HOUSE RESOURCES STANDING COMMITTEE April 14, 1998 5:10 p.m. MEMBERS PRESENT Representative Bill Hudson, Co-Chairman Representative Scott Ogan, Co-Chairman Representative Beverly Masek, Vice Chair Representative Ramona Barnes Representative Fred Dyson Representative Joe Green Representative Irene Nicholia Representative Reggie Joule MEMBERS ABSENT Representative William K. (Bill) Williams COMMITTEE CALENDAR SENATE BILL NO. 341 "An Act relating to agricultural land; and providing for an effective date." - MOVED SB 341 OUT OF COMMITTEE COMMITTEE SUBSTITUTE FOR SENATE BILL NO. 236(RES) "An Act extending the termination date of the Citizens' Advisory Commission on Federal Areas in Alaska; and providing for an effective date." - MOVED CSSB 236(RES) OUT OF COMMITTEE COMMITTEE SUBSTITUTE FOR SENATE BILL NO. 262(RES) "An Act relating to regulation of hunting and trapping, to the definition of 'sustained yield,' and to controlled use areas." - HEARD AND HELD (* First public hearing) PREVIOUS ACTION BILL: SB 341 SHORT TITLE: AGRICULTURAL LAND BILL FIX SPONSOR(S): STATE AFFAIRS Jrn-Date Jrn-Page Action 3/12/98 2843 (S) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S) 3/12/98 2844 (S) RESOURCES 3/23/98 (S) RES AT 3:30 PM BUTROVICH ROOM 205 3/24/98 (S) RLS AT 11:45 AM FAHRENKAMP RM 203 3/24/98 (S) MINUTE(RLS) 3/24/98 2970 (S) RES RPT 5DP 3/24/98 2970 (S) DP: HALFORD, TAYLOR, LINCOLN, 3/24/98 2970 (S) SHARP, GREEN 3/24/98 2970 (S) ZERO FISCAL NOTE (DNR) 4/01/98 3092 (S) RULES TO CALENDAR 4/1/98 4/01/98 3093 (S) READ THE SECOND TIME 4/01/98 3093 (S) ADVANCED TO THIRD READING UNAN CONSENT 4/01/98 3093 (S) READ THE THIRD TIME SB 341 4/01/98 3094 (S) PASSED Y20 N- 4/01/98 3094 (S) EFFECTIVE DATE(S) SAME AS PASSAGE 4/01/98 3094 (S) ELLIS NOTICE OF RECONSIDERATION 4/02/98 3117 (S) RECONSIDERATION NOT TAKEN UP 4/02/98 3118 (S) TRANSMITTED TO (H) 4/03/98 2865 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S) 4/03/98 2866 (H) RESOURCES 4/09/98 (S) MINUTE(L&C) 4/14/98 (H) RES AT 5:00 PM CAPITOL 124 BILL: SB 236 SHORT TITLE: CITIZENS ADVISORY COM ON FED AREAS IN AK SPONSOR(S): LABOR & COMMERCE Jrn-Date Jrn-Page Action 1/14/98 2194 (S) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S) 1/14/98 2194 (S) RES, FIN 2/20/98 (S) RES AT 3:30 PM BUTROVICH ROOM 205 2/20/98 (S) MINUTE(RES) 3/09/98 (S) RES AT 3:30 PM BUTROVICH ROOM 205 3/09/98 (S) MINUTE(RES) 3/10/98 2806 (S) RES RPT PROPOSED COMMITTEE SUBSTITUTE 5DP SAME TITLE 3/10/98 2806 (S) DP: HALFORD, TORGERSON, SHARP 3/10/98 2806 (S) GREEN, LEMAN 3/10/98 2806 (S) FISCAL NOTE TO SB & PROPOSED COMMITTEE SUBSTITUTE (DNR) 3/27/98 (S) FIN AT 8:00 AM SENATE FINANCE 532 3/27/98 3028 (S) FIN RPT 3DP 2NR (HOUSE RESOURCES STANDING COMMITTEE)PROPOSED COMMITTEE SUBSTITUTE 3/27/98 3028 (S) DP: PEARCE, PHILLIPS, TORGERSON; 3/27/98 3028 (S) NR: ADAMS, DONLEY 3/27/98 3028 (S) PREVIOUS FN (DNR) 3/30/98 (S) RLS AT 4:00 PM FAHRENKAMP RM 203 3/31/98 3069 (S) RULES TO CALENDAR 3/31/98 3/31/98 3070 (S) READ THE SECOND TIME 3/31/98 3070 (S) RES PROPOSED COMMITTEE SUBSTITUTE ADOPTED UNAN CONSENT 3/31/98 3070 (S) ADVANCED TO THIRD READING UNAN CONSENT 3/31/98 3070 (S) READ THE THIRD TIME CSSB 236(RES) 3/31/98 3071 (S) PASSED Y19 N- E1 3/31/98 3071 (S) EFFECTIVE DATE(S) SAME AS PASSAGE 3/31/98 3071 (S) ELLIS NOTICE OF RECONSIDERATION 4/01/98 3096 (S) RECON TAKEN UP - IN THIRD READING 4/01/98 3097 (S) PASSED ON RECONSIDERATION Y19 N1 4/01/98 3097 (S) EFFECTIVE DATE(S) SAME AS PASSAGE 4/01/98 3098 (S) TRANSMITTED TO (H) 4/02/98 2848 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S) 4/02/98 2849 (H) RESOURCES, FINANCE 4/14/98 (H) RES AT 5:00 PM CAPITOL 124 BILL: SB 262 SHORT TITLE: MANAGEMENT OF HUNTING SPONSOR(S): SENATOR(S) TAYLOR Jrn-Date Jrn-Page Action 1/27/98 2318 (S) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S) 1/27/98 2318 (S) RESOURCES 2/23/98 (S) RES AT 3:30 PM BUTROVICH ROOM 205 2/23/98 (S) MINUTE(RES) 3/23/98 (S) RES AT 3:30 PM BUTROVICH ROOM 205 3/24/98 (S) RLS AT 11:45 AM FAHRENKAMP RM 203 3/24/98 (S) MINUTE(RLS) 3/24/98 2969 (S) RES RPT PROPOSED COMMITTEE SUBSTITUTE 5DP 1DNP NEW TITLE 3/24/98 2970 (S) DP: HALFORD, TAYLOR, SHARP, GREEN, 3/24/98 2970 (S) TORGERSON; DNP: LINCOLN 3/24/98 2970 (S) ZERO FISCAL NOTE TO SB & PROPOSED COMMITTEE SUBSTITUTE (F&G) 4/01/98 3092 (S) RULES TO CALENDAR 4/1/98 4/01/98 3092 (S) READ THE SECOND TIME 4/01/98 3093 (S) RES PROPOSED COMMITTEE SUBSTITUTE ADOPTED UNAN CONSENT 4/01/98 3093 (S) ADVANCED TO THIRD READING UNAN CONSENT 4/01/98 3093 (S) READ THE THIRD TIME CSSB 262(RES) 4/01/98 3093 (S) PASSED Y14 N6 4/01/98 3093 (S) ELLIS NOTICE OF RECONSIDERATION 4/02/98 3117 (S) RECONSIDERATION NOT TAKEN UP 4/02/98 3117 (S) TRANSMITTED TO (H) 4/03/98 2865 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S) 4/03/98 2865 (H) RESOURCES, FINANCE 4/14/98 (H) RES AT 5:00 PM CAPITOL 124 WITNESS REGISTER LAURA "JANEY" WINEINGER, Researcher for Senator Lyda Green Alaska State Legislature Capitol Building, Room 125 Juneau, Alaska 99801 Telephone: (907) 465-6600 POSITION STATEMENT: Provided sponsor statement for SB 341. CAROL CARROLL, Director Division of Support Services Department of Natural Resources 400 Willoughby Avenue Juneau, Alaska 99801-1724 Telephone: (907) 465-3502 POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony in support of SB 341. ANNETTE KREITZER, Legislative Assistant to Senator Loren Leman Alaska State Legislature Capitol Building, Room 113 Juneau, Alaska 99801 Telephone: (907) 465-2095 POSITION STATEMENT: Provided sponsor statement for SB 236. STAN LEAPHART, Executive Director Citizens' Advisory Commission on Federal Areas in Alaska 3700 Airport Way Fairbanks, Alaska 99709-4699 Telephone: (907) 451-2775 POSITION STATEMENT: Answered questions of the committee members of SB 236. TINA CUNNING, State-Federal Issues ANILCA Coordinator Department of Fish and Game 333 Raspberry Road Anchorage, Alaska 99518 Telephone: (907) 267-2248 POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony in support of SB 236. MEL KROGSENG, Legislative Administrative Assistant to Senator Robin Taylor Alaska State Legislature Capitol Building, Room 30 Juneau, Alaska 99801 Telephone: (907) 465-3873 POSITION STATEMENT: Provided sponsor statement for SB 262. KEN TAYLOR, Deputy Director Division of Wildlife Conservation Department of Fish and Game P.O. Box 25526 Juneau, Alaska 99802-5526 Telephone: (907) 465-4190 POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony in opposition to SB 262. WAYNE REGELIN, Director Division of Wildlife Conservation Department of Fish and Game P.O. Box 25526 Juneau, Alaska 99802-5526 Telephone: (907) 465-4190 POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony in opposition to SB 262. GABE SAM, Director of Wildlife and Parks Tanana Chiefs Conference, Incorporated 122 First Avenue, Suite 600 Fairbanks, Alaska 99701-4897 Telephone: (907) 452-8251 POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony in opposition to SB 262. TIMOTHY C. ANDREW, Director of Natural Resources Association of Village Council Presidents Pouch 219 Bethel, Alaska 99559 Telephone: (907) 543-3521 POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony in opposition to SB 262. HERMAN MORGAN, Chairman Central Kuskokwim Fish and Game Advisory Committee (Address not provided) Telephone: (907) 675-4393 POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony in opposition to SB 262. ACTION NARRATIVE TAPE 98-46, SIDE A Number 001 CO-CHAIRMAN SCOTT OGAN called the House Resources Standing Committee meeting to order at 5:10 p.m. Members present at the call to order were Representatives Hudson, Ogan, Masek, Green and Dyson. Representatives Joule, Barnes and Nicholia arrived at 5:13 p.m., 5:17 p.m., and 5:24 p.m., respectively. SB 341 - AGRICULTURAL LAND BILL FIX CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN announced the first order of business was Senate Bill Number 341, "An Act relating to agricultural land; and providing for an effective date." CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN called on Laura "Janey" Wineinger, staff to Senator Lyda Green, sponsor of the bill. Number 023 LAURA "JANEY" WINEINGER, Researcher for Senator Lyda Green, Alaska State Legislature, stated in the bill packet there is a sponsor statement; and letters of support from the Department of Natural Resources (DNR), the Alaska Revolving Loan Fund (ARLF), and the Matanuska-Susitna Borough (Mat-Su Borough). MS. WINEINGER explained SB 109 that passed last year inadvertently included Tract 30 at Point MacKenzie. Tract 30 has a split title whereby the borough retained the development rights and the state retained the agriculture rights. Senate Bill 341, therefore, would exclude Tract 30 out of SB 109 already in law. It is a very simple bill. It has passed the other body. Number 057 CO-CHAIRMAN BILL HUDSON asked Ms. Wineinger whether the bill has any bearing on Tract 30 other than to exclude it and leave the joint ownership to other concerns. Number 067 MS. WINEINGER replied, "Correct." There is a party interested in buying Tract 30 from the Mat-Su Borough. The agricultural rights will be retained, but the developmental rights to it can be purchased by a buyer from the borough. It is similar to Tract 31, but it was not included in the bill last year like Tract 30. CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN announced the arrival of Representative Joule. Number 103 CAROL CARROLL, Director, Division of Support Services, Department of Natural Resources, stated the department supports the bill. There was a problem with SB 109 because it didn't own all of the rights to Tract 30 and the bill would fix it. Number 114 REPRESENTATIVE FRED DYSON made a motion to move SB 341 from the committee with individual recommendations and the attached fiscal note(s). There being no objection, SB 341 was so moved from the House Resources Standing Committee. CSSB 236(RES) - CITIZENS ADVISORY COM ON FED AREAS IN AK CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN announced the next order of business was CSSB 236(RES), "An Act extending the termination date of the Citizens' Advisory Commission on Federal Areas in Alaska; and providing for an effective date." CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN called on Annette Kreitzer, staff to the Senate Labor and Commerce Standing Committee, sponsor of the bill. Number 129 ANNETTE KREITZER, Legislative Assistant to Senator Loren Leman, Chairman, Senate Labor and Commerce Standing Committee, Alaska State Legislature, stated the bill extends the expiration of the Citizens' Advisory Commission on Federal Areas in Alaska for another five years - June 30, 2003. The commission does not have a wind-down year following its expiration, therefore, it would cease to exist after June 30, 1998, if not extended by the legislature. The commission is tasked with the following duties: Evaluate federal management, operation, planning, development for consistency with federal law and congressional intent; Hold hearings on the impact of federal regulations and federal management decisions; Make recommendations to state or federal land agencies; Report annually to the governor and the legislature. Number 148 REPRESENTATIVE JOE GREEN asked Ms. Kreitzer whether the commission has ever held a hearing on Secretary Babbitt's interpretation of Title VIII of the Alaska National Interest Lands Conservation Act (ANILCA). MS. KREITZER replied she is not aware of any hearing. Stan Leaphart, Executive Director of the Citizens' Advisory Commission on Federal Areas in Alaska is online to answer any questions about the day-to-day activities of the commission. Number 163 STAN LEAPHART, Executive Director, Citizens' Advisory Commission on Federal Areas in Alaska, testified via teleconference in Fairbanks. The commission has not held a hearing on the subsistence issue since shortly after the original federal takeover in 1990. "We had a significantly different membership then. We held a statewide teleconference, made a recommendation at that time - which I don't think we would make again today - to implement--suggest a constitutional amendment. That was the last time we have held any sort of hearing on ANILCA, Title VIII. We've not been inactive on the issue, rather we continue to monitor the federal program to make sure that at least those people that qualify under the federal program are getting a fair shake under that system." Number 187 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked Mr. Leaphart whether Alaska's congressional delegation is responsive and takes recommendations from the group. MR. LEAPHART replied, "Yes." The commission has made recommendations to the delegation on a wide range of issues. They are not always responsive to every recommendation, but the commission submits on a routine basis copies of its comments and recommendations. Number 206 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked Mr. Leaphart whether a federal interpretation has ever been stopped or modified with a recommendation by the commission. "The reason I'm asking is that to extend this for a reasonably high fiscal note--I'm just wondering what we're getting for that in the arena that we find ourselves in now trying to budget cut. I'm wondering what we're getting for this kind of money. If it's just to maintain something that has been effective or ineffectively. And, I'm just wondering if you can show me something that we're getting for that." MR. LEAPHART replied a lot of the issues that the commission deals with are obscure and esoteric. The commission spends a lot of time looking at proposed federal regulations and proposed management plans. The commission has made some significant differences on a number of occasions. As a new employee in 1982, the commission was working on the issue of commercial fishing in Glacier Bay National Park and Preserve. The commission can't say that it has solved the issue, but there still is commercial fishing in the bay today. In addition, the commission has helped individuals around the state to secure permits for guiding activities in order to access cabins on federal parks and refuges. It is a little difficult to say conclusively where the commission has made a difference on a particular issue, but it has made a good bit of difference on a lot of small issues. The commission has an invaluable institutional memory. In other words, it reminds federal agencies of their promises made 10 to 15 years ago that they don't remember because of personnel turnover. The commission has been very effective in that regard. CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN wondered why Representative Green was concerned about the congressional delegation following the commission's recommendations when they don't follow all of the legislature's recommendations. REPRESENTATIVE GREEN replied that furthers his point. What do we get for this bill? he asked. CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN announced that Representative Nicholia has joined the meeting. Number 256 REPRESENTATIVE RAMONA BARNES stated, before the commission was established in state law, there was the Federal Land Use Planning Commission. It went by the wayside, and the citizens' commission was established by Senator Betty Fahrenkamp when the state was fighting ANILCA in Washington D.C. It has been an effective committee. It puts Alaska's voice before federal agencies, and the legislature has put very little money into it over the years. The commission should not only continue, but it needs to be funded adequately. Number 303 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked Representative Ogan and Hudson what has happened since they have been members of the commission. Number 309 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN replied he went to a meeting this year, but had to leave because of session duties. He knows for a fact that the commission is very active and is needed to watch federal-state issues. CO-CHAIRMAN HUDSON replied he has not attended a meeting yet. He just found out that he is a member of the commission. He has read the reports submitted, however. It appears that the commission has been advocating for the continuation of commercial and subsistence fishing in Glacier Bay National Park and Preserve against a very aggressive national park service - a concern of his. He intends to get into the middle of the issue as an advocate. REPRESENTATIVE GREEN stated he is concerned that the commission has lost its "umph" on federal issues. He has never heard from the group. He wondered whether it is just gliding or actively and aggressively doing something. Number 346 REPRESENTATIVE BARNES stated Representative Al Vezey indicated it is one of the best committees that he has ever served on. It is a very active committee, according to the public members, despite the fact that Representatives Ogan and Hudson recently just found out they are members. Number 358 REPRESENTATIVE DYSON asked Representative Barnes whether the intent of the commission when established was to have a feedback loop from the congressional delegation. REPRESENTATIVE BARNES replied there has been feedback between the commission and the congressional delegation. In addition, the commission doesn't just interact with the congressional delegation, it also interacts with federal agencies. Most often, it is the only agency that looks after the interest of the state with respect to the federal agencies. REPRESENTATIVE DYSON asked Mr. Leaphart whether the congressional delegation regularly inquires about the commission's opinion and analysis on federal legislation affecting Alaska's lands. Number 391 MR. LEAPHART replied the commission routinely submits a copy of all of its comments to the congressional delegation. They don't always solicit, but the commission always provides. Sometimes there is feedback and sometimes there isn't, but the commission always advises the congressional delegation on its recommendations and positions on particular issues. REPRESENTATIVE DYSON asked Mr. Leaphart whether the congressional delegation has always solicited the commission's views. MR. LEAPHART replied, "Yes." The commission does not have a high profile like it used to. It used to have five people on staff. Now, he is the only staff member and works a reduced year because of funding. The commission, therefore, is somewhat less effective than what it used to be simply because of personnel and budget reductions. It tries to do the best it can with what is has, however. MR. LEAPHART further stated there was a tremendous amount of feedback and input on bills proposed in 1992 and 1993 on the Glacier Bay commercial fishing issue, as well as this year. In addition, there were extensive comments and input on Representative Young's Wildlife Refuge Management Act passed last year that were incorporated. Number 422 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN asked Mr. Leaphart whether the commission works with other federal agencies when implementing regulation changes. MR. LEAPHART replied, "Yes." He checks in with the Secretary's office once a week in Anchorage to discuss any issues on the table. He just reviewed a management plan for Denali National Park and Preserve that would be a disaster, if implemented, and submitted strong feedback to that agency. He checks routinely with both individual unit managers, staff of the parks and refuges, and regional offices. Number 436 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN asked Mr. Leaphart to put him on the list for a weekly or at least a bi-weekly check to keep him abreast of what is going on with the different federal regulatory agencies that the legislature should be involved in. MR. LEAPHART replied he would be happy to make sure he gets a copy of the issue updates. CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN stated he would like to get a monthly phone call from Mr. Leaphart, assuming that the bill passes. MR. LEAPHART replied he would be happy to do that. Number 450 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN stated the fiscal note refers to travel and per diem for commission members for two meetings a year. He asked Mr. Leaphart what is done at the meetings and are they held in Fairbanks. Number 456 MR. LEAPHART replied the commission tries to meet in Juneau during the session because of its legislative members. The last meeting was on March 27, 1998. It also tries to meet in Anchorage during the fall. Summers are too difficult for the members to try to meet. REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked Mr. Leaphart whether there is a pretty good membership turnout. MR. LEAPHART replied, "Yes." There were 13 at the last meeting. REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked Mr. Leaphart whether the meetings are for one or two days. MR. LEAPHART replied the last meeting was for just one day. REPRESENTATIVE GREEN stated the fiscal note primarily addresses travel expenses. MR. LEAPHART replied the travel expenses for the meeting in Juneau were pretty substantial. REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked Mr. Leaphart what was accomplished at the meeting. MR. LEAPHART replied he could copy him on the recommendations that were adopted. The commission adopted a letter to the director of the USDA Forest Service opposing the road moratorium in the national forest system. The commission also voted to support the Bureau of Land Management's (BLM) recommendation to not designate Squirrel River as wild and scenic. The commission also adopted to prepare a letter to the congressional delegation asking them to make a legislative conveyance of the remaining federal lands in the Dalton Highway-Haul Road corridor. The commission also adopted to write to the BLM and ask for a comprehensive review of all public land orders still in existence in Alaska. Number 491 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked Mr. Leaphart whether subsistence was on the agenda and has the commission come up with any suggestions. MR. LEAPHART replied the commission has not addressed the subsistence issue directly for quite sometime. At a meeting in 1996, it was decided to avoid the subsistence issue because it has the capacity to blow up on its own, based on a recommendation by Senator Rick Halford. As an advisory group, there is not a whole lot it can do other than to monitor the ongoing federal program as long as it remains in place. Number 509 REPRESENTATIVE REGGIE JOULE suggested appointing members from the minority because they seem to have a bit more time to attend the meetings. CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN replied he wouldn't go into minority-member attendance in this committee. Number 522 TINA CUNNING, State-Federal Issues, ANILCA Coordinator, Department of Fish and Game, testified via teleconference in Anchorage. The department supports the continuation of the Citizens' Advisory Commission on Federal Areas in Alaska. Although the commission might not be able to rattle off its victories and gains, the mere fact that it is there provides a tremendous resource for the public. The department monitors the regulations and planning documents as they affect the department's management authority and the public's ability to use them. The commission is much more effective in lobbying and working on behalf of individual public members. For example, the commission reviewed the Chugach National Forest Management Plan update and caught the identified 23 wild and scenic river recommendations. The commission also monitors Title 11, access to transportation and utility regulations that went through an extensive lawsuit. It was settled out of court partially due to efforts of the commission working with the Interior on access for inholders. The department also recently provided a training on the public trust doctrine for the commission members. The commission can provide a lot of help to the public that the department can't advocate for directly, therefore, it is important to keep them informed on the public trust doctrine. Number 572 MS. KREITZER stated the commission has also been active with the American Heritage Rivers Initiative, an issue of great concern to many Alaskans. There were no hearings in Alaska on the initiative. The commission did not support it and made it very clear to the congressional delegation. Number 583 REPRESENTATIVE IRENE NICHOLIA stated there are a lot of federal areas in rural Alaska, but there aren't a lot of rural representatives on the commission. She would like to see them included in the future. Number 590 REPRESENTATIVE BARNES stated in the past there have been a number of rural representatives on the commission. The legislative delegation changes every two years. The public members change frequently as well. Number 597 REPRESENTATIVE NICHOLIA stated she would just like to see the continuation of a rural representation on the commission. Number 599 CO-CHAIRMAN HUDSON stated the Act requires a representative from each judicial district in the state. If that hasn't been followed, it should be looked into. MS. KREITZER stated the governor has a big role to play by appointing eight members of his choice from throughout the state. Number 610 REPRESENTATIVE NICHOLIA stated she intends to write to the governor about this. Number 611 REPRESENTATIVE BARNES made a motion and asked unanimous consent to move CSSB 236(RES) from the committee with individual recommendations and the attached fiscal note(s). There being no objection, CSSB 236(RES) was so moved from the House Resources Standing Committee. CSSB 262(FIN) - MANAGEMENT OF HUNTING CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN announced the next order of business was CSSB 262(FIN), "An Act relating to regulation of hunting and trapping, to the definition of 'sustained yield,' and to controlled use areas." CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN called on Mel Krogseng, staff to Senator Robin Taylor, sponsor of the bill. Number 618 MEL KROGSENG, Legislative Administrative Assistant to Senator Robin Taylor, Alaska State Legislature, read the following sponsor statement: "Senate Bill 262 restricts the department from curtailing traditional access for hunting and trapping unless the specific means of access is causing biological harm to a game population in the area where the restriction is to apply; and, the recovery of the wildlife population requires the access restriction. "Alaska license holders are outraged by the department's adoption of a preservationist philosophy which opposes consumptive uses by restricting access. At the fall 1995 Board of Game meeting, the Department of Fish and Game urged the Board of Game to close some 236 square miles to Alaska's hunters. The department's own biologists testified that there was no biological problem, no justification, nor actual conflict among user groups in the area. The department's director admitted that the only issue was one based solely on a mis-perception resulting from purposeful misinformation and disinformation promulgated by animal rights extremists. "The Board of Game is now politically compromised. It has developed a pattern of establishing 'controlled use areas' which deny user group access without any biological justification. Currently, there are 26 'controlled use areas' in the state and these will effectively be grandfathered under this legislation. To get politics out of future wildlife management decisions, the legislature must require that all wildlife regulations be necessary and biologically justified." MS. KROGSENG stated the bill would also define the term "sustained yield." Number 641 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN asked Ms. Krogseng, for clarification, whether there was a mis-justification for the department or board's action. MS. KROGSENG replied the issue she referred to was about an area near the McNeil River State Sanctuary. There was a recommendation from the department to the board to restrict access for hunting because of protests by outside animal rights activists. Number 654 REPRESENTATIVE JOULE asked Ms. Krogseng whether the current controlled use areas would be grandfathered in. MS. KROGSENG replied, "Correct." The last section of the bill says the Board of Game "may" continue any of the current controlled use areas that they consider necessary. REPRESENTATIVE JOULE asked Ms. Krogseng whether the grandfather provision would extend past the review stage. MS. KROGSENG replied the intent of the section is for the board to look at the existing controlled use areas and maintain those that need to be maintained without any justification. Future controlled use areas, however, must be biologically necessary. REPRESENTATIVE JOULE asked Ms. Krogseng, for clarification, whether the establishment of a controlled use area would be based on a biological decision. The Noatak controlled use area was not necessarily based on biology, but the interference of hunter activity. When the western arctic caribou herd migrates south planes buzz around them and drive them away from the hunting areas. He wondered whether the bill would prohibit the board from deciding on a controlled use area based on that. MS. KROGSENG replied the original bill eliminated all controlled use areas, but it was changed based on talking with people. The board has used these areas as a methods and means to curtail harvest. She reiterated the current controlled use areas will remain in place as long as the board feels they need to be there. The bill is written that way because some areas were established on a temporary basis. REPRESENTATIVE JOULE stated the Noatak controlled use area was established because of the interference.... TAPE 98-46, SIDE B Number 000 REPRESENTATIVE JOULE continued. He wondered whether the board would be curtailed from putting in a controlled use area because of hunting interference. MS. KROGSENG replied that would be correct in the future. Number 009 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN referred to page 3, line 4 and wondered whether it should read "of access" rather than "to access." The bill talks about "means of access" on page 3, line 6. MS. KROGSENG replied she doesn't know for certain. The structure of the subsection would change, if the term "to" is changed to "of." Number 049 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN stated in one case it means a method "to" do something, while in the other case it means a method "of" doing something. It is drafted correctly. Number 059 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN called for a brief at ease. CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN called the meeting back to order. Number 063 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN stated he has hunted by horse a number of times in controlled use areas. The bill says the board or department may not restrict the use of a method or means to "access, take, or transport game for the purpose of preferring or affecting the quality of the outdoor experience of a person or group." It also says the board may establish a controlled use area only if necessary to achieve biological management goals. He wondered whether an area getting a lot of pressure could be created because it is affecting the game populations, not because of the quality of a hunt. MS. KROGSENG replied, "Correct." Trophy animals would be a biological process. In addition, there are some 50 million acres of non-motorized land in the state, and Senator Taylor feels that is enough to allow for a quality hunt. The department or board should not be restricting areas unless it is biologically necessary. There are lots of folks who find it difficult to cart a moose on their back, for example. Number 141 REPRESENTATIVE JOULE stated closing seasons to grow horns for a trophy is not a biological reason, but an economical reason. Number 159 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN asked Ms. Krogseng what "method or means to access, take, or transport game" means. MS. KROGSENG replied it is aimed at preventing a closure based on hiking or photography, for example. CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN stated "method or means to access, take, or transport game" means guns and bows and arrows. He wondered whether the department or board could not restrict the use based on a type of method to take game. MS. KROGSENG replied that is what the bill says. She doesn't think that is the intent, however. Number 218 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN stated the subsection says that the department cannot restrict access, taking of game, or transporting it out for the purpose of preferring or affecting the quality of the outdoor experience. In other words, accessing, taking, or transporting game cannot be inferior to photography, for example. Number 228 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN stated he has always understood method and means of taking fish and game as the different forms of weaponry used. Number 233 REPRESENTATIVE BARNES agreed with Representative Green's interpretation. REPRESENTATIVE GREEN stated he understands what Co-Chairman Ogan is saying, but that is not the meaning in the bill. It means the process is not going to be inferior to a camera buff or sightseers, for example. MS. KROGSENG stated that is the intent. Number 256 CO-CHAIRMAN HUDSON stated subsection (3) on page 2 refers to the sustained yield principle, and Section 2 states that the board or department may restrict a traditional means of access if it finds in writing that the means of access has resulted in significant biological harm. In other words, the harm has already been done. Number 291 MS. KROGSENG agreed it is after the fact. Number 297 REPRESENTATIVE NICHOLIA stated she would like to hear from the department. She has the same concern. CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN called on Ken Taylor from the Department of Fish and Game. Number 302 KEN TAYLOR, Deputy Director, Division of Wildlife Conservation, Department of Fish and Game, stated the bill goes far beyond the intent conveyed in the sponsor statement. Section 1 would remove the board's responsibility to allocate resources by restricting its authority to adopt regulations only when necessary for the biological management of game. Among regulations that are not necessary for the biological management of game are bag limits, methods and means, accommodations for disabled persons, subsistence preferences, emergency openings to allow additional harvests, prohibiting live capture of animals, regulations made for public safety reasons, sale of game, and etc. He doesn't believe that is the intent of the sponsor, however. CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN stated in the Mat-Su Valley there is a restriction on the type of firearm used within areas near homes. He asked Mr. Taylor whether those types of concerns would be addressed under this bill. MR. TAYLOR replied, if this bill passes, those types of concerns and a number of other restrictions would not be able to be addressed. He cited the use of machine guns, helicopters for access, and shooting from a moving vehicle as examples. These restrictions are not based on biology, but necessitated by society. There are regulations that govern hunting behavior to maintain public acceptance of hunting, not to maintain the animal populations. They are to ensure the equitable use of the common resources, improve the quality of the hunt, prevent waste and misuse of game, and ensure the general safety and welfare of Alaskans. MR. TAYLOR further stated Section 2 of the bill would prevent the board from closing any area to a particular means of access after significant biological harm has occurred when recovery is unlikely without a restriction. There are a number of things that have to occur before the department could respond to do something. This is not consistent with the department's concept of sustained yield management. Sustained yield is the attempt to prevent significant harm from occurring by anticipating population declines and acting to stop them. The principle of sustained yield has guided wildlife management through the twentieth century. Therefore, it is highly inadvisable to attempt to define it at this stage. The definition of "sustained yield" in Section 3 would mandate a drastic and often impossible revision to the current management practices for several game species in the state. There is also concern about the meaning of "high level of human harvest" within the definition of sustained yield. Management for many species would require harvest of both sexes, an unpopular concept among many Alaskans for Dall sheep and moose. It would be inconsistent with the Ladue River controlled use area and around Tok that were not established for biological necessities. In addition, there are portions of the bill that conflict with several statutes. He cited the subsistence and antler-less moose provisions as examples. With all due respect to the sponsor, there is nothing that the department can find that's good for wildlife or its uses in the bill. The department strongly recommends not to move the bill from the committee. Number 398 REPRESENTATIVE BARNES stated there aren't that many changes in the bill, except for a few words. She asked Mr. Taylor how he can say that there isn't anything good about the bill. Number 406 MR. TAYLOR replied the bill puts the caveat of having to meet the criteria of biological necessity for the management of game on all of the existing laws. Many controlled use areas were not set for biological purposes. Many were set for regulating hunting behavior and ethical standards of society, for example. Number 416 REPRESENTATIVE BARNES asked Mr. Taylor where the department and board derive their powers to manage fish and game. MR. TAYLOR replied all of the powers of the department and board are provided for in Title 16. REPRESENTATIVE BARNES asked Mr. Taylor who passed the laws. MR. TAYLOR replied the legislature. REPRESENTATIVE BARNES asked Mr. Taylor when a law is passed does the department and board generally live up to its spirit and intent. MR. TAYLOR replied, "Yes." The department and board both work hard to live up to the spirit of a law. REPRESENTATIVE BARNES asked Mr. Taylor whether the department and board adopt regulations based on the clear face of the law. She said, "You have no power that is derived other than from the legislature. The only power you have is that power which we delegate. Then you sit there and tell me, sir, how you can in good conscience at anytime--first of all say a bill like this is not good and secondly when there's a law clear on its face--absolutely clear on its face--then how can you fail to live up to that law." MR. TAYLOR stated every time that the legislature has passed a law effecting fish and game matters the board and department have worked to implement it. If this bill was implemented into statute, the department would have to go through all of its game regulations to make certain that they are consistent with the intent and statement of the law. The way Section 1 is structured, many of the regulations would not pass the consistency review of being biologically necessary. REPRESENTATIVE BARNES asked Mr. Taylor why a bill like this is necessary. Is it because in game management unit 13 the department was in the process of adopting regulations that would have prohibited motorized vehicles in an area where the law quite specifically allows them? she asked. MR. TAYLOR replied no regulation proposals regarding Unit 13 came from the department. The department has maintained a consistent position on the use of Unit 13 and across the state. Unit 13 has been a high use area for outdoor recreation vehicles (ORV). The department can't simply address ORV use in hunting regulations in an area used for berry picking and mining, for example. A simplistic approach is to say that the ORV problem is caused by hunters. Therefore, the department recommended to the board that the issue be deferred until it could talk to the landowners, the BLM, and the Native corporations and put together a working group to address the issue further. REPRESENTATIVE BARNES stated there is a law on the book that clearly exempts the department from sticking its nose into Unit 13 as it relates to off-road vehicles. MR. TAYLOR stated there was an area that was established by the legislature for ORV use in a portion of Unit 13. He is not sure if it includes all of Unit 13, however. REPRESENTATIVE BARNES stated for the record that this is just one example where the department and board do not follow the clear face of the law. Number 512 WAYNE REGELIN, Director, Division of Wildlife Conservation, Department of Fish and Game, stated the department is well aware of the ORV regulations in Unit 13. The department had no intention of ever passing a regulation that would circumvent the law. In fact, in order to meet game objectives in Unit 13, ORV access is needed. The department was willing to work with those involved because of requests from the public in regards to snowmobiles in the winter. It had nothing to do with hunting. The department was willing to work on the issue and come back to the legislature if the law needed to be changed. There weren't any proposals, except by the public, or intent by the board or department to pass regulations. Number 527 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN asked Mr. Regelin why the Board of Game noticed and solicited comments on restricting access in Unit 13 if the department had nothing to do with it. MR. REGELIN replied the department urged the board not to do that. The board felt that it wouldn't get any response from the public unless it was a regulatory meeting versus an informational meeting. The board gave the perception that it was going to pass something, but realized that it had opened up a can of worms that it shouldn't have. Number 538 REPRESENTATIVE BARNES stated all the board and department had to do was look at the law, and the law says it's a motorized vehicle area. It is due to the fact that the department promulgates regulations that it gets a bill like this. Number 547 REPRESENTATIVE JOULE asked whether there would be a fiscal impact for biological management. Number 555 MR. REGELIN replied, according to the Department of Law, it would have a major fiscal impact. There would have to be a special board meeting in order to go through any regulation that is not biologically necessary. It would also have an economical impact on people coming to Alaska to hunt. Number 575 REPRESENTATIVE JOULE asked whether the current controlled use areas would be grandfathered. The bill seems to be pulling at both ends. Number 589 MR. TAYLOR replied Section 5 grandfathers the existing controlled use areas. He would leave it to the Department of Law to determine whether the biological necessity mandated in Section 1 would apply to those grandfathered or not. Obviously, those established after the effective date of the Act would have to meet the biological management goals. Number 596 REPRESENTATIVE NICHOLIA asked what impact would this bill have on Article VIII of the state constitution in recognizing preference among beneficial uses, and in allocating the role of the Board of Game to decide when and where the preferences are applied. Number 602 MR. REGELIN replied he would defer to the Department of Law to answer the question. As Representative Barnes reminds the department often, the legislature provides the authority to do things, and the board and the department don't have a conflict with that. The legislature has delegated to the board and given it tools to make allocation decisions, such as controlled use areas. The board doesn't make biological decisions. The department presents biological information to the board based on surveys, scientific data, growth rates of herds, and goals. The current controlled use areas were either supported or recommended by advisory committees for a variety of reasons. The board has to make very tough decisions without a lot of tools, and one of the most effective tools right now is controlled use areas. Number 639 REPRESENTATIVE NICHOLIA asked Mr. Regelin to expand on the earlier discussion of the bill giving a mixed message in regards to the sustained yield. Number 645 MR. REGELIN replied at the present time in fish and game biology the term "sustained yield" is not defined. It is a concept or principle and it doesn't lend itself easily to a specific definition. Therefore, the Department of Law is concerned about any definition of the term "sustained yield" in fish and game statutes. Where it is defined in forestry related issues it creates problems for lawsuits. This bill defines sustained yield as a high level of human harvest. There is another bill that defines it as a percentage of the annual catch. The two definitions would define sustained yield as a fixed rate when every herd and population is different. For that reason, the department has always urged the legislature not to define the term "sustained yield." CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN stated he does not anticipate moving the bill out of the committee today. CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN referred to page 3, line 3 - "(b) The Board of Game or the department may not restrict the use of a method or means to access, take, or transport game for the purpose of preferring or affecting the quality of the outdoor experience of a person or group." He is concerned about the term "take" and its broad interpretation. MR. REGELIN stated, according to the Department of Law, it would affect all methods and means that are in effect due to safety, fair chase standards, access, and etc. CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN asked Mr. Regelin whether the term "methods and means" would refer to primitive weaponry, such as bows and arrows and caliber of rifles. He asked whether that is how it is defined in the regulations. MR. REGELIN replied there are four or five different sections of the regulations that define the term "methods and means" - taking game, taking big game, unlawful methods of taking game, the use of machine guns. TAPE 98-47, SIDE A Number 000 CO-CHAIRMAN HUDSON stated clearly there are some concerns predicated by the bill. He asked the department representatives to help with some solutions by indicating how the author's intent can be satisfied without curtailing the use of a handicapped person, for example. Number 043 GABE SAM, Director of Wildlife and Parks, Tanana Chiefs Conference, Incorporated (TCC), testified via teleconference in Fairbanks. The bill would greatly affect the hunter pressure in controlled use areas. There are illegal aircrafts entering the Koyukuk controlled use area resulting in a proposal to extend it to the Kanuti controlled use area. It was shot down because the board said there wasn't enough information. He doesn't see how the bill will do any good for controlled use areas. In 1996, there were 800 hunters going into the Koyukuk controlled use area. The number was limited in order to slow down the taking of the breeder stock. It is starting to work, but if the controlled use area is taken away, the results will be for nothing. The TCC is opposed to the bill. Number 109 REPRESENTATIVE JOULE asked Mr. Sam when the Koyukuk controlled use area was implemented. He also asked whether the local advisory committee had any input into the implementation. Number 118 MR. SAM replied yes the Koyukuk River Advisory Committee brought the issue to the board. It was like a regular highway on the Koyukuk River competing with the local hunters. It was hard to compete with the boats and the mini-camps set up along the river. It was also affecting the environment. The controlled use area has done a lot. It controls the amount of hunters on the river at any given time, and allows for a local hunting priority. If the controlled use area is taken away, there will be chaos with law enforcement. Number 162 REPRESENTATIVE NICHOLIA stated in some controlled use areas hunters are not limited, but the access is limited. She wanted to make sure that was clear for the committee members. CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN stated he hunts with horses in controlled use areas for a quality hunt. In regards to controlling the breeder stock, the bill does not prevent the board from implementing a controlled use area for biological reasons. Number 190 TIMOTHY C. ANDREW, Director of Natural Resources, Association of Village Council Presidents (AVCP), testified via teleconference in Bethel. There is no denying that the state is undergoing extremely trying times for fish and game management. Increased pressure and conflicts among user groups both inside and outside Alaska is rampant. Air transporters are saturating areas with mass-marketing with little or no concern for resource depletion. They simply move on or accept that the abundance is over. Increased amounts of rotting meat are observed at village airports when no one is being held responsible. Legislation such as this only furthers the shambles and divisiveness being romped through the lack of an appropriate response. Senate Bill 262 raises substantial questions and serious concerns by preventing the Board of Game from carrying out one of its basic responsibilities and primary reason for being created. The results begs the question of whether the sponsor and supporters of the bill are silent partners of the animal rights fanatics. The measures to address predator control problems would be even further restricted since they are seldom "biologically necessary." The existing intensive management law would be directly contradicted since it is not "biologically necessary." Section 2 flies directly in the face of the sustained yield principle embodied in the state constitution. The reference to the word "balloon" in Section 2 indicates somebody believes balloons are used as a traditional means of access to go hunting when it is difficult and practically unimaginable. But, it would be a statutory directive. The AVCP strongly encourages the committee members to reject the bill or at a minimum hold it until it has been amended to reflect what any reasonable person would presume to be its true purpose. Number 271 HERMAN MORGAN, Chairman, Central Kuskokwim Fish and Game Advisory Committee, testified via teleconference in Aniak. The central Kuskokwim would be adversely affected by the bill. There is a huge increase of resident and nonresident sport hunters accessing the area by plane increasing the potential for competition and conflicts between resident and nonresident hunters. A lot of the resident hunters use moose to feed their families. Because there isn't an aircraft restriction in the central Kuskokwin area, moose hunting will be concentrated in non-controlled use areas leading to biological emergencies. More pallets of rotting meat will be seen and no one will be held responsible. How can there be a quality outdoor experience if there aren't any moose? he asked. Controlled use areas are established for a reason and the bill would take away an important tool for the board. Number 305 REPRESENTATIVE NICHOLIA asked Mr. Morgan whether there is a moose shortage in his area, and whether he is working with the Department of Fish and Game on that issue. MR. MORGAN replied there aren't a lot of moose around the McGrath area, but there are a lot of wolves. The predators are really increasing and once the moose reach below a certain point it's hard to bring them back up. We tried to initiate a controlled use area around Sleetmute on the Holitna River because that's where a lot of local hunters hunt moose by boat and it's not right to compete with other hunters, especially when a lot of the meat would go to waste. CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN announced the bill will be held over. CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN recessed the meeting to the call of the chair at 6:58 p.m.