ALASKA STATE LEGISLATURE
SENATE JUDICIARY STANDING COMMITTEE
April 23, 2004
8:10 a.m.
TAPE(S) 04-51
MEMBERS PRESENT
Senator Ralph Seekins, Chair
Senator Scott Ogan, Vice Chair
Senator Gene Therriault
Senator Johnny Ellis
Senator Hollis French
MEMBERS ABSENT
All members present
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
HOUSE BILL NO. 378
"An Act relating to the Alaska Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act,
including sales, advertising, certain devices, food donors, and
food banks; making certain violations of organic food provisions
and of the Alaska Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act unfair methods of
competition and unfair or deceptive acts or practices under
certain of the state's unfair trade practices and consumer
protection laws; and providing for an effective date."
MOVED HB 378 OUT OF COMMITTEE
SENATE BILL NO. 246
"An Act relating to the commission of an offense or a juvenile
delinquency act involving the victim's race, sex, color, creed,
physical or mental disability, sexual orientation, ancestry, or
national origin; relating to sentencing, informal adjustment,
and adjudication for those offenses and acts; relating to a
diversity tolerance program for certain juvenile delinquency
acts; relating to a civil cause of action for certain acts
involving discriminatory harassment; and providing for an
effective date."
SCHEDULED BUT NOT HEARD
CS FOR HOUSE BILL NO. 514(FIN) am
"An Act relating to child support modification and enforcement,
to the establishment of paternity by the child support
enforcement agency, and to the crimes of criminal nonsupport and
aiding the nonpayment of child support; amending Rule 90.3,
Alaska Rules of Civil Procedure; and providing for an effective
date."
HEARD AND HELD
PREVIOUS COMMITTEE ACTION
BILL: HB 378
SHORT TITLE: FOOD, DRUGS, COSMETICS, CERTAIN DEVICES
SPONSOR(s): FINANCE
01/12/04 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS
01/12/04 (H) HES, JUD
02/05/04 (H) HES AT 3:00 PM CAPITOL 106
02/05/04 (H) Moved Out of Committee
02/05/04 (H) MINUTE(HES)
02/09/04 (H) HES RPT 2DP 1DNP 2NR
02/09/04 (H) DP: SEATON, WILSON; DNP: WOLF;
02/09/04 (H) NR: GATTO, COGHILL
02/09/04 (H) FIN REFERRAL ADDED AFTER JUD
02/23/04 (H) JUD AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 120
02/23/04 (H) Moved Out of Committee
02/23/04 (H) MINUTE(JUD)
02/24/04 (H) JUD RPT 1DP 3NR 1AM
02/24/04 (H) DP: MCGUIRE; NR: HOLM, GARA, SAMUELS;
02/24/04 (H) AM: GRUENBERG
03/02/04 (H) FIN AT 1:30 PM HOUSE FINANCE 519
03/02/04 (H) Moved Out of Committee
03/02/04 (H) MINUTE(FIN)
03/03/04 (H) FIN RPT 4DP 6NR
03/03/04 (H) DP: MEYER, FATE, FOSTER, WILLIAMS;
03/03/04 (H) NR: HAWKER, STOLTZE, JOULE, CROFT,
03/03/04 (H) MOSES, HARRIS
04/01/04 (H) GRUENBERG CHANGED JUD RPT TO DP UC
04/05/04 (H) TRANSMITTED TO (S)
04/05/04 (H) VERSION: HB 378
04/06/04 (S) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS
04/06/04 (S) STA, JUD, FIN
04/20/04 (S) STA AT 3:30 PM BELTZ 211
04/20/04 (S) Moved HB 378 Out of Committee
04/20/04 (S) MINUTE(STA)
04/21/04 (S) STA RPT 1DP 2NR
04/21/04 (S) NR: STEVENS G, STEDMAN; DP: COWDERY
04/23/04 (S) JUD AT 8:00 AM BUTROVICH 205
BILL: HB 514
SHORT TITLE: CHILD SUPPORT ENFORCEMENT/ CRIMES
SPONSOR(s): REPRESENTATIVE(s) KOTT
02/16/04 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS
02/16/04 (H) JUD
02/23/04 (H) JUD AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 120
02/23/04 (H) Heard & Held
02/23/04 (H) MINUTE(JUD)
02/27/04 (H) JUD AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 120
02/27/04 (H) Moved CSHB 514(JUD) Out of Committee
02/27/04 (H) MINUTE(JUD)
03/03/04 (H) JUD RPT CS(JUD) 5DP
03/03/04 (H) DP: GARA, SAMUELS, GRUENBERG, OGG,
03/03/04 (H) MCGUIRE
03/03/04 (H) FIN REFERRAL ADDED AFTER JUD
03/08/04 (H) FIN AT 1:30 PM HOUSE FINANCE 519
03/08/04 (H) Heard & Held
03/08/04 (H) MINUTE(FIN)
03/23/04 (H) FIN AT 1:30 PM HOUSE FINANCE 519
03/23/04 (H) Moved CSHB 514(FIN) Out of Committee
03/23/04 (H) MINUTE(FIN)
03/24/04 (H) FIN RPT CS(FIN) 4DP 3NR 2AM
03/24/04 (H) DP: HAWKER, FOSTER, FATE, WILLIAMS;
03/24/04 (H) NR: JOULE, CHENAULT, HARRIS;
03/24/04 (H) AM: STOLTZE, CROFT
03/31/04 (H) TRANSMITTED TO (S)
03/31/04 (H) VERSION: CSHB 514(FIN) AM
04/01/04 (S) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS
04/01/04 (S) JUD, FIN
04/16/04 (S) JUD AT 8:00 AM BUTROVICH 205
04/16/04 (S) Scheduled But Not Heard
04/19/04 (S) JUD AT 8:00 AM BUTROVICH 205
04/19/04 (S) Heard & Held
04/19/04 (S) MINUTE(JUD)
04/20/04 (S) JUD AT 8:00 AM BUTROVICH 205
04/20/04 (S) Heard & Held
04/20/04 (S) MINUTE(JUD)
04/21/04 (S) JUD AT 8:00 AM BUTROVICH 205
04/21/04 (S) Bill Postponed To 4/23/04
04/23/04 (S) JUD AT 8:00 AM BUTROVICH 205
WITNESS REGISTER
Representative Bill Williams
Alaska State Capitol
Juneau, AK 99801-1182
POSITION STATEMENT: Sponsor of HB 378
Commissioner Ernesta Ballard
Department of Environmental Conservation
410 Willoughby
Juneau, AK 99801-1795
POSITION STATEMENT: Supports and answered questions about HB 378
Ms. Kristin Ryan
Division of Environmental Health
Department of Environmental Conservation
410 Willoughby
Juneau, AK 99801-1795
POSITION STATEMENT: Answered questions about HB 378
Mr. John Main
Staff to Representative Kott
Alaska State Capitol
Juneau, AK 99801-1182
POSITION STATEMENT: Answered questions about HB 514
Mr. John Mallonee
Child Support Enforcement Division
Department of Revenue
PO Box 110400
Juneau, AK 99811-0400
POSITION STATEMENT: Answered questions about CSED and HB 514
Ms. Landa Bailey
Special Assistant
Department of Revenue
PO Box 110400
Juneau, AK 99811-0400
POSITION STATEMENT: Answered questions regarding HB 514
Ms. Diane Wendlandt
Department of Law
PO Box 110300
Juneau, AK 99811-0300
POSITION STATEMENT: Answered questions regarding HB 514
ACTION NARRATIVE
TAPE 04-51, SIDE A
CHAIR RALPH SEEKINS called the Senate Judiciary Standing
Committee meeting to order at 8:10 a.m. Senators French, Ogan,
Ellis and Chair Seekins were present. The committee took up HB
378.
HB 378-FOOD, DRUGS, COSMETICS, CERTAIN DEVICES
REPRESENTATIVE BILL WILLIAMS, co-chair of the House Finance
Committee, sponsor of HB 378, told members that he has sat on
the House Finance subcommittee on the Department of
Environmental Conservation (DEC) for the last six years. One
thing he has continually heard during that time is that DEC's
food inspection program could sustain no more budget cuts and
continue to do inspections. Restaurant and bar owners complain
about the high fees they are paying; those fees were originally
$50 per year and are now about $450 per year, yet fewer
inspections are being done. The waitlist for an inspection is 18
months to two years. Unaware that the Alaska Constitution
requires the legislature to provide for the protection of the
public health, he asked the administration to discontinue the
service three years ago since people were paying for a service
they were not getting. That administration refused. When the
current administration came in, he again asked that food
inspection program be discontinued and was told it could not do
so because of the constitutional requirement.
REPRESENTATIVE WILLIAMS said that HB 378 will require DEC to
inspect for unsafe holding temperatures, inadequate cooking,
food from unsafe sources, contaminated equipment, and poor
personal hygiene. DEC has set up a program that allows facility
owners to do the inspections, which DEC will monitor. He said he
hopes the food inspection program fees decrease as a result of
HB 378.
COMMISSIONER ERNESTA BALLARD, DEC, told members that HB 378 will
give DEC the statutory authority to run a new program to replace
its under-funded and failing consultative inspection program,
which is simply inadequate to the scope and size of Alaska. Over
the last two decades, DEC's best performance has been to inspect
60 percent of the high-risk restaurants in the state once per
year. It is important to acknowledge that the current inspection
program is not a regulatory program and does not achieve the
protection or relationship that DEC maintains with all of its
other regulated industries. HB 378 will replace the outdated and
failed program with an adequately funded and comprehensive
regulatory program that is modeled after successful programs. It
will work because it addresses the three, well-documented causes
of food borne illness: poor personal hygiene, inadequate
attention to temperature and cooking procedures, and inadequate
training. The consequences of failure in these three areas are
unacceptable. Illness and death from contaminated food is the
direct result of an incident of poor performance and is not
accidental. DEC knows how to prevent contamination and the
spread of infection. She reminded members that an outbreak
recently occurred in McGrath during the Iditarod and followed
the race down the trail. Before the mushers arrived in Nome, 78
cases of Norovirus were documented. The Division of
Environmental Health took precautionary measures so that there
was not a single outbreak in Nome.
COMMISSIONER BALLARD explained that the new program relies on
three elements: training and certification of a knowledgeable
workforce; managing risks and food handling through standard
operating procedures; and enforcement. The failed program was
designed for the pre-World War II era, when 20 million meals
were served in restaurants per day nationwide. Today, the
American Restaurant Association estimates 70 billion meals will
be served in restaurants every day nationwide.
SENATOR OGAN asked if any businesses that serve food will be
exempted, such as a remote fishing lodge or a guide out in the
field who serves meals.
MS. KRISTIN RYAN, Director of the Division of Environmental
Health, DEC, told Senator Ogan that the division has not yet
studied that level of detail in determining how it will
implement the new food safety system. The fundamental concept of
the program is that the responsibility for safe food handling
will lie with the owner/operator and food handler, since those
people will be serving the food year-round. The program has an
advisory board of regulated industry and other members who have
been helping to design the framework of the new program. Once
DEC is ready to promulgate regulations, it will address the
finer details of implementation using a process called
negotiated rule making. In that process, industry participants
will sit down with the division and help design the regulations
so that they address the problems without creating an undue
burden on the industry.
SENATOR OGAN noted that at a small lodge, workers wear many hats
and often take turns as the chef. He said he would like to see
an exemption for small, remote, family-run businesses, and for
guides.
MS. RYAN said DEC does not intend to use the new system on any
facilities that aren't already being regulated. Therefore,
temporary food service providers, operators at fairs, or smaller
camps will not fall under the new system as they are not
regulated now. She maintained that DEC is only interested in the
large businesses that it currently regulates.
SENATOR OGAN asked where that is written in the bill.
MS. RYAN said it is not written in the bill but is in DEC's
current regulations.
CHAIR SEEKINS asked what DEC's current regulations say about
size.
MS. RYAN said the current regulations are very complex and have
about 15 different categories of facilities. She explained that
the requirements for a temporary food service permit at a fair
would not change with the new system. DEC provides two-hours of
training for those permits.
CHAIR SEEKINS asked if all of the people engaged in food
preparation during a fair must be trained, such as a Girl Scout
troop, or if only the supervisor is trained.
MS. RYAN thought only the owner and operator would be trained
but offered to get back to Chair Seekins with the details.
COMMISSIONER BALLARD pointed out that the situations that he and
Senator Ogan have described represent a very small percent of
the food delivered to the public in Alaska daily. DEC's
obligation is to focus on the year-round restaurant industry.
DEC's regulations for sewage treatment, drinking water, food
safety, and waste disposal are all capable of accommodating
seasonal, camp, or itinerant situations. She noted that DEC
deals with those situations regularly and in a way that works
for both parties. She repeated the vast majority of food service
businesses are in business on a regular basis and deal with
employees who must be trained.
CHAIR SEEKINS said DEC's intent sounds good but he was asking
because if HB 378 passes, businesses will be subject to
additional penalties under the Unfair Trade Practices and
Consumer Protection Act, which can be very severe.
SENATOR OGAN added that during his years as a legislator, he has
heard a number of businesses complain about the food inspection
program.
COMMISSIONER BALLARD said DEC is fully aware of the complaints
about the existing program and is not proud of that program. DEC
does not believe the existing program serves industry, the
consumer, the legislature, or the administration, so it is
proposing a new system for its replacement.
8:35 a.m.
SENATOR FRENCH said the debate on this bill in the House
centered around the fact that the state is losing an inspection
process and gaining a training program. He noted that while
people acknowledge that better inspection efforts could be made,
they are reluctant to do away with inspectors completely. He
questioned whether it makes sense to maintain some overlap until
the public is confident in the new program.
COMMISSIONER BALLARD said there will be a period of overlap. DEC
knows it must pace the change so that it will work in the field.
New regulations will take several years to write, and she does
not expect the new program to be fully functional until 2006.
During that period of time, DEC will work with industry to deal
with the transitional issues. She emphasized that DEC will not
be abandoning its presence in the field; it will shift to
compliance and enforcement. The field itself will be better
prepared by virtue of a robust training program and required
standard operating procedures, with self monitoring and
documentation.
MS. RYAN maintained that DEC does not intend to quit doing
inspections. It will maintain its same level of inspections but
it will no longer rely only on inspections. It will be adding to
its program.
CHAIR SEEKINS noted that Senator Therriault joined the
committee.
SENATOR OGAN asked for an explanation of Section 12.
CHAIR SEEKINS pointed out that Section 12 is the Unfair Trade
Practices and Consumer Protection Act provision, which gives DEC
more enforcement power.
MS. RYAN said DEC added that change because it is often asked to
enforce labeling violations that are not a food safety issue.
For example, local producers were concerned that Budweiser tried
to market a beer that looked like it was made in Alaska and
would compete with Alaskan beers. DEC feels that is not a safety
issue; it is a consumer protection matter. HB 378 will allow DEC
to share enforcement with the Department of Law.
CHAIR SEEKINS indicated that section would apply to food safety
issues if someone wanted to prosecute.
SENATOR OGAN asked how Section 13, pertaining to organic foods,
would be enforced.
MS. RYAN said the Division of Agriculture will be enforcing the
Organic Food Labeling Act under a similar section in its own
statute. It will be going after the certifications from the Food
and Drug Administration to implement it.
COMMISSIONER BALLARD added that the principle inspection and
enforcement functions will have to do with whether the food
product has been certified as organic, and not with testing the
product itself. She noted that few food producers in Alaska
have been certified as organic, but she expects more
certifications in the future.
CHAIR SEEKINS said the legislature is taking a big leap of faith
with the language on page 2 in that it must trust that DEC will
not unnecessarily restrict businesses.
COMMISSIONER BALLARD said it makes DEC nervous that rules that
are simple to understand and implement may not be available for
lack of training and standard operating procedures in licensed
establishments that are serving food to the public. She repeated
that food borne illness is not an accident - it is an incident
of poor performance. DEC believes it can deliver the protection
required by the Constitution with this program, which has been
tested elsewhere in the country. She pointed out that Alaska is
the only state that is not delivering health inspections at the
county or lower health department level.
CHAIR SEEKINS said that is what the legislature needs to be
assured of. The legislature's intent is to allow DEC to train
and assist people to perform in a safe manner, not to impose
draconian methods.
COMMISSIONER BALLARD said a year ago, DEC conducted an
inspection at a supermarket deli in Kodiak. All appeared to be
fine, however within two weeks, the operator notified DEC that
an employee she had sent to the hospital was diagnosed with
hepatitis. The division took 500 inoculations to Kodiak at great
expense to the state and difficulty and inoculated 496 people
who had purchased food from that operator; no one contracted
hepatitis. She said hepatitis changes one's quality of life for
life. She believes that is one of the fundamental core
responsibilities that the Constitution gave to the legislature.
DEC cannot continue to operate a program where its inspections
achieve nothing. She believes the new program would have
prevented that incident from occurring.
SENATOR THERRIAULT asked if DEC will have the latitude to accept
an inspection and training program offered by a franchise in
lieu of DEC's program.
MS. RYAN pointed out that even restaurant chains have
significant problems and, because they serve so many people,
they are a greater risk. DEC is currently proposing that a
person get a food handler card, which will require taking a
test. Therefore, if the company provides training, that will
help the employee pass the test faster. DEC will offer the
training on-line, free of cost. The applicant can print the
booklet off of the Internet and then take a written test. She
noted that most large chains require their managers to be
certified in a nationally accredited program. DEC will accept
that certification.
COMMISSIONER BALLARD added that one aspect of the new program is
that in addition to the training and certification, DEC expects
the level of attention to standard operating procedures to
increase because DEC will require it to be documented. She
likened those procedures to those used by airline pilots, who
check their instruments before every take-off and document
readings.
CHAIR SEEKINS took public testimony.
MS. ALICIA [INDISC.] from Anchorage commented about additional
enforcement powers under Section 12.
SENATOR THERRIAULT moved HB 378 from committee with individual
recommendations and its attached fiscal notes.
CHAIR SEEKINS announced that without objection, the motion
carried.
CHAIR SEEKINS announced that the sponsor of SB 246 asked that it
be addressed the following week.
HB 514-CHILD SUPPORT ENFORCEMENT/ CRIMES
MR. JOHN MAIN, staff to Representative Pete Kott, sponsor of HB
514, said he was available to answer additional questions about
HB 514.
SENATOR ELLIS asked if Senator Ogan's concerns have been
addressed.
CHAIR SEEKINS announced a recess at 8:55 a.m. until Senator Ogan
returned. He then reconvened the meeting at 9:00 a.m.
SENATOR ELLIS explained that he and former Senator Drue Pearce
co-chaired a family support task force several years ago. At
that time, several families testified that they were upset with
the state and judges and the ordering of child support and lack
of modifications of those orders. Most of those testifying were
men, many on their third or fourth marriages. He and Senator
Pearce were amazed at what goes on in the real world. He asked
whether the current child support system takes subsequent
marriages into account when modifying child support orders.
MR. JOHN MALLONEE, Acting Director of the Child Support
Enforcement Division (CSED), said Court Rule 90.3 recognizes
prior child support orders so, in a situation where there is a
second child support order, the previous order is included in
the computation of the new order.
TAPE 04-51, SIDE B
SENATOR ELLIS asked if the forgiveness provision might provide
an incentive for people to get behind on child support payments,
especially from the aspect of people with three or four
families.
MR. MALLONEE said one can strike a balance with the incentive
provision because while an individual might try to elude
enforcement to try to get a debt forgiven, CSED will be trying
to use all enforcement options available during that process.
That individual would have to work under the table or go
underground to prevent CSED from collecting anything. He
repeated the focus of the forgiveness provision will be on those
people who get behind on child support payments but have the
desire to pay their debt.
SENATOR ELLIS asked whether the 20 percent forgiveness would
only be for the state portion of the debt and whether that will
impact the state portion of Temporary Assistance for Needy
Families' (TANF) funds.
MR. MALLONEE explained that the TANF block grant will be in
place regardless of what CSED does. The forgiveness provision
would impact the general fund. He noted that CSED collects the
debt and splits that with the federal government. The state
portion is deposited into the general fund.
SENATOR ELLIS affirmed that no families will be forced to forego
TANF funds because CSED will be forgiving 20 percent of the
state obligation of child support.
MR. MALLONEE said that is correct.
MS. LANDA BAILY, special assistant to the Department of Revenue,
reassured Senator Ellis that the amendment to Section 12,
adopted by the committee last week, requires that CSED consider
the best interest of the child and the best interest of the
state when implementing the forgiveness provision.
SENATOR ELLIS asked if the interest of the state and child are
co-equal.
MS. DIANE WENDLANDT, Assistant Attorney General, said the
amendment made both interests co-equal.
CHAIR SEEKINS said if he had to assess the intent of the
committee, he believes members hope to protect the best
interests of the child before the best interests of the state.
He asked Ms. Bailey if she considers DOR to be an advocate for
the child as well as the state.
MS. BAILY said she does; CSED's mission is to collect and pay
child support to Alaskan children. Regarding the best interest
of the state, she said that is important when DOR contemplates
its competitive profile to ensure federal incentive funds. That
pool of money is ever shrinking and requires all states to meet
certain standards. The better a state does in meeting those
standards, the more money it receives. The federal guidelines
have cautioned the states to not set up an incentive for people
to not pay child support with the idea the debt would eventually
vanish. That is why DOR wanted some discussion and statutory
direction that the state's best interest be considered.
SENATOR FRENCH said a person can become a felon in three ways
under this bill. He noted that according to the fiscal note,
14,946 cases fall under two of those categories. He expressed
concern about passing a law that makes 15,000 Alaskans felons
and questioned whether the $10,000 amount of debt should be
increased to $15,000, because a person with four children could
easily be required to make a $1,000 per month payment.
CHAIR SEEKINS noted that a person must be in arrears $10,000
without lawful excuse. He said if the current system doesn't
provide enough incentive for a person to make payments without
lawful excuse, maybe it needs more teeth, which is what HB 514
will do. He hoped CSED would work with those people with lawful
excuses. He added that Alaska has a serious problem if it has
15,000 cases of people who do not pay child support without
lawful excuse.
9:15 a.m.
SENATOR FRENCH noted the committee previously heard a bill that
promotes self-regulation and did not propose making felons out
of every restaurant that was unclean. He questioned whether the
committee should slow down and consider that it will be making
felons out of 15,000 Alaskans for non-payment of child support.
CHAIR SEEKINS said if he learned those restaurants were starving
15,000 children he'd be pretty upset.
SENATOR OGAN asked if, under current law, people who do not pay
child support can be convicted of a class A misdemeanor.
MR. MAIN said that is correct and explained the punishment is up
to one year in jail, up to a $10,000 fine, and informal
probation.
SENATOR OGAN asked if all debts, other than child support, are
addressed in civil court.
MR. MAIN said that is correct, however with child support, the
individual is being prosecuted for failure to comply with a
court or administrative order, not for the debt.
SENATOR OGAN asked what the typical penalty is for violating a
court order.
SENATOR FRENCH noted it is a $300 fine and maybe 6 months of
jail time but he has never seen any jail time imposed by the
court.
SENATOR OGAN said he is trying to establish some logic with how
things are traditionally dealt with. He fears this bill will
drive people further underground.
CHAIR SEEKINS said this bill is intended to stop that and force
people into the open where they either provide a lawful excuse
or get penalized. He then said according to page 1, line 11,
criminal non-support is a misdemeanor, except criminal non-
support without lawful excuse is a class C felony with the three
trigger points. He asked members whether they wished to offer
any amendments or how they wished to proceed.
SENATOR OGAN asked what section of the bill must pass to secure
federal funds.
MR. MAIN said Section 15.
SENATOR FRENCH moved to amend the bill to increase the $10,000
debt amount to $20,000 [Amendment 3] on page 2, lines 5 and 31.
CHAIR SEEKINS announced that without objection, Amendment 3 was
adopted.
SENATOR OGAN asked if Amendment 3 will also apply to people who
aid and abet.
SENATOR FRENCH said it would apply to both - the obligor and the
person aiding or abetting the obligor.
SENATOR OGAN moved to strike sections 2, 3, and 4 [Amendment 4].
He commented that the class A misdemeanor penalty is severe
enough and it is obviously not being enforced if 15,000 people
are in arrears.
CHAIR SEEKINS objected for the purpose of discussion and asked
the current penalty for aiding or abetting non-support.
MR. MAIN said it is a class A misdemeanor.
CHAIR SEEKINS asked if the three trigger points exist in current
law.
MR. MAIN said they do not and that those trigger points are
modeled after federal language for criminal non-support.
Currently, a person who owes one month of child support is in
violation.
CHAIR SEEKINS pointed out that HB 514 establishes "knowingly"
and the trigger points, and applies to a much more serious level
of arrearage. He said he prefers to have some kind of penalty
for a person who knowingly avoids payment of child support.
SENATOR FRENCH said in looking at the aiding and abetting and
non-payment provisions, they were written so that those
behaviors must be intentional, which is tantamount to fraud. He
said yesterday a person was convicted in federal court for
having signed a loan package, having made a misrepresentation in
the insurance paperwork to hide a sex offense conviction.
Intentionally withholding a fact is a felony under federal law,
which is what HB 514 will do.
SENATOR OGAN said his intent with Amendment 4 was to do away
with the felony. He asked if Section 4, aiding, is a felony.
CHAIR SEEKINS said it would be a felony if the person aided and
knew the aggregate amount owed was $20,000 or more, knew that no
payment was made in 24 months, or that the person was previously
convicted of a misdemeanor for non-payment.
SENATOR FRENCH added that knowing all of that, the person also
must intentionally withhold information.
CHAIR SEEKINS agreed and said that is a high standard.
SENATOR OGAN said he objected to the bill moving out of
committee at this time.
CHAIR SEEKINS noted the committee has a busy calendar during the
next week and that he personally has no problem with the bill as
is. He agreed to hold the bill in committee and asked Senator
Ogan to talk to the sponsor about his concerns.
SENATOR OGAN withdrew Amendment 4.
CHAIR SEEKINS adjourned the meeting at 9:30 a.m.