HOUSE RESOURCES STANDING COMMITTEE April 28, 1998 2:10 p.m. MEMBERS PRESENT Representative Bill Hudson, Co-Chairman Representative Scott Ogan, Co-Chairman Representative Beverly Masek, Vice Chair Representative Ramona Barnes Representative Fred Dyson Representative Joe Green Representative William K. (Bill) Williams Representative Reggie Joule Representative Irene Nicholia MEMBERS ABSENT All members present COMMITTEE CALENDAR CONFIRMATION HEARINGS: Alaska Commercial Fisheries Entry Commission Mary McDowell - Juneau - CONFIRMATION ADVANCED Board of Game Robert Churchill - Anchorage - CONFIRMATION ADVANCED Board of Game Walter Sampson - Kotzebue - CONFIRMATION ADVANCED Board of Fisheries Dr. John R. White - Bethel - CONFIRMATION ADVANCED Board of Fisheries Russell Nelson - Dillingham - CONFIRMATION ADVANCED (* First public hearing) PREVIOUS ACTION No previous action to record WITNESS REGISTER MARY McDOWELL, appointee to the Alaska Commercial Fisheries Entry Commission 555 Hemlock Street Juneau, Alaska 99801 Telephone: (907) 463-5160 POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony and answered questions of the committee members regarding her confirmation to the Alaska Commercial Fisheries Entry Commission. DICK HOFFMAN, President Alaska Trollers Association 130 Seward Street, Suite 505 Juneau, Alaska 99802 Telephone: (907) 586-9400 POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of the confirmation of Mary McDowell to the Alaska Commercial Fisheries Entry Commission. JERRY McCUNE, Representative United Fishermen of Alaska 211 Fourth Street, Suite 112 Juneau, Alaska 99801 Telephone: (907) 586-2820. POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of the confirmation of Mary McDowell to the Alaska Commercial Fisheries Entry Commission. ROBERT CHURCHILL, appointee to the Board of Game 3415 Wentworth Anchorage, Alaska 99508 Telephone: (907) 279-8927 POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony and answered questions of the committee members regarding his confirmation to the Board of Game. DICK BISHOP, Vice President Alaska Outdoor Council 211 4th Street, Suite 302 A Juneau, Alaska 99801 Telephone: (907) 463-3830 POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of the confirmation of Robert Churchill and Walter Sampson to the Board of Game; and Dr. White and Russell Nelson to the Board of Fisheries. WALTER SAMPSON, appointee to the Board of Game P.O. Box 1088 Kotzebue, Alaska 99752 Telephone: (907) 442-3605 POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony and answered questions of the committee members regarding his appointment to the Board of Game. PATRICK WRIGHT, Chair Anchorage Fish and Game Advisory Committee P.O. Box 90386 Anchorage, Alaska 99509 Telephone: (907) 279-1340 POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of the confirmation of Walter Sampson, Robert Churchill and Eric Williamson to the Board of Game; and Russell Nelson to the Board of Fisheries. JOHN R. WHITE, Doctor, appointee to the Board of Fisheries P.O. Box 190 Bethel, Alaska 99559 Telephone: (907) 543-2926 POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony and answered questions of the committee members regarding his confirmation to the Board of Fisheries. BEN ELLIS, Executive Director Kenai River Sport Fishing Association P.O. Box 1228 Soldotna, Alaska 99669 Telephone: (907) 262-8585 POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of the confirmation of Dr. White and Russell Nelson to the Board of Fisheries. JOE HANES P.O. Box 3132 Soldotna, Alaska 99669 Telephone: (907) 262-6388 POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of the confirmation of Dr. White and Russell Nelson to the Board of Fisheries. MYRA OLSEN, Chair Lower Bristol Bay Advisory Committee P.O. Box 74 Egegik, Alaska 99579 Telephone: (907) 233-2424 POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of the confirmation of Dr. White and Russell Nelson to the Board of Fisheries. HAZEL NELSON 1577 "C" Street, Number 304 Anchorage, Alaska 99501 Telephone: (907) 263-9820 POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of the confirmation of Dr. White and Russell Nelson to the Board of Fisheries. ALVIN PEDERSEN PO BOX 29 CHIGNIK LAGOON, Alaska 99565 Telephone: (907) 840-2229 POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of the confirmation of Dr. White and Russell Nelson to the Board of Fisheries. RICHARD SHARP (Address not provided) Chignik, Alaska 99564 Telephone: (Not provided) POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of the confirmation of Dr. White and Russell Nelson to the Board of Fisheries. TONY GRAGORIO (Address not provided) Chignik, Alaska 99564 Telephone: (Not provided) POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of the confirmation of Dr. White to the Board of Fisheries. REUBEN HANKE P.O. Box 624 Soldotna, Alaska 99611 Telephone: (907) 262-5097 POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of the confirmation of Dr. White and Russell Nelson to the Board of Fisheries. ANDY SZCZESNY 198 Hillcrest Avenue Soldotna, Alaska 99669 Telephone: (907) 262-9439 POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of the confirmation of Dr. John White to the Board of Fisheries. BILL SULLIVAN P.O. Box 943 Kenai, Alaska 99611 Telephone: (907) 283-4850 POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in opposition to the confirmation of Dr. John White to the Board of Fisheries. GRACIE KENDALL P.O. Box 2523 Soldotna, Alaska 99669 Telephone: (907) 262-6130 POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in opposition to the confirmation of Dr. John White to the Board of Fisheries. RUSSELL NELSON, appointee to the Board of Fisheries P.O. Box 190 Dillingham, Alaska 99576 Telephone: (907) 842-2370 POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony and answered questions of the committee members regarding his appointment to the Board of Fisheries. ACTION NARRATIVE TAPE 98-51, SIDE A Number 001 CO-CHAIRMAN SCOTT OGAN called the House Resources Standing Committee meeting to order at 2:10 p.m. Members present at the call to order were Representatives Hudson, Ogan, Masek, Dyson, and Green. Representatives Williams, Barnes and Joule arrived at 2:15 p.m., and 2:18 p.m. and 2:18 p.m., respectively. Representative Nicholia arrived sometime after the call to order. CONFIRMATION HEARING CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN announced the first order of business was the confirmation hearing of Mary McDowell to the Alaska Commercial Fisheries Entry Commission. CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN asked Ms. McDowell to tell the committee members why she is qualified for the job. Number 020 MARY McDOWELL, appointee to the Alaska Commercial Fisheries Entry Commission, stated there are several important quasi-judicial traits important as a member of the commission. They include the following: being fair, objective, thorough, committed to due process, understanding and following the law, working well with people, and having a solid understanding of Alaska's fisheries. She has hands-on experience in fisheries as a small business operator providing fish-buying services to the village of Angoon, where she learned about the importance of fisheries to individual fishermen and their families. She also worked 16 sessions for the Alaska State Legislature focusing mostly on fisheries issues. She spent four years as the aide to the House Resources Standing Committee and two years as the aide to the Senate Special Committee on Fisheries. Her work with the legislature provided a basic understanding of Alaska's statutes and fish and game policy matters. In addition, she worked three years with the lieutenant governor and governor on fisheries issues which broadened her understanding of the executive branch by working with the Department of Fish and Game and other individuals around the state. She has served for about four months now with the commission and has found that her background has prepared her well for the job. She is committed to working hard to serve Alaska as a member of the commission. CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN announced the arrival of Representative Bill Williams. Number 080 CO-CHAIRMAN BILL HUDSON noted that he knew Ms. McDowell when she was an aide in the legislature. He found her to be very thorough and professional. The commission is looking for people who are balanced and judicial. He believes that Ms. McDowell would probably provide those types of services. Number 089 REPRESENTATIVE BILL WILLIAMS noted that Ms. McDowell worked for him for two years as aide to the House Resources Standing Committee. She was very thorough. Number 110 REPRESENTATIVE BEVERLY MASEK stated, based on Ms. McDowell's background in Juneau and her knowledge of the statutes, she thinks she would be pretty qualified. Number 120 DICK HOFFMAN, President, Alaska Trollers Association, testified in Juneau. He has known Ms. McDowell in various capacities since her time in the legislature. He has always found her to be a tireless worker in both the hours she puts in and her efforts to make a good decision. For those reason, she is a good candidate. The Alaska Trollers Association urges the committee members to vote in favor of her confirmation. Number 135 JERRY McCUNE, Representative, United Fishermen of Alaska, testified in Juneau. He has personally known Ms. McDowell for the last six years. She is very fair, a very hard worker, and very well qualified. She knows the industry and the administrative side of the industry. The United Fishermen of Alaska wholeheartedly support her confirmation. CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN wondered whether there is a reason for the glowing recommendations. MR. McCUNE replied there is no hidden agenda. She has been very helpful, honest, and fair as a commissioner when she has had to review a case. CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN stated, "When you do something wrong and you loose your license, you're not going--because she knows you she'll yank your license." MR. McCUNE replied, "No." CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN announced that Representatives Joule and Barnes have joined the meeting. Number 160 REPRESENTATIVE FRED DYSON made a motion to recommend Mary McDowell for her appointment. Number 166 REPRESENTATIVE RAMONA BARNES objected and explained the process is to report the recommendation out of the committee, not to recommend a nomination. Number 179 REPRESENTATIVE DYSON made a motion to recommend that the appointment of Mary McDowell to the Alaska Commercial Fisheries Entry Commission be forwarded to a joint session for consideration. There being no objection, it was so moved. CONFIRMATION HEARING CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN announced the next order of business was the confirmation hearing of Robert Churchill to the Board of Game. CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN asked Mr. Churchill to tell the committee members why they should consider him favorable. Number 199 ROBERT CHURCHILL, appointee to the Board of Game, testified in Juneau. He has hunted since he was 10 or 11 years old. He spends a fair amount of time both hunting and fishing. He has been a member of the Anchorage Fish and Game Advisory Committee for the last seven years. He was chairman for two years. He thinks he can do a good job of meeting the mandates in order to provide the sustainable resources for Alaskans. He wants to do that for himself, his family, his children, and hopefully their children. Number 213 REPRESENTATIVE BARNES asked Mr. Churchill whether it is correct to say that he has been a member of the Board of Game for awhile now. MR. CHURCHILL replied, "That's correct." REPRESENTATIVE BARNES asked Mr. Churchill whether he was part of the meeting that adopted the "bone-in-bone-out" regulation for the Holitna River drainage. MR. CHURCHILL replied, "No." He was present when the issues were considered in Fairbanks, but he was not on the board when it was originally considered. REPRESENTATIVE BARNES asked Mr. Churchill whether he was at the meeting in Anchorage when the board reconsidered it. MR. CHURCHILL replied he doesn't believe so. It was discussed in Fairbanks where it was modified by removing parts of the requirements. He cited shortening the period of time as an example. REPRESENTATIVE BARNES asked Mr. Churchill to tell the committee members exactly what his position was on the issue. MR. CHURCHILL stated there was testimony from enforcement that indicated it made their job much easier to deal with the wanton waste problem. There was also testimony from Kevin Saxby from the Department of Law because of the concerns raised by the House Resources Committee. Mr. Saxby and the attorney general both felt that the Board of Game had the authority to enact a meat-on-the- bone regulation. REPRESENTATIVE BARNES asked Mr. Churchill whether Mr. Saxby cited the specific law that gives the Board of Game the authority. MR. CHURCHILL replied, "Not that I remember." REPRESENTATIVE BARNES asked Mr. Churchill to read the highlighted portion of Section 16.30.030 from the Alaska Statutes. MR. CHURCHILL read the following: "(3) "edible meat" means, in the case of big game animals, the meat of the ribs, neck, brisket, front quarters as far as the distal joint of the radius-ulna (knee), hindquarters as far as the distal joint of the tibia-fibula (hock), and that portion of the animal between the front and hindquarters; in the case of wild fowl, the meat of the breast; however, "edible meat" of big game or wild fowl does not include (A) meat of the head; (B) meat that has been damaged and made inedible by the method of taking; (C) bones, sinew, and incidental meat reasonably lost as a result of boning or a close trimming of the bones;" REPRESENTATIVE BARNES asked Mr. Churchill, after reading the section, whether the Board of Game has the authority to require the bone be carried out of any game management unit in the state. MR. CHURCHILL replied yes based on the advise from the attorney general's office. REPRESENTATIVE BARNES asked Mr. Churchill whether he believes what the law says. MR. CHURCHILL replied that is not what he is saying. REPRESENTATIVE BARNES stated either the law does not say what it says, or he is relying on an opinion of an attorney general that may or may not be accurate. It is simply the opinion of one attorney. She has an opposite opinion from Legislative Legal Services. She asked Mr. Churchill whether he believes the law or what an attorney general says. MR. CHURCHILL replied he believes that the attorney general is accurate. REPRESENTATIVE BARNES said, "Mr. Chairman, in no way will I support this person's appointment, and I will do everything in my power to see that he is not appointed to the Board of Game." Number 297 REPRESENTATIVE MASEK asked Mr. Churchill how he felt about the initiative to stop people from using snares. MR. CHURCHILL replied he was absolutely against it. REPRESENTATIVE MASEK asked Mr. Churchill how he feels about initiatives for the purposes of managing fish and game. MR. CHURCHILL replied he is not in favor of managing fish and game by the ballot box. In Fairbanks, a great deal of testimony was taken in regards to using snares. The testimony against using snares clearly did not represent the facts. The people can manage fish and game by the ballot box through electing legislators. Number 322 CO-CHAIRMAN HUDSON stated Representative Barnes is reading the law as it is clear on its face. He understands that as a board member if something is hazy or ambiguous a member should ask for an opinion from an attorney in order to make a decision. He asked Mr. Churchill whether he and the other board members sat down and discussed the law as it is currently written. MR. CHURCHILL replied he discussed it with Kevin Saxby. He said, "To be real candid I'm sure that we'll get a legal opinion from a judge that tells the board whether they had that authority when they adopted it. I didn't have the benefit of listening to those discussion or participating in them." It might turn out that this is something that the board doesn't have the authority to do. If so, obviously he would support that position as a member of the board. He said, "I understand my obligation to...to big decisions consistent with the law of the state of Alaska. And I take it very seriously. I would never do anything to fly in the face consciously of those laws. But, like I said, I was not there when those decisions were made. If the law was discussed and was presented with a situation where it was an accomplished fact...As I said earlier, I think we've tried to do some things as the Board of Game to deal with the most objectional parts of that. We've eliminated the requirement to bring out the ribs. We've reduced the amount of time involved after October 1. That it's no longer required to...to bring out the meat on the bone. So, no I don't want to appear that I would arrogantly fly in the face of the law. It's not--I would never consciously do that. But, I've never been in the position of...of having to vote at the get-go to make these areas an area requirement." Number 364 REPRESENTATIVE BARNES asked Mr. Churchill whether it is correct that the meeting in Fairbanks was in March. MR. CHURCHILL replied, "Yes." REPRESENTATIVE BARNES stated the bone-in-bone-out issue came out as a direct result of the Legislative Council Committee challenging the Board of Game's authority to write a regulation that conflicts with a statute. MR. CHURCHILL replied there were a number of proposals dealing with the meat-on-the-bone issue. REPRESENTATIVE BARNES stated she took the position of the Legislative Council Committee herself to the Board of Game in the fall and stated very clearly that the board had violated the law. The board said that it would take the issue up at the March meeting. It just didn't appear at the March meeting. MR. CHURCHILL replied he is aware of the controversy regarding the meat-on-the-bone issue. REPRESENTATIVE BARNES stated somebody must have told him what the law was otherwise he would have gotten it to read it himself, contrary to what he stated earlier in response to Representative Hudson's question. MR. CHURCHILL replied that is not what he intended to say. He knows the law. He knows how it is written. But, he is not an attorney and he is not skilled at interpreting laws or the other laws that relate to a law. REPRESENTATIVE BARNES asked Mr. Churchill whether the law on its face needs an interpretation. MR. CHURCHILL replied an interpretation was asked by the attorney general's office. He did not ask for it and had no reason to argue with it. REPRESENTATIVE BARNES stated only the legislature has the power to manage fish and game in Alaska. The legislature delegates some of its responsibilities through the law to the Board of Game. It does not delegate power to the board to write laws. It delegates power to live within the laws adopted by the legislature. The board is to carry out the policies that the legislature sets. There is a law on the book that is clear on its face, and it is certainly clear on its face to any three year old who can read, but Mr. Churchill still says that he would rely on the advise of the attorney general rather than the advise of what's in the law. The attorney general has no power. MR. CHURCHILL replied he would like to have the legal issues resolved. Obviously, any decision he has made or will make in the future he wants it to be consistent with the laws of the state. REPRESENTATIVE BARNES stated Mr. Churchill indicated earlier that he is sure that the issue will be challenged in court. Anytime a citizen challenges something in court it costs him money. Anytime the legislature challenges a citizen in court it costs the state money. Neither should happen when a law is clear on its face. Number 438 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN stated Representative Barnes was here when the law was made and she went to great lengths to tell the Board of Game that there is a problem, and the board just thumbed its nose at the Legislative Council Committee. CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN asked Mr. Churchill how he feels about the money spent on the consultant from outside who studied the wolves and intensive management. It is an area of the law that is not enforced when it is clear that the legislature likes intensive management activities, including predation control when necessary. He asked Mr. Churchill, if there was a threat of a tourist boycott, would he vote on the side of managing game according to the way the legislature intended or would he vote on the side of keeping more tourists from coming to Alaska. MR. CHURCHILL replied he is on the record as supporting predator control. As a member of the Anchorage Fish and Game Advisory Committee, it put together a pretty good predator control plan. His actions since being a member of the Board of Game have clearly shown his position as well. Predator control in Alaska is real important. At the Board of Game hearings he frequently asks about the populations. He is concerned because he hears from biologists and citizens that there appears to be a significant increase in the predator populations - wolf and bear. The anecdotal evidence seems to support that they are knocking down ungulate populations and in some areas extensively. Absolutely, he supports predator control. Similar to Representative Masek's question, people need the tools necessary to allow them to balance the populations in their areas. Number 488 CO-CHAIRMAN HUDSON asked Mr. Churchill whether he hunts. MR. CHURCHILL replied, "Yes." He has hunted both ungulates and birds since he was relatively young. CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN asked Mr. Churchill whether he is familiar with Article VIII, Section 4, of the state constitution. MR. CHURCHILL replied somewhat. CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN asked Mr. Churchill whether he can paraphrase what it says. MR. CHURCHILL replied it means the responsible management of fish and game for harvest. CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN asked Mr. Churchill whether he is familiar with the language, "subject to preferences among beneficial uses." MR. CHURCHILL replied he knows that the language is in it. CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN asked Mr. Churchill to articulate what it means. MR. CHURCHILL replied it means that when looking at game populations the board might be making decisions that give an advantage to local folks for example. It is similar to the decision to make a number of the moose cow hunts in the Anchorage area for residents only when it used to be for both residents and nonresidents. The testimony indicated that the residents wanted a greater opportunity to harvest the moose. CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN explained a use is like sport hunting or fishing, while a user is like a geographical location. He asked Mr. Churchill in a time of shortage what would his priority be for the user of fish and game. MR. CHURCHILL replied he grew up in a rural area and put meat on the table by hunting. There were also folks that didn't appear to have the same need. He has mixed feelings about it. He believes in managing the resources in a way that makes them healthy so that there isn't a time of shortage. CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN asked Mr. Churchill whether he is aware of the Article VIII, Section 3, of the state constitution - the common use clause. MR. CHURCHILL replied, "Absolutely." CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN asked Mr. Churchill to explain his understanding of the clause. MR. CHURCHILL replied it goes back to the basic belief that fish and game are here for all of us. For example, no single person owns a moose, until someone shoots it. In Western culture, it goes back to the Magna Carta to ensure that people have the opportunity to feed themselves off of the fish and game populations. CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN stated it sounds like Mr. Churchill is familiar with the public trust doctrine. MR. CHURCHILL replied a little bit. Number 853 REPRESENTATIVE DYSON referred to Mr. Churchill's resume and asked him what is Alaska Resources Consulting. MR. CHURCHILL replied it is a business that he started up a few years ago as a consultant for human resource issues. It is pretty much dormant at this point, but he does have the ability through a business license to help folks with business problems. REPRESENTATIVE DYSON asked Mr. Churchill whether it has anything to do with natural resources. MR. CHURCHILL replied, "No." REPRESENTATIVE DYSON asked Mr. Churchill, in light of the strong opinions of Representative Barnes, which he agrees with, would he in the future see that the board is bound by opinions delivered by the attorney general's office. MR. CHURCHILL replied he has a high respect for Kevin Saxby from the Department of Law, but he will start digging into the issue and find out everything that he can. His intent is not to fly in the face of the legislature. If the Board of Game has done something that is not legal... REPRESENTATIVE DYSON asked Mr. Churchill whether he could just say no he would not feel bound by them, but take them under advisement and seek other opinions. MR. CHURCHILL replied, "Yes." Number 583 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN asked Mr. Churchill what was the basis for Mr. Saxby's recommendation when the statute is so clear. MR. CHURCHILL replied Mr. Saxby indicated that he had researched the laws and discussed the issue with the attorney general. Number 605 DICK BISHOP, Vice President, Alaska Outdoor Council (AOC), testified in Juneau. The AOC board of directors recommends the confirmation of Robert Churchill and Walter Sampson to the Board of Game. It does not make a recommendation on the confirmation of Eric Williamson. In addition, the board recommends the confirmation of Dr. John White and Russell Nelson to the Board of Fisheries. The recommendations are the result of the collective judgements and experiences of the board members. Number 627 CO-CHAIRMAN HUDSON made a motion to advance the recommendation of Robert Churchill to the Board of Game with individual recommendations. There being no objection, it was so moved. CONFIRMATION HEARING CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN announced the next order of business was the confirmation hearing of Walter Sampson to the Board of Game. Number 634 WALTER SAMPSON, appointee to the Board of Game, testified via teleconference in Kotzebue. He is a lifelong resident of Alaska. He was born and raised in Noorvik. He has been with the Nana Regional Corporation for the past 25 years. It has been a challenge to him for the past three years as a member of the Board of Game, especially coming from a culture of sharing, giving, and taking only what is needed, versus a culture that provides for those types of things by laws. He is not professing that he knows every law on the book, but he tries to deal with them whenever he can. He tries to get a good background knowledge of what the laws say. Having not gone to college, he still lacks for some educational background in reading the laws. MR. SAMPSON further stated he thinks that the board has made some accomplishments over the last three years. It has expanded the opportunity for the public to participate through the advisory councils. It has extended its meetings to regional centers to give more opportunities to folks who are unable to make it to Fairbanks or Anchorage. It has expanded the opportunity for its members to go out to areas that the public cannot come in from, such as Glennallen and Tyonek. People address their issues to the board members over the resources and sometimes use them as a means to vent frustrations. He hopes the changes that the board has made can be implemented for the next three years. He understands the concern of the cost for regional board meetings, but suggested looking at the issues and their cost differentials. Number 692 REPRESENTATIVE BARNES asked Mr. Sampson whether he was at the special Board of Game meeting in July. MR. SAMPSON replied, "Yes." REPRESENTATIVE BARNES asked Mr. Sampson to state the reason for the board meeting. MR. SAMPSON replied it was the issue in regards to the.... TAPE 98-51, SIDE B Number 000 REPRESENTATIVE BARNES asked Mr. Sampson whether he recalls that the board debated approximately one hour before it allowed her to deliver the message from the Legislative Council Committee. MR. SAMPSON replied, "Yes." REPRESENTATIVE BARNES asked Mr. Sampson whether he thinks that any time a legislator comes before the Board of Game to deliver a message on behalf of the legislature that it should take an hour to debate whether or not the message should be delivered. MR. SAMPSON replied he doesn't think so. The board also recognized that if it gave an opportunity for one group it also had to give an opportunity for the rest of the residents of Alaska. REPRESENTATIVE BARNES stated she came before the board as an elected official, not as a special interest group. She came as an elected official representing the legislature yet the members of the board debated whether or not she was a special interest group because it was concerned about giving time to a special interest group. As an elected representative by the people of Alaska, she does not believe that she is in the area of a special interest group. After extensive debate, it was decided that she could deliver the message. She stated she will never forget that as long as she lives. She asked Mr. Sampson, after delivering the message and before the meeting in the fall, whether or whether not he questioned in his mind that the law is clear on its face relating to the bone-in-bone-out law. MR. SAMPSON replied he thinks the law is clear. REPRESENTATIVE BARNES stated the only power that the board has is what has been delegated by the legislative branch through the law. Mr. Sampson has an obligation to go back to the board and raise the issue again to undo the law. She asked Mr. Sampson now that he recognizes that the law is clear on its face whether he feels an obligation as a board member to bring the issue back before the board recognizing that the only power of the board has been delegated through laws by the legislature. MR. SAMPSON replied if the board wishes to go through the process, it can do it. If there is an attorney that says there is room in the law, what else can you do not being an attorney to interpret what it says? he asked. REPRESENTATIVE BARNES stated she is not an attorney either. In fact, she is glad that she is not an attorney. She is not the best educated person in the world either, but she can read. "You don't have to be an attorney to read a law that's clear on its face," she declared. As a legislator, she has attorneys telling her day in and day out different opinions. But it is up to her to make up her mind what is correct. Number 123 REPRESENTATIVE REGGIE JOULE asked Mr. Sampson, prior to his involvement on the Board of Game, how active were the advisory councils with regards to their access to the board. MR. SAMPSON replied at that point in time the advisory councils were not really active. They didn't really interact with the Board of Game. Today, the participation of the councils are honored at the Board of Game meetings. REPRESENTATIVE JOULE asked Mr. Sampson whether the decisions that the board is making are the results from all perspectives because of the councils involvement. MR. SAMPSON replied, "Yes." The local advisory councils represent different interest groups and have a voice at the board meetings. REPRESENTATIVE JOULE asked Mr. Sampson whether he feels it is a result of the participation by the local advisory committees. MR. SAMPSON replied, "Yes." The board wants to continue that process. It is only fair and gives an opportunity for folks who cannot come to the meetings as a means to speak to the board. REPRESENTATIVE JOULE stated he has known Mr. Sampson for a lot of years. He has a lot to contribute and his education does not require an apology. His contribution has been tremendous. The people at home are real comfortable with just the way he is. MR. SAMPSON thanked Representative Joule for the recognition. Number 188 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN asked Mr. Sampson whether he is familiar with Article VIII, Section 3, of the state constitution - the common use clause. MR. SAMPSON replied he is partially familiar with it. It deals with fish and game uses for all Alaskans. CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN stated, "Reserved for the common use." MR. SAMPSON replied, "Yes." CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN stated a board member takes an oath to defend the constitution and asked Mr. Sampson whether he is willing to defend it. MR. SAMPSON replied, "Yes." He tries to balance things for all interest groups - all Alaskans. In that manner, he fits within the Board of Game. Number 206 CO-CHAIRMAN HUDSON commended Mr. Sampson for his four years of army duty in Vietnam and for his volunteer work. Someone who is willing to volunteer his time to the Board of Game has a strong commitment to serve the state. MR. SAMPSON thanked Representative Hudson for the recognition. It is part of his culture and the way he grew up. His grandmother told him to help anybody who needs it. Number 230 REPRESENTATIVE IRENE NICHOLIA stated she has also known Mr. Sampson for quite some time. She sat with him as a board member of the Alaska Federation of Natives (AFN). She knows him through conversations on statewide policies and issues, the issues that affect the lives of the people who live in Alaska. He would be an asset to the board and would do a good job. Despite the negative questions, he would overcome them and contribute a lot to the board. She supports his confirmation. Number 254 PATRICK WRIGHT, Chair, Anchorage Fish and Game Advisory Committee, testified via teleconference in Anchorage. He is here to recommend the positive confirmations of three nominees to the Board of Game - Walter Sampson, Robert Churchill and Eric Williamson; and one to the Board of Fisheries - Russell Nelson. MR. WRIGHT further stated Mr. Sampson has often testified to the Board of Game on behalf of the Anchorage Fish and Game Advisory Committee and has always found that he is dedicated to the public process. He has pursued clarification of wildlife issues by asking questions of the advisory committee representatives to get local input for regulatory concerns. MR. WRIGHT stated he has worked with Mr. Churchill directly on the Anchorage Fish and Game Advisory Committee. He has found him to be inspirational in always making the public feel free to express their concerns of the natural relations. His public relations and management skills will certainly be an asset to the Board of Game. MR. WRIGHT stated Mr. Williamson brought special insight as a big game guide and river guide with nonconsumptive clients, as a member of the Anchorage Fish and Game Advisory Committee. MR. WRIGHT stated Mr. Nelson has been on the Nushagak Fish and Game Advisory Committee and has worked with other advisory committees both rural and urban to protect the resources in the Central Bristol Bay Fish and Game Reserve Proposal considering the economic dependence of commercial fisheries and the emerging tourism there. Number 309 CO-CHAIRMAN HUDSON made a motion to advance the nomination of Walter Sampson to the Board of Game from the committee with individual recommendations. There being no objection, it was so moved. CONFIRMATION HEARING CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN announced the next order of business was the confirmation hearing of Doctor John R. White to the Board of Fisheries. Number 322 JOHN R. WHITE, Doctor, appointee to the Board of Fisheries, testified via teleconference in Bethel. He is a 25-year resident of Alaska and a 24-year commercial fisherman on the Kuskokwim River and Kuskokwim Bay. He has served on the Board of Fisheries for the preceding three years. He cited the things that he has participated in while on the board that he thinks are notable: shellfish depletion, Norton Sound chum salmon, cod fisheries in the Gulf of Alaska, an open point herring fishery in Sitka Sound, strident conflict in Cook Inlet between Area M and the Alaska Yukon-Kuskokwim area, and the Copper River Delta users of the resources. He always tries to use the best science available, to be fair to all parties, and to make balanced decisions. That is what a good board member has to do. He has been very involved in the initiation of the sustainable fisheries project by the board. It will hopefully mature one day so that the board and public can have access and confidence of the objective measurement tools for salmon stock and management success. Under his chairmanship, the present board has been using a committee system to interact with the public to broaden their participation in the process, and to use the board's time more economically. The board is meeting over 100 days a year now when including the committees it uses to tackle the broad sweep of problems before it. The committee system allows each board member and members of the public to garner better clarity of the issues. Finally, the Board of Fisheries will face many challenges in the future. It is staring down the barrel of more allocation decisions that are equally contentious. It is in constant need of more and better research. They are formidable challenges, and he looks forward to facing them for the next three years. CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN wondered why Dr. White or anybody would want to volunteer another term with the Board of Fisheries. It is a tremendous sacrifice professionally with over 100 days of meetings. Number 400 CO-CHAIRMAN HUDSON stated there seems to be a spattering of opposition to Dr. White's reappointment from the Kenai Peninsula in reference to the failure to hold a meeting there. He asked Dr. White why he made that decision. DR. WHITE replied the decision was never made to not hold the meeting. It was under review at the request of the members of the board. The Board of Fisheries heard concerns from the legislators from the area and Mayor Navarre in regards to representation between the Kenai and Mat-Su Valley users, as well as other concerns. The meeting is to be next February as always including the additional element of holding public testimony in the Mat-Su Valley to try to find a balance. Number 428 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN stated, according to his experience, fish allocation issues sometime come to the brink of war. They tend to be more contentious than any other issue in the legislature. He asked Dr. White whether he is aware of Article VIII, Section 4, of the state constitution - the sustained yield principle. He also asked Dr. White to say what it means to him. DR. WHITE replied the sustained yield principle is interpreted differently by people. It goes to the heart of the conservation debates that come before the board, and many times those debates are shrouded for allocation determinations. Sustained yield to him means that for perpetuity the opportunity for fish and game resources will be available to the citizens and that there will be adequate populations re-breeding for their reuse. CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN asked Dr. White whether he is aware of Article VIII, Section 3, of the state constitution - the common use clause. DR. WHITE replied he is very aware of it. The board members were presented with a document on the public trust doctrine at a joint meeting. He has also been following the debates in the legislature. Number 467 BEN ELLIS, Executive Director, Kenai River Sport Fishing Association, testified via teleconference in Kenai. The association supports the confirmation of Dr. White and Russell Nelson to the Board of Fisheries. As chairman of the board, Dr. White has been establishing the groundwork through the sustainable fisheries project to ensure that the salmon resources are managed in a manner to provide sustainable salmon runs for generations to come. His dedication to the process is unfaltering. It is a project that will benefit not only the resource but all users. His grasp of the fisheries issues and the ramifications of those issues on spawning grounds is unsurpassed. He has earned the respect of fishery scientists and lay fishermen. A second term will allow him to bring to fruition his most worthwhile effort. MR. ELLIS stated the association also supports Russell Nelson to the Board of Fisheries. There is no where else in the world like Bristol Bay for harvesting sockeye salmon. On average the tributaries of the bay produce the largest returns of sockeye in the world. Therefore, every governor since 1974 has placed a representative from the bay on the board, and Mr. Nelson will continue that rich tradition. As a former commercial drift fisherman and herring and salmon spotting pilot, Mr. Nelson is currently the land manager of a Dillingham Native corporation interacting with recreational anglers. He brings that perspective too. He is a man of integrity and has the respect of many people in the bay and Native community. Mr. Nelson is also an avid supporter of the sustainable fisheries project and is looking forward to working with the other board members on the issue. JOE HANES testified via teleconference in Kenai. He has been fishing the Kenai River for 30 years. He was born and raised in Alaska. He has been guiding for the last 20 years and has been involved in the board process since 1985 as a citizen. He has been dealing with Dr. White since his inception on the board and has found his insight into the fisheries to be exemplary. He is thrilled to hear that he will be devoting more time to the process. The fisheries on the Kenai Peninsula are in deep trouble. There are severe imbalances. Dr. White has the insight and fortitude to take the bull by its horns and fix the fisheries so that they will be here for both commercial and sport users for years to come. MR. HANES stated he also supports the confirmation of Russell Nelson to the Board of Fisheries. The size and importance of the fishery in Bristol Bay speaks for itself. Number 516 MYRA OLSEN, Chair, Lower Bristol Bay Advisory Committee, testified via teleconference in Anchorage. She is a Bristol Bay drift gillnetter and subsistence user. She is speaking in support of Dr. White and Russell Nelson's confirmation. She has often been frustrated at the lack of meaningful participation by the people until last November's board meeting in Naknek where she first saw the effectiveness of Dr. White's leadership in brining all the stakeholders together to build consensus on the proposals that affect us all. Finally, there is a way to regulate fisheries taking into consideration the impacts of legislation, the conservation of the resources, and the sustained yield principle as a mandate for good decisions. She appreciates Dr. White's leadership and urges his confirmation to continue the positive influences that he has begun. MS. OLSEN stated Russell Nelson is intelligent, articulate, and committed to whatever he chooses to work at. He brings a well- rounded presence. He will be a valuable addition to the board. She has known Mr. Nelson his entire life and has always been impressed with his fairness, hard work, and integrity. It would be hard to find a better person to serve on the board. She supports wholeheartedly his nomination. Number 541 HAZEL NELSON testified via teleconference in Anchorage. She was born and raised in Egegik. She has lived and worked in Anchorage since the early 1980s as a representative of the Becharof Corporation. In regards to Dr. White, she has grown to appreciate his ability to improve the board process. He is an excellent chairman and board member. He is always trying to make sure that the regular fisherman is heard - those without a spokesperson. It is important in being fair to the process. She participated at the Bristol Bay meeting in Naknek and got to see how well the committee process can work. It utilized the fishermen, the advisory committees, and the board very effectively. A lot of it had to do with the chairman allowing everyone to work out the issues amongst everyone else so that there was more input into the process resulting in an agreement. It also kept the board from coming up with something that nobody would have liked and saved a lot of time. In addition, not many people have the courage to move forward with a political hot potato like the sustainable fisheries effort. Those that work in the regulatory arena know that if the initiative is not taken to address the problems of the weak stocks everybody will pay down the road. The issue can be worked out in the regions on a case-by-case basis and Dr. White will continue his dedication to fairly carry the issue through the public process. MS. NELSON stated, in regards to Russell Nelson, he is fair and objective. She has known him for most of her life. He has been involved in fishery resource concerns for a long time. His experience has enabled him to see resource management from a broad perspective of user groups within Bristol Bay. His work with Choggiung Limited is a good example of how a Native corporation can work with different user groups. His track record shows that the resources come first. He will do his best to listen at the board meetings and to understand the issues from all the perspectives. Number 588 ALVIN PEDERSEN testified via teleconference in Chignik Lagoon. He has worked with the board process for many years. He was involved with the statewide implementation of the much needed State Waters Cod Fishery. He supports the appointment of Dr. White and Russell Nelson. Dr. White has done an excellent job as chairman and board member. He is well respected, fair, and does a very professional job in representing all user groups. MR. PEDERSEN further stated Russell Nelson is well known in the Bristol Bay region. He is fair, well-respected, and would do a great job in representing all user groups. MR. PEDERSEN further stated both appointments are supported by the Lake and Peninsula Borough, Chignik Lagoon Village Council, Chignik Advisory Committee, Chignik Marketing Association, and Chignik Seiners Association. Number 603 RICHARD SHARP testified via teleconference in Chignik. The Chignik City Council passed a resolution supporting the appointment of Dr. White and Russell Nelson. Number 612 TONY GRAGORIO testified via teleconference in Chignik. He has served on the Chignik Advisory Committee for 10 years and has worked with the board process. Dr. White has helped to bring regions together with the committee process. He appreciates the ability for each committee to get together and talk about the issues. There isn't always conclusion, but it is a step in the right direction. He thanked the Board of Fisheries for the cod fishery. Number 624 REUBEN HANKE testified via teleconference in Kenai. He is speaking on behalf of Dr. White and Russell Nelson and recommends their confirmation to the Board of Fisheries. Number 629 ANDY SZCZESNY testified via teleconference in Kenai. He is a fly fishing guide for trout with a business in Cooper Landing. He is in favor of Dr. White's appointment. He has been a big help on the upper river trout issues. He has done a great job. Number 633 BILL SULLIVAN testified via teleconference in Kenai. He is an 18- year registered voter and resident of the Kenai Peninsula. He feels that he has the unenviable position of enjoying Dr. White on a personal level, but finds it increasingly difficult to relate to him on a professional level. He feels it would be irresponsible to suggest that Dr. White has not contributed generous amounts of his time and energy, but he also feels strongly that the usage of his time and talents have come and gone. The Governor is on record for promising to restore balance to the board yet it currently is made up of three members from Southcentral, and six out of the seven members' expertise is invested with salmon. This does not denote any balance in geographic representation or representation of the full spectrum of multi-species issues that the board is challenged with. In addition, his rewrite of the board's process distanced the public in the offset. As a board of fish appointee, Dr. White should be asked to explain his active participation in orchestrating a special out-of-cycle board meeting to review the Cook Inlet salmon fishery a few short months after Cook Inlet had gone through the entire Board of Fisheries proposal process on its regular cycle. The additional meeting was a significant cost to the tax payers and individuals who chose to participate. Dr. White should be asked to justify his participation in a board vote of 4 to 3 to carry the out-of-cycle proposals forward followed by a 6 to 1 vote the following morning to kill the proposals. This record setting does nothing to promote participation by the public in the process, unless one is a stakeholder from the camp that the board has undeniably waited in favor of. In addition, he is opposed to Dr. White's reappointment because of his intended use of the subcommittee process pushed forward as the chairman of the board. He feels that the board is record building to justify the actions destined to come out of these subcommittees at the February-1999 meeting. He feels that the board is record building in order to claim stakeholder participation in the process while enabling the board to push through its own agenda on Cook Inlet issues. At the recent February board meeting Dr. White put every proposal into committee process when history speaks well of past chairs effectively doing business without going to this extreme. Again, his point is that the committee process has merit, but its recent use by Dr. White is diluting the participation by the public and in an unprecedented manner diluting the input of the advisory committees. This is a classic strategy to divide and conquer and does nothing to endure a board with a lengthening record of suspect actions. He feels that Dr. White has made a valuable contribution to the board, but feels even stronger that the direction the board is taking under his participation as vice chair and chair does not serve the public process constructively. The legislature would be well advised to oppose his confirmation. CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN asked Mr. Sullivan whether he is representing himself. MR. SULLIVAN replied, "Correct." Number 690 GRACIE KENDALL testified via teleconference in Kenai. She is against the reappointment of John White. He has already served one term on the board and is not objective. He needs to move aside and allow someone else to serve. The board alienates the public process and advisory committees and Dr. White is confusing allocation with conservation. He seems to want to allocate more fish to sport guides above and beyond biological escapement goals for the Kenai River which encourages more habitat destruction and more unlimited guides. There are already 400 registered guides and about 75 that aren't registered on the Kenai River alone for last year. Dr. White wants the coastal communities to choose between commercial fishers in Cook Inlet and commercial fishers in the river. There are too many guides commercializing within the river. If it continues, the fisheries will be destroyed.... TAPE 98-52, SIDE A Number 000 MS. KENDALL continued. He is biased against Cook Inlet fishers and should give someone else a chance to serve who is more objective. She thinks that the Board of Fisheries is a joke. There needs to be objective and fair people on the board and Dr. White is not one of them. Number 016 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN asked Ms. Kendall whether Dr. White is against commercial drift fishers in Cook Inlet. MS. KENDALL replied she is talking about commercial fishers in Cook Inlet versus the in-river commercial sport guides. CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN stated there are those in the upper Cook Inlet area who are advocating that sustained yield is not being maintained on some streams because of intercept fisheries and other pressures being put on its management, especially in regards to Kenai River red salmon. Members of the Department of Fish and Game have admitted to him that the upper Cook Inlet is managed by default when there is a large return of red salmon to the Kenai River. He asked Dr. White to comment on the issue. Number 053 DR. WHITE replied he has commented a lot already. He thinks his decisions have been pretty fair. They have tried to address allocation between the central district drift fleet and the in- river users in the Mat-Su Valley. The best answer to the sustained yield question is the adequacy of the science that sorts out the stocks while they are involved in the set net fishery of the northern district and the drift fishery in the central district, and the ability to distinguish the stocks and their destinations. That science isn't there. Any measure of how to achieve that isn't there. It is one of the things that he hopes to come out of the back end of the sustainable fisheries project - long-term research plans that actually figure out the research needed for the stock separation. Otherwise, fighting over who has the responsibility to conserve will result in no stocks. The concern about the sustain ability of the stock is very real right now. CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN asked Dr. White how far off the set nets run on the Kenai Peninsula. DR. WHITE replied he would have to find the answer in a book. CONFIRMATION HEARING CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN announced the next order of business was the confirmation hearing of Russell Nelson to the Board of Fisheries. Number 123 RUSSELL NELSON, appointee to the Board of Fisheries, testified via teleconference in Dillingham. He is supportive of the board process. If appointed, he will work hard for the conservation and development of fishery resources. As a member of the Nushagak Fish and Game Advisory Council, the Dillingham City Planing Commission, and former chairman of the Alaska Rural Communications Council and present member, he has shown his interest in community service. He understands the time and commitment involved to be a competent member of the board. He also feels his resume shows that his abilities and experiences are consistent with the responsibilities of the position. He has the support of his family and employer. He has discussed the travel away from Bristol Bay with each of them and both have agreed to his involvement. He is in excellent health, enjoys traveling, and meeting people. He would thank the committee members for their consideration of his qualifications for the position. Number 156 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN asked Mr. Nelson whether he is familiar with Article VIII, Section 3, of the state constitution - common use clause. MR. NELSON replied, "Yes." CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN asked Mr. Nelson whether he is familiar with Article VIII, Section 4, of the state constitution - sustained yield principle. MR. NELSON replied, "Yes." CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN asked Mr. Nelson what his interpretation is of the provision in the sustained yield principle, "subject to preferences among beneficial uses." MR. NELSON replied he believes it is a good section. Fish and wildlife resources should be available to everyone. In terms of sustained yield, it is important to have enough brood stock. "If you just utilize a resource without conservation, then eventually you're not going to have anything left for everyone to divide up," he stated. He would like to go for a maximum yield depending on what is being harvested and what the rivers can support. Number 202 CO-CHAIRMAN HUDSON made a motion to advance the recommendations of Dr. John R. White, Russell Nelson, and Eric Williamson from the committee. CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN noted that there isn't a quorum. CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN called for a brief at ease. CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN called the meeting back to order. Number 223 CO-CHAIRMAN HUDSON made a motion to advance the recommendations of Dr. John R. White, Russell Nelson and Eric Williamson from the committee. There being no objection, it was so moved. ADJOURNMENT Number 227 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN adjourned the House Resources Standing Committee meeting at 3:55 p.m.