and thinks the board should operate more like a corporate board. Number 460 CHAIRMAN LEMAN asked Dr. White how he would approach some of the fisheries that are in conflict with one another. DR. WHITE thinks it is necessary to have good science. One of the constraints ADF&G has is a fiscal constraint. But the users also need to agree on the science. The solution would be to have task forces agree on the science that will be used to make decisions. Number 441 SENATOR TAYLOR expressed concern that the board is burning out qualified members because of the large amount of time required to serve. He asked Dr. White if there should be regional boards, professional boards, or longer terms for board members. Should the board be restructured in any way? Number 430 DR. WHITE responded that public involvement is both a strength and a weakness of the board process. One solution to the board's time being used up by extensive public testimony would be to hire a hearing officer to streamline the testimony. The board also needs good planners and good mediators. Number 407 SENATOR LINCOLN asked Dr. White to explain his comment that the board should look for solutions over a five-year time frame. She thinks there should be longer-term planning than five years. Number 394 DR. WHITE agreed with Senator Lincoln regarding longer-term planning. Number 386 SENATOR HALFORD asked Dr. White if he has any idea how we could get user groups to fund studies they need. DR. WHITE replied the current problem is that research is done; the research is debunked; then more research is done, etcetera, etcetera. It is a never ending cycle. One possible solution would be to get the contentious parties to agree on the studies to be done, before any research is conducted. SENATOR HALFORD asked how that would be done. DR. WHITE thinks that should happen in a task-force situation. Number 337 SENATOR HALFORD commented that what we are getting now is advocacy science. We end up with information that no one believes, whether it is true or not. DR. WHITE sees it as an industry tax, because the industry ends up supporting it. It is a cost of doing business and is very inefficient. Number 318 SENATOR PEARCE asked Dr. White if the board could be structured differently, so that the board could decide what research will be done. Number 306 DR. WHITE doesn't know if that would help. He thinks the users would continue to disagree with the decisions of the board. He thinks the users, the board, and the department, in a mediated task-force forum, should make the decisions jointly. The decisions will not be any easier, but it will be a more efficient system, and people will be more willing to accept the decisions that are made, if they are involved in deciding on the studies. Number 287 SENATOR PEARCE commented she has seen many examples where that type of forum has not worked. DR. WHITE stated that the success of the involvement of mediators is still contingent upon the parties being able to accept what the mediator has to say. Number 268 SENATOR TAYLOR asked how we could return to a more politically stable board. Number 245 DR. WHITE replied that the board is having problems with political and judicial manipulation. The board has historically functioned well. Dr. White believes a fisherman's board is very important, and he does not believe in a professional board. There needs to be planning and ancillary professional expertise. Number 216 SENATOR PEARCE disagreed. She thinks they may have different definitions of "professional board member." She does not think board members should be active participants in the industry, because that causes a strong conflict of interest. She asks why Dr. White thinks his experience makes him a better board member than a full-time, professional board member might be. Number 195 DR. WHITE doesn't know where Senator Pearce would find these full- time, professional board members. SENATOR PEARCE responded they would find these people in the same manner they find the Oil & Gas Conservation Commission members, the Limited Entry Commission members, and the Alaska Public Utilities Commission members, among others. CHAIRMAN LEMAN commented he sees dollar signs. SENATOR LINCOLN stated she did too. SENATOR PEARCE asked if the state wasn't spending money on the boards today. CHAIRMAN LEMAN stated we aren't spending that much money. SENATOR PEARCE disagreed. Number 140 BEN ELLIS, Executive Director of Kenai River Sportsfishing, stated he supports both nominees to the Board of Fisheries. Number 114 CHAIRMAN LEMAN asked Mr. Ellis if he was implying by his testimony that Ms. Andrews and Ms. Lyons were unintelligent board members. Is an intelligent approach only an approach with which Mr. Ellis agrees? MR. ELLIS replied he did not mean to cast aspersions on the intelligence of Ms. Andrews or Ms. Lyons. Mr. Ellis stated also that he was not implying that the only intelligent approach was one with which he agreed: there are issues on which he does not hold the same opinion as Mr. Angasan and Dr. White. Number 085 SENATOR TAYLOR asked Mr. Ellis what effect he thinks there will be on the Kenai River sportsfishery from the recent proposal [?] before the subsistence board. MR. ELLIS responded that it could be devastating. SENATOR TAYLOR asked Mr. Ellis if he thinks the state might ever have to place restrictions on sportsfishermen on the Kenai River. MR. ELLIS responded that if it is a matter of conservation, sportsfishermen would definitely support restrictions. Number 067 SENATOR HALFORD asked if sportsfishermen would support restrictions as an allocation measure. MR. ELLIS thinks that is a completely different issue. He doesn't think sportsfishermen would agree to restrictions as an allocation measure, when Cook Inlet commercial fishermen are already taking ninety some odd percent of the resource. Number 054 SENATOR HALFORD stated he would agree with Mr. Ellis' position, if we were referring to resident sportsfishermen who were catching their winter freezer load. But he doesn't support non-residents catching their motorhome load to take Outside and sell. Number 045 MR. ELLIS stated his organization would be 100% in support of addressing that issue, because that is something they do not support, either. SENATOR TAYLOR agreed that is a significant problem which should be addressed. CHAIRMAN LEMAN thinks some of that fish does enter the commercial market. SENATOR HALFORD expressed the opinion that the personal use fishery is for Alaska residents, and that sportsfishing could have different limits than the personal use fishery. SENATOR TAYLOR and MR. ELLIS both agreed with Senator Halford. TAPE 95-36, SIDE A Number 020 CHAIRMAN LEMAN announced that SJR 20 would be held over until Friday's committee meeting. Number 032 CHAIRMAN LEMAN adjourned the Senate Resources Committee meeting at 5:20 p.m.