ALASKA STATE LEGISLATURE                                                                                  
             HOUSE STATE AFFAIRS STANDING COMMITTEE                                                                           
                         April 24, 2001                                                                                         
                           8:06 a.m.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MEMBERS PRESENT                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Representative John Coghill, Chair                                                                                              
Representative Jeannette James                                                                                                  
Representative Hugh Fate                                                                                                        
Representative Gary Stevens                                                                                                     
Representative Peggy Wilson                                                                                                     
Representative Harry Crawford                                                                                                   
Representative Joe Hayes                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MEMBERS ABSENT                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
All members present                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
COMMITTEE CALENDAR                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
HOUSE BILL NO. 53                                                                                                               
"An Act establishing the Alaska Seismic Hazards Safety                                                                          
Commission."                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
     - MOVED CSHB 53(STA) OUT OF COMMITTEE                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
HOUSE JOINT RESOLUTION NO. 23                                                                                                   
Advocating the retention of the electoral college system in its                                                                 
present form.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
     - MOVED CSHJR 23(STA) OUT OF COMMITTEE                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
HOUSE BILL NO. 87                                                                                                               
"An Act establishing the Alaska Veterans Advisory Council; and                                                                  
providing for an effective date."                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
     - MOVED CSHB 87(MLV) OUT OF COMMITTEE                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
HOUSE BILL NO. 213                                                                                                              
"An Act relating to initiative and referendum petitions; and                                                                    
providing for an effective date."                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
     - BILL HEARING POSTPONED                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
HOUSE JOINT RESOLUTION NO. 25                                                                                                   
Proposing an amendment to the Constitution of the State of                                                                      
Alaska relating to initiative and referendum petitions.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
     - BILL HEARING POSTPONED                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
PREVIOUS ACTION                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
BILL: HB 53                                                                                                                   
SHORT TITLE:SEISMIC HAZARDS SAFETY COMMISSION                                                                                   
SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S)DAVIES                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
Jrn-Date   Jrn-Page                     Action                                                                                  
01/10/01     0054       (H)        READ THE FIRST TIME -                                                                        
                                   REFERRALS                                                                                    
01/10/01     0054       (H)        MLV, STA, FIN                                                                                
03/13/01                (H)        MLV AT 3:30 PM CAPITOL 120                                                                   
03/13/01                (H)        -- Meeting Canceled --                                                                       
03/27/01                (H)        MLV AT 5:00 PM CAPITOL 120                                                                   
03/27/01                (H)        Moved CSHB 53(MLV) Out of                                                                    
                                   Committee                                                                                    
                                   MINUTE(MLV)                                                                                  
03/28/01     0761       (H)        COSPONSOR(S): GREEN                                                                          
03/30/01     0786       (H)        MLV RPT CS(MLV) 6DP                                                                          
03/30/01     0786       (H)        DP: MURKOWSKI, HAYES, GREEN,                                                                 
                                   KOTT,                                                                                        
03/30/01     0786       (H)        CISSNA, CHENAULT                                                                             
03/30/01     0786       (H)        FN1: (GOV)                                                                                   
03/30/01     0786       (H)        FN2: (DNR)                                                                                   
04/24/01                (H)        STA AT 8:00 AM CAPITOL 102                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
BILL: HJR 23                                                                                                                  
SHORT TITLE:MAINTAIN ELECTORAL COLLEGE SYSTEM                                                                                   
SPONSOR(S): STATE AFFAIRS                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
Jrn-Date   Jrn-Page                     Action                                                                                  
03/20/01     0662       (H)        READ THE FIRST TIME -                                                                        
                                   REFERRALS                                                                                    
03/20/01     0662       (H)        STA                                                                                          
04/12/01                (H)        STA AT 8:00 AM CAPITOL 102                                                                   
04/12/01                (H)        <Bill Postponed to 4/17>                                                                     
04/17/01                (H)        STA AT 8:00 AM CAPITOL 102                                                                   
04/17/01                (H)        Scheduled But Not Heard                                                                      
04/24/01                (H)        STA AT 8:00 AM CAPITOL 102                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
BILL: HB 87                                                                                                                   
SHORT TITLE:ALASKA VETERANS ADVISORY COUNCIL                                                                                    
SPONSOR(S): RLS BY REQUEST OF THE GOVERNOR                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Jrn-Date   Jrn-Page                     Action                                                                                  
01/24/01     0154       (H)        READ THE FIRST TIME -                                                                        
                                   REFERRALS                                                                                    
01/24/01     0154       (H)        MLV, STA, FIN                                                                                
01/24/01     0154       (H)        FN1: (MVA)                                                                                   
01/24/01     0155       (H)        GOVERNOR'S TRANSMITTAL LETTER                                                                
02/20/01                (H)        MLV AT 3:30 PM CAPITOL 120                                                                   
02/20/01                (H)        <Bill Canceled>                                                                              
02/27/01                (H)        MLV AT 3:30 PM CAPITOL 120                                                                   
02/27/01                (H)        Moved CSHB 87(MLV) Out of                                                                    
                                   Committee                                                                                    
                                   MINUTE(MLV)                                                                                  
03/22/01     0684       (H)        MLV RPT CS(MLV) 6DP                                                                          
03/22/01     0685       (H)        DP: KOTT, MASEK, GREEN,                                                                      
                                   HAYES,                                                                                       
03/22/01     0685       (H)        CISSNA, CHENAULT                                                                             
03/22/01     0685       (H)        FN1: (MVA)                                                                                   
04/21/01                (H)        STA AT 9:00 AM CAPITOL 102                                                                   
04/21/01                (H)        Scheduled But Not Heard --                                                                   
                                   Time Change --                                                                               
04/24/01                (H)        STA AT 8:00 AM CAPITOL 102                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
WITNESS REGISTER                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE JOHN DAVIES                                                                                                      
Alaska State Legislature                                                                                                        
Capitol Building, Room 415                                                                                                      
Juneau, Alaska  99801                                                                                                           
POSITION STATEMENT:  Sponsor of HB 53.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
SHELDON E. WINTERS, Attorney at Law                                                                                             
Lessmeier & Winters                                                                                                             
Lobbyist for State Farm Insurance Company                                                                                       
431 North Franklin Street, Suite 400                                                                                            
Juneau, Alaska  99801                                                                                                           
POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified in support of HB 53 and responded                                                                
to questions.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MILT WILTSE, Director                                                                                                           
Central Office                                                                                                                  
Division of Geological & Geophysical Surveys (DGGS)                                                                             
Department of Natural Resources (DNR)                                                                                           
794 University Ave, Suite 200                                                                                                   
Fairbanks, Alaska  99707-3645                                                                                                   
POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified in support of HB 53 and responded                                                                
to questions.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
CAROL CARROLL, Director                                                                                                         
Administrative Services Division                                                                                                
Department of Military & Veterans Affairs (DMVA)                                                                                
400 Willoughby Avenue, Suite 500                                                                                                
Juneau, Alaska  99811                                                                                                           
POSITION  STATEMENT:     Presented  HB   87  on  behalf   of  the                                                               
administration.                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
JOHN GAGUINE, Assistant Attorney General                                                                                        
Civil Division (Juneau)                                                                                                         
Department of Law (DOL)                                                                                                         
PO Box 110300                                                                                                                   
Juneau, Alaska  99811-0300                                                                                                      
POSITION  STATEMENT:   During  discussion of  HB  87, voiced  the                                                               
DOL's concerns and responded to questions.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MG PHILLIP E. OATES, Adjutant General/Commissioner                                                                              
Department of Military and Veterans Affairs (DMVA)                                                                              
PO Box 5800                                                                                                                     
Fort Richardson, Alaska  99505 0800                                                                                             
POSITION STATEMENT:   During  discussion of  HB 87,  responded to                                                               
questions.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
TERRI LAUTERBACH, Attorney                                                                                                      
Legislative Legal Counsel                                                                                                       
Legislative Legal and Research Services                                                                                         
Legislative Affairs Agency                                                                                                      
Terry Miller Building, Room 329                                                                                                 
Juneau, Alaska  99801-1182                                                                                                      
POSITION STATEMENT:   During  discussion of  HB 87,  responded to                                                               
questions as the drafter.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
ACTION NARRATIVE                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
TAPE 01-47, SIDE A                                                                                                              
Number 0001                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  JOHN  COGHILL  called the  House  State  Affairs  Standing                                                               
Committee  meeting  to  order  at   8:06  a.m.    Representatives                                                               
Coghill, Fate, Stevens,  Crawford, and Hayes were  present at the                                                               
call to order.   Representatives James and Wilson  arrived as the                                                               
meeting was in progress.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
HB 53 - SEISMIC HAZARDS SAFETY COMMISSION                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Number 0035                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR COGHILL  announced that the  first order of  business would                                                               
be HOUSE  BILL NO.  53, "An Act  establishing the  Alaska Seismic                                                               
Hazards  Safety  Commission."   [Before  the  committee was  CSHB                                                               
53(MLV).]                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
Number 0070                                                                                                                     
REPRESENTATIVE  JOHN DAVIES,  Alaska State  Legislature, sponsor,                                                               
explained that HB  53 would establish the  Alaska Seismic Hazards                                                               
Safety Commission (ASHSC), which would  work out of the Office of                                                               
the Governor.  The ASHSC would  consist of a number of people who                                                               
are expert in  earthquake issues and who  would provide oversight                                                               
for  the   entire  state  of   Alaska  regarding   mitigation  of                                                               
earthquake  hazards.    With regard  to  the  difference  between                                                               
[earthquake] mitigation  and [earthquake] response,  he explained                                                               
that  mitigation involves  ensuring  that the  loss  of life  and                                                               
property are  minimized to begin with,  whereas response involves                                                               
rescue and  cleanup after an  earthquake occurs.   Fundamentally,                                                               
the goal of the ASHSC would be to focus on prevention.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE DAVIES noted  that in the United  States and other                                                               
"more advanced"  countries, building  codes/standards do  much to                                                               
mitigate  the  loss of  life  and  property.    When there  is  a                                                               
"magnitude 5"  earthquake in  a country that  does not  have such                                                               
codes -  where un-reinforced  masonry is the  standard -  tens of                                                               
thousands of people lose their  lives.  By comparison, when there                                                               
is a  magnitude 5 earthquake  in the United States,  it generally                                                               
results in  very little  damage and  simply becomes  another news                                                               
item.    Building  codes  are the  fundamental  reason  for  this                                                               
difference.  However,  he added, "our" knowledge  is not perfect;                                                               
there is still  room for significant advances  in building codes.                                                               
In   Alaska,  building   codes   are   adopted  municipality   by                                                               
municipality; it's up to the  individual municipalities to decide                                                               
whether they want  to adopt various parts of the  seismic code or                                                               
not.  Much of Alaska, even  the Fairbanks North Star Borough, for                                                               
example, has  not adopted  such a code.   The  building standards                                                               
are largely  enforced indirectly through the  insurance industry:                                                               
when a  person applies for  a mortgage, he/she is  often required                                                               
to  have an  inspector look  at the  house to  see whether  it is                                                               
built according to codes.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE DAVIES  said that  since there  are many  areas in                                                               
Alaska that  don't have building  codes, he believes  that having                                                               
the  ASHSC in  place to  look at  the state's  building practices                                                               
will  continue  to  advance  the   safety  [levels]  of  Alaska's                                                               
buildings and hence, Alaska's citizens.   He noted that even in a                                                               
fairly  dramatic earthquake,  about  80 percent  of  the loss  is                                                               
actually just structural  loss inside the buildings.   Thus, from                                                               
a financial point  of view, designing buildings  so that lighting                                                               
and plumbing  fixtures are attached  correctly can become  a huge                                                               
issue in  terms of the  building being functional right  after an                                                               
earthquake.    Taking care  of  things  like computer  systems  -                                                               
making sure  that computer  systems are backed  up offsite  - are                                                               
very important  in terms of a  business plan, in terms  of people                                                               
being able to function the next day after a large earthquake.                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Number 0479                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  DAVIES  explained  that the  fundamental  problem                                                               
that  HB 53  is  attempting  to address  is  that large  damaging                                                               
earthquakes  occur  very  infrequently,  hence,  many  people  go                                                               
through  their entire  lives without  experiencing one,  which is                                                               
good, but this  creates a tendency to ignore the  hazards.  "What                                                               
we're  trying to  do here  is have  a group  that, over  the long                                                               
haul, puts a little bit of  time and energy into addressing these                                                               
issues  so that  when the  event inevitably  does occur,  ... the                                                               
losses are minimized."   He opined that spending a  little bit of                                                               
money now  [on HB 53], would  save a huge amount  of money later.                                                               
He added  the ironic  note that the  "Good Friday  earthquake" in                                                               
1964 in  Alaska acted as  a wakeup call  for most of  the western                                                               
United  States;  in the  wake  of  that earthquake,  those  other                                                               
states  established seismic  hazard commissions,  whereas Alaska,                                                               
which experienced  that earthquake, didn't.   He offered  that he                                                               
is merely trying to catch up via HB 53.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR   COGHILL   asked   whether   any   state   [agencies]   or                                                               
municipalities  have come  forward with  any advice,  counsel, or                                                               
information.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE DAVIES noted that there  are currently a number of                                                               
resources  in the  state:   the  Division  of Emergency  Services                                                               
(DES) under Department  of Military & Veterans  Affairs (DMVA) is                                                               
probably the  most statewide  in its focus,  he opined,  and does                                                               
some work with various communities  along the lines of mitigation                                                               
via  tsunami warnings,  and actually  receives  small amounts  of                                                               
federal money for  this purpose.  He said he  considers this sort                                                               
of activity to  be "mitigation work" because it  allows people to                                                               
plan  ahead and  possibly avoid  loss, which  in turn  avoids the                                                               
necessity for  recovery efforts.   He noted that there  are other                                                               
resources  at  the  federal  level as  well;  the  United  States                                                               
Geological  Survey  (USGS)  has  some folks  in  Alaska  who  are                                                               
helping to run the seismic  networks and volcano warning systems,                                                               
and  who  do  provide  some advice  and  counseling  when  issues                                                               
relating to hazards  mitigation come along, although  that is not                                                               
their primary focus.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
Number 0687                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  DAVIES   also  noted   that  there  is   a  state                                                               
seismologist at the Geophysical  Institute, University of Alaska,                                                               
who  provides  the  primary   impetus  for  recording  earthquake                                                               
information,  which  is  the  basic  data  upon  which  decisions                                                               
regarding earthquake  mitigation and  hazard reduction  are made.                                                               
At the municipal  level, he added, Anchorage  has a geo-technical                                                               
advisory commission  that also provides  comments on  these types                                                               
of issues.   He noted that the "state  survey," primarily through                                                               
Rod Combellick,  has done a great  deal of work in  the Anchorage                                                               
area  aimed  at  understanding  the frequency  with  which  "Good                                                               
Friday type  earthquakes" occur  there.  So  there are  already a                                                               
number  of resources  in  the  state, he  said,  but the  [ASHSC]                                                               
established  via  HB  53  would  be  "the  umbrella"  that  would                                                               
coordinate those resources  and bring a little more  focus to the                                                               
issue of mitigation.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR COGHILL mentioned that the  Uniform Building Code is always                                                               
in  the  "upgrade"  mode,  and   he  opined  that  building  with                                                               
earthquakes in mind has certainly  been a part of that [process].                                                               
He  asked  whether there  is  any  way  of bringing  the  Uniform                                                               
Building Code to bear, other than through municipalities.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  DAVIES said,  "We  do it  through state  agencies                                                               
when  they  contract  for buildings  or  [are]  having  buildings                                                               
built; we usually require as part  of that, that the buildings be                                                               
built according  to that code."   In  response to a  question, he                                                               
said  he anticipates  that the  [ASHSC]  would look  at what  the                                                               
state is  doing in terms  of its  own "building stock"  to ensure                                                               
that the state adopts the newest provisions in the code.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  STEVENS, after  noting  that he  was not  present                                                               
when Kodiak  had a big  earthquake, said that Kodiak  already has                                                               
an  extensive planning  process:    emergency preparedness  teams                                                               
coordinate  with fire  departments and  emergency shelters.   The                                                               
equipment  is  all there,  including  beds  provided by  the  Red                                                               
Cross, for the  time period after an emergency occurs.   He added                                                               
that Kodiak  has adopted the Uniform  Building Code.  He  said he                                                               
has never heard anyone clamoring  for "more supervision on this."                                                               
He opined  that although  Representative Davies  anticipates that                                                               
the  ASHSC  would  simply   coordinate  agencies  and  activities                                                               
statewide,  he is  not  sure  that [lack  of  coordination] is  a                                                               
problem at this point.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
Number 0969                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE DAVIES  responded:  "The  purpose of this  bill is                                                               
to do stuff  that people aren't clamoring for."   The problem, he                                                               
offered, is that people, during  the course of their daily lives,                                                               
really don't deal  with issues of building codes.   He noted that                                                               
in his  area, for  example, very  few people  who are  building a                                                               
house actually  tie the  two stories together  with bolts  in the                                                               
way that they should because it  is not part of the building code                                                               
or practice;  it's not  that they're  negligent, they  just don't                                                               
know that this  is the single most cost effective  thing they can                                                               
do to mitigate  problems.  He explained that there  are a variety                                                               
of things like  that that are hidden from  the ordinary citizen's                                                               
daily  life because  earthquakes  are  not experienced  everyday.                                                               
"We  have  raincoats and  we  tend  to  put  them on  because  we                                                               
experience rain on a fairly  frequent basis; we don't worry about                                                               
earthquake  hazards ...  when  ... designing  a  house, ...  most                                                               
people don't have earthquake insurance, even."                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  DAVIES noted  that earthquake  insurance is  very                                                               
expensive relative  to the  hazards in most  areas of  the state.                                                               
He  opined that  by having  the  right information,  the cost  of                                                               
earthquake  insurance in  Alaska could  be reduced  significantly                                                               
while   still  being   actuarially  sound   from  the   insurance                                                               
industry's point of view.  "It's  those things that we don't look                                                               
at.   A lot  of the things  that [Representative  Stevens] talked                                                               
about are  in that preparing-for-response [category],  as opposed                                                               
to mitigation;  mitigation ... primarily works  through upgrading                                                               
the building  code."  Unless  a person is a  building contractor,                                                               
he/she really doesn't pay much attention  to the code.  He opined                                                               
that it is really  important as a state to have  a small group of                                                               
people  who  do  pay  attention to  it.    Representative  Davies                                                               
mentioned that when he was  the state's seismologist, there was a                                                               
proposed  change to  the  seismic hazard  map  suggested by  some                                                               
people out  of southern California  that was egregious  and would                                                               
have  cost the  state over  $10 million  per year  in unnecessary                                                               
building  expense   had  he  not   prevented  that   change  from                                                               
occurring.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE DAVIES  stated that he  is not trying to  create a                                                               
big bureaucracy  or a regulatory  agency with  HB 53; he  is just                                                               
trying to "create  a group of people" that look  out for the best                                                               
interest of the citizens of  Alaska by providing good information                                                               
regarding  building codes,  so that  when people  go about  their                                                               
daily business, it is done in a more cost-effective way.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
Number 1191                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  JAMES asked  what kind  of information  the ASHSC                                                               
would  provide  to  the  public.   She  opined  that  a  lack  of                                                               
knowledge is a big part of  why people are resistant to complying                                                               
with  building codes.    She noted  that HB  53  is proposing  to                                                               
include people  who are very knowledgeable  about "these" issues.                                                               
She suggested  that there should  be opportunities for  the ASHSC                                                               
to have  "regular responses  to the people,"  not only  about how                                                               
they  can build  their  buildings  but also  about  how they  can                                                               
protect themselves  in the case of  an earthquake.  She  asked if                                                               
such would be  part of the ASHSC's duties or  if its only purpose                                                               
would be to look at building code issues.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE DAVIES  replied that  there is  inevitable overlap                                                               
between mitigation and  response activities, and while  it is his                                                               
intent that the  ASHSC focus on the mitigation part,  where it is                                                               
appropriate  it could  also  be a  forum  for providing  response                                                               
information.  He opined that the  nexus would be strongest in the                                                               
area of  preparing homeowners  for things  that they  should look                                                               
for and tend  to [before an earthquake] and things  that they can                                                               
do  [after an  earthquake].   There are  some very  simple things                                                               
that  people  can  do  when  looking  through  their  own  homes,                                                               
especially in Fairbanks where there are  a lot of cabins built on                                                               
pilings,  which enable  a homeowner  to get  under the  house and                                                               
look  at  everything  and  ensure  that  the  main  structure  is                                                               
attached to the  pilings.  He noted another thing  to look for is                                                               
that the furnace  is secured so that during  an earthquake, fires                                                               
don't  start  because   of  a  loose  furnace.     He  said  that                                                               
information  about these  and other  simple cost-effective  steps                                                               
could be disseminated by the  ASHSC via the Cooperative Extension                                                               
Service.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE DAVIES noted that a  lot of people in Alaska build                                                               
their own  houses, and therefore incorporating  information about                                                               
earthquake  standards into  the building  courses offered  by the                                                               
university would be  another way of getting  this information out                                                               
to the public.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  COGHILL  remarked  that  he  received  a  lot  of  helpful                                                               
information from the Cooperative  Extension Service when he built                                                               
his own house.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
Number 1449                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  JAMES noted  that  creating awareness  is a  good                                                               
idea.  She  also mentioned that even though it  was reported that                                                               
Fairbanks did not sustain any  damage during a recent earthquake,                                                               
some  damage did  occur  but  was not  noticed  until later;  for                                                               
example, her  well pipe broke  away from  her well pump  and both                                                               
had to be replaced.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE    FATE   said    that   although    he   applauds                                                               
Representative  Davies for  bringing forth  this issue,  he still                                                               
has  concerns  about the  fiscal  notes.    He pointed  out  that                                                               
although   there  is   an  extensive   program  with   a  complex                                                               
administration  outlined  in  HB   53,  the  fiscal  notes  don't                                                               
illustrate  this.   He said  he  really has  to question  whether                                                               
"you're  going  to get  away  with  one part-time  [position]  at                                                               
$13,400" in  fiscal year (FY)  2003.  He  said he expects  to see                                                               
[the  ASHSC]  coming back  to  the  legislature in  future  years                                                               
asking for more money.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE DAVIES  noted that if future  legislatures believe                                                               
that [the ASHSC]  has proved its merit and that  it would be cost                                                               
effective  to provide  more  money,  then "that  would  be up  to                                                               
them."   He  said his  intent is  that they  rely heavily  on the                                                               
existing  expertise  available  in   the  state,  and  that  that                                                               
aforementioned position  would be a quarter-time  position within                                                               
the  governor's office  -  an existing  staff  person who,  under                                                               
"other duties assigned,"  would have the job  of coordinating the                                                               
meetings of the ASHSC.  He added  that there is a small amount of                                                               
travel [expense]  anticipated:  he  expects that the  ASHSC would                                                               
meet  four times  a year,  twice via  teleconference to  keep the                                                               
costs down.  He explained that  most of the people involved would                                                               
be people like the person at  the state geological survey and the                                                               
person at the geophysical institute,  whose jobs, in part, are to                                                               
focus on  these kinds of issues,  and which is why  he feels that                                                               
[the ASHSC]  can get by with  a fairly small budget;  "because we                                                               
have  a cadre  of experts,"  both in  the public  sector and  the                                                               
private sector,  who are  dedicated to  and concerned  with these                                                               
issues.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Number 1689                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
SHELDON  E.  WINTERS,  Attorney  at  Law,  Lessmeier  &  Winters,                                                               
Lobbyist for  State Farm Insurance  Company ("State  Farm"), said                                                               
that State  Farm strongly  supports HB  53, particularly  since a                                                               
representative of the  insurance industry would be  on the ASHSC.                                                               
He noted that the insurance  industry participates "hand in hand"                                                               
with similar  commissions in other  states.  He said  he believes                                                               
that this  type of  commission is very  beneficial to  the public                                                               
for the  reasons that Representative  Davies has  already stated.                                                               
In  response to  questions,  he said  that  within the  industry,                                                               
there   are   already   catastrophe   committees   made   up   of                                                               
representatives from  different insurance companies, so  while he                                                               
has not thought  out the details of such an  appointment, he does                                                               
not  foresee   any  problems  with   the  governor   choosing  an                                                               
experienced representative from the insurance industry.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Number 1824                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MILT WILTSE,  Director, Central Office, Division  of Geological &                                                               
Geophysical  Surveys  (DGGS),  Department  of  Natural  Resources                                                               
(DNR),   testified  via   teleconference  and   noted  that   Rod                                                               
Combellick,  mentioned  earlier,  is  one of  the  DGGS's  senior                                                               
geologists.   Mr. Wiltse added  that Mr. Combellick  is extremely                                                               
knowledgeable;  has  professional  connections with  many  people                                                               
working in the seismic hazards  fields in Washington, Oregon, and                                                               
California;  and is  the lead  person  in the  DGGS dealing  with                                                               
seismic   issues.     Mr.  Wiltse   relayed   that  through   Mr.                                                               
Combellick's tutelage, he is now  more aware of the complexity of                                                               
dealing  with  disaster mitigation  and  recovery  response.   He                                                               
noted that the ASHSC could give  conscious focus to the myriad of                                                               
things  that could  be  done to  mitigate  earthquake damage,  in                                                               
addition to coordinating the state's efforts on this issue.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. WILTSE noted that there are  many people in Alaska working in                                                               
the [seismic hazards]  field who focus on specific  pieces of the                                                               
response  problem,  which is  one  of  the reasons  why  Alaska's                                                               
disaster response  team is so  effective:  there is  a consortium                                                               
of people who focus  on how to respond to a  disaster.  He added,                                                               
however, that  Alaska doesn't  have the  same sort  of consortium                                                               
tasked with  putting together a  comprehensive set  of mitigation                                                               
measures - a  strategic plan that could be followed  year to year                                                               
throughout the  state.   He opined that  putting a  commission of                                                               
this sort  in place  and tasking  them with  coming up  with that                                                               
strategic plan  and focusing and coordinating  the efforts across                                                               
the various agencies  would move the state a  great distance down                                                               
the  road toward  vastly  decreasing the  effects  of any  future                                                               
massive  seismic  event.   He  also  opined  that  [HB 53]  is  a                                                               
tremendous idea and will pay  tremendous dividends by formalizing                                                               
coordination   efforts,   getting   people   to   recognize   the                                                               
responsibility for  thinking broadly,  and bringing  together the                                                               
efforts  of  the  DMVA,  Geological  Survey,  utility  companies,                                                               
insurance  industry,  contractors,   architects,  engineers,  and                                                               
other people involved  in this issue.  He added  that he heartily                                                               
supports HB 53 both personally and as a state geologist.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR COGHILL noted that he  is simply concerned that [the ASHSC]                                                               
might  come in  and say,  "You've got  to do  all these  things,"                                                               
which would  cost the state  millions of  dollars.  He  asked Mr.                                                               
Wiltse how he envisions the ASHSC interacting with the DGGS.                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  WILTSE posited  that it  would  be an  "interchange type  of                                                               
setup";  the DGGS  would  bring the  ASHSC  the fundamental  data                                                               
needed  for  its deliberations,  such  as  strong motion  seismic                                                               
measurements  and  geological data.    This  type of  information                                                               
could then be forwarded to engineers  so that they can design and                                                               
analyze  the  design  of  buildings  and  other  structures  such                                                               
bridges, transmission  lines, pipelines,  et cetera, in  order to                                                               
include the  types of  safety factors  needed to  mitigate damage                                                               
from ground motions.   He noted that [HB 53]  sets the foundation                                                               
for trying  to assess risk.   In response to questions,  he noted                                                               
that mitigation takes a conscious  effort, which is currently not                                                               
made.   He added that  some people  might focus on  another "Good                                                               
Friday" type of  earthquake, but the real risk could  come from a                                                               
completely different type of more localized earthquake.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Number 2280                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE STEVENS  noted that  it seems  like "we've  come a                                                               
long way"  in terms of prediction  of earthquakes.  He  asked Mr.                                                               
Wiltse  if it  is the  DGGS that  works on  earthquake prediction                                                               
issues.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MR. WILTSE responded  that the DGGS works on those  issues to the                                                               
extent  that it  can, and  it also  coordinates those  activities                                                               
with the university  and to some extent with the  USGS.  He noted                                                               
that the  DGGS doesn't have as  good a tectonic model  for Alaska                                                               
as is  available for other states.   He detailed, as  an example,                                                               
some of the  similar geological features between  Los Angeles and                                                               
Anchorage, but pointed  out that there is not as  clear a picture                                                               
of Anchorage's features.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR COGHILL  mentioned that the concept  of HB 53 looks  like a                                                               
pretty good idea.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  STEVENS  surmised then  that  if  anyone is  ever                                                               
going  to begin  coordinating the  prediction of  earthquakes, it                                                               
would probably  be the ASHSC.   He asked if that  would indeed be                                                               
the case.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE DAVIES  said that he  envisions the ASHSC,  not so                                                               
much   doing    the   predicting   themselves,    but   remaining                                                               
knowledgeable about  the state of  the art and  encouraging those                                                               
activities  within Alaska  wherever  it might  be  fruitful.   He                                                               
added that another  role of the ASHSC is  to evaluate "charlatan"                                                               
predictions  because  local  governments don't  always  have  the                                                               
ability  to  do so.    Earthquake  prediction  is not  yet  fully                                                               
developed to  the point of  being able to pinpoint  exactly where                                                               
and when an earthquake will  occur; currently, predictions can be                                                               
made  only  with  regard  to the  probability  of  an  earthquake                                                               
happening in  any given zone.   And  yet, he noted,  just knowing                                                               
even  those  probabilities  can  be  very  helpful  in  terms  of                                                               
focusing mitigation efforts.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR   COGHILL  asked   whether   the  ASHSC   would  have   any                                                               
representation from the "private building area."                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  DAVIES   offered  that  such   representation  is                                                               
[authorized by language  on page 2, line  19, subsection (c)(7)],                                                               
which says:   "three members from  members of the public  who are                                                               
knowledgeable in  the fields  of geology,  seismology, hydrology,                                                               
geotechnical   engineering,  structural   engineering,  emergency                                                               
services, or  planning."   He relayed,  however, that  members of                                                               
the oil  and pipeline industries  have suggested to him  that the                                                               
word "expert" should replace "knowledgeable".                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Number 2542                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  JAMES  made  a   motion  to  adopt  Amendment  1,                                                               
deleting "knowledgeable"  and replacing it with  "expert" on page                                                               
2, line 19.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR COGHILL objected  for the purpose of discussion.   He noted                                                               
that it  is pretty  well lined  out in  paragraph (7)  that these                                                               
three public members  would be "professional" members.   He asked                                                               
whether "expert" would denote some sort of certification.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE DAVIES replied  that it is just a  question of the                                                               
level  of expertise  or knowledge;  he  did not  have a  specific                                                               
definition in  mind for the word  "expert".  He relayed  that the                                                               
concern of the  industries suggesting the change  is that members                                                               
should not simply  be people who are trained in  some other field                                                               
of science and  just happen to have a little  bit of knowledge in                                                               
the aforementioned fields; rather,  the members should be people,                                                               
like  structural  engineers,  for  example, who  are  focused  on                                                               
earthquake design,  not just structural engineers  who have taken                                                               
a course on earthquake design 25 years ago.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE JAMES asked  how it is determined  that someone is                                                               
an "expert".                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  DAVIES suggested  that  the  word "expert"  would                                                               
merely offer the governor some  guidance when choosing the public                                                               
members.    He added  that  the  distinction  is that,  "We  want                                                               
somebody that really  has some expertise," not  somebody who just                                                               
has some casual knowledge.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  FATE,  after noting  that  paragraph  (4) of  the                                                               
"Powers and duties"  section on page 3 says that  the ASHSC shall                                                               
"gather,   analyze,  and   disseminate  information   of  general                                                               
interest   on  seismic   hazard   mitigation",   asked  how   the                                                               
dissemination  aspect  of  these  duties  would  be  accomplished                                                               
unless  one of  the  public members  is an  expert  in the  media                                                               
field.                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  DAVIES explained  that  the  "Powers and  duties"                                                               
section  were drawn  fairly broadly  so as  not to  constrain the                                                               
ASHSC.   He added that  the primary dissemination  of information                                                               
would be  done through professional  channels as well  as through                                                               
existing  channels  in  the  university's  cooperative  extension                                                               
service and the DMVA's DES.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Number 2704                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE JAMES  withdrew Amendment  1, saying she  likes HB                                                               
53 the way it is.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Number 2712                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE STEVENS  then made  the motion to  adopt Amendment                                                               
1,  deleting "knowledgeable"  and replacing  it with  "expert" on                                                               
page 2, line 19.                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE FATE objected.                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  STEVENS said  it  makes perfectly  good sense  to                                                               
change  the  language  from "knowledgeable"  to  "expert";  after                                                               
noting that he  has read a couple of books  on Alaska geology, he                                                               
said that while  he is knowledgeable on the subject,  it would be                                                               
foolish to put  him on the ASHSC.   "What we need  are people who                                                               
truly understand  and have experience  working in the  field," he                                                               
stated.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE FATE withdrew his objection.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Number 2745                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  COGHILL  noted that  there  were  no other  objections  to                                                               
Amendment 1.  Therefore, Amendment 1 was adopted.                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Number 2753                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE JAMES  moved to report  CSHB 53(MLV),  as amended,                                                               
out  of   committee  with  individual  recommendations   and  the                                                               
accompanying  fiscal  notes.   There  being  no  objection,  CSHB                                                               
53(STA)  was  reported  from the  House  State  Affairs  Standing                                                               
Committee.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
HJR 23 - MAINTAIN ELECTORAL COLLEGE SYSTEM                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Number 2781                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR COGHILL announced that the  next order of business would be                                                               
HOUSE JOINT  RESOLUTION NO. 23,  Advocating the retention  of the                                                               
electoral college system in its present form.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Number 2813                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  COGHILL  noted that  he  brought  HJR  23 forward  in  its                                                               
present form  as a House  State Affairs Standing  Committee bill.                                                               
He suggested that there is one  area in HJR 23 that the committee                                                               
might  consider changing:   on  page  1, line  12, delete  "while                                                               
guaranteeing  that the  voices of  this  nation's minorities  are                                                               
heard" and  insert "while protecting  the voice of  this nation's                                                               
minority vote".  He opined that  the former language raises a lot                                                               
of questions.   He mentioned that he is bringing  forth HJR 23 at                                                               
the request of leadership.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE JAMES  said that  she is  in favor  of maintaining                                                               
the electoral  college, but noted that  she is not sure  that the                                                               
language on lines 11-12 is a good  statement to have at all.  She                                                               
opined that  minorities have a  louder voice in this  system than                                                               
in  any other  system.   She  added, however,  that  to her,  the                                                               
electoral  college  is  almost  a   state's  rights  issue.    "I                                                               
understand the  argument that we  ought to  have the will  of the                                                               
majority of  the people,  [but] quite  frankly I'm  not convinced                                                               
that when we have completed an  election, that we always have the                                                               
will of the majority of the  people, because many of those people                                                               
don't even vote."  She also  noted that since many people outside                                                               
of Alaska don't have a clear  understanding of some of the issues                                                               
specific to  Alaska, the  only way  to ensure  that Alaska  has a                                                               
voice  is  through  the  electoral   college.    Therefore,  when                                                               
speaking  about  minorities,  she surmised  that  the  discussion                                                               
really  pertains  to  the "minority  states"  that  have  smaller                                                               
populations.   She said  she is not  convinced that  the language                                                               
saying, "ensures  that the  will of the  majority is  carried out                                                               
while guaranteeing that the voices  of this nation's minority" is                                                               
a very good statement, period.   She suggested that this language                                                               
should be removed altogether.                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR COGHILL noted that he "stumbled over that very thought."                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  STEVENS, as  a college  teacher,  noted that  the                                                               
hardest  part  of  teaching  U.S. history  is  dealing  with  the                                                               
electoral  college.    He  opined   that  one  of  the  strongest                                                               
arguments  for  the electoral  college  system  is that  at  some                                                               
point, it  does reach a conclusion,  which is a real  advantage -                                                               
at  some  point   the  election  is  over   and  someone  becomes                                                               
president.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
TAPE 01-47, SIDE B                                                                                                              
Number 2956                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  FATE  said  that he  agrees  with  Representative                                                               
James that it would be better  to leave out [lines 11-12] on page                                                               
1,  and   that  he  would   like  to   see  the  point   made  by                                                               
Representative Stevens added to HJR 23.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Number 2930                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR COGHILL made motion to  adopt [Amendment 1], striking lines                                                               
11-12 on  page 1.   There being  no objection, [Amendment  1] was                                                               
adopted.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
Number 2903                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  STEVENS   made  a  motion  to   adopt  Conceptual                                                               
Amendment 2,  adding to page 2  [line 4], wording to  the effect:                                                               
"WHEREAS  the  electoral  college  brings  a  conclusion  to  the                                                               
electoral  process."   [Although the  chair did  not specifically                                                               
announce  that Conceptual  Amendment 2  was adopted,  the drafter                                                               
treated Conceptual  Amendment 2 as  having been adopted  and thus                                                               
incorporated it  into the House State  Affairs Standing Committee                                                               
Substitute.]                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  CRAWFORD said  that although  he believes  in the                                                               
electoral  system and  wants to  see  it preserved,  he has  some                                                               
problems  with the  electors:   the  way  it is  set  up now,  an                                                               
elector, once  he/she is selected,  can vote for  whomever he/she                                                               
pleases.    He posited  that  a  number  of  times in  the  past,                                                               
electors  have  been  pledged  to one  candidate  but  voted  for                                                               
another.   He  suggested  that  there should  be  steps taken  to                                                               
ensure that once chosen, an elector votes as pledged.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  COGHILL said  that such  could be  done statutorily  since                                                               
each state  is responsible for  determining how its  electors are                                                               
handled.   He added that  although such  a change is  outside the                                                               
scope of HJR 23, it is within the scope of the legislature.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE HAYES said  that he has never  liked the electoral                                                               
college  system;  he opined  that  it  disenfranchises voters  by                                                               
taking  away the  whole  concept  of "one  man/one  vote."   When                                                               
people are  told to go  out and vote,  then told that  their vote                                                               
counts but it doesn't really count,  it is problematic.  Half the                                                               
time, no one  knows who the people  are who are going  to vote to                                                               
make the  final decision.   He relayed  that when he's  spoken to                                                               
people this year  about the presidential election,  a response he                                                               
receives is:   "Why  should I  vote?  Somebody  else is  going to                                                               
make  this  decision for  me."    He  opined that  the  electoral                                                               
college is as  politicized as any other system,  referring to the                                                               
presidential  election  of 2000  as  an  example.   He  said  his                                                               
understanding of  the intent  of the  Founding Fathers  when they                                                               
developed  the electoral  college system  was based  on the  fear                                                               
that the  average person who  didn't own land  didn't necessarily                                                               
understand  politics.    But  after 200  years,  he  opined,  the                                                               
average citizen  has gone beyond  that point; therefore,  the use                                                               
of a  one man/one  vote system for  electing the  president makes                                                               
perfectly good  sense.  He added  that his objection to  [HJR 23]                                                               
has nothing  to do with  the 2000 presidential  election, rather,                                                               
he simply  has a fundamental  problem with the  electoral college                                                               
system.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  COGHILL  posited  that  HJR  23  would  bring  the  debate                                                               
regarding the electoral college system to congress.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
Number 2658                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  JAMES,  after noting  that,  "We  are the  United                                                               
States  and  we  do  have  states' rights,"  opined  that  who  a                                                               
president is  does affect individual  states.  She said  that she                                                               
refuses to  put in  a system  that allows  "that decision"  to be                                                               
made  by New  York,  Seattle, Portland,  Chicago,  and all  those                                                               
other large  cities, which is  what would happen with  any system                                                               
other  than the  electoral college.   She  voiced agreement  with                                                               
Representative Crawford  that there  should be  parameters around                                                               
the electors to  the effect that once a state  "goes in a certain                                                               
way," its electors follow suit and vote that same way.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR COGHILL noted  that 24 states plus  Washington D.C. require                                                               
the electors, either  by statute or by pledge,  to vote according                                                               
to the popular vote of their state.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE FATE  pointed out  that there are  similarities in                                                               
demographics  between the  current United  States and  the United                                                               
States at the time the  Founding Fathers instituted the electoral                                                               
college  system:   now, as  then, there  are some  very populated                                                               
states and  some states  with very low  populations.   He offered                                                               
that the  electoral college system protected  the elective system                                                               
so that the highly populated  states could not always and forever                                                               
dominate the election system over  those states that did not have                                                               
large populations.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE HAYES said that  he disagrees with Representatives                                                               
Fate and  James.  He  opined that it  is still the  most populous                                                               
states  that  determine who  the  president  is, even  under  the                                                               
electoral college system.   The states with  only three electoral                                                               
votes, such as  Alaska, don't have the impact  that more populous                                                               
states do.   He reiterated that the Founding  Fathers were afraid                                                               
that  the  common  person  would  not be  able  to  make  such  a                                                               
complicated  decision as  voting for  a president;  the electoral                                                               
college system  was set up  originally so that  [only] landowners                                                               
could  vote.   He  opined  that  although the  electoral  college                                                               
system  has been  in place  for over  200 years,  it has  run its                                                               
course and it is now time to eradicate that system.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE   STEVENS  remarked   that  even   though  Tacoma,                                                               
Washington, has about the same  population as Alaska, Tacoma does                                                               
not  have  three  electoral  votes.   He  then  referred  to  the                                                               
problems Florida  had during the  2000 presidential  election and                                                               
noted that  only recently has  Florida been able to  finalize its                                                               
election  results;  without  the electoral  college  system,  the                                                               
United States would  have had to wait until now  to determine who                                                               
its president would be.   Because the electoral college system is                                                               
in  place, a  decision was  made -  regardless of  whether it  is                                                               
right or wrong - and "we now have a president."                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
Number 2327                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  COGHILL   offered  that   the  electoral   college  system                                                               
preserves  a  republican  form   of  government,  versus  a  pure                                                               
democracy.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE CRAWFORD,  on the  issue of  why neither  Bush nor                                                               
Gore  visited  Alaska  during  the  2000  presidential  campaign,                                                               
opined  that it  is because  everyone assumed  that Alaska  would                                                               
vote for  the Republican candidate  and so "both  candidates just                                                               
wrote our state  off as already being decided."   He opined that,                                                               
"if we  had a proportional  system, we  could make them  pay more                                                               
attention to us."                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR COGHILL opined  that if it is left to  just a popular vote,                                                               
"we  certainly wouldn't  get  their attention."    At least  with                                                               
three votes, Alaska gets some degree of attention, he added.                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Number 2215                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE JAMES moved  to report HJR 23, as  amended, out of                                                               
committee  with  individual  recommendations.    There  being  no                                                               
objection,  CSHJR  23(STA)  was  reported from  the  House  State                                                               
Affairs Standing Committee.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
HB 87 - ALASKA VETERANS ADVISORY COUNCIL                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Number 2170                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR COGHILL announced that the  last order of business would be                                                               
HOUSE  BILL NO.  87,  "An Act  establishing  the Alaska  Veterans                                                               
Advisory Council; and providing for  an effective date."  [Before                                                               
the committee was CSHB 87(MLV).]                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
Number 2165                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR COGHILL mentioned  that he has a  committee substitute (CS)                                                               
that differs  from CSHB 87(MLV),  in that language  requiring two                                                               
legislative members to  sit on the council has been  removed.  He                                                               
opined  that  members  of  the  legislature  should  not  sit  on                                                               
councils within the executive branch.   [This CS was not provided                                                               
in the committee secretary's packet.]                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR COGHILL called an at-ease from 9:09 a.m. to 9:10 a.m.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE JAMES said she disagrees  with that point and that                                                               
she  prefers  CSHB  87(MLV).    She noted  that  there  are  many                                                               
"committees" within  the administration that have  members of the                                                               
legislature  appointed  to them.    "There  is an  advantage  for                                                               
anyone  who is  doing an  advisory  issue," which  may result  in                                                               
legislation  or  otherwise fiscally  impact  the  state, to  have                                                               
someone from the  legislature on their council.   She opined that                                                               
having  members  of  the  legislature   on  the  Alaska  Veterans                                                               
Advisory Council would  provide the council with  a "soft pillow"                                                               
in the discussion  process in the event that  the council decides                                                               
to  recommend  legislation  or otherwise  affect  a  department's                                                               
budget.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Number 1974                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CAROL  CARROLL,   Director,  Administrative   Services  Division,                                                               
Department of Military & Veterans  Affairs (DMVA), explained that                                                               
the DMVA would  like to see the Alaska  Veterans Advisory Council                                                               
instituted in statute, adding that  the council has been of great                                                               
value to  the DMVA  in fulfilling its  mission of  advocating for                                                               
veterans' issues.   The council acts as the eyes  and ears of the                                                               
DMVA for  veterans at both  the state  and national levels.   She                                                               
said that  under HB 87,  the council  would continue the  work it                                                               
currently   does,   noting   that  the   current   administration                                                               
originally created  the council via "Administrative  Order."  The                                                               
council makes  recommendations on issues of  interest to veterans                                                               
in  Alaska  to  the  DMVA,  such as  benefits  for  veterans  and                                                               
recognition  of  veterans'  services.    She  noted  that  HB  87                                                               
stipulates that the council would  include the legislature in its                                                               
discussions  regarding any  recommendations to  the DMVA  and the                                                               
governor.   She  also mentioned  that  the chair  of the  council                                                               
currently provides all  of the council's minutes to  the chair of                                                               
the House  Special Committee on  Military and  Veterans' Affairs.                                                               
She  concluded by  saying that  the DMVA  anticipates that  "that                                                               
sort  of activity"  will continue,  and because  the DMVA  values                                                               
what the  council does for it,  it would like to  see the council                                                               
established in statute.                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  JAMES   asked  how  the  department   felt  about                                                               
including members of  the legislature on the council.   She noted                                                               
that in the past,  she has served as an appointee  on some of the                                                               
administration's  committees, and  she found  it very  helpful in                                                               
terms of  creating a  dialog between  the administration  and the                                                               
legislature regarding legislation.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  HAYES indicated  he  agreed  with Chair  Coghill:                                                               
having legislative members on the  council is not necessary given                                                               
that the  chair of  the House Special  Committee on  Military and                                                               
Veterans'  Affairs  currently  receives  the  council's  minutes.                                                               
Having the  legislature involved  in this advisory  council would                                                               
just make for  an additional layer of people who  are not needed,                                                               
he opined.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR COGHILL mentioned that there  is a letter from the attorney                                                               
general in  members' packets.   [This letter was not  provided in                                                               
the committee secretary's packet.]                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
Number 1656                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
JOHN   GAGUINE,  Assistant   Attorney  General,   Civil  Division                                                               
(Juneau), Department of Law (DOL),  noted that the aforementioned                                                               
letter,  written  in  March, relayed  the  DOL's  concerns  about                                                               
possible  constitutional problems  with  CSHB 87(MLV).   He  said                                                               
that his  goal today is  to make it  clear to the  committee that                                                               
the  administration views  HB 87  as an  important matter.   With                                                               
regard to the  points addressed in the letter,  he explained that                                                               
appointing legislators  to an executive branch  committee would -                                                               
in  the  DOL's  opinion  -   violate  the  "dual  office  holding                                                               
prohibition"  of  the Alaska  State  Constitution  - Article  II,                                                               
Section 5  - and other  separation-of-powers issues.   When asked                                                               
about   other  executive   branch   committees   that  have   had                                                               
legislative  members   appointed  to  them,  he   said  that  the                                                               
administration  has  taken the  position  that,  as a  matter  of                                                               
comity  to the  legislature,  they were  not  going to  challenge                                                               
those committees.   He added that  he could not speak  to whether                                                               
the administration would  behave in the same  fashion toward CSHB                                                               
87(MLV).                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE JAMES  noted that  when she  served on  the Alaska                                                               
Seafood Marketing Institute (ASMI) board,  although she was not a                                                               
voting  member, she  had opportunity  to  discuss issues.   As  a                                                               
member of  the Grant Review  and Bond Reimbursement  Committee of                                                               
the Department  of Education, during drafting  of the regulations                                                               
pertaining to how schools are built  and how to be reimbursed for                                                               
building schools,  she did have  a vote.   With regard to  HB 87,                                                               
she  asked whether  not allowing  the  legislative appointees  to                                                               
vote would change [the DOL's opinion].                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MR. GAGUINE said he did not  think it would change anything since                                                               
the legislative  members would still  be members, and, as  a mere                                                               
advisory  committee, having  a  vote may  not  be that  important                                                               
anyway.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE JAMES,  noting that  since the  administration has                                                               
chosen  not  to  challenge  any of  the  other  executive  branch                                                               
committees that  have legislative members, asked  Mr. Gaguine why                                                               
he is challenging CSHB 87(MLV).                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MR.  GAGUINE  replied that  he  is  merely expressing  the  DOL's                                                               
concerns regarding CSHB  87(MLV), as is done  for any legislation                                                               
to which the DOL has concerns.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  JAMES   posited  that   having  members   of  the                                                               
legislature on the Alaska Veterans  Advisory Council would reduce                                                               
the  likelihood  of  conflict   related  to  legislation  arising                                                               
amongst the various parties involved in veterans' issues.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  HAYES reiterated  that the  legislature currently                                                               
receives  the   council's  minutes,  thus   providing  safeguards                                                               
against conflict.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Number 1342                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  JAMES  noted  that  while it  is  true  that  the                                                               
legislature  is  kept  informed of  the  council's  actions,  the                                                               
legislature currently  has no voice in  the council's discussions                                                               
and decisions.  She continued:                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
     What  I'm looking  for is  a smooth  transition between                                                                    
     that group of folks and  the legislature, as opposed to                                                                    
     having any kind  of a conflict.  And I  think that this                                                                    
     is an  issue which could  ensure that we  wouldn't have                                                                    
     that conflict because you have  a viable person in both                                                                    
     the  House and  Senate  to support  this decision  that                                                                    
     came out.   I'm  not saying it  would be  any different                                                                    
     than  it currently  is, in  this recommendation,  but I                                                                    
     just see that  if we do it in other  areas, we ought to                                                                    
     do it in  this one.  If we separate  this one out, then                                                                    
     it tells  me you don't want  to know what we  [think] -                                                                    
     you're just going to come and  tell us what you want us                                                                    
     to do.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR COGHILL  noted that this is  a good point; "when  people do                                                               
something in a commission and  [then] come to the legislature, we                                                               
automatically become adversarial rather than inclusive."                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  STEVENS said  that  although  he appreciates  the                                                               
separation-of-power concept,  he did  not see  how sitting  on an                                                               
advisory  council could  be considered  a dual-office  violation.                                                               
As an  example, he  said that  he would  first and  foremost view                                                               
Representative James as  a member of the  legislature rather than                                                               
as  a member  of  a council,  board, or  committee  on which  she                                                               
happens  to sit.   He  said he  sees a  real advantage  in having                                                               
legislators on  various [executive branch] committees  because it                                                               
enables  those  legislators to  come  back  to  the rest  of  the                                                               
legislature  and  explain  the committee's  decisions,  and  vice                                                               
versa.   He asked  whether the  Alaska Veterans  Advisory Council                                                               
could truly be considered an "office."                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MR. GAGUINE  said that it has  been the position of  the DOL that                                                               
the  constitutional  prohibition   against  dual  office  holding                                                               
prohibits legislators from holding  "any other office or position                                                               
of profit...."  He specified  that the word "office" stands alone                                                               
in this  prohibition [as  opposed to  "position of  profit"], and                                                               
that  membership  on  an  executive  branch  committee,  even  an                                                               
advisory committee, is  an "office".  He admitted  that there are                                                               
probably  good policy  arguments, both  for and  against allowing                                                               
legislators  to serve  on [executive  branch] committees  such as                                                               
the  Alaska  Veterans  Advisory Council,  but  the  Alaska  State                                                               
Constitution, as  interpreted by  the DOL, prohibits  dual office                                                               
holding regardless of the policy arguments.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Number 1125                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  WILSON  said she  would  like  to know  what  the                                                               
definition  of  "office" is,  and  whether  it means  an  elected                                                               
office or an appointed office.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MR. GAGUINE  replied:  "In  this case it  has to be  an appointed                                                               
office  because this  is a  legislator holding  an office  in the                                                               
executive  branch;  the  only  elected  offices  are,  obviously,                                                               
governor  and lieutenant  governor  and you  can't  hold both  of                                                               
those."                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  WILSON  noted that  some  other  states do  allow                                                               
this; it is not uncommon for  legislators [in other states] to be                                                               
appointed to many different committees.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MR. GAGUINE  said that he  could not speak to  the constitutional                                                               
framework of those other states.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  WILSON  noted  that  it does  help  to  have  the                                                               
legislative  viewpoint on  executive  branch  committees, and  it                                                               
provides  continuity  when  making  decisions.   She  added  that                                                               
obviously, the legislator  on any such committee is  not going to                                                               
sway the whole committee when the  legislator is only 1 out of 19                                                               
or 21 members.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
Number 0923                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MG  PHILLIP E.  OATES, Adjutant  General/Commissioner, Department                                                               
of  Military and  Veterans Affairs  (DMVA), explained  that there                                                               
are many ways in which the veteran's  voice can be heard.  One of                                                               
the  ways  is through  the  DMVA.    There  are also  three  main                                                               
organizations that  exist - the  Veterans of Foreign Wars  of the                                                               
United States  (VFW), the Disabled  American Veterans  (DAV), and                                                               
the American Legion.   He added that the "federal  VA" also has a                                                               
voice, as well  as the many veterans around the  state serving as                                                               
advocates.    Each  one  of those  entities  serves  a  different                                                               
purpose,  and  the  idea  behind  the  Alaska  Veterans  Advisory                                                               
Council is  to talk about  the overarching policy needs  in order                                                               
to  assist the  governor and  legislature in  coming up  with the                                                               
policies that are appropriate for Alaska's veterans.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
GENERAL  OATES said  that he  agrees with  Representative Hayes's                                                               
position.    The  purpose  is  not  to  cut  anyone  out  of  the                                                               
discussions or deliberations.   "We have one of the  most, if not                                                               
the most,  active military and veteran's  affairs committees here                                                               
in our  own House  of Representatives, probably  of any  state in                                                               
the  union."   He noted  that  a couple  of good  points in  CSHB                                                               
87(MLV) are that the council  shall advise the legislature, which                                                               
is highly  appropriate, and  shall annually  make recommendations                                                               
to the  legislature, along with  the governor  and the DMVA.   He                                                               
opined, however,  that there  is value in  having a  council that                                                               
does not have  himself or someone else from  the governor's staff                                                               
as a member;  furthermore, it will still be  possible to interact                                                               
with the council and receive  information from them without being                                                               
a part of the process.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
GENERAL OATES noted that by  putting the Alaska Veterans Advisory                                                               
Council in  statute, it elevates  the importance of  veterans and                                                               
gives them the status by  which they can advocate veterans' needs                                                               
to the legislature,  the governor, and the DMVA.   He also noted,                                                               
based on  his 32 years  of military experience, that  neither the                                                               
military nor the  veterans are political activists;  he said that                                                               
one of  the strengths  of the  military is  that they  have "been                                                               
raised" to  keep out of politics.   He added that  this thread of                                                               
reasoning  is  also  appropriate  in  the  establishment  of  the                                                               
council;  the  council  and  the military  should  work  for  the                                                               
civilian leaders of the military  - the legislature and Congress,                                                               
respectively.   To illustrate what  the Alaska  Veterans Advisory                                                               
Council has done to date, he  said that the council has been very                                                               
helpful with regard to a number  of issues:  the bill giving high                                                               
school  diplomas   to  World  War  II   veterans,  arranging  for                                                               
veterans'  status  for  the  Alaska  Territorial  Guardsman,  and                                                               
making  recommendations  to  the  governor  each  year  regarding                                                               
recognition  for  the veteran  who  has  done  the most  for  all                                                               
veterans  in  the  state.    He  concluded  by  saying  that  the                                                               
legislature has a voice in  the Alaska Veterans Advisory Council,                                                               
and  that  the   council  will  work  with   the  legislature  as                                                               
effectively as with any other body.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
Number 0504                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE   JAMES  reiterated   her  position   that  having                                                               
legislators on  the Alaska Veterans  Advisory Council  would help                                                               
during deliberations, and opined  that had there been legislators                                                               
on  the council  during discussions  regarding the  Pioneers' and                                                               
Veterans' Home,  issues could  have been  resolved in  a smoother                                                               
fashion.  She  stated that she is in favor  of placing the Alaska                                                               
Veterans  Advisory Council  in  statute, but  added  that she  is                                                               
distressed  because,  although  there are  legislators  on  other                                                               
executive branch committees, it appears  that this council is not                                                               
being treated  the same way, as  if to say that  veterans' issues                                                               
are  not  as important  or  that  it  does  not matter  what  the                                                               
legislature can bring to the table regarding these issues.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  COGHILL  noted  that  the current  issue  is  whether  the                                                               
legislature would  be included in  the discussion at  the council                                                               
level  or would  simply get  the  report from  the council  after                                                               
decisions  are  already made;  it  becomes  problematic when  the                                                               
legislature is accused of "playing  volley" with issues when they                                                               
have not been included in the discussion process to begin with.                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
TAPE 01-48, SIDE A                                                                                                              
Number 0001                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
GENERAL OATES  said that  it is very  shortsighted to  think that                                                               
the  legislature  is  not  a   full  participant  in  any  policy                                                               
implemented  by [the  DMVA];  "I  will not  achieve  my goals  by                                                               
having  good ideas  [if]  we don't  work  cooperatively with  the                                                               
legislature."   He  promised that  [the Alaska  Veterans Advisory                                                               
Council]  would work  with the  legislature in  any way  it deems                                                               
fit.  He concluded by saying that  he just thinks it is better to                                                               
have  the   Alaska  Veterans  Advisory   Council  work   for  the                                                               
legislature, without  having a  member of  the legislature  or an                                                               
executive branch employee as a member of the council.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  CRAWFORD opined  that having  legislators on  the                                                               
council  may  "exert  undue  influence" on  the  council  in  its                                                               
deliberations, and  it would  be better to  just let  the council                                                               
deliberate and then bring its decision to the legislature.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE STEVENS  opined that  the comments heard  from the                                                               
department of law are "just  absolutely silly and contradictory."                                                               
To illustrate  this, he referred to  page 2, lines 26-27  of CSHB                                                               
87(MLV), which says  "The council shall elect a  chair from among                                                               
its members who  are not state officers  or employees"; according                                                               
to  the DOL,  everyone  on  the council  will  be considered  "an                                                               
officer" -  having been  appointed to  the "office"  - therefore,                                                               
the implication is that no one can  be chair.  He suggested:  "We                                                               
should do what  we darned well please, and if  the [DOL] wants to                                                               
sue  us over  this  issue,  let them  go  ahead;  let's get  this                                                               
settled in the courts."                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Number 0342                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
TERRI   LAUTERBACH,   Attorney,    Legislative   Legal   Counsel,                                                               
Legislative  Legal  and  Research Services,  Legislative  Affairs                                                               
Agency, said that  although she would not  necessarily typify the                                                               
DOL's comments as "silly, ... I  can probably agree that we don't                                                               
know  how   the  courts  would   rule"  with  regard   to  having                                                               
legislative  members on  the  council.   She  added  that in  its                                                               
letter,  the DOL  made some  statements  that have  not yet  been                                                               
confirmed  by the  courts.   With regard  to the  statement about                                                               
Article I,  Section 5,  that the term  "office" stands  alone and                                                               
that "of profit" does not pertain to  it, she said that it is not                                                               
certain  yet whether  "of profit"  applies to  both "office"  and                                                               
"position", or  only to the latter.   Therefore, it is  not quite                                                               
fair  to say  that someone  who serves  in an  office but  is not                                                               
compensated  is  still  covered   by  this  dual  office  holding                                                               
prohibition; "the courts  haven't told us that."   She noted that                                                               
the other  reasons listed in  the letter seem  to her to  be less                                                               
applicable  to an  advisory [council]  that has  no power;  there                                                               
can't be a  concentration of power when the  [council] itself has                                                               
no power.   Therefore, she surmised, the advisory  nature of this                                                               
council  is  also   something  the  court  would   look  at  when                                                               
determining  whether the  purposes for  not allowing  dual office                                                               
holding  are violated  by having  legislators on  this particular                                                               
council.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MS.  LAUTERBACH, on  the DOL's  concerns regarding  separation of                                                               
powers, pointed out  that council members would  not be executive                                                               
officers:  they don't carry  out laws, they don't make decisions,                                                               
they simply serve in an advisory capacity.  She added:                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
     While  we're not  sure whether  the  court would  agree                                                                    
     with  us or  not,  in [Legislative  Legal and  Research                                                                    
     Services], we  think there's ample  room there  for the                                                                    
     legislature to take  this risk, and ample  room for the                                                                    
     court  to decide  that in  this case  - in  an advisory                                                                    
     commission  where  no  one's  paid,  or  at  least  the                                                                    
     legislators aren't  paid for anything other  than their                                                                    
     [legislative] salaries - ... that  this is ok.  They're                                                                    
     not executive officers, ... they're  not making lots of                                                                    
     money, [and] they're not exerting  power.  On the other                                                                    
     hand,  we don't  know for  sure,  in this  case, how  a                                                                    
     court would come  out 'cause there's no  precedent.  So                                                                    
     it becomes  a policy  call, both  on whether  you think                                                                    
     legislators would  have too much  personal power  - not                                                                    
     executive/legal  power, but  personal power  - to  sway                                                                    
     the members of the board,  and whether you think that's                                                                    
     OK; or,  whether the  advantages of  having legislative                                                                    
     input are outweighed by the  disadvantage of a possible                                                                    
     risk of litigation.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MS. LAUTERBACH, on a question  regarding the staggered three-year                                                               
terms for members, responded that  this provision applies only to                                                               
council  members  who  are  not   state  officers  or  employees;                                                               
therefore,  legislators, being  employees of  the state,  are not                                                               
affected by  this provision.   In conclusion, she noted  that the                                                               
DOL has  taken the  position in the  past that  advisory councils                                                               
are probably not  covered by the prohibition  against dual office                                                               
holding.  In fact, an  opinion from the attorney general's office                                                               
in 1977 pertaining  to a temporary advisory  commission said that                                                               
the prohibition did not apply, she  noted, and added that some of                                                               
the DOL's  concerns could  be alleviated by  putting a  sunset on                                                               
the Alaska Veterans Advisory Council.   She pointed out that many                                                               
statutes have  sunset dates, which  makes those statutes  more or                                                               
less temporary.                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE   STEVENS  asked   Ms.   Lauterbach  whether   her                                                               
interpretation is  that serving on this  council would constitute                                                               
dual office holding.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MS. LAUTERBACH  reiterated that this  is a question that  has not                                                               
yet  been decided  by the  courts and,  therefore, she  could not                                                               
foresee  how the  courts might  decide should  the question  come                                                               
before them.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Number 0826                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  COGHILL  noted  that  the issue  before  the  House  State                                                               
Affairs  Standing Committee  is  whether to  report CSHB  87(MLV)                                                               
from committee.                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE HAYES objected.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
Number 0900                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
A  roll  call  vote  was taken.    Representatives  Fate,  James,                                                               
Stevens, Wilson,  and Coghill voted  to report CSHB  87(MLV) from                                                               
House   State  Affairs   Standing  Committee.     Representatives                                                               
Crawford and Hayes voted against it.  Therefore, CSHB 87(MLV)                                                                   
was reported from the House State Affairs Standing Committee.                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
ADJOURNMENT                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Number 0952                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
There being no further business before the committee, the House                                                                 
State Affairs Standing Committee meeting was adjourned at 9:52                                                                  
a.m.