ALASKA STATE LEGISLATURE  HOUSE RESOURCES STANDING COMMITTEE  May 3, 2002 1:10 p.m. MEMBERS PRESENT Representative Beverly Masek, Co-Chair Representative Drew Scalzi, Co-Chair Representative Hugh Fate, Vice Chair Representative Joe Green Representative Lesil McGuire Representative Gary Stevens Representative Mary Kapsner Representative Beth Kerttula MEMBERS ABSENT  Representative Mike Chenault COMMITTEE CALENDAR HOUSE BILL NO. 529 "An Act exempting the use of munitions in certain areas from a waste disposal permit requirement of the Department of Environmental Conservation." - MOVED CSHB 529(RES) OUT OF COMMITTEE HOUSE BILL NO. 527 "An Act relating to entry into the Minto Flats State Game Refuge for purposes of exploration and development of oil and gas resources." - MOVED HB 527 OUT OF COMMITTEE CONFIRMATION HEARINGS Board of Game J. Dana Pruhs - Anchorage George Matz - Anchorage Caleb Pungowiyi - Kotzebue Bruce H. Baker - Auke Bay Michelle R. Sparck - Bethel - CONFIRMATIONS ADVANCED SENATE BILL NO. 371 "An Act exempting the use of munitions in certain areas from a waste disposal permit requirement of the Department of Environmental Conservation; relating to general or nationwide permits under the Alaska coastal management program and to authorizations and permits issued by the Alaska Oil and Gas Conservation Commission; and providing for an effective date." - SCHEDULED BUT NOT HEARD PREVIOUS ACTION BILL: HB 529 SHORT TITLE:PERMIT EXEMPTION FOR MUNITIONS USE SPONSOR(S): STATE AFFAIRS Jrn-Date Jrn-Page Action 05/01/02 3260 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS 05/01/02 3260 (H) RES 05/03/02 (H) RES AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 124 BILL: HB 527 SHORT TITLE:MINTO FLATS GAME REFUGE SPONSOR(S): RESOURCES Jrn-Date Jrn-Page Action 04/30/02 3238 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS 04/30/02 3238 (H) O&G, RES 05/02/02 (H) O&G AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 124 05/02/02 (H) Heard & Held -- Recessed to 5/3/02 8:00 am -- 05/02/02 (H) MINUTE(O&G) 05/03/02 3347 (H) O&G RPT 4DP 1NR 05/03/02 3347 (H) DP: KOHRING, DYSON, CHENAULT, FATE; 05/03/02 3347 (H) NR: GUESS 05/03/02 3347 (H) FN1: ZERO(DNR) 05/03/02 (H) O&G AT 8:00 AM CAPITOL 124 05/03/02 (H) Moved Out of Committee 05/03/02 (H) RES AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 124 WITNESS REGISTER RYNNIEVA MOSS, Staff to Representative John Coghill Alaska State Legislature Capitol Building, Room 102 Juneau, Alaska 99801 POSITION STATEMENT: Presented HB 529 of behalf of the House State Affairs Standing Committee, sponsor, which Representative Coghill chairs. STEVE CLEARY, Development Director Alaska Public Interest Research Group (AkPIRG); Organizer, Citizens Opposed to Defense Experimentation (CODE) P.O. Box 101093 Anchorage, Alaska 99510 POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in opposition to HB 529; suggested no agency should be above the law, particularly one responsible for six "Superfund" sites in Alaska that pose grave public health and safety hazards to Alaska and the wildlife that many people depend on. TOM CHAPPLE, Director Division of Air and Water Quality Department of Environmental Conservation 555 Cordova Street Anchorage, Alaska 99501 POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HB 529; clarified that nothing in this legislation is intended to or would change the Department of Environmental Conservation's responsibilities relative to addressing contamination. PAMELA MILLER, Biologist and Director Alaska Community Action on Toxics (ACAT) 135 Christensen Drive, Suite 100 Anchorage, Alaska 99501 POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in opposition to HB 529; noted that this lawsuit is designed to prevent further harm to the wildlife and human health in the Eagle River Flats, and to try to get the U.S. Army to clean up a very serious problem of more than 10,000 unexploded munitions that present a safety and toxicological hazard. LINDA FEILER P.O. Box 148 Anchor Point, Alaska 99556-0148 POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in opposition to HB 529 and HB 527. SUSAN SCHRADER Alaska Conservation Voters (ACV) P.O. Box 22151 Juneau, Alaska 99802 POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in opposition to HB 529; expressed concern that without the oversight provided by a permit system, the military's activities at artillery ranges such as Eagle River Flats will continue to cause degradation of water quality in wildlife habitat around the state. BOB SHAVELSON, Executive Director Cook Inlet Keeper P.O. Box 1498 Homer, Alaska 99603 POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in opposition to HB 529 and HB 527; suggested the U.S. can defend national security and protect the resources; suggested that [HB 527] is a bad precedent and that there need to be areas that simply remain dedicated to the purposes for which they were set aside. JENNIFER YUHAS, Staff to Representative Beverly Masek Alaska State Legislature Capitol Building, Room 128 Juneau, Alaska 99801 POSITION STATEMENT: Presented HB 527 on behalf of the House Resources Standing Committee, sponsor, which Representative Masek co-chairs. MARY JANE FATE 700 Gold Street Juneau, Alaska POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of HB 527; indicated it would benefit the economy and employment in the area. JIM DODSON, Executive Vice President Andex Resources LLC (No address provided) POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of HB 527; suggested the bill would clarify that the Nenana Basin is not "wholesale" off-limits to natural gas exploration, and put the Nenana Basin and the Minto Flats State Game Refuge in a similar position to other state game refuges in the state. MARK MYERS, Director Division of Oil and Gas Department of Natural Resources 550 West 7th Avenue, Suite 800 Anchorage Alaska, 99501 POSITION STATEMENT: Answered questions relating to HB 527. CHIP DENNERLEIN, Director Division of Habitat and Restoration Alaska Department of Fish & Game 333 Raspberry Road Anchorage, Alaska 99518-1579 POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony on HB 527; clarified the department's initial position regarding the bill. DAVID SHAW, Conservation Chair Arctic Audubon Society 3124 Goldhill Road Fairbanks, Alaska 99709 POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in opposition to HB 527; suggested the bill undermines the Alaska Department of Fish and Game's ability to limit exploration in the Minto Flats and also puts critical bird habitat in the path of oil and gas exploration. ROGER SIGLIN 169 Frog Pond Circle Fairbanks, Alaska 99712 POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in opposition to HB 527; suggested this [bill] should have been rejected once it was known the refuge would be the center of development. RUDY VETTER P.O. Box 70342 Fairbanks, Alaska 99707 POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of HB 527. J. DANA PRUHS, Appointee to the Board of Game 2431 Wellington Court Anchorage, Alaska 99517 POSITION STATEMENT: Testified as an appointee to the Board of Game; provided background information and answered questions. GEORGE MATZ, Appointee to the Board of Game 14345 Cody Circle Anchorage, Alaska 99516 POSITION STATEMENT: Testified as an appointee to the Board of Game; provided background information and answered questions. CALEB PUNGOWIYI, Appointee to the Board of Game P.O. Box 217 Kotzebue, Alaska 99752 POSITION STATEMENT: Testified as an appointee to the Board of Game; provided background information and answered questions. BRUCE H. BAKER, Appointee to the Board of Game P.O. Box 211384 Auke Bay, Alaska 99821 POSITION STATEMENT: Testified as an appointee to the Board of Game; provided background information and answered questions. MICHELLE R. SPARCK, Appointee to the Board of Game P.O. Box 267 Bethel, Alaska 99559 POSITION STATEMENT: Testified as an appointee to the Board of Game; provided background information and answered questions. ROSE ATUK-FOSDICK P.O. Box 1485 Nome, Alaska 99762 POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on the Board of Game confirmations; urged the committee to confirm the appointment of Mr. Pungowiyi and Ms. Sparck to the Board of Game. LORETTA BULLARD, President Kawerak Incorporated P.O. Box 1969 Nome, Alaska 99762 POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on the Board of Game confirmations; urged the committee to confirm the appointment of Mr. Pungowiyi and Ms. Sparck to the Board of Game. ACTION NARRATIVE TAPE 02-43, SIDE A Number 0001 CO-CHAIR BEVERLY MASEK called the House Resources Standing Committee meeting to order at 1:10 p.m. Representatives Masek, Scalzi, Fate, Green, Stevens, and Kapsner were present at the call to order. Representatives McGuire and Kerttula arrived as the meeting was in progress. HB 529-PERMIT EXEMPTION FOR MUNITIONS USE [Contains discussion of SB 356, the companion bill] CO-CHAIR MASEK announced that the first order of business would be HOUSE BILL NO. 529, "An Act exempting the use of munitions in certain areas from a waste disposal permit requirement of the Department of Environmental Conservation." Number 0189 REPRESENTATIVE FATE moved to adopt the proposed committee substitute (CS), version 22-LS1752\C, Lauterbach, 5/3/02, as the work draft. There being no objection, Version C was before the committee. Number 0218 RYNNIEVA MOSS, Staff to Representative John Coghill, Alaska State Legislature, testified on behalf of the House State Affairs Standing Committee, which Representative Coghill chairs. Ms. Moss explained that on April 12, 2002, a group of people filed a lawsuit against the U.S. Army, the U.S. Department of Defense, and Donald Rumsfeld in his official capacity as U.S. Secretary of Defense,. She explained that the [second count] of the lawsuit states that the U.S. Army and the U.S. Department of Defense have violated, and continue to violate, AS 46.03.100(a). She maintained that this piece of legislation does not change anything in statute, and she said DEC [the Department of Environmental Conservation], in negotiations with the Army, has confirmed that the department has never interpreted this law any differently than the way the legislation asks it to be applied. MS. MOSS said [AS 46.03.100] does not apply to firing or other uses of munitions in training activities conducted on active ranges, including active ranges operated by the U.S. Department of Defense or U.S. military agencies. She mentioned that this issue is currently being dealt with on the federal level by Congress, and she said this legislation is needed because the [second count] of this lawsuit is based on the premise that the Army has violated this law, and that is not the case. Number 0490 The committee took an at-ease from 1:15 p.m. to 1:17 p.m. CO-CHAIR MASEK noted that public testimony was taken on this issue during the House Resources Standing Committee's 04/26/02 meeting on SB 356 am. Number 0538 REPRESENTATIVE STEVENS asked if all applicable military training activities are included in this bill. MS. MOSS replied, "Probably not." She said chemical warfare and so forth are covered under other sections of AS 46.03; this bill deals specifically with AS 46.03.100 because this is the section that has been challenged by the court case. Number 0613 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN indicated U.S. Coast Guard and Air Force offshore activities do not need to be included in the bill. Number 0633 REPRESENTATIVE KAPSNER mentioned the lawsuit, and she asked if retroactive [language] needed to be included in the bill. MS. MOSS said there is no need for retroactive language because this bill would only affect future training. Number 0689 REPRESENTATIVE KERTTULA asked if this bill would interfere with DEC's ability to take care of contaminants found on the site. MS. MOSS stated that AS 46.03 deals with contamination and contamination cleanup, and this bill is specific to the statute that is being challenged by the court case that says the Army is required to obtain a permit prior to participating in training activities involving the firing of munitions. She indicated the bill doesn't address existing or future contamination. REPRESENTATIVE KERTTULA asked if the bill only addresses permitting. MS. MOSS said yes; it is a permitting issue. Number 0815 STEVE CLEARY, Development Director, Alaska Public Interest Research Group (AkPIRG); Organizer, Citizens Opposed to Defense Experimentation (CODE), testified. Mr. Cleary urged the committee to oppose HB 529. He said no agency should be above the law, particularly one responsible for six "Superfund" [Comprehensive Environmental Response, Compensation, and Liability Act (CERCLA)] sites in Alaska that pose grave public health and safety hazards to Alaska and the wildlife that many people depend on. He suggested that legislation should not be used to [affect the outcome] of a lawsuit that is currently before the courts, that people deserve a fair hearing in court, and that legislation shouldn't be crafted specific to one lawsuit. MR. CLEARY said in regard to military practice, people get hurt in practice and are being hurt now. He said thousands of waterfowl have died at the Eagle River Flats, the same waterfowl that hunters shoot and eat. He said it is unknown what damage this might cause hunters through being poisoned by white phosphorus, and this bill would allow that to continue in the future. He said this is why it's bad legislation. Mr. Cleary explained that when an entity applies to DEC for a disposal permit, it is passed on to several other departments. He said it is a smart policy that shows the broad effects that disposal permits can have in protecting Alaskans, the state's fish and game, natural resources, economic development, and health and social services. He said every other agency, business, or person must get a permit and so should the U.S. Department of Defense and other military entities. An exemption, he said, is not necessary for the protection of national security, but the law is required for protection of the state and for local security from the harm and health effects of these munitions and other disposed-of products. Number 1025 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN suggested that military activity has been going on for 60 years [in this area], and he suggested that enough time had passed to determine whether this activity was going to harm waterfowl. Number 1077 TOM CHAPPLE, Director, Division of Air and Water Quality, Department of Environmental Conservation, testified. Mr. Chapple noted that the department had submitted written testimony that reiterated what he had said about this issue during the House Resources Standing Committee's 04/26/02 meeting on SB 356 am, and he would not repeat those comments. Mr. Chapple, in response to a question presented by Representative Kerttula, said if there were to be any pollution emanating from the site now, the department would have the authority and would work with the Army to try to correct it. He talked about the issue that came up with the white phosphorus problem and how the department worked with the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) and the Army to develop a record of decision, which culminated in the actions that would be taken to resolve the issue. He clarified that nothing in this legislation is intended to or would change DEC's responsibilities relative to addressing contamination, whether it happened while the site was active or after it closed. Number 1203 PAMELA MILLER, Biologist and Director, Alaska Community Action on Toxics (ACAT), testified. Ms. Miller noted that ACAT is a co-plaintiff in the lawsuit in question. She said she felt it was important to clarify some of the reasons that this litigation was brought forth, and the fact that it was brought forth as a last resort after the U.S. Army failed to address ACAT's legitimate concerns. She said she has been a part of the restoration advisory board for Fort Richardson for five years, and she has brought this issue publicly and in formal comments to Fort Richardson repeatedly, but has felt that her concerns have not been addressed. She said this lawsuit is designed to prevent further harm to the wildlife and human health in the Eagle River Flats, and to try to get the U.S. Army to clean up a very serious problem of more than 10,000 unexploded munitions that present a safety hazard and a toxicological hazard. She suggested that it has been proven repeatedly, on ranges throughout this country, that these [materials] cause harm to wildlife and human health, and she said the evidence of that harm is presented in written testimony, which she had submitted. MS. MILLER suggested that the U.S. Department of Defense should be required to comply with the same set of state and federal laws that any business, industry, or individual is required to meet. She said in seeking the required permits, ACAT doesn't think this is presenting any dangerous confrontation to national security. Ms. Miller talked about the importance of the U.S. Department of Defense in protecting the health and safety of the people "at home," and the importance for the military to be able to conduct training activities. She suggested it is not a threat to national security to require the military to get the permits that are being sought through this litigation. Ms. Miller said it is an attempt to hold the defendants accountable for the considerable harm they have created in a very important salt marsh estuary on Cook Inlet. Number 1483 REPRESENTATIVE KAPSNER said the Yukon-Kuskokwim Health Corporation (YKHC) has been doing research on the blood composition of Native people, especially women in the [Bethel] region, where a large number of people use the land's resources for food. She said the testimony that Ms. Miller provided is pretty alarming, and that the YKHC study of that area indicated that the lead count in pregnant women is "through the roof." Representative Kapsner said this is creating some serious concerns in the Bethel region, because according to new evidence, the effects of a high lead count during pregnancy can produce the same effect in children as Fetal Alcohol Syndrome (FAS). She turned attention to the chemicals listed on page 2 of Ms. Miller's written testimony, and she asked if the effects of those chemicals, particularly on children, have been researched and documented. She said the lead found in Bethel's pregnant women had been traced back to Mexican lead-shot, and she suggested that migratory birds are bringing traces of lead back to Alaska. MS. MILLER said the thousands of waterfowl deaths were shown to be a direct result of the white phosphorus contamination. She said this contamination continues to be the cause of thousands of waterfowl deaths per year, and she suggested that there haven't been adequate studies done to address the full range of environmental and health effects from other contaminants that are known to be associated with munitions. She said it is known that these types of contaminants have created very serious ground and surface water contamination on other bases throughout the country, which is why the lawsuit is seeking for the Army to address the contamination from the white phosphorus, because it is known the heavy metals contained in certain chemicals are associated with the propellants and explosives used on the Eagle River Flats. Number 1617 REPRESENTATIVE KAPSNER asked what white phosphorus does to humans. MR. CHAPPLE noted he is not fully capable of answering the question. He said there is an immediate reaction with waterfowl because phosphorus oxidizes rapidly when exposed to air; the phosphorus is buried in the soil during the explosions and then released into the soil or the water when a duck submerges its head to feed. He said current practices on the range are that no ordnances is exploded or trials are done during the summer season when birds are around. All activity is limited to the winter season when the flats are frozen, he said, which eliminates a lot of that sequence of events for burying the white phosphorus into the soil or water. Number 1710 LINDA FEILER testified. She said as a citizen of this country, she finds it a crime that she must speak against the military, and that if she believed the state laws were stupid, she wouldn't be here. She suggested it is unfair for anyone to be exempt from the laws that have been so carefully put into place for the health and welfare of the country. Ms. Feiler said she feels very strongly that [Alaska's] wetlands and water purity are paramount to the health of the state's people and its fisheries. She said it is her hope that the military is not here to harm [the land] but rather to defend [it]. She said she was in agreement with Ms. Miller's testimony, and she urged the committee not to support HB 529. Number 1785 SUSAN SCHRADER, Alaska Conservation Voters (ACV), testified. Ms. Schrader said ACV is concerned that without the oversight that is provided by a permit system, the military's activities at artillery ranges such as Eagle River Flats will continue to cause the degradation of water quality in wildlife habitats throughout the state. She suggested that 130 Department of Defense Superfund waste sites exist throughout the country, and 6 of those sites are located in Alaska. Ms. Schrader said she thinks it speaks quite clearly to the fact that the federal government realizes, and has acknowledged, that these sites are heavily contaminated. She noted that Fort Richardson is a Superfund site, and while recognizing the need for a well- trained military, she said efforts to protect national security should also [include] protecting the nation's environment and public health. MS. SCHRADER suggested that no agency should be above the law and granted the freedom to pollute. She said in her mind, the concept of homeland security should encompass the right to be secure in the knowledge that the air and water are free of toxins. She said her understanding is that because of inadequate staffing, financial resources, and the need to prioritize, [DEC] does not require permits for civilian or military rifle ranges. Ms. Schrader said regardless of the resources that preclude them from instituting a permit program for these activities, the fact remains that rifle ranges and artillery ranges are very likely sources of significant contamination, which can be seen at the Eagle River Flats and at a small rifle range in Juneau. She suggested that in order to comply with its mission to protect Alaskans' health, DEC should be given the funding that's necessary to carry out an efficient permit program to provide oversight for these activities. Simply because DEC doesn't have enough money or enough staff, it does not mean that the pollution is not there, she stated. MS. SCHRADER suggested that all Alaskans should be concerned that the white phosphorus contamination at the flats was detected by the Army, and not by the state agency that is mandated to protect Alaska's environmental health, and she thought it should be something of quite embarrassment. She said without a permitting program, there is no way for DEC to have the ability to do the type of oversight, monitoring, or verification that is needed to protect the state's water and air quality. Ms. Schrader said for that reason, she thought the committee should oppose the bill. Number 1975 BOB SHAVELSON, Executive Director, Cook Inlet Keeper, reported that Cook Inlet Keeper is currently a co-plaintiff in the litigation, [and is] trying to bring some accountability to the bombing range in Eagle River Flats. He said it is this litigation that's largely propelled the military to come before the legislature at this time. He said he thought it was important to recognize that the U.S. Supreme Court, in a ruling, said rightly that no man is above the law. Mr. Shavelson suggested this is because the U.S. is a nation of people from whom all the powers of corporations, government, and the military flow; that's the very essence of the constitutional democracy, and wars are fought to protect it. He suggested it is important to recognize that in a democracy, information is the currency, and when something that sounds simplistic like a permitting scheme is stripped away, information is removed from citizens, legislators, and agencies, who are therefore unable to make good decisions. That is a mistake, he suggested. MR. SHAVELSON said Alaska is littered with contaminated military sites, and the devastation brought to the environment and to workers can be seen out at Amchitka. He said he clearly recognizes the need for a strong national security, but he thought that because the U.S. is the richest, most powerful nation on the planet, without a peer, it can defend national security and protect the resources that support the economy, people, and way of life. Mr. Shavelson said it doesn't have to be an either/or [situation], and that he resents the fact that "we're always cast into this dichotomy where we have to choose one or the other." He suggested that the U.S. has the technology, money, and sophistication to do it right. He said in looking at an aerial photo of the Eagle River Flats, he was reminded of the network of veins and arteries in the human body. He said he thought that analogy is appropriate because the Eagle River Flats is the "lifeblood" of the fisheries in Cook Inlet. MR. SHAVELSON said the complex ecological exchanges that occur - the need for nutrition and habitat - are the very system that sustains the fisheries in Cook Inlet and supports the commercial, recreational, and subsistence users throughout the many communities in Cook Inlet. He said he hoped committee members with a concern for Cook Inlet fisheries, the communities, and the people it supports, would recognize that this [bill] is a step in the wrong direction. Mr. Shavelson suggested that the military has a budget that surpasses the gross domestic product (GDP) of all the Russian states combined, and it recently asked for an increase in its budget that is more than the military budgets of all other militarized nations combined. He remarked, "We're not talking about an inability to do this for some type of financial constraint; it's a policy issue." Number 2177 CO-CHAIR MASEK temporarily suspended the hearing on HB 529 to address other items of business. HB 527-MINTO FLATS GAME REFUGE CO-CHAIR MASEK announced that the next order of business would be HOUSE BILL NO. 527, "An Act relating to entry into the Minto Flats State Game Refuge for purposes of exploration and development of oil and gas resources." Number 2224 JENNIFER YUHAS, Staff to Representative Beverly Masek, Alaska State Legislature, presented HB 527 on behalf of the House Resources Standing Committee, sponsor, which Representative Masek co-chairs. Ms. Yuhas said in discussions with the Interior delegation, there were requests that something be produced to better facilitate economic development in the state by allowing for responsible exploration and development of oil and gas resources within the Minto Flats State Game Refuge. Number 2257 REPRESENTATIVE FATE said the bill was heard earlier in the day by the House Special Committee on Oil and Gas, and he mentioned several questions asked at that meeting. He said a proposed Nenana Basin oil and gas preliminary report indicated no possibility whatsoever for either exploration or development [in the Minto Flats Game Refuge]; a subsequent letter went to a private individual, which basically stated the same thing. He said this project involved a company named Andex Resources LLC; in consortium with Doyon, Limited, it is prepared to do the exploration and seismic work required to determine whether there is gas in commercial quantities. He mentioned that [the project] was at risk, and could've been a "huge wound" to the economy in Alaska, the Yukon drainage, and the vicinity around Fairbanks. Representative Fate explained that [at that point] the Interior delegation became active in the pursuit of this [project]. He said in discussions, Commissioner Frank Rue of the Alaska Department of Fish and Game (ADF&G) had [guaranteed] that he would try to mitigate the problems and [clarify] the letters that ADF&G had sent to the Department of Natural Resources (DNR). He mentioned that the letter still left some small doubt about the confusion [surrounding the project]. REPRESENTATIVE FATE said it was felt that a bill such as this would suffice to at least give the indication that exploration and development of the Nenana Basin would go forth, but with the same parameters and guidelines [set forth] to mitigate any problems that might come up relative to the environment. He said there was a good public process, and the people of Minto expressed several concerns regarding trapping and Native allotments, but they also said if those issues could be met successfully, they wanted the gas and were for the project. He said if this is done in a good and sound environmental manner, there's no reason for the project to be impeded. REPRESENTATIVE FATE noted the possibility of a conflict [because Mary Jane Fate is his spouse]. Number 2610 MARY JANE FATE testified. She said she was born and raised in Rampart, which is located on the Yukon River very close to Minto and the Elliott Highway. She said she is in favor of this bill as past CEO [chief executive officer], president, and chairman of the board of directors of Baan o yeel kon [Rampart Village Corporation], an ANCSA [Alaska Native Claims Settlement Act] village corporation; and as a current member on the board of directors; and as chairman of the investment committee. She said due to the location, and because of uses of the river in the summer and [possible] ice transportation for highways [in winter, there could be a 12-month involvement with transporting any affordable energy within the Yukon Basin. She noted that the school and the store had closed, and she said the economy is down, and that the area is not marketable because there is not access by land. Ms. Fate remarked, "We've plotted our R.S. 2477s and we've also gone on record, and the congressional delegations in Washington, D.C., have received money and [the] okay for our highway to connect the Yukon River Highway with the Elliott Highway." MS. FATE said this is why she is speaking for the bill. She said efforts are aggressively proactive in reviving the village of Rampart, and that other interests include affordable energy. She noted that there are many concerns about energy, which she indicated is not affordable. Ms. Fate urged the committee to [pass the bill], which she indicated would benefit the economy and employment in that area. CO-CHAIR MASEK noted that there are many areas of the state in similar situations, and she suggested that bills such as this will help economic development [in those areas]. MS. FATE suggested the road is going to happen, and that the money has "come across the board" thanks to U.S. Senator Ted Stevens. Number 2818 REPRESENTATIVE KERTTULA asked how high the level of activity is for hunting and fishing within the refuge itself. MS. FATE said she was raised on a trap line, and the village of Rampart was used as a source of supplies and education. She noted her involvement in activities such as hunting, fishing, trapping, logging, and berry picking. She indicated residents would gain from the exploration and development of the land, if accessed, and she said several subsidiaries have been set aside and would like to joint venture. She remarked, "Of course, we'll take care of our land; of course, we'll take care of the animals; I don't recall my father, who trapped, ... ever overtrapping, or abusing or misusing the use and occupancy of any of our lands, or other lands." Ms. Fate said there is no federal land in the area that she is speaking of; it is owned by the state, Baan o yeel kon, and Doyon, Limited. Number 2923 JIM DODSON, Executive Vice President, Andex Resources LLC ("Andex"), testified. Mr. Dodson said Andex had applied for an exploration license to explore for natural gas in the Nenana Basin, which is a natural-gas-prone basin. He said although the bill did not originate at Andex's urging, the company is in support. He said the hope is that the bill clarifies that the Nenana Basin is not "wholesale" off-limits to natural gas exploration, and that it puts the Nenana Basin and the Minto Flats State Game Refuge in positions similar to other state game refuges. Mr. Dodson said ADF&G feels its position regarding the Nenana Basin, particularly the Minto Flats State Game Refuge, may have been mischaracterized in a preliminary best-interest finding. This legislation would further clarify what development may occur, subject to the proper permitting, within the Minto Flats State Game Refuge, he said. TAPE 02-43, SIDE B Number 2995 MARK MYERS, Director, Division of Oil and Gas, Department of Natural Resources, testified. In response to a question by Representative Kerttula about oil and gas exploration in other refuges, Mr. Myers affirmed that [legislation relating to] the Susitna Flats [and Goose Bay State] Game Refuge and the Trading Bay State Game Refuge specifically have language similar to that proposed in this bill, and that there are other state game refuges that are basically mute to the point. He said this [legislation] would be consistent with [legislation relating to] the Susitna Flats [and Goose Bay State] Game Refuge and the Trading Bay State Game Refuge. Number 2987 CHIP DENNERLEIN, Director, Division of Habitat and Restoration, Alaska Department of Fish & Game, said he is familiar with both the concentration and commodity of resources; that he had formerly done work with [Cook Inlet Region, Incorporated]; and that he helped develop a natural-gas well in the Kenai National Wildlife Refuge. He explained that the department's concerns are that the Minto Flats State Game Refuge is a particularly important wildlife area that predates the refuge and was recognized as the most important fish and wildlife area in all of the Tanana Basin plan, not only for its production and sensitivity, but because of high public use. MR. DENNERLEIN said that area has the highest harvest of waterfowl in Alaska for subsistence or sport [hunting], and is a very obvious complex of lakes, ponds, and wetlands, which is why it's such a "hotspot." The development of subsurface oil and gas resources is allowed in the game refuge, so long as it's compatible with the fundamental, basic protection of those fish and wildlife resources. He said ADF&G's plan does say this in the regulations, and this bill has been correctly cast as mirroring that. Mr. Dennerlein said the issue in that area is going to be access in the northern area, and that some of the language that came out in the discussion during this process did create the impression that everything north of the river was a "blanket off the table." MR. DENNERLEIN noted that the department had tried to clarify that, and he talked about types of access. He said the first access is for exploration, and the department doesn't foresee any problem with that. He said if oil and gas is found, it is important that there is access for drilling and development pads. He said also very important, in this case, is production - if something is found and produced, can it be [transported out of the area]. So, it's a pipeline issue, he said, and the licensee/operator would want to know that if sufficient quantities of the resource are found, they could get it to market. MR. DENNERLEIN talked about the department's initial comments on the issue, and he said it was expressed that the department wished that there not be development north of the river, which is a very important "public use and sensitive [area]." He said what the department meant to say was that if some of these areas are going to be [included] in the license, the department didn't really mean it as a blanket prohibition; rather, it meant that these [areas] would require some special mitigation. He said there would be some areas which the department would not want surface occupancy. Mr. Dennerlein said the department believes it can work on the ground site by site within this language to meet the dual purposes of the refuge, protect the fish and wildlife, and allow the viable development of this prospect. Number 2810 DAVID SHAW, Conservation Chair, Arctic Audubon Society, explained that the Arctic Audubon Society is committed to the conservation of birds and bird habitats in Interior Alaska. He suggested HB 527 undermines ADF&G's ability to limit exploration in the Minto Flats, and also puts critical bird habitat in the path of oil and gas exploration. He said the Arctic Audubon Society is opposed to this bill because, according to ADF&G, the Minto Flats is one of the highest quality breeding and staging areas for waterfowl in Alaska, and possibly in all of North America. He said Trumpeter swans, which are a prevalent breeder in this region, are believed to be negatively affected by noise and human activity; they are often present in this area until November and arrive early in the spring. MR. SHAW said ADF&G should have authority to designate a "core" area or areas, off-limits to exploration. He suggested that this bill seeks to undermine that authority by creating a new subsection that requires entry into the refuge for exploration and development. The Minto Flats State Game refuge is an important Interior Alaska waterfowl and moose harvest area, he said, that is used frequently by waterfowl hunters, and is also an important area for subsistence and sport moose hunting. Mr. Shaw suggested that winter exploration will result in a loss of critical moose habitat. He said the Arctic Audubon Society supports the use of cleaner fuel as an alternative to oil and coal, but does not believe that the critical habitat in the Nenana Basin should be sacrificed, or that this area, designated as a refuge, should be opened to exploration and development, particularly when it is highly likely that in the near future a gas pipeline will pass through Interior Alaskan communities, tapping into the much richer gas deposits on the North Slope. CO-CHAIR MASEK suggested that 60 percent of Alaska's land is "locked up" in refuges or national parks, and said she thought this bill would not affect a lot of those areas that Mr. Shaw had talked about. REPRESENTATIVE FATE asked Mr. Shaw if he thought that the other three game refuges where oil and gas exploration had been done had sacrificed the fish and game. MR. SHAW clarified that he is trying to imply that danger goes along with any development in these delicate habitats, particularly in the Minto Flats. As a result, much of Alaska is off-limits. However, he suggested few of those areas have the [same] value for wildlife habitat that the Minto Flats has. In response to a comment by Representative Fate, he said it is the risk of sacrifice; the impact of development or what will be found is not known, and what exactly could happen in this area is not understood. Mr. Shaw said it is dangerous to go in with the attitude that it can be done right "when we simply do not know." Number 2602 ROGER SIGLIN testified, suggesting this proposal should have been rejected once it was known the refuge would be the center of development. He asked what this bill would change or accomplish, since existing legislation has already been interpreted to allow oil and gas development, if compatible with refuge purposes. He asked if it is Representative Fate's intent to ensure that concerns that ADF&G, regarding habitat and wildlife populations, not be allowed to preclude development in any part of the refuge where Andex and Doyon, Limited, desire to do so. He said in listening to Mr. Dennerlein's comments and in reading written comments by Commissioner Rue, he thought that objective had already been accomplished. Number 2528 LINDA FEILER testified, saying she finds it outrageous that the government agrees to set aside areas for protection, and then wants to ask the question again of whether "we" want to pollute it or destroy it. She noted that she has been a resident of Alaska for 25 years, and she suggested that the state spends a large amount of time setting aside refuges. She said according to "the dictionary's definition of refuge," that is not what is being done here. MS. FEILER said if these areas are going to be [contaminated] by waste and polluted, why are they being set aside for refuges. She said she knew from her experience, in living on the Kenai Peninsula and in the Anchor Point area, what oil and gas can do to a community. Ms. Feiler suggested there had been pollution in that area from oil for quite a long time. She said if an area that has been set aside as a refuge is going to be opened up [for exploration], "then you're asking us to go through the same thing that we went through" in the Anchor Point area. She asked, "Why do we set aside an area, call it a refuge, and then ask us to come back and then know whether we want to go in there and use it as anything but a refuge?" Number 2437 REPRESENTATIVE FATE said when refuges are formed, sometimes a critical analysis of the mineral substance deposits is not done or it is done and it shows that the [deposits] are noncommercial. He suggested that most of the refuges were not [intended] to deter the development of the subsurface; [the intention], mostly, is to protect the habitat and encourage the lifestyle of the people who use the land. Representative Fate said when these refuges were developed, there was no effort to try to forestall any subsurface development, as long as that development really didn't harm the environment. REPRESENTATIVE FATE, in response to a question from Mr. Siglin, turned attention to a statement from a preliminary finding by the director of DNR, which he read in part: Licensees are advised that the Alaska Department of Natural Resources and the Alaska Department of Fish and Game have joint management authority of the Minto Flats Game Reserve. [The] Alaska Department of Fish and Game has advised the Alaska Department of Natural Resources that they will not approve any facilities, pads, pipelines, or roads within the 277,760-acre core area of the Minto Flats game refuge located north of the Tanana River. REPRESENTATIVE FATE said this was construed to negate any possibility in the core area, where the gas is presumed to lie, and forestalled any possibility of either exploration or development. He said a subsequent letter went to an individual in Fairbanks stating basically the same thing. He said it was at this point that the Interior delegation came into play because of its worries about the development of gas in the Interior of Alaska and the possibility of lowering energy costs to the entire area. He said these letters seemed to indicate there would be no ability for gas exploration or development in the [Minto Flats State] Game Refuge. REPRESENTATIVE FATE said it wasn't a matter of whether there was a duplicate statute; it was a matter of clarification of the statutes, and of these communications by ADF&G. He said this bill clarifies it, so there is no doubt; it doesn't mitigate any requirement to explore or develop outside the parameters of good environmental safety, which is set by all agencies that are concerned with the preservation of the environment. Number 2173 MR. SIGLIN asked Representative Fate if he was saying that oil and gas development should proceed, even if the experts in ADF&G determine that it would have adverse impacts on fish and game that could not be alleviated or mitigated. REPRESENTATIVE FATE, in response, said the law doesn't say that, nor does this [bill] say that. He suggested that it was brought out during a previous House Special Committee on Oil and Gas meeting that there may be areas of complete sensitivity that [exploration] may have to go around. He said there's no effort with this bill or any other piece of legislation to try to circumvent those environmental safeguards. Number 2103 RUDY VETTER testified. Mr. Vetter said he is favor of HB 527. He talked about flat drilling and other [drilling] methods, and he said it his belief that this [project] can be developed. Mr. Vetter said if there is gas, then there's a possibility that there is a gas field there. He talked about the gas pipeline from the North Slope and the possibility of a gas pipeline in the foreseeable future. He said he's worked on the North Slope and watched the development of gas and oil. Mr. Vetter remarked, "Right now, and for the foreseeable future, that's not a gas pipeline; that's a pipe dream, because of the present price of gas ...." He suggested the price of gas could be lowered considerably, and that there would be sufficient development in the Lower 48 to make it uneconomical. Number 2011 BOB SHAVELSON, Executive Director, Cook Inlet Keeper, testified. Mr. Shavelson suggested that this [bill] is [setting] a bad precedent, and that there need to be areas that simply remain dedicated to the purposes for which they were set aside. He talked about flying over and touring through the Kenai National Wildlife Refuge, and he said the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service has previously found that oil and gas development in that refuge is incompatible with the purposes for which the refuge was established. He said evidence of that can be found in the report A Contaminants Assessment for the Kenai National Wildlife Refuge, which was done by a U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service biologist in 2001. Mr. Shavelson said the report provides historical documentation on a vast number of spills, leaks, explosions, other pollution events, total coverage of roads, pads, pipelines, noise, air pollution, and so forth. MR. SHAVELSON said [the report indicates that it isn't possible] to simultaneously have an area dedicated as important habitat and have heavy industrialized oil and gas development concurrently there. He said he's also had the opportunity to fly over and tour the Susitna [Flats and Goose Bay State Game] Refuge and the Trading Bay State Game Refuge. Mr. Shavelson said while it is not developed to the same extent as the Kenai National Wildlife Refuge, the same issues of habitat fragmentation, because of the breaking up of wetlands can be seen. He said these are only small impacts relative to a large area, but, in fact if fish and wildlife are to be protected, it is his belief that the lines need to be kept defined, and not mixed together. Number 1862 CO-CHAIR MASEK, upon determining no one else wished to testify, closed public testimony. Number 1841 CO-CHAIR MASEK temporarily suspended the hearing on HB 527 to address other items of business. CONFIRMATION HEARINGS Board of Game CO-CHAIR MASEK announced the next order of business would be the confirmation hearings on the appointments of J. Dana Pruhs, George Matz, Caleb Pungowiyi, Bruce H. Baker, and Michelle R. Sparck to the Board of Game. Number 1804 J. DANA PRUHS, Appointee to the Board of Game, testified. He explained that he is a lifelong Alaskan who was born and raised in Fairbanks. He said he is a businessman who works in the construction business throughout Alaska, and is also the owner of a commercial aggregate business in Wasilla and an air service in Homer. Mr. Pruhs explained that he is a lifelong hunter who loves to fish and that he is a consumptive user. Number 1753 CO-CHAIR MASEK asked him for his thoughts on both subsistence and a constitutional amendment. MR. PRUHS indicated that it would depend on the constitutional amendment, and he would have to look at the details. He said he is pretty much in favor of equal access, but he is also passionately for [giving subsistence to] the people who need it. Mr. Pruhs said he would tend to let the elected officials handle that issue and come up with the best decision possible for citizens to make a decision. CO-CHAIR MASEK mentioned a bill that was passed previously by the legislature that deals with intensive management, and a proposal passed by the Board of Game to initiate that bill. She said the administration had not done anything with the issue of intensive management, and she asked Mr. Pruhs for his thoughts on the issue. MR. PRUHS said he thought intensive management is a valuable tool when used in the appropriate areas. However, he said, the board can only authorize the department to do certain things, and does not have fiscal or oversight responsibility. Mr. Pruhs remarked, "All we can do is authorize the ... department to do what we think is right, based on the input and the results we get from local people." Number 1576 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN talked about predator control and some of the methods used such as removal, killing, and neutering. He asked Mr. Pruhs how he felt about predator control, and if he had a preference on the method used. MR. PRUHS said he did not object to predator control and that he believed the least expensive method, if the state were to participate, would be to let it be handled locally. He said it would depend on the circumstances, but if [the state] does enter into predator control, the most efficient way would be the best. REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked Mr. Pruhs if he wouldn't object to using the most efficient method out of those mentioned previously. MR. PRUHS, in response, said correct. Number 1509 REPRESENTATIVE KERTTULA asked Mr. Pruhs why he wanted to be on the board. MR. PRUHS said as a user of the resource, and because of his love for the state, that he wants to contribute. He said he has hunted and fished all of his life, and he believes it is an important resource to the state. Mr. Pruhs explained that he is at a point in his career where he can afford to take the time to [be on the board], and that he thought citizens of the state should do that. REPRESENTATIVE KERTTULA asked Mr. Pruhs about his background and whether he had experience working with biologists or game managers. MR. PRUHS, in response, said he hasn't [worked with biologists or game managers] and that when he worked for the Alaska Department of Fish and Game (ADF&G), he looked for areas to hunt, and talked to biologists about where "success rates" are and what the habitat is like, for him and his family. REPRESENTATIVE KERTTULA asked Mr. Pruhs if he hunts with dogs. MR. PRUHS said he loves Labradors retrievers and that working with them is a passion of his. In his view, [hunting with dogs] is the best way to conserve birds because of the success in getting the bird back; he said it limits the number of takes. Number 1400 REPRESENTATIVE FATE noted the possibility of a conflict because he has known Mr. Pruhs family very well for many years. Number 1310 GEORGE MATZ, Appointee to the Board of Game, testified. Mr. Matz characterized himself as a 26-year resident of Alaska. He talked about his experiences living in Fairbanks, Juneau, and Anchorage. He said he has traveled throughout the state, which includes [visiting] more than 70 villages, and that he is familiar with the diversity and natural history of the state. He said he has worked in the private, public, and nonprofit sectors, and he referred to his resume for additional information. Mr. Matz said since being appointed to the Board of Game last May, he has attended four Board of Game meetings and he has participated in two advisory committees. He talked about his experience chairing a committee, and he said despite the diverse makeup of the committee, it was able to reach a full consensus on all recommendations. Mr. Matz explained that he is currently participating in a joint-board task force that is seeking to improve the understanding between the board and the advisory committees throughout the state. He said he believes one of the main purposes of the board is to provide a hunting opportunity that is sustainable and fair. In terms of reaching decisions that are fair, he said, he supported the use of collaborative processes. MR. MATZ said he is very interested in all aspects of wildlife, including hunting, wildlife observation, or just reading about wildlife. He explained that he and his wife believe in living close to the land and are avid consumptive users, which includes hunting, fishing, clam digging, and berry picking. Mr. Matz said he respects the hunting tradition and recognizes its importance to many of Alaska's families. He said he would appreciate the committee's consideration of his confirmation to the Board of Game. Number 1190 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN noted that Mr. Matz resume reflected that he had spent a significant amount of time on environmental pursuits. He asked Mr. Matz how he viewed the order of preference for game. MR. MATZ said he didn't see hunting and wildlife observation as being incompatible, so it's not one over the other. REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked Mr. Matz how he felt about predator control. MR. MATZ said he thought it is a necessary tool in the "toolbox" of wildlife management, and that there are certainly times when it fits in. CO-CHAIR MASEK said a couple of years ago the administration suggested closing down portions of Game Management Unit (GMU) 14 by the Nelchina [caribou] herd and Glennallen, in the area where people have used four-wheelers to access game. She said there was an issue about the impact to the environment, and she asked Mr. Matz for his opinion on the issue and how he felt about motorized access with regard to hunting. MR. MATZ said if there is no proof that there is any impact or any problem between user groups, he would say not to bother with it and that it wouldn't be a problem that needs to be addressed. CO-CHAIR MASEK suggested that last year the Board of Game took up a proposal that dealt with the Kenai area in regard to the stream there. She asked Mr. Matz about his opinion on that proposal. MR. MATZ noted that Co-Chair Masek had testified at that meeting. He explained that there was some discussion on that proposal and it was approved by the board 7-0. He said it was felt that it wasn't a regulatory matter; rather, it was just reaffirming a policy that already existed, which was the consensus of the board at the time. Number 0963 CO-CHAIR MASEK asked Mr. Matz for his opinion on the Tier II [subsistence] permit. MR. MATZ said no one is satisfied with the Tier II situation; it has problems. He said he thought the Board of Game, at the January statewide meeting, made some definite improvements in making it work better. Mr. Matz explained that the board raised the cap, which was initially at 30 years, and had created some problems for people that have long-term residency as hunters in Alaska. He said essentially, those people qualified for Tier II permits, which the Board of Game thought was a problem, and so the cap was raised to 50 years, with the hope that those people will be able to qualify in the next round of Tier II permits. He said he is concerned with verification and with charges that people have misleading information on their permits. Mr. Matz said he thought it was an unfortunate issue and that the question had been raised with ADF&G. He explained that he thought the Board of Game did the best it could, given the latitude it has. CO-CHAIR MASEK asked Mr. Matz his position on the state constitution regarding equal access to the resource and a constitutional amendment for subsistence. MR. MATZ said it would depend on the amendment; it would be hard to give his thoughts unless he knew what was put forth in the amendment. Number 0680 CALEB PUNGOWIYI, Appointee to the Board of Game, testified. Mr. Pungowiyi characterized himself as a 60-year-old lifelong Alaskan, born and raised on St. Lawrence Island. He talked about his past work experience and his current occupation as president of the Robert [Aqqaluk] Newlin, Sr. Memorial Trust, a nonprofit foundation established by NANA Regional Corporation. He said he just got his permanent hunting, fishing, and trapping license, which he is very proud of. Mr. Pungowiyi explained that he is a recreational trapper, primarily trapping beaver, land otter, and muskrat for home use for his wife to sew things for their grandkids. He noted that he has pretty much traveled all over Alaska in his involvement with his work and for other boards and commissions that he's served on. Mr. Pungowiyi said he was recently on a scientific advisory committee for the Marine Mammal Commission as a Native advisor, and he is currently on the advisory panel for the Alaska State Council of the Arts. REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked Mr. Pungowiyi why there is such a rapid turnover in his employment record. MR. PUNGOWIYI explained that he retired from Kawerak in 1989 and moved to Kotzebue, where he worked as city manager. Soon after, he said, he was hired as president for Inuit Circumpolar Conference and he moved to Anchorage for three years. He then moved back to Kotzebue and was hired as the director of the Natural Resource Program, he said, which he committed to for four years. Finally, he said, he moved back to Kotzebue, where he is currently working for the trust. REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked Mr. Pungowiyi if he considered himself to be a good group worker. He questioned whether the reason that Mr. Pungowiyi had such short tenures was due to upward mobility. MR. PUNGOWIYI said a lot of it was employment-and family-driven. He said he is a team worker who works well with other people, and in working in natural resources, he's had to deal with some tough issues and encourage the inclusion of input from other users, so the spectrum of people involved included everybody, and whatever regulation or policy might be adopted would include all of those that might be affected. He said this is so those people have some role in the policy that is going to be decided. He said he feels it is his role to ensure that all people's input is heard regarding policies that might affect them. CO-CHAIR MASEK asked Mr. Pungowiyi his view on ANILCA [Alaska National Interest Lands Conservation Act] versus the state constitution on equal access to the resource. MR. PUNGOWIYI talked about Congress trying to address the subsistence issues of Alaska Natives and those who live in rural areas. He said it's the law of the land and is something that the federal government, and those that are affected by it, have to abide by. He talked about the state constitution's allowing all Alaska residents to have equal access to the resource; he said as a member of the board, he is bound by the state constitution to allow for equal access and he followed that in his decision-making process in Fairbanks. He remarked, "I think we have to realize that whether we disagree or agree on certain things, ... if the law applies, you have to apply the law." REPRESENTATIVE KERTTULA asked Mr. Pungowiyi why he is motivated to fill this position. Number 0050 MR. PUNGOWIYI said it is his desire to be a public servant and to represent views that otherwise might not be heard. He talked about the Board of Game's affecting a lot of people. TAPE 02-44, SIDE A Number 0001 MR. PUNGOWIYI said it's a commitment and a sacrifice because it requires him to be away from his family for a long period of time, but it is also a public service, and he feels that he would be a good public servant to the State of Alaska. Number 0099 BRUCE H. BAKER, Appointee to the Board of Game, testified. Mr. Baker said he has been an Alaska resident for over 30 years, and has dedicated most of his professional career to help manage habitats that are essential for sustaining the game populations that the Board of Game is responsible for ensuring the continuation of. He explained that he retired from ADF&G 10 years ago, and is now self-employed as a natural resource consultant on issues that don't come before the Board of Game. He said he [worked for] ADF&G for 11 years, and before that he served as a natural resource policy specialist in the Office of the Governor under former Governor Jay Hammond. Mr. Baker said he's worked with a variety of user groups to try to find solutions to natural resource management problems of a wide variety, and that he's performed biological field work in Southeast, Southcentral, and Interior Alaska and has had the opportunity to travel fairly extensively throughout other portions of the state. He said he is an active hunter and he recognizes trapping as a legitimate use of game. MR. BAKER said he is at a point in his career where he has the time to dedicate to game board responsibilities, and to help local ADF&G advisory committees and the general public to participate in the board's decision making process. He said he feels that the board has a public trust responsibility that he takes very seriously, and he tries to listen to everyone and ensure that his votes on proposed regulatory changes are informed, fair, and consistent with the laws that the legislature passes. REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked Mr. Baker if he is a hunter or a fisherman. MR. BAKER, in response, said he is both. He explained that he bought his first Alaska hunting license in 1965, and has had hunting and fishing licenses frequently since, including for the last 12 consecutive years. Number 0329 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked Mr. Baker how he felt about predator control. MR. BAKER said he thought the overriding consideration is for game populations and their habitats to be managed so they are vigorous enough to be around 20 years from now, for people to have these same discussions about. He said he has spent a lot of years working in government, and one of the advantages is that he has become very accustomed to doing his best to work with a team to implement the existing statutory and regulatory direction, without superimposing any personal biases, and to do that to the best of his ability. Mr. Baker said he thought a lot of the priorities are established in statute, in terms of when a population is suppressed enough to preclude nonresident use, resident nonlocal use, local use, or nonsubsistence or subsistence. He said he thought that was all well laid out in the statutory direction, so he didn't have any problem with working with other board members and under the advice of the AG's [attorney general's] office, in board deliberations on game management on a GMU basis, to try to make the best decisions possible regarding those priorities. Number 0527 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked Mr. Baker if he would favor curtailing hunting over predator control, if the yield had been reduced in a GMU area. MR. BAKER, in response, said predator control is a controversial and difficult issue. He said his experience with any kind of a problem like that is if it can be broken down into most manageable pieces, it becomes easier to deal with, and fortunately, most of the proposals that come before the Board of Game on predator reduction come in a GMU or sub-unit basis, not on a statewide or regional basis. He said that's fortunate because the population following can be looked at to make the determinations needed: dynamics of the predator and prey; habitat conditions; the level of public use; economic need that local hunters are faced with; and area-specific considerations. He said a lot of times predator control might be accompanied by a reduction in season and bag limits; if the ungulate prey population is that stressed, maybe "you need to reach for a combination of tools in the toolbox." Mr. Baker said he wouldn't want to try to prejudge or make a general sweeping statement for all of Interior Alaska; he would rather participate in focused board discussions on the circumstances surrounding each GMU. REPRESENTATIVE GREEN said there are a lot of people who feel that the subsistence problem could be relieved considerably if large losses due to predators were taken out to allow more of the prey to be available. He suggested in this scenario, there wouldn't be an rural/urban divide. Number 0736 MR. BAKER said he believed in predator control on a case-by-case basis. CO-CHAIR MASEK asked Mr. Baker how he felt about motorized access for hunting. MR. BAKER said he is supportive of motorized access for the purpose of hunting. He said during the Fairbanks board meeting in March, the board looked for opportunities to allow people in a local area to exercise some local control over excessively high predator populations. He said the board did that in a number of ways by relaxing seasons and bag limits, and by recognizing the legitimacy of having legal snow machine access, for example, to wolf populations in wolf-control areas. He said he thought his and the board's record supported the notion that they were responsive to the need to identify access. CO-CHAIR MASEK mentioned the Board of Game's proposal that had to do with ATV [all-terrain vehicle] access on the Kenai River. MR. BAKER said he wasn't on the board at that time and didn't know the specifics. He talked about access questions that the board was faced with at the Fairbanks meeting in March, such as snow machine access to wolf populations that were excessively high, or allowing riverboat use for access, for hunting in areas where there was no demonstrated biological impact that was significantly negative or negative at all, or where there was no tremendous inequity between user groups, and he said the legitimacy for use of airboats was recognized. He said he thought his own voting record and that of the board were consistent with the notion of providing access, unless there was a good, defensible reason for not doing so. Number 0932 REPRESENTATIVE FATE suggested the take for human harvest is somewhere between 3 and 5 percent. He asked Mr. Baker if he would work actively to increase the human harvest, or if he thought that was the level it should stay. MR. BAKER said he tends to think more in terms of GMU-specific circumstances. For example, he said, in the McGrath area in Unit 19, there has been a lot of discussion about prey, wolf, and black bear population levels. He mentioned that there had been a historic high population of moose in that unit of about 6,000 to 7,000 animals. He said the Board of Game established a management objective of 3,500 animals, and ADF&G's estimates of the moose population in the last year or so have gone from 1,800 to 1,200. However, he said, the 1,200 figure was taken last fall, and [ADF&G] is not accustomed to doing fall censuses and had indicated that the conditions were not great. He said ADF&G suggested that maybe 1,800 is a more accurate figure, and the department is anxious to see the results from this year. He said if he can begin to work with numbers like that with other board members in a particular GMU, then it becomes easier to try to say what population and harvest objective need to be established in regulation, for that species in that unit, "which we do, of course, in regulation as required by an existing law." MR. BAKER, in response to Representative Fate's question about increasing the human harvest, said he is assuming that the demand is there, and if it is there and the biology for the prey population can support it, sure. REPRESENTATIVE FATE asked Mr. Baker, if predator consumption were 84 percent and human consumption were 6 percent, whether he would increase the human consumption or keep it at that level. MR. BAKER said in that case, it sounds as though one might want to reduce the predator population so that human consumption can be increased. Number 1207 MICHELLE SPARCK, Appointee to the Board of Game, testified. Ms. Sparck explained that she was born in Anchorage and raised between Bethel and Chevak. She talked about attending school in Bethel and returning to Alaska in 1997, upon completion of her postsecondary education, which [she attended] in Washington, D.C., where she was close to her father's side of the family and able to spend time developing her skills for a profession in advocacy. She said the employment choices she has made in her life have always been with the full intent to return and remain a human resource to Alaska, particularly to her home region. She explained that these circumstances enabled her to gain a considerable understanding of what resource management on public land and water involves. MS. SPARCK mentioned having come from a state where an enormous majority of land is held in government trusts; her own backyard, the Yukon-Kuskokwim Delta National Wildlife Refuge, encompasses [an area that is the size of] Washington [State]. She suggested it is important to know how the regulatory process affects the daily lives of user groups. She said in regard to how things work in the state and with state resource management, she'd grown up in this arena and has been actively working in it since she was out of high school. Ms. Sparck said from this experience, she knows how hard the work is to commit the time and effort to an issue, and especially to see it through. She explained that is why she takes public participation and the process so seriously. MS. SPARCK said she realizes how difficult it was for the public to anticipate how she would conduct herself as a board member, with her appointment having come shortly before the March meeting in Fairbanks, but it is her sincere hope that the public has since been assured that she takes its concern and proposals [seriously], and that she is open to ideas, cooperation, and compromise in the best interest of the resource and the user groups. She said from the village, town, city, and regional levels to the statewide level, she appreciates what information is presented to her, from the ground up, on how to formulate a decision. MS. SPARCK said she recognized the critical responsibility that comes with being a board member, where her vote can affect an outcome, and she doesn't take it lightly that these votes can benefit or hurt a person's livelihood or recreational activities. She said [Alaskans] live in an remarkable state with extraordinary resources and a vastly diverse user group, and she doesn't take that for granted. She remarked, "But knowing the user groups, they certainly wouldn't let me get away with it anyway." Number 1423 REPRESENTATIVE KAPSNER said she is tempted to declare a conflict because she and Ms. Sparck were classmates, and she'd known Ms. Sparck almost her whole life. She said she is enthusiastic about Ms. Sparck's nomination to the Board of Game, and that Ms. Sparck neglected to mention that she was always very actively involved in student government, and was president of the Alaska Association of Student Government. She mentioned that Ms. Sparck and her sisters had worked for all of the members of [Alaska's] congressional delegation. She explained that Ms. Sparck's parents were strong advocates for the region, and her father was one of the most revered leaders that [the region] has had in recent history. She said Ms. Sparck's mother is a professor at the university, and the family is very deep- thinking and committed. She remarked, "And I think [Ms. Sparck] is just one of the brightest stars we have in our region ...." Representative Kapsner thanked Ms. Sparck for all the work that she's done in Washington, D.C., over the years. Number 1565 CO-CHAIR MASEK asked Ms. Sparck how long she lived outside of the state. MS. SPARCK said she received her postsecondary education in Washington, D.C., and had worked for U.S. Senator Ted Stevens and Congressman Don Young for two years. Number 1632 ROSE ATUK-FOSDICK testified. Ms. Atuk-Fosdick asked the committee to confirm the appointment of Mr. Pungowiyi and Ms. Sparck to the Board of Game. She said Mr. Pungowiyi and Ms. Sparck have a unique capability that she very much respected. She said they both have lifelong experience in traditional methods of hunting, gathering, and in "putting away" animals, plants, and birds as subsistence resources. She said Mr. Pungowiyi and Ms. Sparck have experience and understand the procedures and [the process of] making changes in regulations that affect and oversee the management of fish and game. Ms. Atuk-Fosdick said Mr. Pungowiyi had experience in Tier II issues because musk ox hunting is an issue on the Seward Peninsula. Number 1723 LORETTA BULLARD, President, Kawerak Incorporated ("Kawerak"), testified. Ms. Bullard said Kawerak's board is in full support of confirmation of both Mr. Pungowiyi and Ms. Sparck to the Board of Game. She said she had the privilege of working for Mr. Pungowiyi for four years, when he served as president of Kawerak from 1985 to 1989, and more recently when he came back to work as the director of Kawerak's [Natural Resource Program]. She said Mr. Pungowiyi did an excellent job in both capacities, and is smart and familiar with the resource and the legal issues. She said he is diplomatic and certainly a team player, and she suggested that Mr. Pungowiyi's employment history reflects people's knowledge of his skills and his demand within the statewide community for his services. She said it is believed that both Mr. Pungowiyi and Ms. Sparck would be outstanding members of the Board of Game, and she urged the committee to support their confirmations. Number 1788 CO-CHAIR MASEK, upon determining no one else wished to testify, closed public testimony. [The motions to advance the confirmations to the Board of Game were made following the hearings on HB 529 and HB 527.] HB 529-PERMIT EXEMPTION FOR MUNITIONS USE CO-CHAIR MASEK returned attention to HOUSE BILL NO. 529, "An Act exempting the use of munitions in certain areas from a waste disposal permit requirement of the Department of Environmental Conservation." Number 1820 RYNNIEVA MOSS, Staff to Representative John Coghill, Alaska State Legislature, testified again on behalf of the House State Affairs Standing Committee, sponsor, which Representative Coghill chairs. She turned attention to Title 46, and she said there are 61 pages of statutes that deal with water-air entity and environmental conservation laws, and another 43 pages that deal with oil and hazardous substance laws. Ms. Moss said it was mentioned during testimony that this bill is set to nullify a lawsuit, which is not true. She said [the intention of the bill] is to clarify what the law intended, so that a judge making a decision in this case does not have to guess what the law is, and to make all parties aware of past, present, and future practices by the Department of Natural Resources [DNR] with regard to wastewater disposal permits. Number 1887 REPRESENTATIVE McGUIRE mentioned that she and Representative Green had cosponsored a bill that prohibited a trail from going through a refuge in [the Anchorage] area. She expressed concern about being consistent, and she suggested that [the bill] seemed really broad and covered a lot of protections. She asked Ms. Moss if she felt comfortable in exempting the military from all of the provisions. MS. MOSS explained that this bill only exempts the military from [AS 46.03.100], which is a wastewater disposal permit. She said in his testimony, Mr. Tom Chapple, Director, Division of Air and Water Quality, Department of Environmental Conservation, was very quick to point out that DEC has never required, nor does it intend to require, a permit for current activities on active military firing and training ranges. She said that was the understanding of the law in the past, but this lawsuit has brought up the fact that the law is not clear, and this [bill] is an attempt to clarify that law. REPRESENTATIVE McGUIRE asked if DEC was in support of this legislation. MS. MOSS said yes. Number 1974 REPRESENTATIVE KERTTULA asked Ms. Moss if there was currently an injunction [against the military with regard to training or firing munitions on the Eagle River Flats]. MS. MOSS said no. REPRESENTATIVE KERTTULA asked Ms. Moss if she knew of any other states that exempt the military from getting permits. MS. MOSS directed the question to DEC or the military. She said the only reason this legislation was brought forth is because the lawsuit has brought out that a state statute is unclear. She suggested it is already known that the federal laws are unclear, and Congress is dealing with that issue, but this [bill] deals with the [second count] of the lawsuit. CO-CHAIR MASEK offered her belief that there had been some really good debate on the bill and that a lot of issues had been clarified. She said this bill is pretty simple in nature and that she didn't believe it would have an impact on the state. Number 2062 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN moved to report CSHB 529 [version 22- LS1752\C, Lauterbach, 5/3/02] out of committee with individual recommendations and the accompanying zero fiscal notes. Number 2079 REPRESENTATIVE KERTTULA objected. She explained that [she believed] DEC had been very clear about its practice and that would be the testimony to the court. She referred to the court action, and she said there is no injunction, so the committee is not changing anything about the way that the military can currently act. Representative Kerttula said she didn't feel comfortable with what might happen in terms of the court case, if this bill is passed. Number 2126 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN noted the earlier questioning about lead and the problems that could be associated with that, and he said that is not the [issue]. He suggested the lead is probably lead-shot from hunters and is ingested by waterfowl, which [migrate to Alaska] and either die or are eaten. He said he thought the issue being discussed was live rounds of explosive ammunition, which is not lead. Number 2160 REPRESENTATIVE KAPSNER noted that she is also concerned with the white phosphorus that is evident, and she suggested that the effects of white phosphorus on waterfowl and people, including the people who eat the waterfowl, are [unknown]. REPRESENTATIVE GREEN mentioned that the [Army] had testified that [the use of white phosphorus] was stopped over 10 years ago, and that the Army had been mediating [that issue]. CO-CHAIR MASEK noted that [live firing of munitions by the Army] takes place when the ground is frozen, and she suggested that nothing goes into the ground. Number 2203 REPRESENTATIVE KERTTULA withdrew her objection. Number 2244 CO-CHAIR MASEK announced that [CSHB 529(RES)] was moved out of the House Resources Standing Committee. The committee took an at-ease from 3:20 p.m. to 3:21 p.m. REPRESENTATIVE KERTTULA noted that hadn't realized the committee was moving the CS [since she'd been absent at the beginning of the meeting], and that there was a distinct difference between it and the original bill. She said the CS had been broadened to [include] all active ranges, and that [difference] clearly would have involved lead. [CSHB 529(RES) was moved out of committee.] HB 527-MINTO FLATS GAME REFUGE CO-CHAIR MASEK returned attention to HOUSE BILL NO. 527, "An Act relating to entry into the Minto Flats State Game Refuge for purposes of exploration and development of oil and gas resources." Number 2307 REPRESENTATIVE FATE moved to report HB 527 out of committee with individual recommendations and the accompanying zero fiscal notes. There being no objection, HB 527 was reported from the House Resources Standing Committee. CONFIRMATION HEARINGS Board of Game CO-CHAIR MASEK returned the committee's attention to the confirmation hearings on the appointments of J. Dana Pruhs, George Matz, Caleb Pungowiyi, Bruce H. Baker, and Michelle R. Sparck to the Board of Game. Number 2377 REPRESENTATIVE FATE made a motion to move the nomination of J. Dana Pruhs to the Board of Game forward to the full bodies for consideration. There being no objection, the confirmation of J. Dana Pruhs was advanced from the House Resources Standing Committee. Number 2397 REPRESENTATIVE McGUIRE made a motion to move the nomination of George Matz to the Board of Game forward to the full bodies for consideration. There being no objection, the confirmation of George Matz was advanced from the House Resources Standing Committee. Number 2420 REPRESENTATIVE FATE made a motion to move the nomination of Caleb Pungowiyi to the Board of Game forward to the full bodies for consideration. There being no objection, the confirmation of Caleb Pungowiyi was advanced from the House Resources Standing Committee. Number 2429 REPRESENTATIVE KAPSNER made a motion to move the nomination of Michelle R. Sparck to the Board of Game forward to the full bodies for consideration. There being no objection, the confirmation of Michelle R. Sparck was advanced from the House Resources Standing Committee. Number 2458 REPRESENTATIVE KERTTULA made a motion to move the nomination of Bruce H. Baker to the Board of Game forward to the full bodies for consideration. There being no objection, the confirmation of Bruce H. Baker was advanced from the House Resources Standing Committee. ADJOURNMENT  There being no further business before the committee, the House Resources Standing Committee meeting was adjourned at 3:25 p.m.