HOUSE STATE AFFAIRS STANDING COMMITTEE February 22, 1996 8:25 a.m. MEMBERS PRESENT Representative Jeannette James, Chair Representative Scott Ogan, Vice Chair Representative Joe Green Representative Ivan Ivan Representative Brian Porter Representative Caren Robinson Representative Ed Willis MEMBERS ABSENT All members present. COMMITTEE CALENDAR HOUSE BILL NO. 338 "An Act relating to permits to carry concealed handguns." - PASSED OUT OF COMMITTEE HOUSE BILL NO. 405 "An Act extending the termination date of the Board of Examiners in Optometry; and providing for an effective date." - CSHB 405(STA) PASSED OUT OF COMMITTEE HOUSE BILL NO. 457 "An Act relating to the unlicensed practice of certain occupations for which licenses are required." - CSHB 457(STA) PASSED OUT OF COMMITTEE HOUSE BILL NO. 339 "An Act relating to the termination of parental rights of incarcerated parents." - CSHB 339(HES) PASSED OUT OF COMMITTEE (* First public hearing) PREVIOUS ACTION BILL: HB 338 SHORT TITLE: CONCEALED HANDGUN PERMIT AMENDMENTS SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) JAMES, Foster, Kelly JRN-DATE JRN-PG ACTION 05/07/95 1950 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S) 05/07/95 1950 (H) STATE AFFAIRS, JUDICIARY 10/05/95 (H) STA AT 9:00 AM ANCHORAGE LIO 10/05/95 (S) STA AT 9:00 AM ANCHORAGE LIO 10/05/95 (H) MINUTE(STA) 10/05/95 (S) MINUTE(STA) 01/11/96 2419 (H) COSPONSOR(S): KELLY 01/23/96 (H) STA AT 3:30 PM BUTROVICH RM 205 01/23/96 (S) STA AT 3:30 PM BUTROVICH ROOM 205 01/23/96 (H) MINUTE(STA) 01/23/96 (S) MINUTE(STA) 02/13/96 (H) STA AT 8:00 AM CAPITOL 102 02/13/96 (H) MINUTE(STA) 02/17/96 (H) STA AT 10:00 AM CAPITOL 102 02/17/96 (H) MINUTE(STA) 02/20/96 (H) STA AT 8:00 AM CAPITOL 102 02/20/96 (H) MINUTE(STA) 02/22/96 (H) STA AT 8:00 AM CAPITOL 102 BILL: HB 405 SHORT TITLE: EXTEND BOARD OF OPTOMETRISTS SPONSOR(S): LABOR & COMMERCE JRN-DATE JRN-PG ACTION 01/09/96 2392 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S) 01/09/96 2392 (H) STATE AFFAIRS 01/16/96 2452 (H) STA RPT 4DP 3NR 01/16/96 2452 (H) DP: JAMES, IVAN, ROBINSON, WILLIS 01/16/96 2452 (H) NR: PORTER, GREEN, OGAN 01/16/96 2452 (H) FISCAL NOTE (DCED) 01/16/96 (H) STA AT 8:00 AM CAPITOL 102 01/16/96 (H) MINUTE(STA) 01/17/96 2472 (H) FIN REFERRAL ADDED 01/17/96 2472 (H) REFERRED TO FIN 01/24/96 2527 (H) RETURNED TO STATE AFFAIRS 01/24/96 (H) FIN AT 1:30 PM HOUSE FINANCE 519 01/25/96 (H) FIN AT 1:30 PM HOUSE FINANCE 519 01/30/96 (H) STA AT 8:00 AM CAPITOL 102 01/30/96 (H) MINUTE(STA) 02/15/96 (H) STA AT 8:00 AM CAPITOL 102 02/15/96 (H) MINUTE(STA) 02/22/96 (H) STA AT 8:00 AM CAPITOL 102 BILL: HB 457 SHORT TITLE: FINES: UNLICENSED PRACTICE OF OCCUPATION SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) JAMES JRN-DATE JRN-PG ACTION 01/30/96 2569 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S) 01/30/96 2570 (H) STATE AFFAIRS, JUDICIARY 02/06/96 (H) STA AT 8:00 AM CAPITOL 102 02/06/96 (H) MINUTE(STA) 02/08/96 (H) STA AT 8:00 AM CAPITOL 102 02/08/96 (H) MINUTE(STA) 02/15/96 (H) STA AT 8:00 AM CAPITOL 102 02/15/96 (H) MINUTE(STA) 02/22/96 (H) STA AT 8:00 AM CAPITOL 102 BILL: HB 339 SHORT TITLE: PRISON & TERMINATION OF PARENTAL RIGHTS SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) ROKEBERG, Mulder, Robinson JRN-DATE JRN-PG ACTION 05/08/95 1976 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S) 05/08/95 1976 (H) HES, STATE AFFAIRS, JUDICIARY 01/23/96 (H) HES AT 3:00 PM CAPITOL 106 01/23/96 (H) MINUTE(HES) 01/24/96 2528 (H) COSPONSOR(S): MULDER 01/30/96 2573 (H) COSPONSOR(S): ROBINSON 02/15/96 (H) HES AT 3:00 PM CAPITOL 106 02/15/96 (H) MINUTE(HES) 02/19/96 2800 (H) HES RPT CS(HES) NT 3DP 3NR 02/19/96 2801 (H) DP: ROKEBERG, TOOHEY, ROBINSON 02/19/96 2801 (H) NR: G.DAVIS, BUNDE, BRICE 02/19/96 2801 (H) ZERO FISCAL NOTE (DHSS) 02/22/96 (H) STA AT 8:00 AM CAPITOL 102 WITNESS REGISTER BARBARA COTTING, Legislative Administrative Assistant to Representative Jeannette James State Capitol, Room 102 Juneau, Alaska 99801-1182 Telephone: (907) 465-3743 POSITION STATEMENT: Provided sponsor statement for CSHB 338(STA). TOM CLEMONS, Security Officer First National Bank of Anchorage 425 "G" Street Anchorage, Alaska 99510 Telephone: (907) 265-3471 POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony against CSHB 338(STA). LARRY WIGET, Director of Government Relations/Legislative Liaison Anchorage School District 4600 Debarr Road Anchorage, Alaska 99519 Telephone: (907) 269-2255 POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony against CSHB 338(STA). BRUCE EAGLE P.O. Box 303 Wrangell, Alaska 99929 Telephone: (907) 874-2497 POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony in favor of CSHB 338(STA). SUSAN STEVENS P.O. Box 1274 Wrangell, Alaska 99929 Telephone: (907) 874-3271 POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony in favor of CSHB 338(STA). GLENN SMITH P.O. Box 283 Wrangell, Alaska 99929 Telephone: (907) 874-3781 POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony in favor of CSHB 338(STA). GARY SCHEFF P.O. Box 1954 Wrangell, Alaska 99929 Telephone: (907) 874-3427 POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony in favor of CSHB 338(STA). ANGUS RAE P.O. Box 2219 Wrangell, Alaska 99929 Telephone: (907) 874-2534 POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony in favor of CSHB 338(STA). DOUG MCCLOSKEY, Lt. Wrangell Police Department P.O. Box 531 Wrangell, Alaska 99929 Telephone: (907) 874-3304 POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony on CSHB 338(STA). GARY ROTH, President Denali State Bank P.O. Box 74568 Fairbanks, Alaska 99707 Telephone: (907) 456-1400 POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony in favor of CSHB 338(STA). LAUREE HUGONIN, Executive Director Alaska Network on Domestic Violence and Sexual Assault 130 Seward, Room 501 Juneau, Alaska 99801 Telephone: (907) 586-3650 POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony on CSHB 338(STA). WALTER WILCOX, Legislative Assistant House State Affairs Committee State Capitol, Room 102 Juneau, Alaska 99801-1182 Telephone: (907) 465-3743 POSITION STATEMENT: Provided sponsor statement for CSHB 405(STA). JEFFERY GONNASON, O.D. American Optometric Association Medical Park Suite 202 2211 East Northern Lights Blvd. Anchorage, Alaska 99508 Telephone: (907) 276-2080 POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony in favor of CSHB 405(STA). CATHERINE REARDON, Director Central Office Division of Occupational Licensing Department of Commerce and Economic Development P.O. Box 110806 Juneau, Alaska 99811-0806 Telephone: (907) 465-2534 POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony in favor of CSHB 405(STA). MIA COSTELLO, Legislative Administrative Assistant to Representative Norman Rokeberg State Capitol, Room 110 Juneau, Alaska 99801-1182 Telephone: (907) 465-4968 POSITION STATEMENT: Provided sponsor statement for CSHB 339(HES). PEGGY THOMAS 9208 LongRun Drive Juneau, Alaska 99801 Telephone: (907) 465-3621 POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony on CSHB 339(HES). JAN RUTHERDALE, Assistant Attorney General Human Services Section Civil Division Department of Law P.O. Box 110300 Juneau, Alaska 99811-0300 Telephone: (907) 465-3600 POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony on CSHB 339(HES). DIANE WORLEY, Director Central Office Division of Family and Youth Services Department of Health and Social Services P.O. Box 110630 Juneau, Alaska 99811-0630 Telephone: (907) 465-3191 POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony on CSHB 339(HES). MARTHA STEVENS, Guardian ad litem 515 North Franklin Street Juneau, Alaska 99801 Telephone: (907) 586-3689 POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony on CSHB 339(HES)> ACTION NARRATIVE TAPE 96-22, SIDE A Number 0015 The House State Affairs Committee was called to order by Chair Jeannette James at 8:25 a.m. Members present at the call to order were Representatives Willis, Ivan, Porter and James. Members absent were Representatives Green, Ogan and Robinson. HB 338 - CONCEALED HANDGUN PERMIT AMENDMENTS The first order of business to come before the House State Affairs Committee was CSHB 338(STA). CHAIR JEANNETTE JAMES called on Barbara Cotting, Legislative Administrative Assistant to Representative Jeannette James, to present the proposed amendments to CSHB 338(STA). Number 0067 BARBARA COTTING, Legislative Administrative Assistant to Representative Jeannette James, read the following statement into the record. "Ignore all previous drafts and amendments! Draft Version G makes the following changes to the current statute: "Section 1 provides an affirmative defense against prosecution for misconduct involving weapons in the fourth degree (possessing a deadly weapon on school grounds) by allowing a licensee to carry a concealed handgun on school grounds within a propelled vehicle, other than a school bus, as long as the defendant did not exit the propelled vehicle. "Section 2 provides an affirmative defense against prosecution for misconduct involving weapons in the fifth degree (possessing a deadly weapon where intoxicating liquor is sold for consumption on the premises) by allowing a licensee to carry a concealed handgun into a place where intoxicating liquor is sold for consumption on the premises as long as the defendant did not consume intoxicating liquor there and did not consume intoxicating liquor at any time during the previous eight hours. "It also clarifies current statute which provides an affirmative defense if the possession occurred on business premises owned or leased by the defendant or in the course of the defendant's employment for the owner or lessee of the premises. "Section 3 requires the Department of Public Safety to provide each applicant with a copy of state laws and regulations relating to concealed handguns. "Section 4 gives the Department of Public Safety a total of 30 days (instead of 15 days after receipt of background check information) to either approve or reject an application. "Section 5 amends qualifications for obtaining a permit. It returns to the original list of disqualifying misdemeanors in current statute. It also changes the residency requirement from one year to 90 days. "Section 6 changes the Department of Public Safety's requirement to provide each applicant with a copy of state laws and regulations relating to just concealed handguns (rather than relating to all firearms). "Section 7 adds a new subsection allowing an honorably retired peace officer to apply for and receive a permit within one year of retirement without having to demonstrate competency. This applies only to the initial application, not to subsequent renewals. "Section 8 adds a new section allowing the Department of Public Safety to enter into reciprocity agreements with other states. Applicants from qualifying states must meet Alaska's qualifications and pay a fee not to exceed Alaska's initial application fee. "Section 9 lowers the application fee cap to $65 and the renewal fee cap to $30. "Section 10 changes the list of places where a licensee may NOT carry a concealed handgun, to include only: 1. All places prohibited by federal law (all federal facilities and federal courts, airplanes, and some national parks). 2. State courthouses or courtrooms. 3. Residences, businesses, or meetings where notice prohibiting concealed handguns is conspicuously posted. 4. School grounds except within the licensee's vehicle. 5. Municipalities or villages that have opted out. "Section 11 changes the penalties for carrying a concealed handgun into a prohibited place. "The first offense is a violation, punishable by a fine. "The second offense is a class B misdemeanor. "The third and any subsequent offense are class A misdemeanors (two Class A misdemeanors cause revocation of the license), EXCEPT: "Section 12 adds a new subsection making it a class A misdemeanor to carry a concealed handgun in public while consuming intoxicating liquor or within eight hours after consuming an intoxicating liquor. "Section 13 repeals penalties for late renewal of a permit." Number 0454 REPRESENTATIVE IVAN IVAN asked Ms. Cotting to clarify the definition of a propelled vehicle. MS. COTTING said it was a legal definition the bill drafter came up with. Number 0468 REPRESENTATIVE BRIAN PORTER explained within the definition of propelled vehicles were snowmobiles, 4-wheelers, and recreational vehicles. He further explained a motor vehicle was defined as the traditional automobile, while propelled vehicles included the others. Number 0486 MS. COTTING replied propelled vehicle was included to deal partly with the rural areas. REPRESENTATIVE IVAN replied, "I appreciate that." CHAIR JAMES called on the first witness via teleconference in Anchorage, Tom Clemons. Number 0529 TOM CLEMONS, Security Guard, First National Bank of Anchorage, said the bank did not support the bill as written. He said it did not want any concealed handguns in the bank. He further said the bank feared potential violence as a result of a customer service problem, for example. He also stated other financial institutions also believed they remained in the law and did not know until this morning about the changes, and asked for more time so that others could testify. Number 0648 CHAIR JAMES explained to Mr. Clemons, as the law was written, a bank could post a notice to not allow concealed handguns on its premise. Number 0664 MR. CLEMONS replied the bank understood that, but a state statute was stronger than a business policy. He said the bank liked the law as it was before the amendments. Number 0692 CHAIR JAMES explained to Mr. Clemons that the training for carrying a concealed handgun did not allow a permittee to act as a police officer, and that he was only allowed to use the deadly force as protection of himself or his family. Therefore, a permittee would be powerless to act in the event of a bank robbery, for example. Number 0734 MR. CLEMONS replied life skills and disciplines of individuals were different for everyone. He said as a former police officer and based on his experiences the discipline Chair James was referring to was not learned in a two hour period. Number 0782 CHAIR JAMES explained to Mr. Clemons that permittees felt safe carrying a concealed handgun when walking with large sums of money to a bank, and was concerned a notice would preclude them from that protection. She wondered what the permittee would do with the handgun upon entering the bank. Number 0820 MR. CLEMONS replied the bank had the same problem within the central vault area. He stated the position of the bank was that money was money and it was not worth the life of anybody. A life should not be put into jeopardy for a case of theft. A person in a bank was guaranteed some protection due to security guards, cameras, and other deterrents so a permittee could be assured that once he was in the bank there was protection. Number 0873 CHAIR JAMES replied Mr. Clemons did not understand her question. She wondered again what the permittee would do with the handgun upon entering the bank. Number 0902 MR. CLEMONS responded there was the option for the permittee to leave the handgun in his vehicle. Number 0924 CHAIR JAMES wondered about a permittee that walked to the bank. MR. CLEMONS stated there were deterrents such as surveillance cameras that protected the surrounding area of a bank. He cited the statistics indicated it was safer at a bank because of the unforeseen deterrents. He said he understood what Chair James was saying, but the banks did not want handguns brought inside and wanted a state law to assist in this endeavor. Number 0975 CHAIR JAMES explained the next committee of referral for CSHB 338(STA) was the House Judiciary Committee and suggested further testimony from Mr. Clemons and his friends when the bill was in that committee. Number 0992 MR. CLEMONS announced Mr. Arson from the National Bank of Alaska did not know the amendments to the law did not include banks, otherwise he would have been here today to testify as well as others. He suggested to Chair James to hear their testimony before moving the bill to the next committee of referral. Number 1023 CHAIR JAMES replied the House Judiciary Committee would do a fine job hearing their testimony. She said she felt comfortable moving the bill forward, if that was the decision of the House State Affairs Committee members. CHAIR JAMES called on the next witness via teleconference in Anchorage, Larry Wiget. Number 1037 LARRY WIGET, Director of Government Relations/Legislative Liaison, Anchorage School District, said the district opposed CSHB 338(STA). He cited the school district specifically opposed Section 1 that provided an affirmative defense against protection of prosecution involving weapons in the fourth degree by allowing a licensee to carry a concealed handgun on school grounds within a propelled vehicle, other than a school bus, as long as the defendant did not exit the propelled vehicle. He also cited Section 10, subsection 4 that did not allowed a concealed handgun on school grounds except within the licensee's vehicle. He said the Anchorage School District had strong policies against weapons. He cited there was no tolerance for weapons or drugs. He also cited there was a municipal ordinance that prohibited weapons on school grounds. He said this was an emotional issue for many, but for the safety of the students, the message the district wanted to send to them was weapons concealed or not were not welcome on the school grounds. Number 1106 CHAIR JAMES explained to Mr. Wiget there were 4,000 permittees that passed a stringent background check and attended classes to obtain their permit. She further explained they had a right to protect themselves while in public. Number 1126 MR. WIGET said the district recognized there were approximately 4,000 permittees. However, the district was responsible for the 47,623 students entering and exiting the school grounds throughout the day. He cited in a large high school at the beginning and at the end of the day, a large number of students were in the parking lot, and was concerned about a concealed weapon in one of the vehicles. Number 1162 CHAIR JAMES said she understood his concern, and asked what he feared from the permittees. Number 1168 MR. WIGET replied, the issue for the Anchorage School District was the safety of the students, and it did not want guns on school grounds. Number 1177 CHAIR JAMES commented the message the district was giving to the students was that guns were evil. She explained a better message to give was that guns in the wrong hands were evil. CHAIR JAMES called on the next witness via teleconference in Wrangell, Bruce Eagle. Number 1206 BRUCE EAGLE said he was a certified rifle and pistol instructor. He announced he supported CSHB 338(STA). He suggested adding that the Department of Public Safety provide an abstract in the use of deadly force for future state accountability. CHAIR JAMES agreed with Mr. Eagle regarding the abstract in the use of deadly force. She called it a good idea. She said the individuals applying for a permit knew about the use of a deadly force, but it did not hurt to enforce it and an abstract was a good idea. CHAIR JAMES called on the next witness via teleconference in Wrangell, Susan Stevens. Number 1283 SUSAN STEVENS said she was a certified rifle and pistol instructor. She announced she supported CSHB 338(STA). She especially was in favor of changing the fees. She also agreed with Mr. Eagle regarding the abstract in the use of a deadly force. CHAIR JAMES called on the next witness via teleconference in Wrangell, Glenn Smith. Number 1310 GLENN SMITH said he agreed with CSHB 338(STA). He also agreed with Mr. Eagle and Ms. Stevens that a description of the use of a deadly force should be available. He further commented that a concealed handgun on school grounds was a good way to demonstrate a law abiding citizen to the students. Number 1380 CHAIR JAMES agreed it was important to send an overall message to students about the use and evilness of guns. CHAIR JAMES called on the next witness via teleconference in Wrangell, Gary Scheff. Number 1391 GARY SCHEFF said he supported CSHB 338(STA) as written. CHAIR JAMES called on the next witness via teleconference in Wrangell, Angus Rae. Number 1405 ANGUS RAE said he supported CSHB 338(STA). He said it was cost prohibited before, over $500 for two permits. He said he and his wife took the class and it was very well done. He explained in Wrangell there were houses within a close proximity to the schools, and wondered how it was possible to tell the home owners they could not have a handgun in their home. Number 1444 CHAIR JAMES explained the fee in CSHB 338(STA) was $65. She announced there would be an amendment to raise that to $99 based on the department's needs and general fund. CHAIR JAMES called on the next witness via teleconference in Wrangell, Doug McCloaky. Number 1505 DOUG MCCLOAKY, Lt., Wrangell Police Department, stated the training renewal was excessive. He suggested a quiz, for example, and reiterated a full training course was redundant. He said he was opposed to letting a concealed handgun into a bar. He stated there was no need to mix handguns and alcohol. He further stated the message to the students should be of responsibility and personal accountability, and not that the gun was evil. Number 1581 CHAIR JAMES explained the license was good for five years. She announced she was not willing to address that issue now, but in four years it should be looked at again. Number 1608 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER commented the renewal training was an opportunity for a permittee to stay abreast of the laws. CHAIR JAMES called on the next witness via telephone in Fairbanks, Gary Roth, President, Denali State Bank. Number 1642 GARY ROTH, President, Denali State Bank, said contrary to previous testimony from the banking industry, he supported the ability of a permittee to take his firearm into his bank. He wondered if national banks and federal credit unions were included in the original bill because it addressed those banks that operated under state statutes. Nonetheless, he did not want his bank to be a target with criminals knowing no one was armed. He said he wanted a potential bank robber to think that the person standing next to him or her might be armed. He stated the permittees were honest citizens, and reiterated he did not want his bank to be a target. CHAIR JAMES called on the next witness in Juneau, Lauree Hugonin, Executive Director, Alaska Network on Domestic Violence and Sexual Assault. Number 1784 LAUREE HUGONIN, Executive Director, Alaska Network on Domestic Violence and Sexual Assault, said the network was concerned about the definition of "residents." She wondered if the definition included shelter programs and safe home programs. She said a law would be stronger and urged the committee members to include them in the bill. In conclusion she wondered about creating peace and the choices to create peace. She explained peace only existed in a "we" society where the interdependence was recognized. She further said peaceful living took a lot of courage and consistent action and asked the committee members to consider that. Number 1964 CHAIR JAMES responded humans were social animals and we needed each other to survive. However, a balance was needed between collective behavior and individual behavior, while recognizing the rights of others and one's own individuality. Number 2056 MS. HUGONIN explained abusers in domestic violence situations often did not have a criminal record. Therefore, they would pass the background check to obtain a permit, and called it a mechanism for further intimidation. She cited an example whereby an abuser could simply point to his concealed handgun to intimidate the person being abused and no one would be aware of it. Number 2111 CHAIR JAMES replied, historically, that fear had not been an issue in places that already had a concealed handgun permit law. She commented fear was real and not always based on reality. She further addressed Ms. Hugonin's concerns regarding residents. She explained the bill also included businesses and if the programs or shelters did not fit a resident it would then be a business. Number 2151 MS. HUGONIN asked if that provision was in Section 10, subsection 3 or 4? CHAIR JAMES said a residence and business was ongoing and the section gave everyone the right to post a notice to prohibit a concealed handgun. Number 2190 MS. HUGONIN said she did not see where a business was listed. She stated she saw a "residence" and a "meeting of a business." CHAIR JAMES referred Ms. Hugonin to Section 10, subsection 3 and 4, and read "a residence where notice that carrying a concealed handgun is prohibited has been given by the posting of a conspicuous notice or by oral statement by the resident to the permittee; a meeting of a business, charitable, or other organization or entity where notice that carrying a concealed handgun is prohibited has been given by the posting of conspicuous notice." Number 2219 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER commented there might be a typo in Section 10, subsection 4. He said it probably should say "a meeting or a business, charitable, or other organization..." CHAIR JAMES replied, "I think you're right." That was the intent anyway. She suggested an amendment. CHAIR JAMES called on the next witness in Juneau, Claudia Douglas, President, National Education Association. Number 2249 CLAUDIA DOUGLAS, President, National Education Association (NEA), said the NEA opposed CSHB 338(STA) allowing a weapon on school property. She explain NEA believed the students and school employees should be safe from violence and weapons and from the threat of violence. Guns concealed or in the open had no place in school or on school grounds period, she asserted. Schools should be weapon free and havens of safety for our children and our school employees. She explained, school systems were dealing with escalating violence all over the country. There were increasing reports of students assaulting students or teachers, school vandalism, and gang violence, and the majority of these reports involved guns. It not only detracted educators from their main function of educating students, but it was a great psychological impact and economical cost to individuals and society. People young and old alike had a fascination for guns and violence and cited television shows and recent movies such as Casino, City Hall. She explained violence was a part of the fabric of our lives and our society. She said she was sure that some of the supporters of this bill would say that this was for law abiding citizens, the responsible citizen who would never hurt anybody intentionally. The reality was, however, that everyday we hear reports of accidents with guns, and she cited the man that shot a bird that flew into his house where the bullet went through two rooms and hit his wife in the kitchen. Luckily, she did not die. She stressed again guns in schools and children do not mix, and schools and school grounds must be gun free. Many communities and schools were adopting a no tolerance policy for any type of weapons, she explained. It seemed illogical and unsettling to believe that in Alaska we would allow a bill to become law that would permit guns anywhere near a school. She said she understand that this bill was an attempt to simplify the procedures for those who have permits to carry handguns and was not opposed to someone that had a permit and the process established, but was concerned about the greater problem of a society where the citizens felt a need to carry a handgun. Furthermore, another problem was enforcement. Teachers and school employees were not police, and she wondered if someone were seen or suspected of carrying a concealed weapon, was it the responsibility of the school employee to check out the permit? How would a school employee determine if someone was wearing a concealed weapon as a law abiding permittee or as someone that was violating the law, she asked? She further stated there were many gray areas in the bill concerning motorcycles, snowmobiles, and 4- wheelers. She urged the committee members to amend the CSHB 338(STA) and reestablish the prohibition of concealed weapons on school grounds. Number 2413 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER moved to adopt CSHB 338(STA) for consideration. Hearing no objection, it was so adopted. Number 2426 CHAIR JAMES asked for a motion to amend the fee from "$65" to "$99" in Section 9. Number 2438 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER moved that on page 6, line 9, to amend the fee from "$65" to "$99." Hearing no objection, it was so amended. Number 2450 CHAIR JAMES explained the concern of Ms. Hugonin on page 7, line 4, concerning the language of "a meeting of a business," and asked Representative Porter for a recommendation. Number 2471 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER said the intent of the subsection was to not allow a concealed handgun on the property if the business, charitable or other organization did not want it. He suggested a conceptual amendment. TAPE 96-22, SIDE B Number 0047 CHAIR JAMES suggested leaving the wordage to the drafter. She explained she would pass the new committee substitute to the committee members and if there were any concerns it could be taken- up in the House Judiciary Committee. REPRESENTATIVE PORTER commented there were gatherings that did not enter a building, and suggested including the words "property" and "facilities." CHAIR JAMES wondered about the lines of enforcement. REPRESENTATIVE PORTER explained they were at the driveway. CHAIR JAMES asked if there were any objections to the conceptual amendment. Hearing none, it was so adopted. Number 0082 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER moved that CSHB 338(STA) move from committee with individual recommendations and attached fiscal notes. Hearing no objection, it was so moved from the House State Affairs Committee. HB 405 - EXTEND BOARD OF OPTOMETRISTS The next order of business to come before the House State Affairs Committee was CSHB 405(STA). CHAIR JAMES called on Walter Wilcox, Legislative Assistant, House State Affairs Committee, to present the committee substitute. Number 0133 WALT WILCOX, Legislative Assistant, House State Affairs Committee, requested Catherine Reardon, Director, Division of Occupational Licensing, to join him at the table. He also announced Jeffrey Gonnason, O.D. was on line in Anchorage to testify regarding the changes in the committee substitute. Number 0171 JEFFREY GONNASON, O.D., American Optometric Association, said CSHB 405(STA) extended the optometry licensing board, and contained the amendments suggested by the state legislative audit. It repealed sections to comply with the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA), repealed the section on branch licenses, and added language to clarify the delegation of duties to employees of licensed physicians and optometrists, and lastly, clarified the exemption from the optician chapter. He explained licensed physicians and optometrists had always utilized assistants in their practice such as opticians. He explained in 1980 changes were made to the optician audit of which included the surreptitious removal of the exemption. He said this caused a conflict of the laws. He said he tried to resolve this in regulation as the optometry board president in 1988, but discovered it needed to be resolved in statute. The recent audits of the board of opticians and the board of optometrist pointed out the conflict so CSHB 405(STA) resolved this problem by clarifying that doctors may delegate duties to their employees in their office and under their supervision, and that these employees, who the doctor was responsible for, were exempt from the optician law. This bill, however, would not change current practices. Number 0298 CHAIR JAMES called on Catherine Reardon, Division of Occupational Licensing, to testify. Number 0306 CATHERINE REARDON, Director, Central Office, Division of Occupational Licensing, Department of Commerce and Economic Development, explained CSHB 405(STA) resolved the conflict issue discussed the last time the bill was presented to the House State Affairs Committee members. Number 0321 CHAIR JAMES announced the Board of Dispensing Opticians also supported the committee substitute. She further announced she would like to move the bill to the next committee of referral. Number 0338 MR. WILCOX explained Dr. Madson in Juneau, Dr. Gonnason in Anchorage, and the department suggested adding to page 1, line 11, the word "opticianry" after the word "delegated," and to page 2, line 15, the word "opticianry" after the word "perform." Number 0390 REPRESENTATIVE IVAN moved to adopt CSHB 405(STA) for consideration. Hearing no objection it was so adopted. Number 0397 REPRESENTATIVE IVAN moved that page 1, line 11, the word "opticianry" be inserted after the word "delegated," and that page 2, line 15, the word "opticianry" be inserted after the word "perform." Hearing no objection, it was so amended. Number 0424 REPRESENTATIVE IVAN moved that CSHB 405(STA) as amended move from the committee with individual recommendations and attached fiscal note. Hearing no objection, it was so moved from the House State Affairs Committee. HB 457 - FINES: UNLICENSED PRACTICE OF OCCUPATION The next order of business to come before the House State Affairs Committee was CSHB 457 (STA). CHAIR JAMES called on Mr. Wilcox and Ms. Reardon to present the committee substitute. Number 0483 MR. WILCOX explained the committee substitute deleted the portion that applied to business licenses, and clarified how the department would regulate it. MS. REARDON concurred with Mr. Wilcox's summarization. Number 0528 REPRESENTATIVE ED WILLIS moved that CSHB 457(STA) move from the committee with individual recommendations and zero fiscal note. Hearing no objection, it was so moved from the House State Affairs Committee. HB 339 - PRISON & TERMINATION OF PARENTAL RIGHTS The next order of business to come before the House State Affairs Committee was CSHB 339(HES). CHAIR JAMES called on Mia Costello, Legislative Administrative Assistant to Representative Norm Rokeberg, to present the sponsor statement. Number 0619 MIA COSTELLO, Legislative Administrative Assistant to Representative Norm Rokeberg, explained HB 339 responded to two court cases in 1983 and 1995 of which the court asked the legislature to look at the child in need of aid statute and the termination of parental rights. The bill she explained allowed the courts to look at a parent's imprisonment which currently did not have the statutory authority to do this. She referred the committee members to page 4, and explained the addition of the words "or incarceration," and "or the period of incarceration is likely to continue to exist sufficiently long to seriously damage the parent and child relationship or to cause serious emotional or physical harm to the child." She stated in-order-for parental rights to be terminated a child must be adjudicated in need of aid as a result of parental conduct. Under current statute the courts could not consider incarceration conduct because it was not a willful act. Therefore, the courts asked the legislature to revisit this statute and clarify it. She stated the conditions to seriously damage a parent/child relationship must be met in all cases and not just in cases where the parent was in prison. She further explained the change on page 2, line 10, added the words "and able" to clarify the caring or willing interpretation. Number 0804 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER announced the bill was necessary, and would subscribe to moving it out of the committee. Number 0823 CHAIR JAMES wondered if the bill affected native children and whether or not the person needed to be a relative to take care of the child. Number 0841 MS. COSTELLO explained the Indian Child Welfare Act concern was deliberated in the House Health, Education and Social Services Committee. She asserted the sponsor did not believe that the bill affected the Act. Number 0585 REPRESENTATIVE IVAN explained there was a century old tradition where the children were taken care of by the nearest relative and extended family system. He said it worked very well, and was concerned about taking that away and making the children dependent on the state. Number 0898 CHAIR JAMES agreed with Representative Ivan and further stated she was concerned the native child would be taken automatically. Number 0933 MS. COSTELLO replied a child must be adjudicated a child in need of aid before parental rights could be terminated. The law said the child must refuse to accept available care or have no parent, guardian, custodian or relative caring or willing to provide care to be adjudicated. CHAIR JAMES called on the next witness in Juneau, Peggy Thomas. Number 0986 PEGGY THOMAS explained she was the foster parent of the two children mentioned in the case A.M. v. State of Alaska whereby the judge asked the legislature to clarify this issue. She said the two children had been in her care for five years. Presently their father was incarcerated for sexual abuse. She mentioned he would be released this fall. The mother had relinquished her parental rights and had agreed to let her adopt the children. She explained the mother was native and did not have a willing or able relative to care for the children. She stated the children needed a permanent home and some permanency in their life. She further explained the judge needed the latitude to terminate the father's rights due to his incarceration. CHAIR JAMES called on the next witness in Juneau, Jan Rutherdale, Department of Law. Number 1112 JAN RUTHERDALE, Assistant Attorney General, Human Services Section, Civil Division, Department of Law, said the department supported CSHB 339(HES). Number 1130 REPRESENTATIVE WILLIS referred the committee members to page 2, line 10, and read "and able." He wondered if this inclusion would adversely impact the handicapped. Number 1151 MS. RUTHERDALE explained everybody had interpreted the law that a parent had to be both "willing" and "able" to provide care, and if they could not, the state would intervene. She said one month ago the Supreme Court literally read the word "or" in the statute. Therefore, the inclusion clarified this recent shift in interpretation. She further explained the word "care" in statute meant able to provide for the physical, emotion, social and mental needs of children, and there were handicapped individuals that did a wonderful job raising their children. The state would have to prove the parent was not able to provide the necessary care, and could not rule based only on a handicap. CHAIR JAMES called on the next witness in Juneau, Diane Worley, Department of Health and Social Services. Number 1277 DIANE WORLEY, Director, Central Office, Division of Family and Youth Services, Department of Health and Social Services, said the division and department supported CSHB 339(HES). She said the Indian Child Welfare Act was not impacted by this bill and did not negate the process of guaranteeing the act was followed. She further explained the bill would give the division another opportunity or factor to consider in the termination of a parental right. CHAIR JAMES called on the next witness in Juneau, Martha Stevens. Number 1388 MARTHA STEVENS, Guardian at litem, said she supported CSHB 339(HES) because children had the right to grow-up in a consistent and healthy environment. Number 1431 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER moved that CSHB 339(HES) move from the committee with individual recommendations and attached fiscal notes. Hearing no objection, it was so moved from the House State Affairs Committee. Number 1495 CHAIR JAMES asked the committee members to consider waiving HB 498, the Betty Kato Bridge Bill. There was no objection, and announced she would ask for a waiver on the floor of the House of Representatives. ADJOURNMENT Number 1520 CHAIR JAMES adjourned the House State Affairs Committee meeting at 9:45 a.m.