ALASKA STATE LEGISLATURE
HOUSE STATE AFFAIRS STANDING COMMITTEE
March 24, 2015
8:06 a.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Representative Bob Lynn, Chair
Representative Wes Keller, Vice Chair
Representative David Talerico
Representative Liz Vazquez
Representative Louise Stutes
Representative Max Gruenberg
Representative Jonathan Kreiss-Tomkins
MEMBERS ABSENT
All members present
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
HOUSE BILL NO. 77
"An Act relating to training regarding disabilities for police
officers, probation officers, parole officers, correctional
officers, and village public safety officers; relating to
guidelines for drivers when encountering or being stopped by a
peace officer; relating to driver's license examinations; and
relating to a voluntary disability designation on a state
identification card and a driver's license."
- HEARD & HELD
HOUSE BILL NO. 142
"An Act establishing Elders' Day."
- MOVED HB 142 OUT OF COMMITTEE
HOUSE CONCURRENT RESOLUTION NO. 7
Proclaiming April 2015 as Child Abuse Prevention Month; and
proclaiming April 3, 2015, as Go Blue Friday.
- MOVED CSHCR 7(STA) OUT OF COMMITTEE
HOUSE JOINT RESOLUTION NO. 14
Making application to the United States Congress to call a
convention of the states to propose a countermand amendment to
the Constitution of the United States as provided under art. V,
Constitution of the United States; and urging the legislatures
of the other 49 states to make the same application.
- MOVED CSHJR 14(STA) OUT OF COMMITTEE
HOUSE CONCURRENT RESOLUTION NO. 4
Relating to the duties of delegates selected by the legislature
to attend a convention of the states called under art. V,
Constitution of the United States, to consider a countermand
amendment to the Constitution of the United States; establishing
as a joint committee of the legislature the Delegate Credential
Committee and relating to the duties of the committee; providing
for an oath for delegates and alternates to a countermand
amendment convention; providing for a chair and assistant chair
of the state's countermand amendment delegation; providing for
the duties of the chair and assistant chair; providing
instructions for the selection of a convention president; and
providing specific language for the countermand amendment on
which the state's convention delegates are authorized by the
legislature to vote to approve.
- MOVED CSHCR 4(STA) OUT OF COMMITTEE
PREVIOUS COMMITTEE ACTION
BILL: HB 77
SHORT TITLE: DISABILITY:ID/LICENSE AND TRAINING RQMTS.
SPONSOR(s): REPRESENTATIVE(s) THOMPSON
01/23/15 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS
01/23/15 (H) STA, FIN
03/24/15 (H) STA AT 8:00 AM CAPITOL 106
BILL: HB 142
SHORT TITLE: ESTABLISH ELDERS' DAY
SPONSOR(s): REPRESENTATIVE(s) FOSTER
03/09/15 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS
03/09/15 (H) STA
03/24/15 (H) STA AT 8:00 AM CAPITOL 106
BILL: HCR 7
SHORT TITLE: CHILD ABUSE PREVENTION MONTH
SPONSOR(s): REPRESENTATIVE(s) TARR
03/06/15 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS
03/06/15 (H) STA
03/24/15 (H) STA AT 8:00 AM CAPITOL 106
BILL: HJR 14
SHORT TITLE: CALL FOR US COUNTERMAND CONVENTION
SPONSOR(s): REPRESENTATIVE(s) HUGHES
02/11/15 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS
02/11/15 (H) STA, JUD
03/19/15 (H) STA AT 8:00 AM CAPITOL 106
03/19/15 (H) Heard & Held
03/19/15 (H) MINUTE(STA)
03/24/15 (H) STA AT 8:00 AM CAPITOL 106
BILL: HCR 4
SHORT TITLE: US COUNTERMAND CONVENTION DELEGATES
SPONSOR(s): REPRESENTATIVE(s) HUGHES
02/11/15 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS
02/11/15 (H) STA, JUD, FIN
03/19/15 (H) STA AT 8:00 AM CAPITOL 106
03/19/15 (H) Heard & Held
03/19/15 (H) MINUTE(STA)
03/24/15 (H) STA AT 8:00 AM CAPITOL 106
WITNESS REGISTER
REPRESENTATIVE STEVE THOMPSON
Alaska State Legislature
Juneau, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: As prime sponsor, introduced HB 77.
JANE PIERSON, Staff
Representative Steve Thompson
Alaska State Legislature
Juneau, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Presented HB 77 on behalf of Representative
Thompson, prime sponsor.
AMY ERICKSON, Director
Division of Motor Vehicles
Department of Administration
Anchorage, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified during the hearing on HB 77.
JUANITA WEBB
Wall Busters Advocacy Group ("Wall Busters")
Fairbanks, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified during the hearing on HB 77.
PATRICK REINHART, Director
Governor's Council on Disabilities and Special Education
Anchorage, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of HB 77.
ARTHUR DELAUNE, Member
Wall Busters Advocacy Group ("Wall Busters")
Fairbanks, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified during the hearing on HB 77
KELLY ALZAHARNA, Director
Alaska Police Standards Council (APSC)
Department of Public Safety (DPS)
Juneau, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified during the hearing on HB 77.
REBECCA TRAYLOR, Member
Wall Busters Advocacy Group ("Wall Busters")
Fairbanks, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified during the hearing on HB 77.
REPRESENTATIVE NEIL FOSTER
Alaska State Legislature
Juneau, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: As prime sponsor, introduced HB 142.
ANDREA WATTS, Staff
Representative Neil Foster
Alaska State Legislature
Juneau, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Presented HB 142 on behalf of
Representative Foster, prime sponsor.
ALBERT NINGEULOOK
Shishmaref, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of HB 142.
RAY FRIEDLANDER, Staff
Representative Geran Tarr
Alaska State Legislature
Juneau, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Presented HCR 7 on behalf of Representative
Tarr, prime sponsor.
STUART KRUEGER, Staff
Representative Shelley Hughes
Alaska State Legislature
Juneau, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Presented HCR 4 and HJR 14 on behalf of
Representative Hughes, prime sponsor.
REPRESENTATIVE SHELLEY HUGHES
Alaska State Legislature
Juneau, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: As sponsor, addressed questions during the
combined hearing on HCR 4 and HJR 14.
STUART THOMPSON
Matanuska-Susitna, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of HCR 4 and HJR 14.
MIKE COONS, National Director
Citizen Initiatives
Palmer, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in response to other testimony
during the hearing on HCR 4 and HJR 14.
ACTION NARRATIVE
8:06:01 AM
[Due to technical difficulty, the call to order was not
recorded.]
CHAIR BOB LYNN called the House State Affairs Standing Committee
meeting to order at 8:06 a.m. Representatives Keller, Kreiss-
Tomkins, Stutes, Talerico, Vazquez, and Lynn were present at the
call to order. Representative Gruenberg arrived as the meeting
was in progress.
HB 77-DISABILITY:ID/LICENSE AND TRAINING RQMTS.
8:06:43 AM
CHAIR LYNN announced that the first order of business was HOUSE
BILL NO. 77, "An Act relating to training regarding disabilities
for police officers, probation officers, parole officers,
correctional officers, and village public safety officers;
relating to guidelines for drivers when encountering or being
stopped by a peace officer; relating to driver's license
examinations; and relating to a voluntary disability designation
on a state identification card and a driver's license."
8:06:56 AM
REPRESENTATIVE STEVE THOMPSON, Alaska State Legislature, as
prime sponsor, introduced HB 77, and announced that Jane Pierson
would present the proposed legislation.
8:07:15 AM
JANE PIERSON, Staff, Representative Steve Thompson, Alaska State
Legislature, presented HB 77 on behalf of Representative
Thompson, prime sponsor. She stated that the goal of HB 77 was
to improve communication between law enforcement professionals
and those in other agencies, who may interact with people who
have no apparent disabilities. She said disabilities that are
not apparent to others include the following conditions:
intellectual disability, traumatic brain injury, mental health
conditions, epilepsy, hearing impairment, fetal alcohol spectrum
disorders (FASD), autism, and post-traumatic stress disorder
(PTSD).
MS. PIERSON said there were three components to HB 77. The
first was in regard to identification. She explained that on a
voluntary basis, a person with a disability could get a marker
on his/her license that would discretely inform officials of the
disability. It would require a letter from a doctor or nurse to
qualify for such a marker on the license. The next component
was training, which [would be developed by] the Alaska Police
Standards Council (APSC). Ms. Pierson noted that she had met
with Kelly Alzaharna, the executive director of the council, who
had suggested that any changes to police standards would be
better placed in regulation, rather than statute.
REPRESENTATIVE STUTES asked for clarification.
8:09:23 AM
MS. PIERSON noted that the language on page 2, lines 8-13, of HB
77, described the curriculum requirements, and Ms. Alzaharna had
told her that the reason the requirements would be better
outlined in regulation, was that if they were in statute, they
could grow to be unmanageable. She said the bill sponsor was
working on an amendment to address the issue.
8:10:06 AM
MS. PIERSON said most people did not know the proper protocol to
follow if they were pulled over by an officer. The third
component of HB 77 would propose that the basic protocol was
written in the driver manual and test. Ms. Pierson said she
thought [the curriculum requirements] should be in regulation,
as Ms. Alzaharna had recommended.
MS. PIERSON stated that sometimes people with disabilities tried
to hide them, pretended to understand their rights, did not
understand or hear commands, were overwhelmed with the presence
of authority, or had trouble processing or remembering
information. She said the proposed legislation would bring
awareness to the fact that the first interaction a person had
with a peace officer may generate the outcome of the entire
conversation. Further, it would give people with hidden
disabilities a voice.
8:11:53 AM
REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON relayed that the idea for the proposed
legislation came from people who shared stories about
individuals who had been stopped by a police officer and
handcuffed for being intoxicated, when the individuals actually
were disabled. He said if the officer had had proper training,
he would have been able to figure out what was really occurring.
CHAIR LYNN asked if there would be any method by which the
proposed marker on the disabled person's driver's license could
link to a database that would inform the officer of the specific
disability.
MS. PIERSON answered that she thought the fiscal note that would
accompany such technology would "be enough to sink the bill";
however, she ventured the technology could be added further
along in time. She indicated that the proposed legislation, as
written, would [provide a marker on the license], which would
start the conversation between the officer and the individual,
regarding the individual's disability. In response to a follow-
up question, she said the sponsor was not considering coding the
disabilities, but rather to offer a more universal symbol on the
license indicating a person with a hidden disability.
CHAIR LYNN asked if, under HB 77, those individuals with hidden
disabilities would be able to go to the Division of Motor
Vehicles (DMV) for a new license.
MS. PIERSON answered that they could. She continued, "There is
a $5 fee if you are getting a new license. Other than that, as
long as they have a correct letter from their doctor, they
could."
8:14:37 AM
REPRESENTATIVE STUTES suggested that the requirement for the
letter should omit the nurse and add a physician assistant (PA)
instead. She opined that HB 77 was "a great bill." She
indicated she knew about a situation where a person with a
hidden disability not only got put in handcuffs, but was also
Tasered.
8:15:41 AM
MS. PIERSON directed attention to page 3, lines 6-7, which read
as follows:
To receive the designation, the person shall provide
proof of the disability from a person licensed as a
physician or physician assistant under AS 08.64, as an
advanced nurse practitioner under AS 08.68, or as a
licensed psychologist under AS 08.86.
MS. PIERSON, in response to Chair Lynn, said a psychiatrist
would be included because he/she was a medical doctor.
8:16:33 AM
REPRESENTATIVE VAZQUEZ determined that the aforementioned
language on page 3, lines 6-7, aligned with language on page 4,
lines 25-28.
8:17:13 AM
REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON related that some people with hidden
disabilities did not want those disabilities pointed out;
therefore, he emphasized the voluntary nature of the proposal to
have the indication on a driver's license.
CHAIR LYNN pointed out that the indicator on the driver's
license would be visible to other people who asked to see a
license, such as airport security or a person selling alcohol.
REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON responded that was correct.
8:17:52 AM
CHAIR LYNN offered his understanding that the bill sponsor
wished to return to the committee with a committee substitute.
REPRESENTATIVE THOMPSON confirmed that was correct.
8:18:04 AM
REPRESENTATIVE KELLER observed that the fiscal note mentioned
there would be some modifications to the manual published by the
DMV, and he asked what those modifications would be.
MS. PIERSON said the modification would be the aforementioned
list of protocol regarding how to act when approached by a
police officer. She indicated that since the DMV revised the
manual every year, the addition of the proposed language would
cost the state nothing.
8:18:41 AM
REPRESENTATIVE VAZQUEZ said she had spoken to the commissioner
and deputy commissioner of the Department of Public Safety
(DPS), and they both said they thought the proposed legislation
would be "reasonable to implement." She said she wanted that in
writing for the record.
MS. PIERSON stated that was something the sponsor would obtain
by working with the APSC.
REPRESENTATIVE VAZQUEZ said she also wanted feedback from the
DMV. She opined that HB 77 was excellent legislation. She
emphasized there was a strong training component, as noted by
the bill sponsor in his three-page handout [included in the
committee packet] entitled, "Training in recognizing non-
apparent disabilities."
8:20:30 AM
AMY ERICKSON, Director, Division of Motor Vehicles (DMV),
Department of Administration, stated that the division would
have no problem implementing HB 77.
8:20:42 AM
REPRESENTATIVE STUTES said she presumed that because the
indicator on the driver's license would be voluntary, there
would be no issue related to the Health Insurance Portability
and Accountability Act (HIPA).
MS. PIERSON indicated that was her understanding, but said she
could check.
REPRESENTATIVE STUTES recommended doing so.
8:21:25 AM
JUANITA WEBB, Wall Busters Advocacy Group ("Wall Busters"),
began her testimony by relating that Wall Busters advocated for
disabled and senior individuals. For example, she said the
group was heavily involved with a campaign to get the local
fairgrounds paved. She stated that each year Wall Busters held
a legislative luncheon to discuss issues with legislators. She
indicated that Wall Busters had worked with the legislature to
bring forward the legislation to address this issue, which she
said extends nationwide.
MS. WEBB said [articles entitled, "How Misunderstanding
Disability Leads to Police Violence," by David M. Perry and
Lawrence Carter-Long, 5/6/14, and "People With Disabilities Half
of People Killed by Cops; Disability Rights Groups Protest," by
Joyce Chediac, 1/24/15, included in the committee packet]
highlighted the outcomes of different situations that had
happened throughout the country. She referred to her personal
story [in a letter to the bill sponsor, included in the
committee packet]. She said she would never have imagined she
would [have had an experience that] gave her a better
understanding of what some people with disabilities experience.
She relayed that her husband was legally blind, and she had
experienced people talking to her instead of him or speaking
loudly to him. She stated that unless a person was living with
a disability, he/she could not fully understand it.
MS. WEBB said she thought the proposed legislation boiled down
to one thing: education, both for people with disabilities and
the people who interact with them. She indicated there may be a
situation in which a person with a disability may not be able to
communicate with an officer, and the marker on the card, along
with the training of the officer in what to do in such a
situation, would bring about a better outcome. She thanked the
bill sponsor.
8:25:11 AM
MS. WEBB referred again to [the article by Joyce Chediac], and
she read [a portion of the final paragraph], which she said
summed up her beliefs. It read as follows:
As a member of a community that supports justice and
inclusion, we do not have the luxury to stand by when
injustice is blatantly taking place in any form, nor
should we be satisfied to wait for other communities
to ask for our help. Civil rights, respect and
justice are due to all.
8:25:44 AM
CHAIR LYNN remarked that getting pulled over by an officer could
render someone "semi-traumatized," and he ventured that the
reaction for someone with a disability could be exponentially
greater.
8:26:09 AM
PATRICK REINHART, Director, Governor's Council on Disabilities
and Special Education, testified that the council had fully
vetted the issues related to HB 77 and fully supported the
proposed legislation for its intent to train people with
disabilities how to act when pulled over by an officer and to
train officers how they should interact with people with
disabilities. Further, he said the fact that having a marker on
the license would be voluntary would make HB 77 more palatable
for some.
CHAIR LYNN talked about the importance of everyone learning what
to do when an officer stops his/her vehicle. He indicated he
would encourage people to get out their driver's license and
place both hands on the steering wheel before the officer
approaches the vehicle. He stated that it was dangerous for
officers when they pulled people over because they never know
who was going to be in the vehicle. He said there were
thousands of cases that illustrated that.
8:27:58 AM
ARTHUR DELAUNE, Member, Wall Busters Advocacy Group ("Wall
Busters"), expressed his appreciation for the work of the
sponsor's office on HB 77. He addressed previously asked
questions. First, he said it was not the intent of HB 77 to
allow an officer to recognize a disability through a database.
He explained that linking a marker on a license to a name and
personal information would be a violation of HIPA. He stated
that the entire purpose of the proposed legislation was to train
officers how to treat everyone respectfully, especially those
with hidden disabilities. The marker on the driver's license
would allow the officer to recognize that the person had a
disability and, because of the training, he/she would be able to
ask appropriate questions. It would be up to the individual to
disclose what the disability was and what accommodations he/she
might need in order to create a safe interaction. He said
several years ago concern was expressed that this type of
legislation may make it more dangerous for the police officer,
but he said that "absolutely is not the intent of the bill." He
said the police officer would ensure a safe traffic stop before
looking at the driver's license. He confirmed that the proposed
legislation would not violate HIPA regulations. He said it was
the person's right to disclose a disability, and if he/she did
so, it would be helpful for both parties involved.
8:30:15 AM
MR. DELAUNE said he had two sons diagnosed with FASD, one of
which had an encounter with law enforcement a few years ago. He
said one of the traits of someone with FASD was that he/she
wanted to please the person with whom they were interacting. He
said he had first-hand knowledge that his son was giving answers
to the police officer in order to please the authority, but he
"did not understand what he was giving to the officer," which
resulted in his being arrested. He said there are many stories
nationwide about people who have had bad encounters with police
officers, and he did not think many people did not realize what
an issue this was, because there had been articles about law
enforcement "maybe overreacting to situations." He said the
intent of HB 77 was to train officers not to overreact, but to
use de-escalation techniques in order to diffuse the situation.
He said he had been working most of the summer with the various
police agencies that would be involved. He said under HB 77,
the training would be held at academies in Sitka, Fairbanks, and
Anchorage. He said the academies in Anchorage and Fairbanks had
been using crisis intervention training, and the training
program was due for revamping in April 2015. He indicated that
the same standardized training would be used on all Alaska's
police force, and the component of the training from HB 77 would
create safe practices that would positively affect everyone -
not only those with disabilities.
8:32:51 AM
KELLY ALZAHARNA, Director, Alaska Police Standards Council
(APSC), Department of Public Safety (DPS), stated that the
division was supportive of the training, but thought that it
should be set up in regulation rather than in statute. She
confirmed that all three police academies and the correctional
academy in Alaska "include some form of this training at this
point." She stated, "The council has been working, over the
last year, through a committee, to revise the section in our
regulations that specifies what training goes into each of the
academy curriculum, and this is where we feel we would like to
have this type of training specified."
CHAIR LYNN announced his intent to co-sponsor the proposed
legislation.
8:34:06 AM
REBECCA TRAYLOR, Member, Wall Busters Advocacy Group ("Wall
Busters"), indicated that people with disabilities had come to
the group with stories of being mistreated by police. She
talked about the importance of being treated respectfully, and
said some police, parole, probation, and corrections officers
have trouble recognizing that a person had a disability;
therefore, training would help in that recognition and teach the
proper treatment of those with disabilities. She stated she
supported HB 77 because of the proposed training for officers.
She said Wall Busters Advocacy Group believed that the proposed
legislation would reduce conflict between individuals with
disabilities and law enforcement, which would "make these
encounters safer for all the parties involved."
8:36:56 AM
MS. TRAYLOR relayed a story of a friend and colleague in Wall
Busters who was experiencing mental health issues. She said
police entered the woman's home and arrested her. The woman was
incoherent, but not hostile or violent. She wound up in a
strait jacket in a holding cell overnight, for 18 hours, until
the police could figure out what to do with her. Ms. Traylor
said there are not many facilities in Fairbanks that address
mental health issues; therefore, the idea was to send the woman
to the Alaska Psychiatric Institute (API) in Anchorage. She
offered her understanding that API had become "a dumping ground
for people with hidden disabilities or some kind of behavior
that's not been determined." She said there was more to the
woman's story that she could provide to the committee. She
indicated that this type of story was heard in Fairbanks and had
become a huge problem nationally. She said in many of the cases
in the country that had been in the news, it was later
discovered that the person involved had a mental health issue
and the incident could have been handled differently. She
stated that Wall Busters wanted to be on the forefront of fixing
this situation or at least providing easier solutions for both
sides. She emphasized that the desired solution would make
everyone involved handle each situation better.
8:40:22 AM
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG directed attention to the proposal to
"create a discrete symbol", found on page 3, line 3. He said he
hoped that the sponsor would consider that word, because he
opined the symbol should be immediately visible.
MS. PIERSON responded that there was a current universal symbol.
She said the symbol would be like the one that was currently
used for veterans, which she said was noticeable.
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG suggested the sponsor consider the use
of the word "discreet". He explained that he had interpreted it
as meaning "subtle" rather than "unique." He then directed
attention to a list, which he observed to focus on mental
impairment. He said other disabilities that could be hidden
were: partial hearing loss, epilepsy, and someone who did not
speak English. He said the latter would not usually be called a
disability, except it was in an emergency situation.
8:42:52 AM
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG credited Representative Kreiss-Tomkins
as having handed him a note that explained that the two meanings
of "discreet" and "discrete" were spelled differently.
REPRESENTATIVE VAZQUEZ suggested that perhaps there was a better
word to use because if there was confusion among the committee,
there could be confusion among the public.
CHAIR LYNN announced that he would keep public testimony open on
HB 77.
CHAIR LYNN announced that HB 77 was held over.
HB 142-ESTABLISH ELDERS' DAY
8:44:19 AM
CHAIR LYNN announced that the next order of business was HOUSE
BILL NO. 142, "An Act establishing Elders' Day."
8:44:36 AM
REPRESENTATIVE NEIL FOSTER, Alaska State Legislature, as prime
sponsor, introduced his staff, Ms. Watts, to present HB 142.
8:45:12 AM
ANDREA WATTS, Staff, Representative Neil Foster, Alaska State
Legislature, presented HB 142 on behalf of Representative
Foster, prime sponsor, as follows:
Elders of all cultural and ethnic backgrounds hold a
special place in the hearts of Alaskans. Elders'
knowledge and experiences provide a link from the past
to the present - a link that connects us to our
ancestors. Elders also serve a vital role as teachers
and mentors, guiding younger generations through the
many facets of life. Celebrating and honoring elders
on Winter Solstice - a time of change and optimism -
not only recognizes the value of those that came
before us, but the significant lessons and knowledge
they selflessly leave behind for us to take into the
future.
MS. WATTS offered to answer questions.
CHAIR LYNN asked if, under HB 142, the term "elder" was limited
to Alaska Natives.
MS. WATTS answered that it would include [elders] of all ethnic
and cultural backgrounds.
CHAIR LYNN remarked that elders have a lot to contribute.
8:46:55 AM
REPRESENTATIVE VAZQUEZ said she liked HB 142, but suggested the
word "elder" had a more cultural connotation. She said people
of a certain age were considered "seniors," and she said she
would like "to see this bill encompass that group, too."
CHAIR LYNN echoed that older people who were non-Native were
usually referred to as seniors.
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG agreed that the term "elder" was
usually used to recognize a Native Alaskan senior. He opined
that a definition, one way or the other, was necessary to avoid
confusion.
CHAIR LYNN said when he hears the word "elder," he thinks of
"Native Americans of one type or another."
8:48:50 AM
REPRESENTATIVE FOSTER talked about strengthening "some of the
terms that were already out there." For example, he said there
was already an "Older Alaskans' Day." He indicated a
willingness to accept an amendment.
CHAIR LYNN asked for information related to "Older Alaskans'
Day."
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG asked for the citation related to
"Older Alaskans' Day."
8:49:56 AM
MS. WATTS related that in 2006, Senate Bill 224 was introduced
by Senator Gary Stevens to establish the second Wednesday in
September each year as "Older Alaskans Day". She explained that
the sponsor's choice to use the word "elder" was because of its
definition, which denoted a person who was respected in the
community and who had passed on his/her knowledge to other
generations, regardless of ethnicity or cultural identification.
She said the sponsor felt that "elder" reflected "an Alaskan
perspective on an older person." Notwithstanding that, she
echoed the bill sponsor's willingness to modify the language of
the bill for clarification.
CHAIR LYNN indicated he had no objection to the use of the word
"elders".
REPRESENTATIVE KELLER said he liked the word "elder", thought it
was understood and had a unique meaning, and leaned toward
keeping it in the bill.
CHAIR LYNN said he thought of an elder as an older, wise person.
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG again requested the citation.
8:52:13 AM
MS. WATTS said it was found in AS 44.12.100, which read as
follows [original punctuation provided]:
Sec. 44.12.100. Older Alaskans' Day.
The second Wednesday of September of each year is
established as Older Alaskans' Day to honor residents
of the state who are 60 years of age or older for the
many contributions made by older Alaskans to the
state. The day may be celebrated by public ceremonies
and by quiet appreciation.
8:52:45 AM
REPRESENTATIVE FOSTER said he thought "elder" had various
connotations. Another use of the word was in reference to
church elders.
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG asked the bill sponsor if it was his
intent to also honor church elders under HB 142.
REPRESENTATIVE FOSTER answered, "Our intent is to honor all
elders."
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG said that added another dimension, and
he asked, "Is there anybody else within the meaning of 'elder'
that you're thinking of including?"
REPRESENTATIVE FOSTER answered that his intent was not to
specify what kind of elder, but "to strengthen the celebration
of older Alaskans, older Americans, [and] elders." He said he
thought there were a lot of terms that could explain that, and
he thought it was fitting to add "elders" to the lexicon because
there was already such a heavy use of the word "elder" in
Alaska.
8:55:03 AM
REPRESENTATIVE TALERICO stated his substantial preference for
the term "elder" over "senior." He mentioned Elderhostel groups
in Alaska. He said ["elder"] was a term of respect and, while
"senior" may be commonly used in legal matters, on a personal
basis people tend to use the term "elder" in a fond and
compassionate way.
CHAIR LYNN said he thought of an elder as a respected senior.
REPRESENTATIVE STUTES said she would echo "that very same
sentiment." She said she liked the definition of an elder as
someone who had passed down his/her knowledge. She agreed with
Representative Talerico regarding the preference of elder over
senior.
8:56:40 AM
ALBERT NINGEULOOK said he was an elder at 69 years of age. He
talked about his background and schooling, including his current
effort to earn a Ph.D. in Political Science. He said he was a
member of the local elders committee in Shishmaref, as well as a
member of the local school's strategic planning committee. He
stated his support of HB 142. He said there were many elders in
Alaska, from different ethnic groups, who had guided him and had
a great impact on the person he had become. He recalled one
elder telling him that opening one's eyes in the morning was
like opening a present on Christmas because each day was a new
gift.
8:59:31 AM
MR. NINGEULOOK recited a poem he wrote in 1986, which read as
follows [handwritten, with original punctuation provided]:
A CHILD'S PLEA
A CHILD WONDERING...
WONDERING
WHERE LOVED ONES HAD GONE
HOW LIFE BEGAN IN CHANGING TIMES
AND HOW LIFE WILL BE IN THE GROWN-UP YEARS
A PRECIOUS CHILD
SO FULL OF LIFE AND JOY
WHOSE SHINING FACE RADIATES HOPE AND LOVE TO ALL
THE WORLD
AND A CHILD WHOSE SOUL IS SO INNOCENTLY PURE
UNBLEMISHED FROM THIS WORLD'S STRIFE AND CARE
A WONDERFUL CHILD
WONDERING
ABOUT SO MANY UNANSWERED QUESTIONS
OF THINGS SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND
THIS BEAUTIFUL UNREPLACEABLE CHILD
PLEADING FOR HELP
IN THESE CHANGING TIMES
TIMES THAT CREATE CLOUDS OF QUESTIONS AND
WONDERMENT
IN A PRECIOUS CHILD'S MIND, HEART AND SOUL
AND THE PAIN AND WONDERMENT OF NOT FINDING ANSWERS
OR TO FIND A CARING PERSON TO ASK
MAKES A CHILD CREATE LINES OF WONDERMENT
ON A BEAUTIFUL FACE UNMARKED AND UNTOUCHED BY
WORRYING ABOUT LIFE
IT IS THEN THAT CARING PARENTS, RELATIVES AND SENIOR
ELDERS
CAN HELP THE CHILD BY ANSWERING AND SHOWING THE WAY
WITH PATIENT UNDERSTANDING AND LOVING COMPASSION
AND UNCLOUDING THE QUESTIONS AND WONDERMENTS
AWAY
WE ALL CAN HELP TO GUIDE A PRECIOUS CHILD
WITH LOVE AND TENDER CARE
A PRECIOUS CHILD WHO IS PLEADING FOR HELP AND
GUIDANCE
IN THESE CHALLENGING CHANGING TIMES!!!
MR. NINGEULOOK said he wrote the poem in 1986. He said he went
to high school at Mr. Edgecombe, and he mentioned a now deceased
elder who was like a mother to him in Sitka. He stated his
belief that "there are no sunsets in each one of our lives." He
encouraged the committee to take the time needed to approve the
proposed legislation. He talked about Winter Solstice and
preparing for a harsh climate. He explained he had selected his
poem to read to emphasize a child's point of view and the
importance of elders.
9:03:44 AM
CHAIR LYNN said it seemed that Mr. Ningeulook exemplified the
definition of an elder, and he expressed appreciation for Mr.
Ningeulook's previous remarks about opening one's eyes to a new
day.
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG asked about Mr. Ningeulook's Ph.D.
MR. NINGEULOOK reiterated that he was focused on political
science. He indicated that he was taking classes via the
Internet, and he expressed appreciation for the ability to earn
a degree at his age. He reemphasized his concern about the
guidance of the next generation. He ventured that selecting a
specific date on which to honor elders may remind young people
about the vast knowledge that elders have.
CHAIR LYNN closed public testimony on HB 142.
9:06:21 AM
REPRESENTATIVE VAZQUEZ withdrew her previously stated concern
about using "elders" versus "seniors". She noted that the
aforementioned statute, AS 44.12.100, covers seniors. She
indicated that she liked the term "elder" because of the
connotation of wisdom.
9:07:02 AM
REPRESENTATIVE KELLER moved to report HB 142 out of committee
with individual recommendations and the accompanying fiscal
notes. There being no objection, HB 142 was reported out of the
House State Affairs Standing Committee.
HCR 7-CHILD ABUSE PREVENTION MONTH
9:07:37 AM
CHAIR LYNN announced that the next order of business was HOUSE
CONCURRENT RESOLUTION NO. 7, Proclaiming April 2015 as Child
Abuse Prevention Month; and proclaiming April 3, 2015, as Go
Blue Friday.
9:08:28 AM
RAY FRIEDLANDER, Staff, Representative Geran Tarr, Alaska State
Legislature, presented HCR 7 on behalf of Representative Tarr,
prime sponsor. She said the proposed concurrent resolution
would make April 2015 Child Abuse Prevention Month and proclaim
April 3, 2015, as "Go Blue Friday." She explained that blue was
the color to represent child abuse prevention, and she indicated
that the wearing of blue would show solidarity in putting an end
to violence against children.
MS. FRIEDLANDER related that for the first time last year, the
legislature had passed legislation making April [2014] Child
Prevention Month, and then Governor Sean Parnell issued a
proclamation for April as Child Abuse and Awareness Month. In
2015, Governor Bill Walker did the same. She stated, "We
believe by speaking up and raising awareness, we can be a part
of the preventative efforts in ending child abuse in Alaska."
MS. FRIEDLANDER said that under the Reagan Administration in
1983, the U.S. Congress proclaimed April to be the first
National Child Abuse Prevention Month as a way to show
commitment to finding solutions to end child abuse. Each year,
states and their prospective governors used April as a month to
stand strong for our children.
MS. FRIEDLANDER stated that according to the Child Welfare
League of America, Alaska had one of the five highest rates of
child abuse in the U.S. In 2014, the Office of Children's
Services received more than 40,000 allegations of harm involving
tens of thousands of children. She said tragically children
subject to abuse are likely to become abusers themselves, engage
in criminal activity, and have a whole spread of psychological
and physiological issues. Ms. Friedlander stated, "Every child
deserves a loving family, a safe home, and the opportunity to
grow into an outstanding and responsible member of society ...."
She encouraged the committee to support the proposed
legislation.
9:11:07 AM
CHAIR LYNN asked Ms. Friedlander to explain what changes would
be made under a proposed committee substitute for HCR 7.
MS. FRIEDLANDER answered that because the issue already had
statewide support, there were organizations working toward "Go
Blue Friday" on April 10. The bill sponsor had originally
intended April 3 as the day; therefore, the proposed committee
substitute would change it to April 10, in order to match
statewide efforts.
9:11:36 AM
REPRESENTATIVE KELLER noted that according to Wikipedia, the
color blue is a symbol of twenty different items, but child
abuse was not one of them. He asked if there was anything else
besides child abuse that "Go Blue Friday" would represent.
MS. FRIEDLANDER responded that she could not speak to any other
holidays that incorporated blue, but said she knew that
organizations had been working for the past few years on using
blue as the color of child abuse prevention. In response to
Representative Keller, she indicated that the Alaska Children's
Trust was the impetus for bringing forward a committee
substitute.
9:13:28 AM
REPRESENTATIVE KELLER moved to adopt the proposed committee
substitute (CS) for HCR 7, Version 29-LS0684\H, Glover, 3/19/15,
as a work draft. There being no objection, Version H was before
the committee.
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG said he was aware of "Go Blue Friday"
and expressed appreciation for the sponsor's support of it.
MS. FRIEDLANDER, in response to a question from Representative
Keller, reconfirmed that the term, "Go Blue Friday," as used
under HCR 7, was related specifically to child abuse prevention.
REPRESENTATIVE KELLER reiterated that he had been intrigued by
all the other things he read were symbolized by the color blue.
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG emphasized that the use of the color
blue was being used very particularly for "Go Blue Friday,"
which he indicated was a national campaign.
CHAIR LYNN closed public testimony on HCR 7.
9:16:19 AM
REPRESENTATIVE KELLER moved to report CSHCR 7, Version 29-
LS0684\H, Glover, 3/19/15, out of committee with individual
recommendations and the accompanying fiscal notes. There being
no objection, CSHCR 7(STA) was reported out of the House State
Affairs Standing Committee.
9:16:39 AM
CHAIR LYNN passed the gavel to Vice Chair Keller.
HJR 14-CALL FOR US COUNTERMAND CONVENTION
HCR 4-US COUNTERMAND CONVENTION DELEGATES
9:17:03 AM
VICE CHAIR KELLER announced that the final order of business was
the combined hearing of:
HOUSE JOINT RESOLUTION NO. 14
Making application to the United States Congress to call a
convention of the states to propose a countermand amendment to
the Constitution of the United States as provided under art. V,
Constitution of the United States; and urging the legislatures
of the other 49 states to make the same application.
HOUSE CONCURRENT RESOLUTION NO. 4
Relating to the duties of delegates selected by the legislature
to attend a convention of the states called under art. V,
Constitution of the United States, to consider a countermand
amendment to the Constitution of the United States; establishing
as a joint committee of the legislature the Delegate Credential
Committee and relating to the duties of the committee; providing
for an oath for delegates and alternates to a countermand
amendment convention; providing for a chair and assistant chair
of the state's countermand amendment delegation; providing for
the duties of the chair and assistant chair; providing
instructions for the selection of a convention president; and
providing specific language for the countermand amendment on
which the state's convention delegates are authorized by the
legislature to vote to approve.
[Before the committee, adopted on 3/19/15 as a work draft, was
the proposed committee substitute (CS) for HJR 14, Version 29-
LS0249\E, Gardner, 2/19/15.]
9:19:01 AM
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG moved to adopt the proposed committee
substitute (CS) for HCR 4, Version 29-LS0250\E, Gardner,
3/20/15, as work draft. There being no objection, Version E was
before the committee.
9:19:23 AM
STUART KRUEGER, Staff, Representative Shelley Hughes, Alaska
State Legislature, presented a sectional analysis to HCR 4 on
behalf of Representative Hughes, prime sponsor. He said the
first "BE IT RESOLVED", beginning on page 2, line 26, would
authorize the legislature "to appoint and summon delegates for
the amendment convention." He said the "FURTHER RESOLVED",
beginning on page 2, line 29, would give the legislature
authority "to decide the qualifications and total number of
delegates to send to the Convention," and the "FURTHER
RESOLVED", beginning on page 3, line 1, would give the
legislature "the ability to add or remove delegates."
MR. KRUEGER stated that the "FUTHER RESOLVED", beginning on page
3, line 6, would provide "parameters and instructions for
state's delegates at the Convention." Further, he noted that it
would prohibit delegates from voting for "any other amendments,
outside of the countermand amendment, at the Convention." He
said the "FURTHER RESOLVED", beginning on page 3, line 13, would
reserve the countermand amendment as "the only amendment for
consideration for ratification by the legislatures." He relayed
that the "FURTHER RESOLVED", beginning on page 3, line 15, would
- "upon a call for convention by 34 states" - call for
"establishing of the Delegate Credential Committee within the
Alaska Legislature, with duties listed in Section A." Further,
the Speaker of the House would appoint three members from the
House, one being a minority caucus member, and the President of
the Senate would appoint three members of the Senate, one being
a minority caucus member.
MR. KRUEGER said the "FURTHER RESOLVED", beginning on page 3,
line 24, would provide for a "replacement procedure for members
of the Delegate Credential Committee." The "FURTHER RESOLVED",
beginning on page 3, line 26, would allow for "selection of co-
chairs of the Delegate Credential Committee," which would
include one co-chair from the House, one from the Senate, and
staff. The "FURTHER RESOLVED", beginning on page 3, line 30,
would establish when the Delegate Credential Committee could
meet, and the "FURTHER RESOLVED", beginning on page 4, line 1,
would acknowledge that the Delegate Credential Committee would
"continue until the first day of the Thirtieth Alaska State
Legislature."
9:22:03 AM
MR. KRUEGER stated that the "FURTHER RESOLVED", beginning on
page 4, line 3, would request that the Delegate Credential
Committee be considered for reestablishment during the Thirtieth
Alaska Legislature. He pointed out that under Version E,
language had been added such that future legislatures would not
be bound by the concurrent resolution.
MR. KRUEGER said the "FURTHER RESOLVED" language, beginning on
page 4, line [7], provided for a "removal and replacement
procedure for members of the Delegate Credential Committee";
they would be "removed or replaced by the presiding officer that
appointed them." He directed attention to language within the
next "FURTHER RESOLVED", beginning on page 4, line [18], which
provided the duties of the Delegate Credential Committee to:
decide matters by majority vote; function as the official
facilitator for the legislature; appoint delegates and provide a
committee report on selected delegates; appoint a chair and
assistant chair; properly vet and confirm delegates; issue
convention passes to delegates; notify the legislature of the
financial needs at the Convention; administer an oath to the
delegates, alternates, chair, and assistant chair; monitor
activities of Alaska's delegation; submit quarterly reports to
the legislature on events, progress, and recommendations for the
Convention; and recommend removal of a delegate or alternate for
approval by the legislature.
MR. KRUEGER directed attention to language within the final
"FURTHER RESOLVED", beginning on page 6, line [12], which would
provide for the duties of the chair of Alaska's state delegation
and the president of the Convention. The chair would be
responsible for: communicating with other state delegations to
open convention for business; identifying other legislatures
that have approved a delegate resolution; building consensus
with at least 26 state delegations to require that each state
delegation at the Convention has only one vote; requiring a
simple majority vote at all roll calls; nominating convention
officials; requiring a quorum of 26 states to conduct business;
building a consensus of at least 26 states to support sending
the countermand amendment for ratification; working to conclude
the Convention in 21 days or no longer than 180 days; and
nominating a candidate for president of the Convention from
Alaska's delegation or working to elect a president from a
delegate resolution state.
MR. KRUEGER further directed attention to language on page [8],
line [1], which listed the type of support that would be
established for the following duties of the president: securing
a vote for this delegate resolution to be the rules of order at
the Convention; focusing on the purpose of sending the
countermand amendment for ratification by the states; requesting
security measures as needed; overseeing installment of officers
at the Convention; establishing convention agenda; providing
equal time for floor discussion for all states; prohibiting
introduction of any subject other than the countermand
amendment; calling for a vote for sending a countermand
amendment to the states; reporting to 50 state legislatures and
the media on convention progress; providing formal requests,
when needed, to states for money that will be needed to carry on
business; opposing any effort to delay or modify the countermand
amendment vote; and opposing any effort by states to offer
amendments other than the countermand amendment.
9:26:56 AM
MR. KRUEGER said language beginning on page 10, line [4], would
address the duties and responsibilities of convention delegates,
which would include: complying with directives in this
resolution; following instructions of the chair and assistant
chair of Alaska's delegation; being present to vote at all roll
calls; attending all assigned sessions at the Convention;
reporting to the delegation chair the number of states in favor
of the countermand amendment; and recommending strategies to
help join 26 states in favor of the countermand amendment. The
language on page 11, line [9], would provide the text for the
countermand amendment to the United States Constitution.
VICE CHAIR KELLER noted that [HCR 4] would be heard also by the
House Judiciary Standing Committee and the House Finance
Committee.
9:28:56 AM
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG observed the committee had received
letters from several different legislators, including one from a
Senator in Louisiana and a Representative in New Mexico, in
support of the legislation. He asked what the genesis of the
proposed legislation was and whether it was supported by a
particular group or organization.
MR. KRUEGER indicated that [HCR 4 and HJR 14] were brought to
the bill sponsor by a constituent, who was the president of the
Alaska section of a national, grass-roots organization called
Citizen Initiatives. The group had been traveling across the
country to promote similar legislation in other states. He
stated it was important to remember that the goal of the
proposed legislation was to limit [the Convention] to a single
issue. He said there are other states in the process of hearing
similar legislation. He said the executive director of Citizen
Initiatives, Charles Kacprowicz, had previously testified via
teleconference, and he was currently traveling from state to
state in a motor home. He said the concern of those involved in
this grassroots effort was that the sovereignty of states had
been "chipped away over time" and needed to be restored.
VICE CHAIR KELLER said Mr. Coons was the director of the Alaska
section of Citizen Initiatives and was available on line to
testify.
9:32:15 AM
REPRESENTATIVE SHELLEY HUGHES, Alaska State Legislature, as
sponsor, addressed questions that had been asked. She explained
that the aforementioned change made through Version E, regarding
not binding future legislatures, was made in response to a
concern raised by Representative Gruenberg at a previous
meeting. She confirmed the comment of her staff that the
legislation was backed by a grassroots effort, with neither big
money nor big names associated with it. She said that was a
unique factor. She said she had spoken with Representative
Kreiss-Tomkins about the threshold of 30 states, and she related
she had read an article from Gallop, which said there were more
"blue" states than "red." She acknowledged that that could
change, but indicated that the 30-state threshold was high,
considering there was only an 18-month window. Finally, she
said there had also been concern expressed about the possible
unraveling of the U.S. Constitution; however, she said this
effort was very specific to protect that from happening.
9:34:30 AM
REPRESENTATIVE HUGHES, in response to Representative Gruenberg,
reviewed that if the U.S. Constitution were amended with a
countermand amendment, there would be an 18-month window for 30
states to agree on "a specific item that's not in their best
interest."
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG said one issue had been over the amount
of time the states would have for ratification. He offered
further details.
REPRESENTATIVE HUGHES, in response, clarified that the window
did not apply to ratification, but to "enacting the mechanism."
She said the day before, State Senator Dan Sullivan had
addressed the House floor regarding federal issues, and the
minority leader brought up two issues she said she thought could
be addressed through a convention: the Transportation Security
Administration (TSA) and the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge
(ANWR).
9:38:27 AM
STUART THOMPSON testified in support of HJR 14 and HCR 4. He
posited the only legitimate objection to calling for a
countermand convention was that "its essence" already existed
under the Ninth and Tenth Amendments to the Constitution of the
United States; however, he stated that those constitutional
powers were "castrated by mismanagement of the slavery issue and
the desperation of the Civil War." Further, he said the powers
were "buried from view by anti-constitutional exaggeration of
federal powers through unlimited interpretation" of the General
Welfare and Do and Proper Clauses under Article II. He stated
that holding a convention and passing a countermand amendment
would restore the check and balance powers of the states over
that of the federal government.
MR. THOMPSON opined that the most serious problem in the U.S.
today was the "lack of political will by the American people to
benefit from our full, poetical heritage in seeking life,
liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." He stated that most, if
not all, of the country's present woes could be reduced or
eliminated by applying that will, including the management of
terrorism "without suffering bankruptcy from continuous war."
He said, "This circumstance is directly traceable to encouraging
citizen apathy by perverting civics education and increasingly
using the methods of other forms of government to deal with
things." Mr. Thompson said HB 30 and SCR 1 were "attempting to
address this"; however, he urged immediate attention to "the
senseless source of political apathy enforcement in this
country." He warned that the U.S. was becoming "a has-been
nation plunging into oblivion," and he indicated this was caused
by federal overreach and bullying "arising from anti-
constitutional centralization of power enabled by neglect of
duty by the states." He said this issue was what the aim of the
constitutional convention would be.
MR. THOMPSON indicated that those against the proposed
legislation would argue that "government of, for, and by the
people" did not work in handling economic depression and
protecting people from threats such as terrorism. He opined
that Americans had been increasingly "buying this" for most of a
century and had increasingly been suffering from "the very ills
the mutating U.S. Government has promised to protect us from."
He urged people to "be real human beings instead of animals
begging for protection."
9:42:08 AM
MR. THOMPSON concluded his testimony, as follows:
As free human beings, we must face that we have to be
eternally on guard against the temptation of giving
government unsupervised trust. Our founders were very
alive to this and constructed our form of government
accordingly. We must defend their creation. I'm
sorry to say no government in history ever really
deserved even the trust that was given. Government
always has been an imperfect invention of humanity.
Cooperation between those in authority and those
governed is the only hope we have, no matter how hard
it is to do so.
9:43:11 AM
MIKE COONS, National Director, Citizens Initiative, stated that
his testimony was in response to testimony given [during the
House State Affairs Standing Committee's 3/19/15 hearing on HJR
14 and HCR 4] by assistant attorney general Michael Schechter.
VICE CHAIR KELLER noted that Mr. Schechter was available via
teleconference for response.
MR. COONS explained that Mr. Schechter had made comments that
needed to be corrected. First, he said Mr. Schechter's repeated
use of the term "constitutional convention" when referencing the
states' use of Article V was incorrect. Mr. Coons emphasized
that that use pertained to an "amendment convention." He said
the continued use of the term constitutional convention in this
matter was one of the reasons that the John Birch [Society] and
the [Texas] Eagle Forum had been so vocal and effective over the
last 30 years. He said the only constitutional convention was
in 1787, when Article V was put into the Constitution "for
purposes of amending the Constitution either by Congress or the
states."
MR. COONS said the second mistake Mr. Schechter made was in
having stated that Congress had made use of Article V, 27 times.
Mr. Coons said the actual number was closer to 100. He
explained the significance of this was that the states rejected
all but 27 proposed amendments, which was why [Citizens
Initiative] put such an emphasis on "state legislature
sovereignty in this process." Mr. Coons offered his
understanding that Mr. Schechter's third mistake was in regard
to limitation of the number of topics at a convention. He said,
"He talked about concerns if states can limit to a single
amendment. Article V is about the right of states to propose
amendments; that means one or more."
MR. COONS said Mr. Schechter had said this issue had never been
acted upon by the courts or Congress and that the Department of
Law did not know how the question of a convention would be
received. Mr. Coons emphasized that the courts had nothing to
do with the convening or running of the Convention. He said
Congress had only three duties: to keep count of the
applications per subject matter; to convene a convention upon
the 34 states making the same application; and to receive and
send the proposed amendment for ratification to the 50 states.
He added, "The rest of it is state sovereignty and the states'
rights under Article V."
MR. COONS indicated that Mr. Schechter had put forth as an
"equally valid theory" that once called, a convention created
its own rules and could consider whatever amendments it may
choose. He stated, "This is why the delegate resolution, HCR 4,
is so important. When 26 or more states - a majority - pass
this, along with the embedded countermand amendment language,
there is no option for the several states at the Convention to
create its own rules or to bring up other amendments."
9:47:00 AM
MR. COONS opined that of the two resolutions before the
committee, the most important was the one that would ensure the
safety and efficiency of the Convention by requiring 26 or more
states adopting the rules for the Convention prior to it being
convened.
9:49:15 AM
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG asked Mr. Coons if he was familiar with
the letter from Katherine Marshall [included in the committee
packet]. He confirmed that it was an opposition letter.
MR. COONS stated that he had read all the opposition letters.
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG offered his understanding that the
quotes included in the letter were of a fragment of statements
made by a solicitor general and a U.S. Supreme Court justice,
and he said he would like to see the rest of the quotes in order
to put them into context. He explained that he thought the
quotes pertained to things other than the proposed countermand
amendment, but rather to the general philosophies of those who
spoke them.
REPRESENTATIVE HUGHES agreed to supply the contextual text from
which the quotes were extracted.
9:52:25 AM
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG asked whether the sponsor had any more
current opinions about the proposed legislation derived from
legal scholars, for example, as opposed to lay people or
politicians. He said he would like to focus on this in the next
committee of referral. He said he would like to see the best
legal thinking - pro and con - on the subject.
REPRESENTATIVE HUGHES said her staff could do research; however,
she reminded Representative Gruenberg that this effort had not
begun until about last year, so there may not be much available
specific to this legislation.
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG asked if any states had passed similar
measures.
REPRESENTATIVE HUGHES offered her understanding that currently
17 states had sponsors, and 9 of those states introduced the
legislation.
9:54:35 AM
MR. KRUEGER, in response to Representative Gruenberg, said North
Dakota had passed its legislation through the House, and he
offered his understanding that it was currently being heard in
its Senate. In response to a question, he said he was not aware
of any specific countermand amendment law reviews. He deferred
to Mr. Coons. He said he thought the majority of the opposition
letters referred to prior efforts regarding a convention of
states, a balanced budget, and an attempt to overturn the
Citizens United decision. He explained, "They blanket
legislatures whenever there are resolutions or bills regarding a
constitutional or amendment convention being discussed, so a
number of those are related to other efforts and just directed
toward our legislature in response to these resolutions."
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG added further details to his
aforementioned request for information.
9:56:40 AM
VICE CHAIR KELLER noted that within the committee packet was a
compendium legislative guide on the Constitution, written by
Robert G. Natelson, whom he said he had met. He ventured that
Mr. Natelson would agree with him that this issue was
nonpartisan.
9:58:34 AM
REPRESENTATIVE STUTES moved to report CSHCR 4, Version 29-
LS0250\E, Gardner, 3/20/15, out of committee with individual
recommendations and the accompanying fiscal notes. There being
no objection, CSHCR 4(STA) was reported out of the House State
Affairs Standing Committee.
9:59:14 AM
REPRESENTATIVE STUTES moved to report CSHJR 14, Version 29-
LS0249\E, Gardner, 2/19/15, out of committee with individual
recommendations and the accompanying fiscal notes. There being
no objection, CSHJR 14(STA) was reported out of the House State
Affairs Standing Committee.
VICE CHAIR KELLER returned the gavel to Chair Lynn.
10:01:20 AM
ADJOURNMENT
There being no further business before the committee, the House
State Affairs Standing Committee meeting was adjourned at 10:01
a.m.