HOUSE SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON WORLD TRADE AND STATE/FEDERAL RELATIONS March 31, 1999 5:35 p.m. MEMBERS PRESENT Representative Ramona Barnes, Chair Representative Gail Phillips Representative Joe Green Representative Ethan Berkowitz Representative Reggie Joule MEMBERS ABSENT Representative John Cowdery, Vice Chair Representative Beverly Masek COMMITTEE CALENDAR * HOUSE JOINT RESOLUTION NO. 26 Relating to establishing maritime boundaries with Canada. - MOVED CSHJR 26(WTR) OUT OF COMMITTEE * HOUSE JOINT RESOLUTION NO. 27 Relating to the maritime boundary between Alaska and the former Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. - MOVED CSHJR 27(WTR) OUT OF COMMITTEE (* First public hearing) PREVIOUS ACTION BILL: HJR 26 SHORT TITLE: ALASKA MARITIME BOUNDARY WITH CANADA SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVES(S) COGHILL Jrn-Date Jrn-Page Action 3/10/99 410 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S) 3/10/99 410 (H) WTR, STATE AFFAIRS 3/30/99 Text (H) WTR AT 5:30 PM CAPITOL 124 POSTPONED TO 3/31/99 3/31/99 Text (H) WTR AT 5:30 PM CAPITOL 124 BILL: HJR 27 SHORT TITLE: ALASKA/RUSSIA MARITIME BOUNDARY SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVES(S) COGHILL Jrn-Date Jrn-Page Action 3/10/99 410 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S) 3/10/99 410 (H) WTR, STATE AFFAIRS 3/30/99 Text (H) WTR AT 5:30 PM CAPITOL 124 POSTPONED TO 3/31/99 3/31/99 Text (H) WTR AT 5:30 PM CAPITOL 124 WITNESS REGISTER VINCE O'SHEA, Captain United States Coast Guard P.O. Box 25517 Juneau, Alaska 99802 Telephone: (907) 463-2226 POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HJR 26. REPRESENTATIVE JOHN COGHILL, JR. Alaska State Legislature Capitol Building, Room 416 Juneau, Alaska 99801 Telephone: (907) 465-3258 POSITION STATEMENT: Testified as sponsor of HJR 26 and HJR 27. MARK SEIDENBERG, Vice-Chairman State Department Watch P.O. Box 7981 Northridge, California 91327 Telephone: (818) 363-6210 POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HJR 26 and HJR 27. CARL OLSON, Chairman State Department Watch P.O. Box 65398 Washington, D.C. 20035 Telephone: (703) 276-3330 POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HJR 26 and HJR 27. RYNNIEVA MOSS, Legislative Assistant to Representative John Coghill, Jr. Alaska State Legislature Capitol Building, Room 416 Juneau, Alaska 99801 Telephone: (907) 465-4530 POSITION STATEMENT: Offered technical amendment to HJR 27 on behalf of sponsor. ACTION NARRATIVE TAPE 99-08, SIDE A Number 0001 CHAIR RAMONA BARNES called the House Special Committee on World Trade and State/Federal Relations meeting to order at 5:35 p.m. Members present at the call to order were Representatives Barnes, Phillips, Green and Berkowitz; Representative Joule joined the meeting soon after the call to order. Representative Cowdery and Masek were not present. HJR 26 - ALASKA MARITIME BOUNDARY WITH CANADA [Contains discussion of HJR 27] Number 0154 CHAIR BARNES announced that the first order of business would be House Joint Resolution No. 26, relating to establishing maritime boundaries with Canada. She invited Captain O'Shea from the U.S. Coast Guard to come forward and testify first, as he had time constraints. VINCE O'SHEA, Captain, United States Coast Guard, reminded the committee that he had appeared last year; there was a transcript from that meeting that he had reviewed, on his way over, which provided a good summary on the Coast Guard's perspective. He pointed out that since he gave that testimony, the Canadian government had closed the disputed area in Dixon Entrance last summer (1998) to commercial salmon fishing, due to the poor returns and the problems with their salmon stocks. He believes it was on July 2, 1998, that the state of Alaska reciprocated by closing commercial fishing to Alaskan fisherman in the disputed area, as well. MR. O'SHEA referred to a map and pointed out the difference between the U.S. claim - the equidistant line - and the "AB" line that the Canadians claim as the maritime boundary. He noted that as a result of that closure, it was a very quiet summer in Dixon Entrance for the U.S. Coast Guard, although they had two boats there, primarily for search-and-rescue for the U.S. gillnet fleet and to ensure there were no problems for charter boat operators who occasionally go there. Number 0380 REPRESENTATIVE PHILLIPS referred to recent boardings of commercial vessels in Glacier Bay National Park and Preserve, by National Park Service personnel. She said she hopes that at no time would that argument [for closures to commercial fishing] be extended into this area. Number 0498 REPRESENTATIVE JOHN COGHILL, JR., Alaska State Legislature, sponsor, asked the committee to consider both HJR 26 and HJR 27. Noting that the Senate had not passed the previous resolutions, he said it is important to continue to assert this. Once again, on disputed territory, whether on the Russian front or the Canadian front, there needs to be some action to settle for good the peacekeeping relationships. It is important for Alaskans to be at the negotiating table, and for there to be a disclosure to Alaskans on what the process is. These two resolutions are intended to bring these issues out. REPRESENTATIVE COGHILL offered two technical amendments that he suggested may make the language better. Number 0621 REPRESENTATIVE BERKOWITZ made a motion to adopt Amendment 1, which read: Page 2, line 17 after the words "the federal government to": Delete: initiate Insert: pursue CHAIR BARNES asked whether there was any objection. There being none, Amendment 1 was adopted. Number 0646 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN made a motion to adopt Amendment 2, which read: Page 2, line 24, after the word "public": Delete: "input and hearings during the negotiating process; and" Insert: disclosure and hearings after the negotiating process and prior to ratification; and CHAIR BARNES asked whether there was any objection. There being none, Amendment 2 was adopted. Number 0680 REPRESENTATIVE BERKOWITZ referred to page 2 of HJR 26, lines 21 and 22, which talks about the right of Alaska to approve provisions. He said his reading of the U.S. Constitution suggests that Alaska doesn't have that right in an international agreement. REPRESENTATIVE COGHILL said he might agree, except that it has to do with sovereign boundaries within the state of Alaska. He believes under Article X of the [U.S.] Constitution, Alaska is well within its bounds to request presence at the table, even though the state won't be negotiating national treaties. He pointed out that there is a lot of fishing and oil development from which Alaska will derive a direct benefit. REPRESENTATIVE BERKOWITZ clarified that what is being discussed is the right to approve, and Alaska doesn't have the right to approve anything in an international agreement, although it does have the right to be at the table. He doesn't want to delude the public into thinking that something that goes through Congress must be approved by the legislature. Number 0800 CHAIR BARNES said Alaska is being discussed as a sovereign state, and any changes to the state's boundaries, under the Alaska Statehood Act and the statehood compact, need to be approved by Alaskans. She asked Mr. Coghill if that is what he is trying to say. REPRESENTATIVE COGHILL said that is part of it. However, the main reason for the language is that if Alaska is going to sit at the table, they are asking for the right to have a say, rather than just to observe. REPRESENTATIVE BERKOWITZ reiterated that the state does not have that right, but if there is legal authority that suggests that they do, he would like to see it. He restated that it is part of the federal constitution. Number 0912 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN wondered if the concern would be satisfied if on page 2 of HJR 26, line 22, the committee substitutes "testify on" for "approve." REPRESENTATIVE PHILLIPS suggested making it even stronger by substituting, "to be included at the table"; she acknowledged that it already says, "on the negotiating team." Number 0946 MARK SEIDENBERG, Vice-Chairman, State Department Watch, testified via teleconference from Seattle, Washington. He explained that when the United States entered into negotiations with Great Britain on the Webster-Ashburton Treaty in 1842, to set the state boundary for Maine, commissioners were appointed by Massachusetts and Maine to sit at the table; the United States informed Great Britain that they had to have the approval of both Massachusetts and Maine in order for the treaty to go through, which was a constitutional requirement. That is one of many examples where commissioners have been appointed, and it is one of the main precedents for not taking territory from a state without the consent of the state. MR. SEIDENBERG told members that the problem here is that general government tends to ignore Alaska, a sovereign state since 1959, and this is an issue of sovereignty. Noting that they are talking about Canada here, he pointed out that Great Britain determined the boundaries with Canada until the late 1930s, when Canada got authority to discuss boundary issues with the United States. REPRESENTATIVE BERKOWITZ requested that Mr. Seidenberg forward those precedents to him. Number 1060 REPRESENTATIVE BERKOWITZ made a motion to move HJR 26, as amended, from the committee with individual recommendations and the attached fiscal note(s). There being no objection, CSHJR 26(WTR) moved out of the House Special Committee on World Trade and State/Federal Relations. HJR 27 - ALASKA/RUSSIA MARITIME BOUNDARY [Contains discussion of HJR 26] Number 1092 CHAIR BARNES announced that the next order of business would be House Joint Resolution No. 27, relating to the maritime boundary between Alaska and the former Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. She asked that Mr. Olson and Mr. Seidenberg share their expertise on information pertinent to HJR 27, rather than having Representative Coghill, sponsor, give opening comments. Number 1168 CARL OLSON, Chairman, State Department Watch, testified via teleconference from California. He emphasized that negotiations of a maritime boundary between the United States and Russia impinge upon Alaska in many different areas. He said these negotiations are important to Alaska with respect to sovereignty, boundaries, and its own property. He related that the United States Department of State is responsible for negotiating these kinds of executive agreements. It is, at this point, only an executive agreement, not a treaty, as it has never been ratified by the Russian side. It can easily be modified, rescinded, or amended, for example. MR. OLSON explained that approximately a year and a half ago, the Russians were discontent with "how much they already got out of the State Department, and they'd been demanding to get additional seabed rights - I think it's about 40,000 (indisc.--simult. speech). He indicated that the Russians now would like the maritime boundary to be moved closer to Alaska in order to obtain an additional 300 million pounds of fish per year from the Bering Sea. He said unfortunately the State Department is very accommodating about having discussions over this kind of relinquishment, which is being conducted by Thomas Pickering, Under Secretary for Political Affairs. MR. OLSON told members, "You can't take away territory from a state without the consent of the state." He said he doubts that in Alaska there would have to be input, participation or hearings on this issue, let alone hearing from the rest of the American public, which is very much impacted by it. The resolution is another impetus to get this out in the open and get the rights of Alaskans and the American public initiated in here. He believes this issue is therefore even more critical than it was a year before. REPRESENTATIVE PHILLIPS, acting as chair, thanked Mr. Olson for his comments and asked if members had any additional questions. Number 1319 REPRESENTATIVE BERKOWITZ noted Mr. Olson's article in Orbis, contained in committee packets, then said he has questions about the strength of American assertions of sovereignty in the [Russian] Arctic. He said as he understands it, discovery must be followed by effective occupation. He stated, "I don't know what sort of effective occupation we've exerted over some of these islands in recent years, or continuing assertions of sovereignty." Number 1401 MARK SEIDENBERG, Vice-Chairman, State Department Watch, testified again via teleconference from Seattle, Washington. He explained: Basically, you have to look at the Organic Act of 1884. The Organic Act of 1884 includes two forms of territory, one which was included in the 1867 Convention of Washington, which was Russia's (indisc.) to the United States, which is this little area in what's main Alaska, and some of the islands - not all of them. And then the other territory that was included in the 1994 Organic Act was that territory known as Alaska. The practice was that during the Treasury Department phase for administrating Alaska, from 1877 to 1884, they would put in ... their files everything that was added to Alaska. And those were transferred to the Interior Department in 1884, pursuant to the ... 1884 Organic Act. Wrangell Islands, which was the largest of the group, for an example, ... was "American discoveried" - the Russians never knew about it. Then, in 1881, Calvin Hooper (ph), who was the de facto governor of Alaska, went there and annexed it. Then, in complying with the requirements at that time, occupation was considered effective, because they included it in Alaska, and then the ... U.S. government started issuing publications, starting from before the turn of the century, and then as late as 1977, on ... U.S. Department of Interior documents, including within the state. MR. SEIDENBERG offered to go into a longer history, about the U.S. Navy's survey of it in the 1930s. He also offered to send Representative Berkowitz a copy of a journal article he wrote for "Muskox" (ph) at the University of Saskatchewan on the subject. Number 1538 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked if there were any year-round residents on the islands being discussed. MR. SEIDENBERG responded that Wrangell Island has year-round residents, but all the other islands are deserted. REPRESENTATIVE PHILLIPS asked how many people reside on Wrangell Island. MR. SEIDENBERG estimated from his last visit to Wrangell Island, in 1995, that 150 people resided there, although that might have changed. At that time, Russia maintained approximately 18 troops there, including 17 enlisted troops and one lieutenant, although they had been talking about moving the military off the island altogether. RYNNIEVA MOSS, Legislative Assistant to Representative John Coghill, Jr., Alaska State Legislature, informed members that Representative Coghill would like to make a technical amendment to HJR 27, changing the spelling of "Wrangel Island" to "Wrangell Island", as he had received information that the latter spelling is preferred. REPRESENTATIVE GREEN made a motion to adopt the technical amendment. REPRESENTATIVE PHILLIPS asked if there was any objection to the amendment, which would change the spelling throughout HJR 27. There being no objection, she stated that a committee substitute would be ordered for HJR 27. She asked whether there were further questions or testimony. Number 1647 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN made a motion to move HJR 27 [as amended] from committee with individual recommendations. Number 1662 REPRESENTATIVE BERKOWITZ objected for a brief discussion. He pointed out that the tone of HJR 26 is more statesmanlike than that of HJR 27, which seems to have an angry tone. He recommended that HJR 27 be given a more diplomatic tone in keeping with the respectful relationship with the federal government. REPRESENTATIVE GREEN concurred. MS. MOSS asked Representative Berkowitz to bring any suggestions to the sponsor's office. REPRESENTATIVE PHILLIPS asked whether there was any objection to moving the resolution from the committee. REPRESENTATIVE JOULE informed Mr. Seidenberg that he looked forward to receiving the information from him. MR. SEIDENBERG specified that he would be glad to send the information on the oral histories of the Eskimo residents of Wrangell Island. REPRESENTATIVE PHILLIPS thanked participants for their time. She then noted that CSHJR 27(WTR) was moved from the House Special Committee on World Trade and State/Federal Relations without any objection. ADJOURNMENT Number 1788 REPRESENTATIVE PHILLIPS adjourned the House Special Committee on World Trade and State/Federal Relations meeting at 5:59 p.m.