HOUSE RULES STANDING COMMITTEE February 4, 1997 5:09 p.m. MEMBERS PRESENT Representative Pete Kott, Chairman Representative Irene Nicholia Representative Al Vezey Representative Gail Phillips Representative Brian Porter Representative Bill Williams Representative Kim Elton MEMBERS ABSENT All members present COMMITTEE CALENDAR Continuation of January 31, 1997, meeting: Select Committee on Legislative Ethics Decision H 96-02 PREVIOUS ACTION No previous action to record ACTION NARRATIVE TAPE 97-7, SIDE A Number 0001 CHAIRMAN PETE KOTT called the House Rules Standing Committee meeting back to order at 5:09 p.m. All members were present. Number 0057 CHAIRMAN KOTT: We have a quorum to conduct business. We will resume the hearing on the ethics case against Representative Sanders. Just to recap -- last Friday when we concluded and went into recess, it was the opinion of the Chair that this committee rejected that the conclusions of the Ethics Committee regarding the statutes that were in violation, that we did, however, concur that there was a level of noncompliance - or at least noncooperation by Representative Sanders - and we were at the point of addressing, per the statute, whether or not sanctions are in order. Since you've had the weekend plus one day to at least give this matter additional consideration, we'll open it up at this point for discussion. Representative Porter. Number 0123 REPRESENTATIVE BRIAN PORTER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think where we were was at a point of, as you've mentioned, determining what kinds of sanctions that the committee wants to recommend to the full body and I have prepared a motion that kind of incorporates everything that we've done to date and some recommended sanctions. I think before I make the motion, I'd like to say that as in any sanction, part of the sanction obviously recognizes the actions of the person that is being sanctioned and it also serves to give notice, if you will, to anyone else who might be considering that kind of action or behavior. Number 0189 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER: And it is with that in mind that I make the following motion. That the Rules Committee forward the following recommendations to the full body of the House: That as to the charges presented by the Ethics Committee, that Charge 1, Charge 2, and Charge 3, which basically were the findings that Representative Sanders violated AS 24.06.030(a)(2), (a)(5), and (b), [AS 24.60.030(a)(2), (a)(5) , and (b)] that those findings not be sustained; that the finding of the Ethics Committee that there was a violation in terms of lack of cooperation in AS 24.61.070(k) be sustained; and that the sanctions recommended to the full body by this committee be the following: A thousand dollar fine to be paid to the Legislative Affairs Agency; that Representative Sanders be precluded from out-of-state travel for the calendar year of 1997; that Representative Sanders take his office allowance account as the nonaccountable personal income by the nonaccountable personal income option; that Representative Sanders attend ethics training; and that Representative Sanders post a copy of the ethics statutes in his office for he and his staff. And for the information of the committee, it's my understanding that the last three of these have been accomplished already by the Representative. CHAIRMAN KOTT: Does that conclude your motion? There is a motion before us. Is there objection? Number 0338 REPRESENTATIVE AL VEZEY: Object. CHAIRMAN KOTT: Object for the purpose of discussion. Representative Vezey. REPRESENTATIVE VEZEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My first question is, couldn't we just simplify it and say that we find that Representative Sanders did not violate the Ethics Act? I mean, do we -- necessary to have all the legalese in there? REPRESENTATIVE PORTER: I was just referring to the specific charges and -- I'm not hung up on it, but ... Number 0378 REPRESENTATIVE VEZEY: I -- it just -- a comment. My other comment I'd like to make is in the last three recommended sanctions, I think can be categorized as a proverbial slap on the wrist which I can't say is out of line. I do have a problem with recommending a thousand dollar fine. You have to remember we've already found that he wasn't guilty of a violation of the Ethics Act for which he was drug through the legal system, and it kind of gets -- it may be because of my experience as -- the last 25 years in dealing with the legal system, but the idea that we have a system of justice where you're innocent until you're proven guilty, is a total myth in this country. That only applies to criminal law and it only applies in cases where the court is obligated to furnish you with an attorney. In matters involving civil or tort issues, the court is not obligated to furnish you with an attorney and you are not afforded the privilege of remaining silent. Number 0483 REPRESENTATIVE VEZEY: I determined a long time ago that the system of law that dominants in this country is that you are innocent until proven broke at which time you can only accept whatever plea bargain that the court and the prosecuting agency will allow you to accept. And this is a situation, I think, that Representative Sanders was finding himself being railroaded into. If there is a guilty party here, it is the legislature. We are the ones that failed to enact a comprehensible Act for the Ethics Commission to follow; we are the ones that failed to give a clear answer to proposed guidelines, which (indisc.) strong (indisc.) opinion that we have rejected those guidelines and sent them back. However, you know, we did not vote on them - they died through lack of action. You know, if we're going to find fault and blame here, it really falls on the others of us equally as much as it does on Representative Sanders. However, I also know that every day that this goes on is like a porcupine quill in Representative Sanders' side and he'd probably just as soon quit wrestling with that porcupine. And it may be that he would gladly pay a thousand dollars to see all this suffering end. I know, at a certain point it sounds like a very cheap remedy. But I do have a problem that I do think that his lack of cooperation was not in the interest of this legislature, I do not think it reflected well on this legislature, but then I can't fault him for taking that opossum tactic, if you -- if you might wish -- but I do think that the other members of the committee have also evaluated this and we're not going to be able to come up with the solution that each of us thinks is proper -- that it is -- whatever we recommend is going to be a committee decision. And for that reason, if the other members of the committee think that this is appropriate, I will concur. But I do have an objection to the fact that we are recommending in this motion a fine for a person that really had no choice in being a part of this process. CHAIRMAN KOTT: Representative Porter. Number 0643 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER: Mr. Chairman, if -- if I may respond. I -- I agree with an awful lot of what Representative Vezey said. I guess just a point of clarification, I do feel that it would be inappropriate to say in the motion that he committed no violation of the Ethics law because the -- the law that allows the committee to consider cooperation actually goes further to say that - and I'm quoting out of 24.60.165 -- no I'm not either -- I'm quoting out of 24.60.170(k), "If the committee finds a violation or lack of cooperation by the subject, the decision shall recommend what sections -- what sanctions, if any, the committee believes are appropriate." I don't think that that says that the committee may only find lack of cooperation if they find guilt, which they did, but we're not. I think it does indicate a requirement to consider that there is a different standard, and especially from a criminal case, that the standard for legislatures should be that they cooperate with investigations and as we've already found, that wasn't the case. CHAIRMAN KOTT: Further discussion? Representative Elton. Number 0759 REPRESENTATIVE KIM ELTON: Thanks, Mr. Chairman. I'll begin by saying I think the staff did an exceptional job on the first three and one-half pages and it was only after that that I -- I began to have a problem. I don't know what I'm going to do on the motion in front of us. I mean, the motion in front of us reaffirms our finding of Friday by -- if I understood the motion correctly -- by reiterating that this committee did not find a violation in the three items that were outlined by the Ethics Subcommittee. Speaking to that portion of the motion, just very briefly -- I mean, I still have a problem and I just want to reiterate the problem that I have -- that defining a political straw poll as well as defining a party convention a nongovernmental function is beyond me. I mean, I do think that is -- those are two terms - political straw polls and party conventions - are two terms that can define what nongovernmental really is. Number 0843 REPRESENTATIVE ELTON: I'm also -- just want to make it clear that further back in the memo prepared by staff to the committee, that -- it's on page 7 in the top paragraph -- I just want to point out that it's true that as indicated, Representative Sanders at the time in question, was not a declared candidate, was not engaging in normal campaign activities, and had not even decided whether he was going to run in the next election. I'd just like to point out as all of us are aware, that whether or not you're a declared candidate, whether or not you've made up your mind to be a declared candidate, there is still an impulse to cover all your bases. And -- and that is a political impulse. That is not a legislative (indisc.--coughing). Number 0894 REPRESENTATIVE ELTON: And then finally in -- in wrap up on my comments on the motion, I'd just like to point out that we're essentially finding something here that -- that even Representative Sanders didn't find, and that is that there was no guilt as charged. And I'd -- I'd just like to reread in the portion of the minutes on page 19 where Representative Sanders did say, "I must ask all of you to keep in mind that if this Ethics Committee can spend twenty-four thousand to do this to me over a seventy two dollar technical violation, they can do it to anybody." I mean, (indisc.) that he saw a technical violation. With those comments, I think it's now going to be difficult for me to figure out how to vote on this motion. Mr. Chair, just a quick question. I'm assuming that with this motion before us, that this -- the results of this motion will be the only thing forwarded to all members of the House from the Rules Committee? There will not -- the Rules Committee will not forward the recommendation from the Ethics Subcommittee? Number 0961 CHAIRMAN KOTT: That's correct. It's my intent to forward the recommendations from this committee, per the statute requirements, to the full House. At that point, the full House can then accept, reject or modify. Representative Porter. Number 0980 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER: Well, I was going to say I think that the -- most certainly, that the recommendations of the Ethics Committee are available to every member of the House and anyone that doesn't have one can certainly get one from my office, if they so choose. Number 0990 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER: I had not crafted this motion with the idea that I would create the dilemma that I can see I created. I would not be opposed to splitting the motion, or amending the motion really to just the sanctions, so that you can consider just the sanctions, if you'd like, and then the vote on really the two other issues -- finding of not sustaining the first three charges, of sustaining the fourth -- your vote's on record on that. Number 1022 REPRESENTATIVE ELTON: Mr. Chair, I -- I mean, I appreciate the suggestion. I think -- I think it works not just for this committee but I'd encourage the committee to think of doing -- of keeping it separate for the members of the House because otherwise -- this has been a confusing issue to those of us who have spent an awful lot of time on it already. And -- and I mean, I'm just concerned if we bundle the motion the way it's presented, that when people try to assess what happened on the floor, they're not going to be able to assess whether the nay vote was a nay because sanctions were too strict, or was a nay vote because they didn't believe that (indisc.) in the finding of innocence. Number 1059 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER: Mr. Chairman ... CHAIRMAN KOTT: Representative Porter. REPRESENTATIVE PORTER: With the permission of the committee then, I would amend my motion to exclude the first two portions of the motion -- basically that we repeat the motion that we had before and that the motion would only contain a motion that we recommend the following sanctions on our previous determination that Representative Sanders was responsible - or the allegation of his failure to cooperate was sustained - and then list the five sanctions that I mentioned. CHAIRMAN KOTT: Does everybody understand the new motion? Is there objection? REPRESENTATIVE PORTER: To the new motion. CHAIRMAN KOTT: To the new motion. Number 1113 CHAIRMAN KOTT: I'm gonna object just for the purpose of you repeating the (indisc.) clarification the issue dealing with posting of the statutes. REPRESENTATIVE PORTER: The fifth recommendation was that Representative post a copy of the ethics statutes in his office for his staff. Number 1145 CHAIRMAN KOTT: I wonder if you would consider a friendly amendment to that - by posting a copy of the existing ethics statutes that are related to failure to cooperate - in the office because that's really what we are sanctioning here is the failure to cooperate and posting all the statutes related to the ethics area would probably not be self-serving. REPRESENTATIVE PORTER: Well, that's a pretty limited (indisc.) -- that's a pretty limited posting. I don't think that -- I don't think we're finding the staff guilty of not cooperating, we're finding Representative Sanders and the thought may be there that between three people on the staff and himself all of the inclusions would be retained and future problems would be reduced. CHAIRMAN KOTT: I'm a little more optimistic. I'm hoping there'll be no future problems, but I'll withdraw my objection. Again, the motion is before us to forward the (indisc.) mentioned sanctions to the full House for Representative Sanders' failure to cooperate. Is there objection? Number 1221 REPRESENTATIVE VEZEY: I'll object. CHAIRMAN KOTT: Representative Vezey. REPRESENTATIVE VEZEY: I won't repeat my -- my comments. I -- I just -- I think -- I'm interested in hearing what the committee has to say about these proposed sanctions. Only myself and Representative Porter have commented -- well, I'm sorry, Representative Elton has commented, but he was commenting about the first part. I don't think he was commenting about the sanctions. I do think that a thousand dollar fine is -- is really inappropriate here. I'd say that there are three guilty parties - the legislature in whole, the Ethics Commission was negligent in not researching out the impact of a Presidential Primary on the state of Alaska, and I -- I think that also Representative Sanders was negligent - but I don't know that he should be singled out to pay a fine. CHAIRMAN KOTT: Further comments? Representative Elton. Number 1278 REPRESENTATIVE ELTON: Thanks, Mr. Chair. I find myself in the awkward position of -- of being put in a position of agreeing with the Ethics Committee wants and then disagreeing with them on the matter of sanctions because -- because this -- and I think that the thousand dollar fine portion is a significant change from what the Ethics Committee itself recommended and -- and I guess it seems odd that I am arguing that we listen to the Ethics Committee on the finding of guilt and yet go further than what the Ethics Committee recommends in the matter of sanctions. But -- but I do think that - and I have said this before - that I think the violation of the statutes that I found and one other member of this body found was what -- what I would call a technical violation. The majority of this committee didn't find it a violation at all but -- and I certainly didn't find it an egregious -- an egregious violation. And -- and because I assumed that the sanctions were attached to that technical violation, I was comfortable with the sanctions as they were. I do think that I'm -- I'm going to support the sanctions as recommended in this motion simply because I think the behavior -- the -- the question of lack of cooperation did send this whole issue involving H 96-02 spinning somewhat out of control and -- and so I think that the enhanced sanction with the fine in this case may be appropriate. Number 1375 CHAIRMAN KOTT: I certainly appreciate your comments. I somewhat agree with what you articulated there. We do have the motion before us to forward the recommendations of this committee, as far as sanctions based on Representative Sanders' ability to cooperate, to the full House. Are there further items of discussion? Representative Vezey are you still maintaining your objection? Number 1408 REPRESENTATIVE VEZEY: Yes, I'd like a chance to vote. CHAIRMAN KOTT: Representative Nicholia. Number 1417 REPRESENTATIVE IRENE NICHOLIA: Thank you, Chairman Kott. I just have a question. It sounds like a blanket vote here -- I'm -- I'm not sure -- are we going to be dividing all these different sanctions? Are we going to vote on each one of them? Or are we just going to vote on this as a blanket? I'm trying to figure out what you're doing here. CHAIRMAN KOTT: It's my understanding that the motion before us is one that includes all the sanctions collectively. It is one motion that addresses the sanctions that were identified by Representative Porter. We are not dividing the question unless you wish to do so. (Indisc.) we are taking them up as a whole. REPRESENTATIVE NICHOLIA: Okay. Can you repeat those sanctions real quickly? CHAIRMAN KOTT: Representative Porter. Number 1460 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER: A thousand dollar fine to be paid to the Legislative Affairs Agency. No out-of-state travel for calendar year of 97. To take his -- he'd be required to take his office allowance (indisc.) nonaccountable personal income option rather than the accountable. Attending the ethics training that he did attend, which is just merely giving him credit I think for that, and the posting of the statutes in his office. REPRESENTATIVE GAIL PHILLIPS: Which he has done, also. REPRESENTATIVE PORTER: I think he has. REPRESENTATIVE NICHOLIA: Just one more question. CHAIRMAN KOTT: Representative Nicholia. REPRESENTATIVE NICHOLIA: One of the findings and sanctions was to include the staff to go to the ethics training ... REPRESENTATIVE PHILLIPS: They did. REPRESENTATIVE NICHOLIA: ... and they all did? CHAIRMAN KOTT: It's my understanding they've already completed that, as well. REPRESENTATIVE NICHOLIA: Thanks. Number 1512 CHAIRMAN KOTT: Further discussion? On the motion itself, Representative Porter, did you have in mind any dates for compliance? At least on the ones that would be subject to (indisc.) date. REPRESENTATIVE PORTER: About the only thing I could think of would be the fine and I'm really not aware of his financial situation so ... I guess I would say that the sanctions must be completed by the end of this session. Number 1566 CHAIRMAN KOTT: Okay, so that's an amendment -- friendly amendment to your original motion that deals with the thousand dollar fine to be paid by Representative Sanders to Legislative Affairs by the end of the current legislative session. Is there objection to that friendly amendment? Is there objection? REPRESENTATIVE NICHOLIA: None. I have a question. Through the Chair ... CHAIRMAN KOTT: You object for the purposes of a question ... REPRESENTATIVE NICHOLIA: Well, okay ... CHAIRMAN KOTT: ... on this matter or on another matter? REPRESENTATIVE NICHOLIA: On another matter. CHAIRMAN KOTT: Okay, hearing no objection to the friendly amendment then, it is adopted. Representative Nicholia. Number 1584 REPRESENTATIVE NICHOLIA: Thank you, Chairman. The question I have is can you explain why you didn't include the one sanction that Representative Sanders must be stripped of any committee chair positions he may hold? REPRESENTATIVE PORTER: I think that the fine supersedes probably all of those recommendations and I don't draw any connections between the sanction of his chairmanship -- or between his chairmanship and the failure to cooperate. (Indisc.) doesn't follow that that would be a logical sanction for failure to cooperate. Number 1621 CHAIRMAN KOTT: I think that was discussed at the last meeting that there wasn't no nexus between that particular area of (indisc.) particular committee and what we're finding him guilty of, if you will. Further comments? Okay, there's a motion before us, there's an objection. Would the committee secretary please call the roll. COMMITTEE SECRETARY: Representative Vezey? REPRESENTATIVE VEZEY. No. REPRESENTATIVE NICHOLIA: Just a minute could I ... CHAIRMAN KOTT: Please void the roll. Representative Nicholia. Number 1650 REPRESENTATIVE NICHOLIA: One more question. Did you go and check the list of -- in making sure that all the members and staff members of Representative Sanders was at the ethics training? CHAIRMAN KOTT: Personally, I did not. REPRESENTATIVE NICHOLIA: Okay, I guess maybe we should probably amend that then, that if there are any -- any staff members that hadn't taken the training, that they should. REPRESENTATIVE PORTER: I think I'm happy with the motion the way it is. If she'd like to make that motion, I would object. Number 1680 REPRESENTATIVE NICHOLIA: Motion made. CHAIRMAN KOTT: Is that a motion? REPRESENTATIVE NICHOLIA responded affirmatively. CHAIRMAN KOTT: So you have a motion to amend the existing motion to include all members of Representative's staff to ... REPRESENTATIVE NICHOLIA: Take that ethics training. CHAIRMAN KOTT: ... participate in the ethics training. And there is an objection? Number 1693 REPRESENTATIVE VEZEY: I want an inquiry. I thought that's what the sanction said -- the motion before us said -- and the amendment seems to be just restating it. The sanction said that Representative Sanders and his staff will attend ethics training. Number 1706 CHAIRMAN KOTT: Point of clarification. Representative Porter. REPRESENTATIVE PORTER: The motion was that Representative Sanders attend the ethics training. The question was asked whether his staff had and I think that the answer to that, we guess, is yes. But again, the Ethics Committee did not sanction the staff, so I reject the idea of putting some sanction requirements on staff people who are found guilty of nothing. REPRESENTATIVE NICHOLIA: They -- they did write that in the sanctions. It was included that the staff members attend ... REPRESENTATIVE PORTER: I'm rejecting that finding. If you want to make the motion, go ahead. REPRESENTATIVE NICHOLIA: I did. I made the motion. Number 1736 CHAIRMAN KOTT: Okay, so there is an amendment to the motion that would require Representative Sanders' staff to also participate in the ethics training. There is an objection. Would the secretary please call the roll. COMMITTEE SECRETARY: Representative Phillips? REPRESENTATIVE PHILLIPS: No. COMMITTEE SECRETARY: Representative Porter? REPRESENTATIVE PORTER: No. COMMITTEE SECRETARY: Representative Williams? REPRESENTATIVE WILLIAMS: No. COMMITTEE SECRETARY: Representative Elton? REPRESENTATIVE ELTON: Yes. COMMITTEE SECRETARY: Representative Nicholia? REPRESENTATIVE NICHOLIA: Yes. COMMITTEE SECRETARY: Representative Vezey? REPRESENTATIVE VEZEY: No. COMMITTEE SECRETARY: Chairman Kott? CHAIRMAN KOTT: No. Number 1760 CHAIRMAN KOTT: The motion fails which brings us again back to the original motion. There is an objection to the original motion. Would the secretary please call the roll. COMMITTEE SECRETARY: Representative Porter? REPRESENTATIVE PORTER: Yes. COMMITTEE SECRETARY: Representative Williams? REPRESENTATIVE WILLIAMS: Yes. COMMITTEE SECRETARY: Representative Elton? REPRESENTATIVE ELTON: Yes. COMMITTEE SECRETARY: Representative Nicholia? REPRESENTATIVE NICHOLIA: Yes. COMMITTEE SECRETARY: Representative Vezey? REPRESENTATIVE VEZEY: No. COMMITTEE SECRETARY: Representative Phillips? REPRESENTATIVE PHILLIPS: Yes. COMMITTEE SECRETARY: Chairman Kott? CHAIRMAN KOTT: Yes. The motion was carried ... Number 1790 REPRESENTATIVE VEZEY: Mr. Chairman. CHAIRMAN KOTT: Representative Vezey. REPRESENTATIVE VEZEY: I'd like to change my vote from nay to yea. CHAIRMAN KOTT: Would the secretary please reflect that. I believe that at the previous meeting we did also include a motion that was related to the original sanctions -- or the original violations statute that we rejected and that motion -- results of that vote will also be forwarded in the minutes to the full House. I want to thank everybody. Is there any further comments? Representative Elton. Number 1816 REPRESENTATIVE ELTON: Well, this is a (indisc.) especially appropriate question I think for you, Chairman Kott, but do you know when this will be scheduled for the floor? CHAIRMAN KOTT: I anticipate no delay in bringing this before the House as early as tomorrow - during the floor session would be most appropriate in my opinion. REPRESENTATIVE ELTON: I -- just a comment, Chairman Kott -- I mean, I think that my concern I have with it going tomorrow is that we were handed this packet early this afternoon -- like -- I can tell you that even though I was familiar with a lot of it, it - it was kind of intimidating to get back to my office at three in the afternoon. I -- I think it may be a little bit intimidating to many of the other members who haven't had - I was about the say the privilege of sitting in with us through all this process - this is an awful lot to give them and -- and ask them to come to the floor prepared tomorrow. So, I'd ask of you to consider that and to consider scheduling it perhaps for Friday to give the other members who haven't been here an opportunity to get through all this. CHAIRMAN KOTT: Representative Williams. Number 1876 REPRESENTATIVE BILL WILLIAMS: I know how intimidating it is, you know, I think this has more or less put all of the legislature on record and they certainly had the opportunity to be here or be on Gavel to Gavel watching this. I -- I'd like to take care of this as soon as possible, Mr. Chairman. CHAIRMAN KOTT: Thank you for your comments, Representative Williams. I would concur that certainly from the public's perspective, they've had an opportunity to view the activity of this committee over the last six or seven days. Everybody in this body had an opportunity to participate in the audience, listen in, or to view it on Gavel to Gavel in their offices. It's my understanding that the minutes were on BASIS almost on a daily basis, as I've conferred with House Records to ensure that occurred. I think there's been ample opportunity for those who wanted any kind of information regarding this matter. It is not my intent to provide every member of this House a copy of the minutes. The minutes are, again, on BASIS and in my opinion, I agree with Representative Williams that we should go forward and get this matter off our plate and get on to other business of the state. Number 1940 CHAIRMAN KOTT: We'll take a brief at-ease. CHAIRMAN KOTT: ... reconvening at 6:10 and on page 10 you will find essentially the sanctions that this committee recommended, send forward to the full House and give you each a minute or two to look them over. REPRESENTATIVE PHILLIPS: We should just sign one, though. CHAIRMAN KOTT: Ya, (indisc.) the original. Representative Williams. Number 1991 REPRESENTATIVE WILLIAMS: Just for clarification, we are a committee, you know, and what I've seen in the past with our committees is just to sign a little sheet saying that we do pass or don't pass ... REPRESENTATIVE PORTER: Just a regular committee pass out thing that allows them to say amend or ... REPRESENTATIVE WILLIAMS: ... no rec or ... CHAIRMAN KOTT: Well, we're gonna do this pretty much the same way they do confirmations. You just sign - it's not an indication of how you're going to vote on the floor, but you're signing off that you concurred (indisc.) being forwarded. REPRESENTATIVE PORTER: Are you (indisc.--paper shuffling) present it? CHAIRMAN KOTT: On the House floor? That would be up to membership. (Indisc.) membership can accept, reject or modify the recommendations by this committee. If -- Representative Elton. Number 2045 REPRESENTATIVE ELTON: Mr. Chair, thanks. Just a point of clarification on page 10. I'm assuming that on number 2 -- sanction recommended for number 2 -- before the end of the current legislative session means the First Session of the Twentieth Legislature and ... Okay. CHAIRMAN KOTT: Ya, I think that's an accurate assumption. REPRESENTATIVE WILLIAMS: In May of this year. REPRESENTATIVE PHILLIPS: That's what I assumed that to be ... Number 2067 CHAIRMAN KOTT: To make this (indisc. - coughing), I would entertain a motion then to move this report as written to the full House for their consideration. And if you would like to indicate next to your name whether or not you want to indicate a do pass, do not pass, or amend, that's certainly your prerogative. If you want to make a comment that's - that's certainly appropriate. REPRESENTATIVE PORTER: But you want just one document with everybody's signature? CHAIRMAN KOTT: That's correct. REPRESENTATIVE PORTER: Just one document? Okay. I would so move then, Mr. Chair. CHAIRMAN KOTT: Okay, there is a motion to move this document forward to the full House. Is there objection? Seeing none, that will be accomplished. I might also indicate on page 11 of the document, the last paragraph does contain a provision whereby the Rules Committee will forward an amendment -- an attachment to this and that attachment will include any of the items of interest that you feel is in need of being reviewed, so far as -- so far as we're going to take a close look at the ethics statute -- so if you have any recommendations that you would like to see included in this attachment that will also be forwarded, please notify my office and we'll make sure that it gets in there. Again, this is just an attachment for the - for the House, to let them know we are looking at certain issues and there were certain issues that have come to our attention during the proceedings. And you do have a copy of that attachment already -- the previous materials passed out. If anybody needs a copy or it's been misplaced, please see my office staff and we'll make sure you have a current copy. REPRESENTATIVE PORTER: Do you want to use that one as the ... CHAIRMAN KOTT: (Indisc.) the original, George. We'll use this one as the original. REPRESENTATIVE ELTON: (Indisc.) next to mine. CHAIRMAN KOTT: I know it's an unusual process, but then again, this is the first time we've had to dispense with this kind of a matter. Representative Nicholia. Number 2170 REPRESENTATIVE NICHOLIA: Chairman Kott, is that legal to attach that to this? I mean, it seems like that wasn't what -- I mean, it seems like the only thing that was really supposed to be in this file was just -- the violation. Is that a normal procedure to attach something like that to this or is it -- is it even legal to do that? Number 2188 CHAIRMAN KOTT: Well, certainly if it weren't legal, we wouldn't be doing it. REPRESENTATIVE NICHOLIA: So, you did get a legal opinion on it? CHAIRMAN KOTT: I'm fairly sure that we can attach an amendment or an addendum, if you will, to this document which would then indicate to the House that there were other issues - or at least some of the issues that we've dealt with during the preceding seven days or so - have been addressed and we believe they warrant further consideration. Representative Porter. Number 2209 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER: Mr. Chairman, I don't know if they're already on the list but if they're not -- I think if we can't obtain them, at least we should reference the compilation of suggestions that the Ethics Committee itself has should be looked at, also. Number 2220 REPRESENTATIVE PHILLIPS: They -- Mr. Chairman, they're meeting this afternoon. They had a meeting for about two hours just on the revisions they are going to start -- to put together to forward for changes. CHAIRMAN KOTT: Okay. If those -- if those are not available, it'd be referenced that there are additional considerations forthcoming from the Ethics Committee themselves, and what they believe are important areas to clean up. I know they've been troubled with many of the same kinds of things that we've been troubled with over the last six - seven days. Number 2242 CHAIRMAN KOTT: I want to thank everybody for your indulgence over the last week. It's been tough. I know all of us spent a lot of time reviewing the documents, reviewing the minutes in some cases, and trying to understand the intent of the law. I appreciate everyone that have devoted their time, and I might add that everyone was in attendance throughout the entire hearing and it is greatly appreciated. I think the public expects us to be here in attendance and certainly we met that expectation. So, with that - unless there are further comments - we will adjourn the Rules Committee hearing on 96-02. [Chairman Kott adjourned the House Rules Standing Committee at 6:17 p.m.}