SENATE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE February 8, 1993 1:37 p.m. MEMBERS PRESENT Senator Robin Taylor, Chairman Senator Rick Halford, Vice-Chairman Senator Dave Donley Senator Suzanne Little MEMBERS ABSENT Senator George Jacko OTHERS PRESENT Senator Johnny Ellis COMMITTEE CALENDAR CONFIRMATION HEARING: Commissioner Lloyd Rupp SENATE BILL NO. 54 "An Act relating to violations of laws by juveniles; and providing for an effective date." SENATE JOINT RESOLUTION NO. 11 Proposing an amendment to the Constitution of the State of Alaska relating to repeal of regulations by the legislature. SCHEDULED BUT NOT HEARD. PREVIOUS SENATE COMMITTEE ACTION SB 54 - NONE WITNESS REGISTER Commissioner Lloyd Rupp P.O. Box 112000 Juneau, Alaska 99811-2000 POSITION STATEMENT: Confirmation hearings. Kenny Leaf, committee aide Senator Robin Taylor State Capitol Juneau, AK 99801-1182 POSITION STATEMENT: Provided information. Travis Kay Close-Up Program Healy, Alaska 99743 POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on CSSB 54. Bonnie Berbrich Close-Up Program Denali, Alaska POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on CSSB 54. Jack Chenoweth, Attorney Legislative Legal Counsel 130 Seward Street, #406 Juneau, Alaska 99801 POSITION STATEMENT: Reviewed CSSB 54. Margo Knuth, Asst. Attorney General Criminal Division Department of Law P.O. Box 110300 Juneau, Alaska 99811-0300 POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on CSSB 54. ACTION NARRATIVE TAPE 93-7, SIDE A Number 001 Chairman Robin Taylor called the Judiciary Committee meeting to order at 1:37 p.m. to take testimony from Commissioner LLOYD RUPP. A quorum soon assembled. COMMISSIONER RUPP indicated he had not prepared a formal statement for the committee but was prepared to respond to questions. He said a packet of material had been delivered to committee members earlier, which contained reference letters and resume' information. Number 036 SENATOR TAYLOR asked about his last couple of assignments in corrections. MR. RUPP outlined his previous two assignments which included Naval service and a federally funded program called, "Practical Assistance to Correctional Agencies." At urging from SENATOR TAYLOR, COMMISSIONER RUPP described his ideas for Operation Hope, beginning with his tenure as manager of a program dealing with drug problems in 18 to 26 year old deliquents for a program similar to a boot camp. He explained these youth were able to address their alcohol problems as well as their deficits in education, in terms of marketable skills with a multi-agency approach. COMMISSIONER RUPP also explained how he would be dealing with other commissioners and agencies for alternatives to incarceration. SENATOR TAYLOR asked COMMISSIONER RUPP how he would propose to solve the current over-crowding in the corrections facilities. Number 116 COMMISSIONER RUPP said there needed to be action on several fronts. First, he said, attention needed to be paid to those presently in the felony population, approximately 3000 inmates and growing. He reviewed the master plan which projected the exacerbation of the building program. COMMISSIONER RUPP recommended looking at felons to see which ones could profit from the CRC half-way house placement without compromising any public safety. COMMISSIONER RUPP spoke about the large number of technical violations, as described in the master plan, and he wanted to empower his probation officers to make decisions without fear of personal liabilities. He praised Project Hope as a way to present some alternatives to confinements, and he urged being aggressive in assisting judges to make alternative determinations. COMMISSIONER RUPP suggested it would be a cost benefit in the misdemeanor population to prevent putting them in felony beds. Number 149 COMMISSIONER RUPP continued to emphasize prevention, and he specified alcohol as the driving factor in criminal behavior in this state. He counseled the senators to deal with the problem by enlisting the help of other agencies for prevention and solutions. SENATOR TAYLOR asked if other members of the committee had questions. SENATOR LITTLE asked COMMISSIONER RUPP if he thought his vision could be met in this state while also meeting the possibility of reduced funds. Number 167 COMMISSIONER RUPP explained some of his cost savings would be to make appropriate use of the heavy cost beds, and he thought the legislature would have to work smarter in doing something about medical costs. He gave some optimistic opinions on the corrections problems, but stressed the need for adequate funding for alternatives, such as for more parole officers. COMMISSIONER RUPP explained, in the budget cycle, his department would go to a zero based budget. Number 199 SENATOR HALFORD asked about COMMISSIONER RUPP'S aversion to using parole officers as clerks and asked for the percentage of time an average parole officer should be in the field v. behind a desk. COMMISSIONER RUPP said he had received several different answers on that question since he has been here, and he thought it was a variation in offices. He quoted parole officers as saying they spent too much time in the office doing paper work generated by the action decisions at work. MR. RUPP outlined possible remedies for improving quality time for the parole officers. When asked by SENATOR HALFORD about his goals for the parole officers, COMMISSIONER RUPP wanted to see the parole officers spend at least 60% of their time in the field, and there was agreement that increased paperwork had made many parole officers bureaucratic bound by virtue of requirements levied on them. He thought the community interest was best served by having agents out in the field working with their clients. SENATOR HALFORD agreed with COMMISSIONER RUPP'S summation of the problem. Number 237 SENATOR DONLEY asked if COMMISSIONER RUPP had any chance to follow up on contacts with the Committee on Competition and conflict between the private and prison industries. COMMISSIONER RUPP reported on what he had done so far in prison industries, which was to talk to individual competitors. He said he was trying to develop joint ventures such as used in California, where it is reasonably successful, and he described how it should be a balance between public interest and private enterprise. Number 262 SENATOR DONLEY encouraged COMMISSIONER RUPP to work with the committee on the problems with prison industries in Alaska. SENATOR DONLEY also asked if anyone was designing any new facilities in the corrections department, and COMMISSIONER RUPP said he didn't intend to preside over any new correctional constructions, notwithstanding the master plan. He planned to look at the camp situation as a possibility, but it would not be designed as a hard site. COMMISSIONER RUPP said facilities for women was an area which needed a careful approach, and he outlined how he would balance the Cleary Decision with the need for a woman's institution. Number 280 SENATOR DONLEY and COMMISSIONER RUPP had a lengthy conversation about possible new facilities, Wildwood, misdemeanants, Community Residential Center beds, over- classified felons, and SENATOR DONLEY'S concern for jeopardizing public safety. COMMISSIONER RUPP said he would never compromise public safety, and he, again, said he would maintain a balance between public safety and appropriate cost benefits. SENATOR HALFORD asked whether the two prisoners, who escaped from Highland Mountain in Eagle River, were properly classified to be there. COMMISSIONER RUPP had not seen the final written report, but thought those individuals would have been better housed in a different situation. He offered to give an additional report to SENATOR HALFORD, who had some further observations on the institution. Number 351 SENATOR JOHNNY ELLIS commended COMMISSIONER RUPP on Operation Hope and asked how the associated costs would be handled. COMMISSIONER RUPP SAID there were costs in both the capital budget and the 1994 budget, but there was a low fiscal note. He explained how the program would grow, beginning in July with the Point MacKenzie project to identify the resources available there. COMMISSIONER RUPP gave a detailed description of sharing costs and the budgeting process. He said it would not be a fixed institution, but would have re-locatable buildings. Number 370 SENATOR ELLIS questioned the boot camp approach in relation to Project Hope, and COMMISSIONER RUPP explained how they fit into a three part program. He addressed the at-risk population as well as alcohol problems and work experiences. In a discussion of budgeting for the project, COMMISSIONER RUPP mentioned assets from other agencies such as state owned equipment, which could be used to teach vocational skills. He talked in terms of cost benefits from such relationships, and he gave an optimistic view of their intentions. Number 400 SENATOR ELLIS asked if the recommendations from the sentencing commission had been discussed, and what would be their impact on corrections if adopted. COMMISSIONER RUPP said he would liked to have been involved in the sentencing commission process during the time of their deliberations. He agreed with appropriate alternative sentencing and intermediate sanctions, and in general, he said he would support the recommendations. SENATOR ELLIS directed attention to proposals before the legislature (SB 54) to make it easier to waive alleged juvenile offenders into adult court. He mentioned some variations on the suggested waiver, including costs, and juveniles in maximum security. COMMISSIONER RUPP said he had not had time to look at the proposed legislation, but he was familiar with the increase in the violence among adolescence groups both in the United states and in the rest of the world. He discussed his familiarity with gang activities and the push on law enforcement. SENATOR ELLIS asked him to testify on the true costs and impacts on juvenile issues before the Department of Corrections. COMMISSIONER RUPP drew on his California experience to give some background on the juvenile problems. Number 452 SENATOR DONLEY asked how the state constitution related to corrections and. He, again, stressed his concerns about prioritizing with public protection first and rehabilitation second. He wondered if this prioritizing could be established in the constitution. MR. RUPP thought the constitution was specific to public safety balanced with reformation, and he said, generally, the push was towards public safety. He empathized with SENATOR DONLEY'S concerns about victim's rights and described his involvement with victim's advocacy. COMMISSIONER RUPP thought there needed to be more done for victims with the assistance of the perpetrators for mutual resolution of the problems. Number 489 In a follow-up question, SENATOR DONLEY asked for feedback on any difficulties posed by the courts' interpretation of public protection and reformation as co-equal factors. He still wanted COMMISSIONER RUPP'S opinion as to priorities rather than being co-equal. SENATOR LITTLE expressed concern about COMMISSIONER RUPP'S ideas of getting the victims and perpetrators together. First of all, COMMISSIONER RUPP recommended the book, Crime and it's Victims by a member of the Justice Fellowship, and gave examples where creative judges have worked to bring reconciliation between the victim and the perpetrators. COMMISSIONER RUPP explained how, in some cases, the perpetrator obtains a job and pays the victim on a scale agreeable to the victim, or purchases something of equal value, or the perpetrator might be involved in some service to the victim. He said sometimes this has led to a reconciliation between the victim and the offender, but very often, he explained, these are first time offenders who do stupid crimes. COMMISSIONER RUPP said otherwise the offender may go on to worse crimes, because they never get any personal involvement with their victim and do not know how the victim feels. Number 523 COMMISSIONER RUPP assured SENATOR LITTLE it would be with the consent of the victim, would not pose an imposition, and be under the supervision of a specifically trained officer. SENATOR LITTLE expressed appreciation for his answers. SENATOR TAYLOR thanked COMMISSIONER RUPP and ended the hearing. SENATOR TAYLOR introduced SB 54 (OFFENSES BY JUVENILE OFFENDERS) sponsored by SENATOR HALFORD and explained a committee substitute had been drafted. KENNY LEAF, committee aide, offered two items to the packets; first, administrative over sights in the original bill, and second, the amended version of the sectional analysis. SENATOR TAYLOR invited SENATOR HALFORD to testify on his bill. SENATOR HALFORD gave some history on the research he had been conducting on conditions of property crimes by juveniles, and he explained the committee substitute includes provisions for restitution to victims. He said it also includes provisions that take away the confidentiality of the minor convicted, with regard to civil cases. SENATOR HALFORD said that would allow a victim to sue a minor who does damage to the victim's property and would also provide for the use of permanent fund dividends to be attached as one of the sources from which to recover from the juvenile offender. SENATOR HALFORD wanted JACK CHENOWETH, from Legal Counsel to review the sectional analysis, and SENATOR TAYLOR paused the meeting to wait for MR. CHENOWETH. Number 566 SENATOR TAYLOR brought the committee back to order, and SENATOR HALFORD moved to send the standard letter back to the body for the confirmation of COMMISSIONER RUPP, giving no stated objections. Without objections, so ordered. SENATOR HALFORD moved to adopt the new committee substitute for SB 54, identified as CHENOWETH 2/6/93, as a mark-up vehicle. Without objections, so ordered. SENATOR TAYLOR acknowledged SENATOR DONLEY as having additional amendments. SENATOR TAYLOR noted there were Close-Up students in attendance, and he invited TRAVIS KAY to testify. MR. KAY said he was from Healy. He said they were just now researching the bill, so he didn't know much about the subject. He offered the view of a 17 year old student, and said he wanted to be treated as an adult, even though he still had doubts about his decisions. TAPE 93-7, SIDE B Number 001 MR. KAY said lessons could be learned when juveniles were treated as adults, and he thought 16 was a good age of awareness. SENATOR DONLEY suggested to the students it was difficult to understand the bill because it doesn't refer to specific crimes, but he told the students the application was for serious crimes. He listed the "bad crimes" for MR. KAY. MR. KAY said he understood the difference but found it difficult to understand the thinking of juveniles who would commit such crimes. He thought it was important to punish them, but he didn't think a juvenile should get the death sentence. SENATOR HALFORD reviewed the provisions in his bill as to age, and MR. KAY thought the provisions were good. When asked for anything further from SENATOR TAYLOR, MR. KAY said he agreed with the bill and the committee should pass it. BONNIE BERBRICH, a Close-Up student from Denali, agreed that when people are 16 years old, they should be treated and tried as adults in murder or rape. She believed juveniles should have their dividends taken away if they couldn't pay for restitution. She offered to answer questions from the kid's point of view. SENATOR TAYLOR thanked the Close-Up students for their participation and asked MR. CHENOWETH to walk the committee through a sectional analysis of the committee substitute. MR. CHENOWETH elected to walk the committee members through the legislation topically. He said the initial thrust of the legislation was the effort to identify and treat differently the minors 16 to 18 years of age, who commit classified or class A felonies, as delineated in Section 5 on page 3, beginning with line 14 through 28. He contrasted current law, which handles minors as juveniles subject to provisions of adjudication with the proposed legislation. MR. CHENOWETH said this would reverse the presumption of a minor, 16 to 18, charged with an unclassified or class A felony. Number 81 MR. CHENOWETH explained, under CSSB 54, a minor could be automatically charged, tried, and sentenced as an adult. He reviewed the remainder of the sections in terms of what sections of the law may, or may not, apply in indictments for unclassified, class A felonies, and lesser felonies or misdemeanors. MR. CHENOWETH said it was the major crime that will decide how the minor is treated, and he explained how a minor could be place back into the juvenile system to be handled as a delinquent. SENATOR DONLEY asked for any provision, if a minor can show by a preponderance or some other standard, they are amenable to treatment, they could be sent to juvenile court. MR. CHENOWETH explained how it could be done on page 3, lines 27 and 28 to give either party the opportunity to make use of the waiver of jurisdiction, and they discussed the waiver in the context of SENATOR DONLEY'S hypothetical example. SENATOR DONLEY expressed displeasure with section (h) and asked that it be deleted. SENATOR HALFORD moved to delete section (h) on page 3, line 27 and 28. SENATOR LITTLE asked, if a juvenile is adjudged to be rehabilitated, what would be the damage of retaining the section, to allow the judge to act appropriately for the benefit of the young individual. SENATOR DONLEY said the problem was the standard becomes a preponderance of the evidence, so there is a 51% chance this individual is capable of possibly being rehabilitated by the time they reach the age of majority, in which case they are going to stay in juvenile court. He thought it might be appropriate for lesser degrees of crime, but for the serious crimes, a clever person could put on a great show to prove they could be rehabilitated. SENATOR DONLEY said this puts the judge in the position of guessing at a decision, which would be a burden on the judges in those cases. SENATOR HALFORD used the example of a 17 and an 18 year old person convicted of rape/murder, in which the 18 year old would serve a minimum presumptive sentence of 8 to 15 years, while the 17 year old could be out by his 20th birthday. He thought the public would resist such sentencing, and he discussed the benefit of a solid sentence. Number 146 SENATOR LITTLE registered her objection to the amendment, saying she didn't have the wisdom to say every single juvenile who commits a crime of this degree needs to be absolutely, without exception, treated as an adult. SENATOR DONLEY brought up two points, with the first being a middle ground of higher presumption rather than just a preponderance of evidence, making a significant burden on the defendant to show they are rehabilitative. The second out would be if there is a manifest injustice by putting the person into adult court, and he asked MARGO KNUTH if they could go to a three judge panel over the sentencing. MS KNUTH said they could. SENATOR TAYLOR called for a vote on the amendment, which passed on a vote of 3 to 1, and section (h) was deleted. Number 170 MR. CHENOWETH went next to Section 8 to explain the protection from being over charged by zealous prosecutors. He covered the sentencing of juveniles in Section 10, where those younger than 18 are waived and handled as adults. MR. CHENOWETH reported opinions given on both sides of the argument, and he explained how the legislation splits the responsibility. Number 210 SENATOR HALFORD asked MR. CHENOWETH where the children, who are currently waived and tried as adults, are kept. MR. CHENOWETH didn't know. SENATOR DONLEY said they were segregated from the regular minors in a youth facility, and he discussed with SENATOR HALFORD the difficulty of isolating them. He said there had been an extensive review last year of where to put the waived juveniles. SENATOR LITTLE asked how the committee could come up with a zero fiscal note for the bill. MR. LEAF explained the fiscal notes were drafted for the original SB 54, and new fiscal notes were on the way for CSSB 54, but they were also zero. MR. CHENOWETH said he wished to discuss records of proceedings involving juveniles with reference to Section 6 on page 4, and he explained the records were confidential and may now be sealed at the end of five years, particularly if the child successfully completes rehabilitation under the sentence. He explained the change made by this section would remove the opportunity to seal records for a conviction of a minor, who was 16 years of age or older, and who was prosecuted under AS 47.10.010(e) through (g) for the commission of an unclassified felon or a class A felon. SENATOR TAYLOR choose at this point to end the discussion and not to send the bill from committee today. There being no further business to come before the committee, the meeting was adjourned at 3:00 p.m.