SENATE FINANCE COMMITTEE LOGNOTES February 10, 1999 GENERAL SUBJECT(S): Results Based Budgeting: Missions and Measures Training by Craig Holt JOINT SENATE AND HOUSE FINANCE COMMITTEES The following overview was taken in log note format. Tapes and handouts will be on file with the Senate Finance Committee through the 21st Legislative Session, contact 465-2618. After the 21st Legislative session they will be available through the Legislative Library at 465-3808. Time Meeting Convened: 8:06 am Tape(s): SFC-99 # 25, Side A & B 26, Side A PRESENT: Senator Adams - not present Senator Parnell Senator Torgerson - not present Senator Phillips Senator Donley Senator Leman Senator Wilken Senator Green Senator P. Kelly ALSO PRESENT: Representative Eldon Mulder, Co-Chair, House Finance Committee; Representative Gene Terriault, Co-Chair, House Finance Committee; Representative Gary Davis; Representative Con Bunde; Representative Bill Williams; Representative Alan Austerman; Representative Gail Phillips; Craig Holt, President, Managing Total Performance, Inc.; Jack Kreinheder, Senior Policy Analyst, Office of Management and Budget; David Teal, Director, Division of Legislative Finance; Ginger Blaisdell, Phil Okeson, Brent Doutt, Fiscal Analysts, Division of Legislative Finance. Tape: SFC - 99 #25, Side A 8:06 AM Co-Chair Sean Parnell Introduction. I'm joined by Co-Chair Mulder of the House Finance Committee plus other members of the Senate and House Finance Committees and other members of the Legislature Our focus is going to be on Results Based Budgeting, which began last year. Last year the finance committees began implementing results based budgeting and working to imbed performance measures into our budget so we can build more accountability into our budget process. We as the legislature needed help in understanding that and also to learn one approach to doing that. In the process last year we developed missions and measures with the Administration and passed a budget bill containing missions and measures. We're going to continue that work. In the budget subcommittees the subcommittee chairs will be looking at the missions and measures established last year, continue refining them with the departments and will be developing new missions and measures for other divisions. Introduction of Craig Holt, brought to the meeting with the help of the AOGA and the Alaska Chamber of Commerce. Encourage members to interact with Mr. Holt in the discussion. Craig Holt President, Managing Total Performance, Inc. a consulting firm. (Gave brief background of company and it's activities.) I have talked about your efforts to others. You have a truly unique situation. I encourage you to get a copy of the handout. Included is an article I wrote about performance based budgeting, "Can It Really Be Done?" The key is that there needs to be a lot of subtenant things that happen in the government sector to allow this to happen. One of the key things is to have elected officials move to more of a results approach to not necessarily the cutting side of the budget. What do you get for the remaining billions of dollars? The issue really becomes, "You're spending a lot, what did you get for it?" (Analogy to financial manager) I don't give my financial manager money without asking what kind of return will I get for it. I'm not talking about cutting back the amount I'm investing. I did get a preview of what the agencies put forward. I was very pleased. There are five or six very good examples of people in the agencies that are taking this to heart and doing a good job of missions and measures and alignments. I'll talk about them later. It's not universal, but you are never going to get universal support. They are trying to get the intent of the Statement of Mission, which is fundamentally, "what's the purpose of this program?" The measures, which is the result you're trying to accomplish, and then the 3-5 key measures of how you will know if they've accomplished what they set out to do. With respect to prioritization in a fiscal situation where you don't have enough to go around and you have to make some decisions. A performance-based approach will help you make more informed better decisions and better explain your decisions. I don't know anyone stepping forward saying we don't need the money anymore. Missions and measures will help you to explain your decisions. There is no silver bullet. It won't make the decision any easier. Relate to my two girls, ages 9 and 6. Speak to the decisions made differently for each daughter. This process doesn't make it easier to make decisions, but it is easier for them to understand the decisions and move ahead. I believe the missions and measures will give you the data to make better-informed decisions. But it is not a computer. You people were elected to make these tough decisions. It's a tough time. You are moving into a difficult period for your state. These can really help you make a more informed decision. I applaud your efforts as an elected body to try to move towards a result approach to government. Johnson County, Kansas is one other place where the chair is working to implement this same approach. Co-Chair Sean Parnell Regarding, Johnson County, Kansas is that the only other place where the elected legislative branch going forward with this system? In the other places it is more the executive branch? Craig Holt Yes that I'm aware of. Handout: Page 2, Investing in Results. Improvement framework. This should be similar to what you've already done. The "missions" and "core services" is your "what and why". Just doing these two things will start to get your focus on the services that Alaskans are getting for their money. Not everything that happens in government is a core service. The hard part is determining what those are. Core services would be maintain roadways or get people jobs. It is not necessarily the activity that goes behind it. You will start to see a couple things. You will probably see some overlap between the departments. Just brining some sense of order to that misalignment will help your accomplishments. This is a critical exercise. Mission is a fundamental statement of why this organization exists. It should only be a couple of sentences. Others say mission statements should be very long. The bottom line is that if you can't understand the mission of the department in a very concise fashion, why would you invest in it? Your job isn't to seek to understand. The agencies should be sharing with you their mission so you can move into further conversation. The core services are just statements of the broad category of results you are trying to accomplish. Co-Chair Sean Parnell In defining that mission last year, our focus was on starting with the constitution, moving into the statutes that authorize the particular department. We looked to that statutory legal framework to identify the mission as it existed. We tried to crunch that down into an easily understood mission statement. Is there anything else we could do along those lines? Craig Holt That is a very appropriate method for your state. New York is very convoluted. I remember working here with Cheryl several years ago and we looked at Fish and Wildlife, which was very clear. There was some duality in the mission then. I would start with that and then crutch down and go forward. Co-Chair Sean Parnell Craig Holt Then you can move into "options for service delivery." Then you can ask if you should out-service, contract out or privatize some of the work. That conversation comes after you decide what are the core services we need to provide for Alaskans. This is the "how." This is the purvey of the Executive Branch. How they go about doing the "how." Your job is to lay out the policy and then check to see that the results were achieved. Regardless of who does it, there still needs to be accountability for results. If you are investing you get the feedback on how well you did. These 3 areas is where you should put your focus, Gov. should focus on delivery (pointing to chart) Senator Randy Phillips This would be fine for the private sector. There is an added dimension that is not afforded to us. We have an executive branch that has 20,000 full-time employees we are only part time. How do we then ensure accountability? I don't have time to do this full time between June and January. Craig Holt Accountability of results is for only the core service of 3-5 measures not for more. You should only need to look at quarterly or semi-annually. Not day to day; that is Executive Branch's job. There needs to be a nested set of measures. Co-Chair Sean Parnell That is were we are now, at a minimum. Our accountability comes back to our budget subcommittees. That's a once a year process. The first thing we can do at our meetings is ask, "How did you do on these measures last year?" That's the only place right now. Senator Randy Phillips It might have done so much damage by then you can't control it. That's the problem a whole year later. Craig Holt I can tell you how some states do this. Do you do quarterly allotments? Senator Randy Phillips No. Craig Holt Do you do annual? Senator Randy Phillips The only other thing I can think of right now is to put that burden on the Legislative Budget and Audit Committee. But then you're making that committee full- time legislators. Representative Con Bunde We hear from constituents from time to time saying we spend too much time budgeting and we should do it bi-annually. If that were the case, we would never get to any results. Senator Dave Donley Not only that, but they don't do what you tell them to do anyhow. Last year we put in the public safety budget that we didn't want them to buy another helicopter but they bought one anyway. Craig Holt Again, we're going to talk about the consequences for not doing things a little later. This is a very important point. I worked in a state that is bi-annual. We had quarterly allotment spending and we had to present out measures quarterly. It went to the budget folks and they reviewed it. Remember this is not a whole lot of numbers. Senator Randy Phillips But who's going to do this quarterly? You don't expect us to be full-time legislators do you? Craig Holt No I do not. Co-Chair Sean Parnell We'll come up with another structure. Craig Holt I'm just trying to share how others are using this. Senator Dave Donley We're saying that it's misleading to say how others are using. We only have four months to be legislatures. As you're doing your presentation, you are not facing the realities we're faced with here. Craig Holt Oregon had a part-time legislature and we did this. Senator Dave Donley Maybe they had more staff. Craig Holt We can talk about the mechanics. Senator Pete Kelly I think it will all become clear when we get into the consequences. Ultimately we have the hammer. If we go through one cycle where we hold them accountable, the next time the discussion will be better and I think the performance will be better. Senator Dave Donley I agree. Last year we had the same point but we didn't use the hammer. Where we tried to, they went around it anyway. Senator Pete Kelly But we didn't have this in place at that time. Senator Dave Donley The Governor vetoed it out of the budget. Senator Pete Kelly It's still written down and we all agreed to it. We can still hold them accountable. Senator Randy Phillips Just trying to bring up some of the problems. You will probably have some answers later. Craig Holt You have to ask yourselves if your job is budgeting or managing the expenditure of funds, being good stewards. I think those are very different. If it means you have to think differently about how you monitor. If you just do this once a year, it's nothing more than a scorekeeping exercise and the damage is done. Look at it to make mid-course corrections. Senator Dave Donley Last year we made budget reductions and the conference committee reinstated. Our work went down the tube. All the hours spent on this I thought we would get somewhere. Then all the deals were made in the backroom. Conference committees have to be held accountable for the decisions made throughout the process. It's frustrating and wrong. Or else this is a waste of time. Representative Eldon Mulder Last year, Representative Mark Hanley brought the two subcommittees recommendations together and we made a compromise. I don't think its just conference committee, it was also disagreements between the two subcommittees. Craig Holt This substantive conversation is what's going to make it work. Page 3. You are investing in results not government. Instead of giving money to departments, you are investing in families, jobs, agriculture, etc. Then you are talking about results not the government you're funding. Page 4. Results Investment Organization Budgeting. City of San Jose example. They give money to the programs tied to the specific organization. They are investing money into an organization. Senator Pete Kelly Don't follow Craig Holt The city has a Park's dept, a Neighborhood dept., a Recreation dept, a Planning and a Support dept. They give money to the different depts. Once they started looking at the core service items, they decided there were some broader results they wanted to see happen. They want safer neighborhoods, an active and involved community. They want clean and usable parks and public spaces. See the difference? They said "We want to fund the results by giving to the depts. Then see what they can contribute to the results." (Continued explanation) What would be a result for Alaskans? Senator Lyda Green Statewide transportation network. Others Economic Development, Trade, more jobs... Craig Holt List those results. You won't have 50 for AK. This is where you should start the talking. It will show you potential opportunity for people to work closer together. Senator Randy Phillips Fine to have those things up there but it doesn't matter if your constituency is not satisfied with the results. Craig Holt That's the final measure. Ask constituents if they got their final dollar's worth. How many elected offices are elected by the entire state? (Two) You have to balance your responsibility to your specific elected area with the broader priorities for the state. It's not easy. This will stretch you. Senator Randy Phillips It comes down to the majority veto override. It's my job to convince ten other senators and 21 representatives plus the Governor to do what my constituents want. Craig Holt Have any of you ever participated in a team sport, music or drama? Fight it out here. Then as you move through the process you can implement it autocratically. Representative Alan Austerman Did the finance committee put together a statewide chart like this last year? (No) Representative Gail Phillips I think we should do that. I think we're at that step. Representative Eldon Mulder About three-quarters of the people at the table were on a finance committee last year. But we do have several that are new. Craig Holt Please stop me and ask the questions. Page 5. Terminology "Input" is the stuff that you give the organizations to accomplish the results you want. "Output" is the products and services delivered directly to a customer. (give example) Collectively those should link up to the result you're trying to accomplish. "Results" is the goal or objective that the agency desires to accomplish. (Healthy economy, diverse tourism industry, etc.) "Performance Measures" are the actual measures of how well we're doing. It is different than a goal. A goal is a black or white issue. I encourage you to get clear on these terminologies. The agency needs to explain in your terms. "Baseline" is the historical performance upon what you actually compare. Get data to see how well we are doing. Need to look at the trend. If you are only looking annually, then the trend is very important. "Potential" is the best you would ever want to be. "Mission/Purpose" is the fundamental reason. Performance measures, should be efficiency and effectiveness. We didn't talk about the efficiency equation this last year. As policy folks you are more focused on what you're getting. But results have a cost to it. Page 6. What's Important to Measure. What's important is the result, not the specific activity or the tasks that happen. In Oregon I took people down to the specific detail. Those that knew it the best. If you get down there you could win more than if you stayed at the policy level. Result is the intended goal of the effort. What matters? How hard I worked or the result that happened for Alaskans. What matters with my stockbroker? That he worked real hard and I lost all my money, or that we didn't lose the money? At a certain point you have to come back to what matters. You don't disassociate anyone from the budget process if they don't accomplish the results you wanted. A lot of things could affect the result. You want to know the honest dialog about that. Example, winter operations and heavy snowfall. If you only budget a little, any amount over makes a significant difference. Where did the funds come from? Other programs. Important to have honest dialog. Senator Randy Phillips What was your average? Craig Holt We used a three-year average. You shorten up based on the amount of change you are going through. If there are significant changes, your trends don't match your events. Co-Chair Sean Parnell For oil prices we shouldn't go to a twelve- year average? Craig Holt That is meaningless. It might show you a drop-off trend. Rolling averages tend to mutate the extreme fluctuations, which are good, if you have some degree of consistency. But, if you have significant changes you have to identify those and adjust your trend projections consistent to what you're trying to accomplish. Senator Randy Phillips When dealing with the weather a three-year average is a mini-second. I think a 5-10 year average is better. Craig Holt Your people are probably the best equipped to deal with the weather. Please keep it in perspective. Examples: jobs training program. The result is that the person gets a job. City of New York example. They had parceled out each piece and were efficient. It took them three days to get to goal of getting people jobs. They were very efficient at their little piece but didn't focus on the broader issue of, "does the person get a job." There was an overlap of departments. Both had child care assistance. Cross over for childcare coverage once person got a job, they had to switch departments and there was a 6-week delay. It is a coordination effort. Senator Randy Phillips Sounds like they needed a One-Stop Shopping Center. Craig Holt Most important thing they needed to do was go to a unified approach to assessment of services. They didn't do it, and this is still going on. It's not just having a good idea. You need to stick to what you commit to do. Page 7, Balanced Set of Measures. Ask ourselves, what did we accomplish. The efficiency is what we are investing in. The effectiveness is what did we accomplish. Efficiency is your cost, volume and output. Effectiveness is more the quality and customer satisfaction. Your customer is your constituency plus the recipient of that service. Reason why this is a balance. "How Well" is not is it cheaper or did we get the results? It's the balance between them. "How Well" is a combination you need to wrestle and define. Page 8, Performance Measurement is... efficiency is making the best use of resources. Effectiveness is how well you delivered your services. Tape: SFC - 99 #25, Side B 2:00 PM Craig Holt (Example of Hawaii restaurant experience.) Not just what did the customer think, its how well did we do? Senator Randy Phillips I had one constituent unhappy with road service. He didn't know he was paying for limited road services. Once I explained, he was more satisfied. Craig Holt Important to talk to them. Can't just be customer driven. It is also understanding what you are able to deliver. Assumption is that you are doing the right thing. You are delivering the service consistent with the mission. If you aren't this doesn't mean anything. Doesn't matter that you are doing really well at delivering a service that nobody wants. I'll talk now of specific measures. This is the level you should now be at. Page 9, Performance Measurement: Efficiency These are specific departments and cost indicators. (List program level measures for the State of Oregon and detail.) This is total cost. This is the cost equation; you also have to look at the other side. FTE is full time equivalency (Continue to list items in handout) Need to define Administration as anything that is not on-the road costs. Receptionist needed to send drivers out to fill a pothole. We look strictly at headquarters. Everyone in an admin position is not necessarily just an administration cost. Direct case management time per long-term care client. (Elderly independent living program example.) The idea is to spend less time with them and to make them feel better about themselves. If we spend more time with them, it defeats the independence purpose Disability determination clearances per total FTE. Small energy loan program costs per loan dollars. Page 10, Performance Measurement: Effectiveness. Average wage at successful closure/living wage. (detail) A lot of this is federally driven. Co-Chair Sean Parnell I want to re-emphasize that we're looking at effectiveness measures. I missed last year the difference between efficiencies and effectiveness. That's why there is confusion on our current measures. We were focused more on one or the other Craig Holt We counseled you that way to more focus you on the results you were trying to accomplish. But it costs something. It's important to look at both and to be clear at what you're looking at. (Continue referring to State of Oregon examples.) You don't need bunches of these things. Two to four of the right ones and you've got it. I want to brag about Child Support Enforcement. Those folks actually set forward a pretty decent set of four measures. All they need is an efficiency one and you're almost there. (Continue referring to State of Oregon examples.) Do you think you might want to look at more often then annually? Probably quarterly or semi-annually Guess who developed these measures? Employees of the departments themselves. It's pretty significant because these are pretty well focused. Honed, by the way, through their legislative process. There was some negotiation. Quite frankly, there was a disagreement on what the results should be in some agencies. They worked it out. Look at Oregon State Police, Missing Children Recovered. They put that forward. They said we're putting a lot of money into doing this. The other thing is that they did it for themselves. They did not want to forget what they were in the business of doing. When they put this up, their responsiveness went from days to minutes as a target. Senator Randy Phillips Why are police investigating the child abuse cases? Craig Holt The State of Oregon is set up that way. You are asking the right questions. At-fault truck accidents. Their efficiency measure was safety inspection per person. They said their big focus was on inspection, so when they are inspecting it's going to be safer. Can we do a very good job at inspecting and still have a truck slip through that's unsafe? If it's happening all the time we've got a problem. Oregon found that they wanted to catch the abusive people that violated the weight requirements. They have moved away from the voluntary fixed scale weigh-ins, because the drivers who used them were those in compliance. They started "roving investigation sites." Guess which one was more effective in deterring weight violations? Representative Con Bunde I have this vision of people inspecting and finding very safe trucks driven by psychopaths. Craig Holt That would hit this definition. Their mission was improved road safety. Roving inspection sites was a method in achieving that. They had another program called driver education. You can have a perfectly safe truck driven by someone on drugs. They started seeing some of this stuff and so it led them into the appropriate conversation. If they said, "we're working as hard as we can with inspections." If you only have one program you will pump more money into as opposed to asking if you're doing the right thing because this is still going up. Page 11, Example Program Performance Measures. This is important because it gets at the question that was asked. Page 12, Detail Behind the Measures. Important for staff and agency people to pay attention to this one. It should have definition of the measure, and what it actually demonstrates and the reporting frequency. (Army Corps of Engineers, Usable Harbors example) Not the one to look at daily or weekly. Your job is to look at performance of overall measures. Page 13, Aligning "Programs" With Results: Family and Youth Services. The result is getting people a job. The "dollars per client" is an efficiency measure. "Percent of clients who get the job" is an effectiveness measure. "Percent of client return" is another effectiveness measure. "Client load/FTE" is another efficiency measure. If you have a current missions and measures program set up for a department take their measures and check off where you think they contribute. You'll see that all the programs are taking money. I would ask everyone in the dept. "what are you doing to help people get a job?" All positions need to clearly understand their part in that. The receptionist should know that his/her job is to take a call from someone and get them connected with a caseworker. Look at the assessment of a client getting a job. They found there was another strategy in keeping the job. It had nothing to do with whether they were in the right job or not. This is a way for you to prioritize the allocation of resources within a program. Page 14, Cascading Performance Measures. This is showing the different levels of measures. Alignment is important. You align to the program. You don't force your activities to fit within a mission. You need to be clear about what the program is and align to it. You don't start at the basis of "here's everything we do, now what's our mission?" The mission should be unifying. It should not be inclusionary. Don't start at the bottom and move back. All it does is justify everything you are doing instead of showing that what is done aligns with the program. In political arenas, agency folks can go here real quickly. Then you become confused and just appropriate funds. Page 15, Why Cascading Measurement is Important. This is an efficiency example for PepsiCo. Profits are efficiency or effectiveness measurements? Senator Randy Phillips The mission is to the shareholders. Craig Holt (Detail the crossover of efficiency and effectiveness.) You need to look at other key things in private enterprise besides making money, market share, customer satisfaction, etc. (Talk about meeting of three vice presidents from Snackfoods, Beverages and Restaurants and explaining to them the net profits and losses. It's important to announce to shareholders the total profits rather than the smaller loss in one of the divisions.) Important to note who uses what information. You need to deal with high level information not the smaller levels. Important information for appropriate people. (Detail the restaurant division and the mission misalignment as the reason for spinning the restaurants off. Not because they were inefficient or effective.) Mission misalignment doesn't mean they are doing a bad job. They could be focused and moving at contrary purposes. Brings the mission piece into this. Page 16, Baseline Targets That Make Sense. Show the importance of having baseline data. Page 17, Uses of Performance Measures. Examples of other governments that have actually used measures. I was asked who was doing the best with performance based budgeting. It is easier for cities to use this system they have fewer issues to deal with. I believe you will see around the country that the big cities will get this, then counties, then some states. I don't know if the federal government will ever get there because it gets so hard to put your finger on it. Representative Con Bunde The psychology of bureaucracy. If I become too efficient and too effective, I get less money. The bureaucracy I get to control and that makes me feel good decreases, so why would I want to become more effective and more efficient? Craig Holt That's why the balance of efficient and effective is so important. It's not just about being efficient or effective. (Quote State of Oregon, Adult and Family Services. Their mission was client self-sufficiency. He said they should be a ten-person agency. They started with 1000 people.) Representative Con Bunde That is the key. You have to have someone willing to work himself/herself out of a job. Craig Holt They have to be focused on their mission. Road maintenance will never go away. Some have a mission that is respectively a short-term focus. In the 1960s and 1970s there was lots of money. You would find out the Legislative priorities and create programs to fit those. There are people brought up in the government sector who are trained that way. They are not stupid; they just know it a certain way. Don't think it's a matter of working yourself out of a job, just refocusing on your mission. Then you can move in different directions. You probably have plenty of work to do. Senator Pete Kelly I disagree with Representative Con Bunde. I see people who want to do a good job but they are just resistant to change. Everyone wants to be proud of the work they do. Representative Con Bunde Welfare to work in Alaska. We've moved 30- percent of people off welfare. We should start reducing the bureaucracy. But that's not going to happen. Craig Holt It's one thing to get a job, but another to keep them there. May be time to redirect their missions and monitor for the next 3-5 years. You want them to keep their jobs because they are effective. You will see many people who can't keep their welfare jobs. Representative Gail Phillips If more states could put this into place, at some point it should be logical that the federal government could also do it for those basic policies like education and transportation. The things that would effect the nation as a whole and don't have that many variables because of the state. I think its something we should continue to work for. Should get feds to implement. Craig Holt I think it will bring more focus to the federal sector when the state level really gets focused. Right now the states are taking a lot that used to be federal purvey because they have to implement it and are focused on service delivery. I believe that's going to happen. (List other governments using the Methods and Measures process.) Page 18, Key Questions - for Discussion with Agencies. Things you should ask agencies. This is not your job, but it is theirs to explain to you. Senator Randy Phillips Is this your priority? I think determining who are your customers is most important. Craig Holt If you ask agencies first, you drop to the Taco Bell level and will get all. Senator Randy Phillips I have my constituents as my customers. Craig Holt This isn't micromanaging. Your constituents are your customers. What did you do last year? What are you going to do different this year? Doing the same thing in a different environment is not going to give you same result. You are investing, not spending the money. You need to change your definition. Senator Pete Kelly Is that the purvey of the Executive Branch? How did you do last year? Craig Holt Clarify You need to ask agency and staff questions. Is their duplicity and are other options viable? Page 19. Caution - Simplify to Succeed. (Hunting analogy) Senator Randy Phillips I mentioned this last year, and I want to say again. Don't let the perfect ruin the good. Craig Holt It's more important to measure the right thing than the measure itself. Representative Con Bunde So an inaccurate measurement of the right thing is better than a good measurement of the wrong thing? Craig Holt There needs to be more quarterly reporting. Page 20. City of Seattle. Get into use quickly; don't spend too much time on the details. Tape: SFC - 99 #26, Side A Senator Dave Donley We won't be able to do without the support of the executive branch. Craig Holt Important to have cooperation. You need to agree on a common approach, a focused set of terms. Can't just give your measures and they return theirs. Your working on this encourages me. Representative Gail Phillips Have you sat down and given this kind of in-depth presentation to the committee before? Craig Holt I don't think so. Unknown We have had short presentations. Senator Dave Donley We need to have a way to make the executive branch accountable. Senator Pete Kelly We only have check-writing power. Representative Eldon Mulder Senator Dave Donley has a good point. This is an argument for a more empowered Legislative Budget and Audit Committee. (Refer to the Executive Budget Act and quote.) We are supposed to be getting quarterly reports. If we're not here they don't have anyone to give them to. We should empower the Legislative Budget and Audit Committee more. Senator Pete Kelly Did it work well in a noncompetitive environment? Can it work in a competitive environment? What I found is that agencies were less able to handle. The process was probably better for private agencies. Craig Holt I talk about results. TCQ discussion Senator Pete Kelly Craig Holt Representative Con Bunde Our goal is to get reelected. We need to get Office of Management and Budget on board. With the competitive nature, we run into difficulties. What can we do to appeal to them? Craig Holt I was encouraged by six agencies that I specifically listed. Co-Chair Sean Parnell We need to go into subcommittee and have a commitment. We need to hold them accountable. It's up to each of us to help hold them accountable. Get them in the public spotlight and praise if they follow or take action if not. I'm committed to further imbedding missions and measures into our system. If not we are just spending money. Representative Gail Phillips Question on accountability. Last year. Co-Chair Sean Parnell hit right on the head. If we are going to have results we need they have to identify the issue in the subcommittee. Craig Holt It is critical to focus on how not why. Last year you asked why, this year asking how that's a big step forward. Co-Chair Sean Parnell Craig Holt is available today and tomorrow for individual consultations with subcommittee chairs. I encourage you to schedule a time with him. Take a specific budget and division established last year. Look for one not yet done. Representative Eldon Mulder We do have a list of those done last year. Encourage new members to work with Craig Holt. We only did one maybe two divisions within each department. Co-Chair Sean Parnell Representative Con Bunde Thanks for beginning the process. I delegate to the co-chairs to work with Office of Management and Budget Co-Chair Sean Parnell I sent personally invitation to Office of Management and Budget today. I expect to continue to work with them. Representative Eldon Mulder Acknowledge Jack Krienheder from Office of Management and Budget is here today. Co-Chair Sean Parnell Adjourn 9:56 am. SENATE FINANCE COMMITTEE LOG NOTES 2/10/99 Page 1