HOUSE STATE AFFAIRS STANDING COMMITTEE WORK SESSION ON HB 348 February 10, 1996 2:08 p.m. MEMBERS PRESENT Representative Jeannette James, Chair Representative Scott Ogan, Vice Chair Representative Joe Green Representative Brian Porter Representative Caren Robinson Representative Ed Willis MEMBERS ABSENT Representative Ivan Ivan COMMITTEE CALENDAR HOUSE BILL NO. 348 "An Act requiring that all official interviews with children who are alleged to have been abused or neglected be videotaped or audiotaped." - HEARD AND HELD PREVIOUS ACTION BILL: HB 348 SHORT TITLE: VIDEO/AUDIOTAPE INTERVIEW OF ABUSED MINOR SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) JAMES, Therriault, Kelly, Toohey JRN-DATE JRN-PG ACTION 05/13/95 2173 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S) 05/13/95 2174 (H) STATE AFFAIRS, HES, JUD, FINANCE 08/26/95 (H) STA AT 01:00 PM 08/26/95 (H) MINUTE(STA) 01/08/96 2383 (H) COSPONSOR(S): KELLY, TOOHEY 01/23/96 (H) STA AT 08:00 AM CAPITOL 102 01/23/96 (H) MINUTE(STA) 02/10/96 (H) STA AT 02:00 PM CAPITOL 102 WITNESS REGISTER DEL SMITH, Deputy Commissioner Office of the Commissioner Department of Public Safety P.O. Box 111200 Juneau, Alaska 99811-1200 Telephone: (907) 465-4322 POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony on HB 348. DIANE WORLEY, Director Division of Family and Youth Services Department of Health and Social Services P.O. Box 110630 Juneau, Alaska 99811-0630 Telephone: (907) 465-3191 POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony on HB 348. YVONNE CHASE, Deputy Commissioner Office of the Commissioner Department of Health and Social Services P.O. Box 110601 Juneau, Alaska 99811-0601 Telephone: (907) 465-3030 POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony on HB 348. JAYNE ANDREEN, Executive Director Council on Domestic Violence and Sexual Assault Department of Public Safety P.O. Box 111200 Juneau, Alaska 99811-1200 Telephone: (907) 465-4356 POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony on HB 348. ACTION NARRATIVE TAPE 96-13, SIDE A Number 0000 The work session was called to order by Chair Jeannette James at 2:08 p.m. Members present at the call to order were Representatives James, Ogan, Robinson and Willis. Members absent were Representatives Ivan, Green and Porter. CHAIR JEANNETTE JAMES announced the meeting this afternoon was a work session to address the concerns and ideas of the various interested parties regarding HB 348 which would require video/audiotaping of all interviews with children in cases of alleged abuse. CHAIR JAMES said as members of the public sign-in she would announce their name so that everyone here today would know who was present. CHAIR JAMES announced the deliberations today would be taped and brief notes would be taken but not transcribed. Therefore, she suggested the work session members take personal notes. She further announced the work session would be very informal, however, it would be necessary to recognize each speaker to assure that the tape of this meeting would be credible. CHAIR JAMES said as Chair and sponsor of HB 348 she wanted to make it perfectly clear the intent of the work session today was to establish more accountability with supportive evidence for the Division of Family and Youth Services (DFYS). She further stated young people were very vulnerable and that each child was an individual and many times did not fit the mold that was expected of a particular age or gender group. Therefore, it was very possible for an interviewer to ask the wrong questions and receive the wrong answers. She further stated she believed and supported the notion that leading questions could make wrong impressions, and the impressionable child could begin to believe what they said. Therefore, there must be a way to verify that there was no undue persuasion or lack of due diligence on the part of the interviewer to get to the truth. She cited it was possible to make false accusations as well as assume valid accusations were false. CHAIR JAMES further stated she believed everyone that interviewed a child under these circumstances would prefer to have evidence supporting their decisions and an ability for a second opinion without having to subject the child to additional interrogations. Therefore, the work session today was to determine how to make this work. She asserted it was not an option to continue as usual and not address the problem. Moreover, as well as determining how this might work, the work session members needed to provide a way to accomplish this goal with the least amount of spending possible or it would just be defeated in the House Standing Finance Committee. She announced the goal was to have this bill signed into law. CHAIR JAMES explained she did not require all of the House State Affairs Committee members to be present today. REPRESENTATIVE CAREN ROBINSON suggested including one or two key witnesses at the table. The record reflected Representative Ivan Ivan was not present today due to an illness. Number 0484 CHAIR JAMES read the following list of witnesses present into the record. Diane Worley, Division of Family and Youth Services; Lauree Hugonin, Alaska Network on Domestic Violence and Sexual Assault; Nina Kinney, Division of Family and Youth Services; Carla Timpone, Legislative Assistant to Representative Caren Robinson; Del Smith, Department of Public Safety; Jayne Andreen, Council on Domestic Violence and Sexual Assault; Anne Carpeneti, Department of Law; Yvonne Chase, Department of Health and Social Services; Chris Stockard, Department of Public Safety; Elmer Lindstrom, Department of Health and Social Services; Wilda Whitaker, Legislative Assistant to Representative Gene Therriault; Hans Neidig, Legislative Assistant to Representative Scott Ogan; Bill Stoltz, Legislative Assistant to Representative Ed Willis; Myrna McGhie, Legislative Assistant to Representative Jeannette James; and Barbara Cotting, Legislative Assistant to Representative Jeannette James. Number 0615 REPRESENTATIVE ROBINSON suggested testimony from the departments to determine what interviewing techniques were used across the state. She also cited a working group protocol used during the Cowper Administration. Number 0700 CHAIR JAMES referred the work session members to a letter dated February 9, 1996 from the Department of Public Safety addressing the current status of interview rooms. She stated revisions were needed to include the bush communities and suggested a phasing-in approach to make it physically and financially feasible. Consequently, the public would feel like the bill was moving in a direction of accountability. She further said she appreciated the workers in the social service area, because their decisions were difficult and the repercussions were great. Therefore, the more accountability and focus established, the better off the workers, families, and children affected would be. CHAIR JAMES announced the presence of Representative Brian Porter. She further announced Representatives: Ogan, Willis and Robinson were present for the record. Number 0830 DEL SMITH, Deputy Commissioner, Office of the Commissioner, Department of Public Safety, said he still opposed mandatory audio/videotaping interviews of alleged abuse. He stated it was best to videotape or audiotape, however, he was concerned about the broadness of HB 348. He cited it ranged from the teacher at the school to the Department of Law to audio/videotape the interview. He further said he was concerned about the potential of an interviewer to lead the questions, and stated a bad interview was a bad interview whether it was taped or not. Therefore, training, qualifications, and availability of videotapes were the issues. He further stated the courts mandated an audio record of all criminal interviews, and in some cases a videotape was used for major cases, but it was not mandated. He asserted his overall concern was a case being "flushed" because an interview was not recorded. Number 1025 CHAIR JAMES responded that was the type of constructive comments she wanted to hear today. Number 1089 DIANE WORLEY, Director, Division of Family and Youth Services, Department of Health and Social Services, said mandatory video/audiotaping interviews would not address the core issues. The issues were training, and appropriate techniques. Therefore, as Director of DFYS she would like to focus on interview training techniques; providing enough supervision; and reviewing, and updating policy and procedure manuals. She cited training was reviewed recently resulting in three regional trainers statewide focusing on supervision and interview training techniques. She also cited the division was looking at accrediting the staff to set certain standards. She asserted concentrating on the above would provide accountability. CHAIR JAMES announced the presence of Representative Joe Green for the record. Number 1296 YVONNE CHASE, Deputy Commissioner, Office of the Commissioner, Department of Health and Social Services, referred to a multi- department agreement made in 1984 to accomplish the very idea being discussed today - to minimize the trauma to a child through repeated interviews. However, the departments had not been following the agreement. When it was followed it worked successfully, she stated. It provided accountability and collaboration across agencies. She explained as part of the DFYS training program, staff were required to do mock videotape interviews. However, funding was not available for regular on- going training. Ms. Chase suggested a collaborative effort with the Department of Public Safety to train interviewers because both departments approached the interview with a case plan in mind. She also cited more evidence training was needed and again suggested a collaborate effort with the Department of Public Safety. She alleged when the agreement was being used it was helpful for the victims and for training. However, she stated, she was opposed to mandating the process. She cited DFYS social workers requested to use an audiotape during an interview, but the resources were not available to audiotape every case. She agreed a phasing-in approach was best to determine the pit falls, additional expenses, problems, and benefits associated with this type of effort. Number 1535 CHAIR JAMES said she would like to read the multi-department agreement Ms. Chase referenced. She wondered if there were parts of the agreement that could be put into a statute. Number 1565 REPRESENTATIVE SCOTT OGAN apologized for not being at the last meeting where HB 348 was discussed and asked what the problem was the committee was trying to solve. Number 1580 CHAIR JAMES replied the bill was intended to minimize false accusations and provide accountability. She said an audio/videotape interview would protect both sides and provide evidence. She visualized the tape would be available in the event the allegation was challenged. Furthermore, based on department testimony, the tape provided an additional training component. Number 1771 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN wondered if an audiotape would be less stressful for the child. CHAIR JAMES replied HB 348 required either a video or audiotape. She said the sticky issue was mandating the interview in the event something went awry. She cited there was the possibility of a one- way mirror interview room so the video camera did not interfere during the interview. Number 1813 REPRESENTATIVE BRIAN PORTER referred the work session members to a protocol document published in 1987. It mentioned the prudence of video/audiotaping of interviews and sharing it with other agencies to prevent repeated interviews. It also supported the notion a recording was needed for critical interviews. He suggested recirculating the document and referring to it in a statute. He stated it would be tragic to mandate an interview and not have the necessary technical equipment. Number 1882 CHAIR JAMES said she was already convinced the technical aspect was a problem. Number 1885 REPRESENTATIVE ROBINSON commented she felt better because everyone agreed mandating an interview was a problem. However, the established protocol needed to be encouraged again. She cited it started under the Sheffield Administration and was reexamined again under the Cowper Administration. The concept was to provide accountability between the departments, provide joint training when possible, and minimize the trauma to the children and the families. She wondered about the status of a project in Anchorage at Providence Hospital. Number 1978 MS. CHASE responded the project Representative Robinson referred to was to interview child sexual abuse allegations only. The plan was to start in two month so next year data would be available. She further responded DFYS tried several years ago to establish a competency based training curriculum to show proficiency skills. However, the funds were not secured. There was initial training for new staff, but not on-going training. She further said the Department of Education was the missing link in the agreement to provide accountability at the schools. Number 2109 CHAIR JAMES said a school teacher was the most important occupation. She cited she was a parent for 19 foster children and therefore had the opportunity to deal with individuals in the social service field. She said some were good and some were bad and suggested additional training would have made things easier. She stated she received bad advice and saw the consequences in the children. She cited one of her foster children took her life as a result of bad advice. Number 2185 REPRESENTATIVE ROBINSON wondered how quickly the departments could review and update the protocol to activate it again. She also wondered what type of legislation would be necessary to ensure accountability through the different Administrations. CHAIR JAMES mentioned Kimberly Homme, Special Assistant to the Commissioner, Department of Education, was present in the audience. Number 2222 JAYNE ANDREEN, Executive Director, Council on Domestic Violence and Sexual Assault, Department of Public Safety, said the Council was responsible for the protocol report, and as a result of Representative Robinson's bringing to her attention the fact the report had not been reviewed since 1987, it was now part of the work plan. She said it could be expanded to include all abuse and neglect. Number 2260 CHAIR JAMES said it was her understanding the other abuse and neglect was more controversial than sexual abuse. She further said the family and the love of a parent were very important and splitting a family was a serious action. Parents loved their children, and children loved their parents, even when there was abuse. She stated biological ties were stronger than recognized and experienced it first hand as a foster parent. Number 2328 MS. WORLEY responded the agreement needed to be broadened to coordinate all of the efforts for families and children to ensure their needs were met. Number 2392 MS. CHASE said the agreement needed to be required rather than encouraged. Number 2442 CHAIR JAMES suggested a working group to monitor and recommend new methods. She stated there were changes and new ideas everyday warranting a watchdog group. TAPE 96-13, SIDE B Number 0045 REPRESENTATIVE ROBINSON replied an easy watchdog agency would be the Council on Domestic Violence and Sexual Assault because it was a group comprised of commissioner designees from the Department of Education, the Department of Health and Social Services, the Department of Public Safety, and three public members appointed by the Governor. She reiterated it would be an easy agency that already existed to give that authority to. Number 0075 CHAIR JAMES said she would rather have a more gender neutral group, because, currently, the focus was on the protection of women and children. Number 0087 REPRESENTATIVE ROBINSON said the members were a mixture of men and women. The Council was established under the Department of Public Safety to emphasize the criminal aspect of domestic violence. She reiterated the Council was an already existing group, and it was not the program making the determination, but the Commissioners of the agencies under the group. Number 0125 CHAIR JAMES said she saw it more as a women's issue than a family issue, and was concerned the Council would lose its credibility by expanding into other areas. Number 0167 REPRESENTATIVE JOE GREEN wondered about the reporting of child abuse in general. He questioned why there was such an increase in child abuse, and wondered if it was due to the reporting, the times, or the methods. Number 0252 CHAIR JAMES replied it was a combination of all three of the things Representative Green mentioned. She stated it was a different world now. She said there were problems then but they were not recognized. She further said the economy was bad, and drugs and alcohol were more prevalent. She also cited the reporting was more intense now. Number 0283 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER responded the problems have not changed, but the attitudes and education about the problems have changed. He recalled years ago receiving information about alleged abuse but it was abhorrent to discuss it. Number 0322 CHAIR JAMES said it was costly to address the issue for families and society. Number 0330 REPRESENTATIVE ROBINSON replied society had come a long way. She said Alaska was ahead of many parts of the country because the legislature saw fit to establish the Council on Domestic Violence and Sexual Assault. She said Alaska was ranked number one in the nation due to the transient and young population in domestic violence. She also cited there were more places to get help from today which contributed to the increase in cases reported. Number 0420 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER cited his experience with an advocacy group many years ago that feared the justice system and did not cooperate with law enforcement. Consequently, it resulted in protocols established throughout the system, and now agencies and law enforcement work closely together. CHAIR JAMES announced Rich Calamari was listening via teleconference in Valdez. Number 0474 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN wondered why Alaska ranked high statistically when it had the best programs in the country. He wondered if there were micro areas in the country to compare to. Number 0530 MS. CHASE replied, yes, there was a report just released that looked at programs across the U.S. She further stated until the federal child abuse and neglect prevention treatment act was passed in the late 1970's there was not a mechanism for victims to report incidents of abuse. She said Alaska was one of the first states to develop an effective reporting approach. In the report other states showed low incidences of abuse, but in the case of Pennsylvania, for example, it did not recognize neglect until recently, skewing the numbers. Number 0604 CHAIR JAMES said she remembered when the federal act went into effect. She stated people knew of abuse but would not say anything for fear of being sued. The federal act gave amnesty and required doctors and teachers to report suspected cases of abuse. She said it went too far when anonymous people could report suspected cases which resulted in negative unintended consequences. Number 0725 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN wondered if there was a way to treat the cause and not the symptom. He said the child was not guilty in the case of abuse, the adult was guilty. Number 0735 CHAIR JAMES cited a case on television in Michigan where the focus was to try and keep a family together. The family received treatment and ten years later were still together. She also cited a foster girl abused by her father who still had a good father- daughter relationship which was hard for her to accept. Number 0850 REPRESENTATIVE ROBINSON explained the high level of alcoholism in Alaska also contributed to the problem of abuse. She further explained the abuse usually occurred within the family, and the children just wanted the abuse to stop and not for the family to break-up. She further explained there was a shift towards giving power to the victim. She stated all these issues created a major policy change. Number 0948 CHAIR JAMES stated there was a focused agreement among the work session members, and suggested appointing a few people to work on a committee substitute incorporating a phasing period and trial area. She called for volunteers. The following individuals volunteered: Representatives Robinson, Porter and James; Yvonne Chase; Diane Worley; Del Smith and/or Lt. Stockard. CHAIR JAMES announced she was pleased with the work session today. Number 1065 MS. WORLEY said she felt great and thanked Chair James for organizing the work session. ADJOURNMENT CHAIR JAMES adjourned the work session.