HOUSE RESOURCES STANDING COMMITTEE March 12, 1998 1:11 p.m. MEMBERS PRESENT Representative Bill Hudson, Co-Chairman Representative Scott Ogan, Co-Chairman Representative Beverly Masek, Vice Chair Representative Fred Dyson Representative Joe Green Representative Irene Nicholia Representative Reggie Joule MEMBERS ABSENT Representative Ramona Barnes Representative William K. (Bill) Williams COMMITTEE CALENDAR * HOUSE BILL NO. 284 "An Act relating to infestations and diseases of timber." - HEARD AND HELD (* First public hearing) PREVIOUS ACTION BILL: HB 284 SHORT TITLE: TIMBER THREATENED BY PESTS OR DISEASE SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVES(S) HODGINS Jrn-Date Jrn-Page Action 05/10/97 1807 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S) 05/10/97 1807 (H) RESOURCES 03/12/98 (H) RES AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 124 WITNESS REGISTER REPRESENTATIVE MARK HODGINS Alaska State Legislature Capitol Building, Room 110 Juneau, Alaska 99801 Telephone: (907) 465-3779 POSITION STATEMENT: Sponsor of HB 284. MARTHA WELBOURN, Deputy Director Central Office Division of Forestry Department of Natural Resources 3601 "C" Street, Suite 1034 Anchorage, Alaska 99503-5937 Telephone: (907) 269-8473 POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony in opposition to HB 284. GEORGE PINE P.O. Box 4 Tok, Alaska 99780 Telephone: (907) 883-2182 POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony in support of HB 284. LARRY SMITH 1520 Lakeshore Drive Homer, Alaska 99603 Telephone: (907) 235-3588 POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony on HB 284. LAURA HENRY P.O. Box 80284 Fairbanks, Alaska 99708 Telephone: (907) 455-6719 POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony on HB 284. DOUGLAS YATES, Education Coordinator Alaska Boreal Forest Council P.O. Box 221 Ester, Alaska 99725 Telephone: (907) 479-8300 POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony on HB 284. DAN STEIN 1712 Gilmore Trail Fairbanks, Alaska 99712 Telephone: (907) 458-9386 POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony in opposition to HB 284. BRUCE ABEL, President Juneau Chamber of Commerce 9999 Glacier Highway Juneau, Alaska 99801 Telephone: (907) 789-2155 POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony in favor of HB 284. PAMELA LaBOLLE, President Alaska State Chamber of Commerce 217 2nd Street Juneau, Alaska 99801 Telephone: (907) 586-2323 POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony in support of HB 284. MURRAY WALSH, Representative Juneau Resource Alliance 2974 Foster Avenue Juneau, Alaska 99801 Telephone: (907) 586-1106 POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony in support of HB 284. WAYNE NICOLLS, Representative Alaska Society of American Foresters 9723 Trappers Lane Juneau, Alaska 99801 Telephone: (907) 789-5405 POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony in support of HB 284. ROGER BURNSIDE (Address not provided) Telephone: (907) 269-8460 POSITION STATEMENT: Answered questions of the committee members on HB 284. CLIFF EAMES, Representative Alaska Center for the Environment 519 West 8th Street, Number 201 Anchorage, Alaska 99501 Telephone: (907) 274-3621 POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony in opposition to HB 284. SEAN McGUIRE 351 Cloudberry Lane Fairbanks, Alaska 99709 Telephone: (Not provided) POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony on HB 284. ACTION NARRATIVE TAPE 98-33, SIDE A Number 0001 CO-CHAIRMAN BILL HUDSON called the House Resources Standing Committee meeting to order at 1:11 p.m. Members present at the call to order were Representatives Hudson, Ogan, Masek, Dyson, Nicholia and Joule. Representative Green arrived at 1:17 p.m. HB 284 - TIMBER THREATENED BY PESTS OR DISEASE CO-CHAIRMAN HUDSON announced the only order of business was House Bill Number 284, "An Act relating to infestations and diseases of timber." CO-CHAIRMAN HUDSON called on Representative Mark Hodgins, sponsor of the bill. Number 0058 REPRESENTATIVE MARK HODGINS, Alaska State Legislature, sponsor of HB 284, stated the bill is an attempt to prod state government into reacting to the beetle kill situation, not only on the Kenai Peninsula but other areas of the state. He read the following sponsor statement: "This legislation amends AS 41.17.082(d) to require the commissioner to implement necessary salvage measures when timber on state or municipal forest land is: (1) infested or diseased and thereby poses a significant threat to surrounding healthy timber, or (2) subjected to an environmental catastrophe, and as a result, is susceptible to infestation or disease, to prevent the spread of infestation or disease, the timber shall be salvaged as rapidly as practicable. If possible, salvage should occur before there is a significant loss of merchantability of the timber." REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS stated he will draw his comments on the Kenai Peninsula. The area has been infested with spruce bark beetle that attacks the white spruce tree. The infestation has spread and because of the warming temperatures in Alaska the spread is catastrophic. There are some areas on the Kenai Peninsula that are from 80 to 90 percent infected. Unless something is done with the timber, there is a tremendous fire danger thereby not allowing any reforestation. He would like to take the product - timber - that has been salvageable in the past and open it up to operators to remove it and get some value out of it. For the past few years there have been different task forces to find out what can be done with the timber. The only task force or commission that has not been done so far is to determine what direction the trees are going to fall. Some of the timber is now past its usefulness. It does not have enough moisture weight for even the chipping process, the lowest possible use. But there is quite a bit of timber available for high-grade, value-added type of situations. There are a number of timber operators on the Kenai Peninsula that would love to be able to select some of the timber, harvest it, reforest the areas, and utilize it for log homes and dimensional lumber. The longer the wait, the timber becomes more and more useless. In Ninilchik there are areas where the timber is virtually useless. He asked the committee members to consider HB 284 with the idea of mandating the commissioner to do something when these types of infestations hit. Number 0341 REPRESENTATIVE IRENE NICHOLIA asked Representative Hodgins whether the Kenai Peninsula Borough has a spruce beetle task force. Number 0359 REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS replied, "Yes." He is not sure whether it would be the task force to determine which way the trees fall when they finally die. In all seriousness, the borough does have a task force and has spent hundreds of thousands of dollars trying to study the issue. Each time the recommendation is to remove the trees and reforest the area for its health, another task force is developed. "I guess they're trying to figure out that there's nothing we should do or else wait till the trees are completely useless that they--nobody wants to cut them anymore." There is danger of losing the forest in Kenai, Copper River, and other areas infected. In Cooper Landing some areas were harvested about four to five years ago. The Forest Service has tried to put forward tracks of land, only to be stopped by the environmentalists. There is a tremendous concern from the environmentalists, but they are misguided because the intent is for reforestation, not to have the areas burn creating a hazard. Last year, there was a meeting in Homer regarding the potential for a fire. The fire department reacted by having the people remove the timber from their homes or there will be another Millers Reach fire. It is that critical in terms of the dryness of the timber and how fires spread. Firefighters are reluctant to go into a spruce bark beetle area because of the intensity of the heat. There have been resolutions brought forward from the borough and cities. It has been an ongoing thing for the last six to eight years. CO-CHAIRMAN HUDSON announced the arrival of Representative Green. Number 0596 CO-CHAIRMAN SCOTT OGAN asked Representative Hodgins whether there are provisions in the bill that will actually help small timber operators. He knows operators in his district that would like to get their hands on some quality timber. In Montana, there was a huge log home industry built around salvaged timber sales. He would prefer to help the small operators than some of the bigger ones. Number 0694 REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS replied that is exactly how he feels about it too. He would prefer to have the small operator have the first shot, but the state is past that now. Something needs to be done with the trees. The bill would mandate the commissioner to do those kinds of things. There are small operators that would love to get some timber, but that is not going to solve the problem. There are areas on the Kenai Peninsula that would be uneconomical to salvage timber from. Even the environmentalist would like to see something done when the forests turn red and the trees die. For the beetles to move there has to be a wind with a 60 degree temperature. Beetles are not strong flyers, but they can be carried for four to five miles downwind. They infect usually a nine-inch and above tree, the kind of tree a small operator would like to harvest. He has gotten some of the fishing industry to support selective harvesting, but it is cost prohibitive and the red tape is too extensive for a small operator to get involved. The Department of Natural Resources (DNR) is becoming more and more amiable to help satisfy the needs of small operators which is why the state's timber operations are usually geared to the larger companies. Number 0876 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN referred to page 2, line 15, "exempt salvage and emergency sales of less than 200 acres from the preparation of a plan of operations under AS 41.17.090;" and asked Representative Hodgins whether it covers the streambed. Number 0917 REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS replied there is a bill now that would prevent activity from getting too close to the streambed. CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN stated the bill is for Southeast Alaska, not anywhere else. REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS stated in his area there is the Forest Practices Act and the state. There would be a setback situation at the commissioner's discretion. REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS stated even though the language says 200 acres there still is no access. The larger operator is needed to put in roads for access. The smaller operator works off of the accesses, otherwise they are stuck to roadside type of sales. Number 0991 REPRESENTATIVE FRED DYSON asked Representative Hodgins whether there is a mechanism whereby revenues could come from the harvest of the timber to reimburse the state for the cost of the fiscal note. Number 1009 REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS replied, "Yes." The state has the ability to weight the monetary gain from harvesting against reforestation. The borough has received money back from CIP (capital improvement project) sales. In order to solve the entire problem on the Kenai Peninsula it would cost the state about $9 million in revenues, and it would not receive any back. He's not sure if even $9 million would even solve all of the problem, but it would solve a lot of it. The idea is to get the forests healthy. The beetles are hitting trees 9 inches and above. With the warmer weather and the tremendous amount of infestation, they are actually hitting the smaller trees which is a natural defense because a smaller tree is healthier so that when a beetle bores into the tree it is pitched out like candle wax. If the wax is red in color it is from a spruce bark beetle. The Forest Practices Act says there must be 450 live trees per acre left after seven years. If that cannot be maintained through harvesting then reseeding is necessary. It is imperative to remember the most important thing to do is reseed. According to statute, 25 percent of all revenue that comes in on forest lease sales has to go back for reseeding. The legislature has been remiss by not following through with that statute. Number 1153 REPRESENTATIVE DYSON asked Co-Chairman Hudson whether it is his intent to move the bill out of the committee today. CO-CHAIRMAN HUDSON replied he has not decided. He definitely wants to give it a good hearing. Number 1163 REPRESENTATIVE JOE GREEN stated several years ago the state tried to do something in terms of safety because of the rapid expansion of the devastation. A fire could "cook" a lot of tourists and Alaskans given that the Kenai Peninsula is a one-road system. He asked Representative Hodgins whether the plan in the bill is trying to get ahead of the problem and suppress the possibility of fire, trying to go back into areas that have already been devastated, or both. Number 1205 REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS replied both. The infestation on the Kenai Peninsula and the Hillside area in Anchorage is very, very substantial. At this point, removing the fuel source is probably the highest and best plan of attack along with reseeding. The entire Kenai Peninsula has been infested - 45 to 50 percent - and on average 60 to 70 percent of the infested areas are in various states of dryness and flammable. Number 1267 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked Representative Hodgins, if the state is to look at just salvaging lands, is there a rationale for the huge fiscal note. He also asked Representative Hodgins whether there is any avenue of federal assistance. Number 1304 REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS replied last year Senator Torgerson went to Washington, D.C., talked with Senator Murkowski, and got $500,000 to go towards preparing timber sales similar to the idea in the bill. It has gotten off track. Senator Torgerson had hoped that he would get $6 to $8 million from the federal government since most of Alaska is impacted by federal lands. The problem is, if the state waits, it will probably be the one that writes the check. He would like to be proactive to mitigate any problems. In addition, testimony from the Kenai Peninsula Borough has indicated there are concerns of beetle killed trees that could be blown over in a high wind and affect the power lines, for example. It is time to do something about it. The salvage idea is going in the right direction. Number 1415 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN wondered, if the state does not get ahead of the problem from a safety standpoint, is it too late to do anything. Number 1444 REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS stated the fire on the Kenai Peninsula in 1947 burned for two years in Moose Pass. It smoldered in the muskeg and sprang up the next year. Today, there is still evidence that there was a fire. There will be areas on the Kenai Peninsula that will not be harvested and they will burn naturally. Logically, the areas that can be harvested should be harvested along with reforestation, and try to keep fires contained from the population centers. Number 1500 MARTHA WELBOURN, Deputy Director, Central Office, Division of Forestry, Department of Natural Resources, testified via teleconference in Anchorage. The Department of Natural Resources (DNR) shares the concerns about the impact of infestations and diseases on Alaska's forests, particularly the impact of the bark beetle epidemic in Southcentral. The department continues to have active timber salvage and reforestation programs on the Kenai Peninsula, Haines and Copper River. The department has appreciated the support from the legislature in recent years through CIP funding for the salvage programs. On the Kenai Peninsula, the department has offered 23 sales and 21 have been sold. More sales are in preparation now. The department is also working cooperatively with the borough and local governments to reduce the risk of fires. But many of the highest risk areas are not on state lands; they are on private lands. The department is also working with the Spruce Bark Beetle Task Force on the Kenai Peninsula under the leadership of the borough. The task force is identifying priorities for actions to respond to the infestation. It will consider health and safety issues. It is coordinating information and participation from a broad group of interests. The department supports the process and looks forward to working with local, state and federal agencies, and private landowners to implement the recommendations. It will keep the legislature briefed on its progress. It has to act quickly because the final report to Congress is due in June. The department does not support HB 284 at this time. Firstly, legislative action should wait for the recommendations from the task force. Secondly, as written, it would increase agency work load with having little affect on the infestation on the ground. It would require additional insect and disease surveys statewide to identify infestation zones, and negotiation of agreements with numerous landowners. Additional salvage would require funding for sale layout, design and administration. The bill would not provide the department with additional tools to address the funding, market and multiple-use issues that constrain current responses to infestations and diseases. A salvage sale often exceeds the cost of revenue received, particularly when it requires reforestation. And reforestation is required from all areas that have been salvaged on state lands. Finally, the exemption from the notification requirements would eliminate the department's ability to enforce the Forest Practices Act on those sale areas, the only way to know what is happening on those lands. A fiscal note from DNR has been transmitted to the committee. Number 1676 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked Ms. Welbourn when she first noticed the spruce bark epidemic. Number 1681 MS. WELBOURN replied it would have preceded her tenure with the division. It was noted back in the 1980s. REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked MS. Welbourn what was done to try and stem it. Number 1690 MS. WELBOURN replied there were a variety of actions taken at the local level. It has expanded at a speed and over a large enough area that it is probably not possible to control it. The contributing factor has been unusually warm weather. It is not clear if it is controllable. Number 1715 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN stated he is concerned that the department would still stand in the way of an attempt to try and do some good. He asked Ms. Welbourn whether the department is going to wait until the entire state has died off, or just weather the storm. Number 1750 MS. WELBOURN replied the department has offered 23 salvage sales on the Kenai Peninsula, in the Haines and Copper River areas. As Representative Hodgins mentioned, much of the state's timber is not accessible. In fact, access used to reach timber sales now has been through private lands built by the owners which greatly has reduced the cost of the sales. Number 1775 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked Ms. Welbourn whether there is a deterioration in value with time after an attack. MS. WELBOURN replied, "Yes." REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked Ms. Welbourn whether a lot of the timber sales suffer from too much time after the attack thereby reducing its value. MS. WELBOURN replied there are two things that have affected the value - the time since the attack and the drop in the markets. Number 1799 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked Ms. Welbourn how far can a beetle go from tree to tree. Number 1815 MS. WELBOURN replied a beetle can travel a few hundred yards. Number 1820 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked Ms. Welbourn whether there has been the concept of sacrificial trees discussed in order to keep the plague from expanding and to act as a fire break. Number 1840 MS. WELBOURN replied on small sites that is possible. A beetle can travel 100 yards without the assistance of wind. As Representative Hodgins noted, a beetle can travel further with wind assistance. REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked Ms. Welbourn whether the distance depends on the strength of the wind. MS. WELBOURN replied, "Yes." They can travel five to seven miles perhaps. Number 1855 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN stated the spruce trees are completely dead on Kalgin Island in the middle of Cook Inlet. CO-CHAIRMAN HUDSON asked Ms. Welbourn how it would get started on a place like Kalgin Island when they are not moveable, except for relatively short distances. Number 1890 MS. WELBOURN replied bark beetles are endemic. Wherever there are spruce forests there are bark beetles. They typically exist in relatively low numbers then periodically expand. An outbreak typically knocks out 30 percent of the mature trees, then die back down. What is seen now is unusual, and part of the intensity is due to the weather conditions. Number 1912 REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS stated the beetles also spread through transporting wood from one area into another area. Number 1922 CO-CHAIRMAN HUDSON asked Ms. Welbourn whether the outbreak in Southeast is expanding. Number 1932 MS. WELBOURN replied there has been an active outbreak in the Haines area and there have been salvage sales. She does not know whether it is still expanding or starting to peak, however. Number 1953 REPRESENTATIVE NICHOLIA stated there is a $50 million budget cut process underway. She wondered how the fiscal note would fit into the budget scheme and where would the money come from. Number 1964 REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS replied the fiscal note would increase the budget. It is a matter of weighing what is good for the people in the state. To solve the entire problem on the Kenai Peninsula it would cost from $8 to $9 million. He suggests moving the fiscal note forward with the bill with the idea that any money spent on the idea in the bill would not be spent on fighting forest fires. In addition, it is important to remember that there could be human lives involved. It is also a step towards healthy forests. The state is outnumbered in terms of acres because of the outbreaks. Emergency declarations and moves are needed. Number 2058 CO-CHAIRMAN HUDSON stated, in reference to buffers on anadromous streams mentioned earlier, it is his understanding that the Forest Practices Act requires buffers on all anadromous streams statewide. The bill recently introduced by Speaker Phillips (HB 373) would widen it to tributaries and other waters in Southeast only. He asked Ms. Welbourn if the bill was passed would there be buffers on anadromous streams up North. Number 2080 MS. WELBOURN replied there are different standards for public and private lands now. The bill (HB 373) would require a 66 foot buffer on type A anadramous streams on private lands in Region I (the coastal areas). There is a zone along the anadramous streams where harvest can take place in the rest of the state, but it has to be done with consideration for fish habitat and water quality. On state and municipal lands there is a required 100-foot set back in Region I and Region II. Region II is state lands south of the Alaska Range. In the area of Kenai and Copper River there is a 100-foot buffer on state lands. Under the bill, the department will maintain buffers anyway. On private lands, if there is an exemption for sales less than 200 acres from a plan of operation, the department would not have a way of knowing about those operations and no vehicle for enforcing the Forest Practices Act. Number 2143 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN referred to page 2, line 15 of the bill and asked Ms. Welbourn whether there could be a timber clearing on less than 200 acres without a plan of operation and the department would not have a way to verify it. MS. WELBOURN replied, "Correct." Number 2199 GEORGE PINE testified via teleconference in Tok. He supports the bill. He supports (2) on page 2, line 13 because the eventual loss of revenue would be greater in the long run than what it might cost the state at that particular time. He also supports (3) and (4) on page 2. Forestry wants to have its finger on everything that is going on in the state, but in the process time is being wasted when it could contribute to the harvesting of the timber. If there had been a more aggressive program earlier, the state would not be facing a lot of the problems today. In the Tok area there are little patches of infested timber. He would like to make sure that while it is small it can be harvested. Number 2288 CO-CHAIRMAN HUDSON asked Mr. Pine what he produces now in Tok in terms of volume. Number 2297 MR. PINE replied he has been producing and harvesting timber killed from the 1986 fire. He has also been buying green timber from the state. Production is around 400,000 cubic board feet. Number 2319 LARRY SMITH testified via teleconference in Homer. He has been using spruce on the Kenai Peninsula for 39 years as a matter of preference. He participated in the rewrite of the Forest Practices Act. The first meeting in Homer on controlling bark beetle was 20 years ago. The experts assured everyone that there was no problem. There is a longer history than most people are aware of. He read a forest service report from 1904, "Along both shores of Kachemak Bay and on the elevated plateau between it and Cook Inlet, the forest condition is poor. While there's a fair stand of trees for the region, they are practically gone. Along the bays shore, 40 to 60 percent of the older standing trees are dead, and on the high plateau 80 to 100 percent are dead but still standing. Having evidently all died about the same time, they are being succeeded by new growth not as thrifty as their predecessors. This growth has not yet grown to lumber size. The largest being only 12 to 14 inches in diameter and without care their future is destruction by fire." There has not been a significant fire along the low lands in Kachemak Bay because it is not a fire ecology. As a resident of Homer, he has cut down, sawed and turned into furniture old standing dead wood. The Kenai burn in 1947 allowed him to build a house 30 years after the burn. In fact, there are poles still being sold from that burn. That is not to say that trees will stand up forever. TAPE 98-33, SIDE B Number 0000 MR. SMITH continued. Studies have shown that dead trees going back 20 years are still useful for chips and pulp. The highest value for the timber is when it is turned into houses and lodges. Standing dead trees have always been a very valued commodity to make log buildings, for example. Trees are deliberately killed by girdling so they dry out standing to make log buildings. It happens in Scandinavia and America. At the Kennicott Mine deliberate fires were set to dry out the standing dead wood for building and fuel. There is a history of miners up the Kuskokwim and Yukon Rivers that deliberately carried beetle infested trees as a logging technique and strapped them into un-infested areas to dry other trees for a source of fuel wood for the steamboats and building materials for the mining operations. MR. SMITH stated ten years ago a group that he is associated with in Homer asked that the provision in the Forest Practices Act extend to their part of the state. They were pleased when there was no opposition and now there is language in statute. He sympathizes with Representative Hodgins because there has never been a ticket written by the Department of Natural Resources to use any of the tools that were increased in 1990. Therefore, he suggests providing funds so that the state can step forward and hire entomologists to enforce the Forest Practices Act (FPA) as it exists. The Kenai Peninsula Borough and the Alaska Board of Fisheries in resolutions have asked that the principle responsibility for the FPA be transferred from DNR to the Department of Fish and Game, an agency that might have a better budget. Try it first before introducing additional legislation, otherwise ten times as much money will be needed than what is called for in the fiscal note. Number 0194 LAURA HENRY testified via teleconference in Fairbanks. As a relatively new citizen of Alaska, she wonders what is the purpose of the bill. She's not convinced it is economics. It can't be aesthetics because the sight of a clear cut is much more offensive than dead trees left by beetles. The only thing left is an honest attempt to control the threat of infestation or disease. Why try to control a natural process? she asked. Nature generally knows how to mange itself. Dead trees are a healthy part of a healthy forest. Are we scared of the threat of fire? she asked. Biologist have long agreed that fires are often necessary for the survival of an ecosystem. Alaska is the easiest place in the nation to let fires run their course. The bill would be a step in the exact opposite direction. The bill does not make any sense at all. Number 0310 DOUGLAS YATES, Education Coordinator, Alaska Boreal Forest Council, testified via teleconference in Fairbanks. Beetles like fire are a natural part of the forest ecosystem. Expert after expert will say that the spread of beetles can not be controlled. He recommends deferring any movement on the bill until the Kenai Peninsula task force has the opportunity to investigate all of the options available. Similarly, the council is sponsoring a beetle workshop in Fairbanks on April 9 and 10 where other experts - foresters, economist, ecologists - will bring issues to the public that bear directly on this phenomena and bill. He is sympathetic to Representative Hodgins' issue of defensible space for homes and businesses, but the bill goes further than that. Number 0393 DAN STEIN testified via teleconference in Fairbanks. He is a recent graduate in forest ecology. He is in opposition to HB 284. It is a hasty move to deal with the bark beetle infestation around the state. It is not about retarding the movement of the beetle, but more of an excuse to cut healthy and diseased timber at an increased rate. Harvesting will not stop the spread of beetles. The bill mandates that salvage operations need to be implemented even at a loss to the state. If logging will not stop the spread of the beetle, the question should be asked if the timber industry needs to be subsidized. The issue of a fire hazard is a concern to communities, but live trees, especially spruce, can be a greater fire risk because they retain their beetles and are extremely flammable. The worry is valid, but it needs to be put into perspective. The bill is premature and potentially undermines the federally funded Kenai Peninsula Bark Beetle Task Force. It is addressing the same issue with experts from various fields, House Bill 284 was not drafted with the variety of interest and expertise. In addition, in April the Alaska Boreal Forest Council is hosting a symposium for land managers, legislators, and faculty members from the university system. The main issue is the health of forests in the Interior, primarily beetle infestations. The bill would affect the whole state when management might be different in Southeast, for example. The Board of Forestry is also a forum to discuss these matters. It should be asked to review the bill. In July, the board's agenda is to review what is known about the bark beetle in the state. The bill would also call for greater clarification - Section 2(3) and (5). Currently, the acreage exempted from a plan of operation in Region I is 10 acres; Region II - 48 acres; and Region III - 160 acres. Therefore, it is not a drastic increase for the Interior, but what about Southeast and Southcentral. Subsection (5) would allow any chapter in the Forest Practices Act to be waived to allow for salvage logging. It would also allow the public comment period to be waived. Number 0578 BRUCE ABEL, President, Juneau Chamber of Commerce, testified in Juneau. The chamber represents interests with the objective of improving the business climate and to make communities more prosperous, ecologically attractive, and a better place to work and live. The chamber has been aware of the unprecedented loss of spruce forests on the Kenai Peninsula, Southcentral and the northern part of Southeast. The chamber is also aware that many leaders have recognized the disastrous loss and the potential threat of property and life by fire. Insects and disease infestations pose adverse economic and environmental impacts on the communities, lands, fish and wildlife resources. When a large part of forests are devastated the resulting build-up of fuels also threatens homes, businesses, schools and the people who live within or adjacent to the dead forests. The Juneau Chamber of Commerce strongly supports HB 284. The provisions to salvage dead trees will not only yield economic benefits, but also help retard the spread of infestation and ensure the restoration of the spruce forest ecosystems essential for fish and wildlife species dependent on the forest and restore the scenic and aesthetic values. Number 0686 PAMELA LaBOLLE, President, Alaska State Chamber of Commerce, testified in Juneau. The chamber is in favor of the bill. For the last two years the issue of the spruce bark beetle epidemic has been high on the chamber's priority list. Action should have been taken years ago. It has now reached an emergency status. The chamber is greatly concerned about the forest ecosystems, their habitats and destruction in populated areas causing property values to diminish, and the increasing risk of fires. The cost of fighting a fire is very significant not only in dollars but lives when it can be diverted. The chamber feels it is imperative that the legislature take action now. If the state continues to study the spruce bark beetle, there will be dead and rotten timber with no economic value. It presents a significant fire danger that harms the ecosystem and does not give back anything. At least in logging one of the benefits is reseeding. The cost in the front- end will save more money than if the states waits any longer. The chamber very strongly urges the committee members to support the bill. Number 0880 MURRAY WALSH, Representative, Juneau Resource Alliance, testified in Juneau. The alliance is associated with the chamber of commerce, but fancies itself as more bony and gristly. The gravity of the spruce bark beetle is not being appreciated. There is a lot of talk about the natural cycles, but prairie fires can be considered natural even if they burn towns because of the way deserts work. The bark beetle should not be compared to that. It should be compared to the bubonic plague as a natural cycle among human beings. It is far more frightening and dangerous than what prairie fires represent in California. If there is a complaint from the alliance about the bill, it does not ring its bells enough. It does not frighten enough. It is a good attempt to do something, but if the legislature is going to do anything it should do more. The spruce bark beetle could have a dramatic effect on the forest landscape of Alaska as the goat did to the landscape of the Middle East thousands of years ago. The introduction of the goat turned the grasslands and forests into deserts. Number 0971 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN stated, even if it is a delaying cause, the state should do something proactive. He would sleep better at night knowing that he did his very best to prevent something from happening rather than watching it go. Number 1016 WAYNE NICOLLS, Representative, Alaska Society of American Foresters, testified in Juneau. The society generally supports HB 284. It is primarily concerned with the fire potential and all that it could mean to the landscape, watersheds and so forth. The primary interest in the long-term is the restoration of the spruce forest ecosystem. The society does not presume to guess what the task force will come up with, but there is nothing in the bill that would bind or restrict what it may come up with. In regards to the idea of it being natural, it depends on the definition of nature. For example, the bronchitis that he has had since December is natural, but he does not want to live with it any longer. Initially, some measure of control is possible such as, removing preferred trees in advance of an epidemic. CO-CHAIRMAN HUDSON stated one of the suggestions by Representative Green is to put up a beetle/fire break. MR. NICOLLS stated it is passed that now for the vast majority of areas. Number 1195 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked Mr. Nicolls whether there is any type of spray that could be used in remote areas. Number 1211 MR. NICOLLS replied he does not know about the use of any type of pesticides on the beetle in a forest situation. There are treatments for individual trees in home sites, however. Number 1241 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN stated hypothetically a prisoner with an electronic monitor could be sent out to the front areas with a systemic fertilizer to help do something. Number 1257 MR. NICOLLS replied the timeliness of anything effective is so strict that it is very difficult to treat the problem on a large scale with an aerial spray. Number 1297 CO-CHAIRMAN HUDSON asked Mr. Burnside to address the question of using a spray to halt the disease. Number 1300 ROGER BURNSIDE testified via teleconference in Anchorage. He stated the use of a spray is only possible to prevent attacks on a tree-by-tree basis, not over the landscape. A beetle is protected for 99 percent of its life cycle under the bark where it can't be reached by chemicals. REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked Mr. Burnside about a systemic attack. MR. BURNSIDE replied a systemic attack has been tried with a limited amount of success. It is cost prohibitive in remote areas because of the transportation of people and equipment. There is no way he can see any control of the beetle population because it is out of control. There is no way to get ahead of it to attack it. It is probably a natural event in terms of when the outbreaks have occurred in the past. He does not know how throwing enough money at it will address the problem statewide. Number 1395 CO-CHAIRMAN HUDSON asked Mr. Burnside whether there has been other large disease areas like this that have cured themselves or recovered and went on to be healthy forests. MR. BURNSIDE replied he does not want to get into defining what is a healthy forest. A healthy forest is a natural system with as much growth and diversity of wildlife and plants as those dying each year. He cited the Copper River valley in the early to mid 1920s. It did respond in some respects because there was regeneration of some sites. It will depend a lot on the specific areas. He does not see it occurring in the Interior unless there is a major disturbance like a fire to clear the seedbed for regeneration. He is not sure whether it will be fire or insects that will shape the ecosystem of the Kenai Peninsula. This is a complex subject and the intent of the legislation is good. However, the state has been at it from seven to nine years now. There is not the tools to deal with the outbreaks on the scale that the state has experienced yet. Number 1527 REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS stated, in response to Representative Green's question, when a beetle attacks a tree no nutrients can travel up it. A prevention method is to keep them well watered and healthy enough to pitch out the pest when it hits. A spray is limited because it requires spraying the bottom of the tree. The state is forced with a natural occurrence, but it needs to decide what to do with the affected trees. Number 1627 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN stated is seems ironic that people can be sent to the moon, but an insect can beat us. It is ironic that the federal government says do not log to prevent mill closures in Southeast, and then stands by idling when the spruce bark beetle is ruining the forests. A systemic bug killer should be able to be done on the trees. Number 1708 MR. NICOLLS stated he knows of two instances in southern Ontario and northern Minnesota where there was an epidemic. Most of the sites were converted to a low-value hardwood aspen and birch. It is taking a whole cycle to evolve to what it was before the epidemic. In another instance of a disease it went to grass and very slowly became encroached by the conifers and started back. Number 1770 CO-CHAIRMAN HUDSON stated from his observation, as a resident of the Kenai Peninsula, the first thing that comes back are the birch. Number 1802 MR. NICOLLS stated, depending on what is there, it is a logical expectation in a lot of places. CO-CHAIRMAN HUDSON stated then eventually spruce as was the case Mr. Nicolls mentioned. MR. NICOLLS stated it could be brought back to a spruce forest with site preparation and artificial planting. Number 1835 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN stated it will be an issue for the twenty- second century legislators. Number 1905 CLIFF EAMES, Representative, Alaska Center for the Environment, testified via teleconference in Anchorage. Its membership includes about 8,000 families. The center opposes HB 284. He has been following the issue for many years. He noted that the Miller Reach fire was not affected by the spruce bark beetle. He agrees with the others who have suggested it is a bad time to take action on the bill when the task force is just starting to deliberate. A task force was established several years ago that recommended deleting quite a few state proposals of large sales in the back countries and recommended postponing a number of other large sales. In December of 1996 the Division of Forestry indicated in a report that the spruce bark beetle epidemic can not be controlled in Southcentral Alaska. Fire is a great concern for a lot of people, and it is likely that the task force will focus on the issue. Fire in the back country is very beneficial ecologically, however. The state should be focusing on communities, humans, and human improvements. There can be defensible spaces and provide assistance to create defensible spaces around homes and businesses. There can be the prevention of fires from starting. Almost all of the fires are caused by humans. There can be an adequate firefighting capabilities to hit fires rapidly. And there can be prescribed fire to reduce the risks. In terms of economics, the large fiscal note suggests how uneconomical sales are. A former state forester said salvage sales do not usually pay for themselves; they pay for only part of the reforestation cost; and usually, do not pay for all of the preparation and administration. In addition, historically, there has not been a large timber industry on the Kenai Peninsula. Fish and wildlife are important to lots of Alaskans, but there is no evidence that infestations are adversely affecting them in their balance. Again, a former state forester said, "We have not been able to find a wildlife manager who believes that the spruce bark beetle epidemic will be detrimental to wildlife in the long-term. Likewise, we have not been able to find a fisheries biologist who believes that the epidemic will have a long-term impact on fish habitat or water quality. Also, the wildlife managers and fisheries biologists we know are reluctant to say that logging, even if done well, will have fewer impacts than letting the epidemic run its course." There has been a lot of talk about reforestation when there might be some important ecological reasons for the delay in natural regeneration. He challenged the committee members to find an ecologist or fish and wildlife biologist who believes that the infestation is an ecological catastrophe. As far as scenic beauty is concerned, the changes in the landscape from spruce bark beetle kills are naturally occurring and will cause a much less visible impact than timber harvest. Finally, there is really very little scientific or public support for logging and road building in the back country. The center urges the committee members to keep the bill in the committee. Number 2350 SEAN McGUIRE testified via teleconference in Fairbanks. Look back three or four years ago to a salvage writer at the federal level. It was such a disaster that it came to be known as "logging without logs." It caused huge controversy. It allowed timber operators to just go in and take what they wanted. There was very little oversight. It got so bad that timber operators later admitted, even though they fought for the bill, they wished that it hadn't happened because it became such a liability. TAPE 98-34, SIDE A Number 0000 MR. McGUIRE continued. And that logging would probably be worse for wildlife and fish. Now, this isn't some environmentalist saying this, it is the state forester for Alaska. In addition, the forest before the whites got here was one of the great forests on the planet. The forest did not have a problem with the spruce bark beetle before white man came here. The idea that white man is going to save the forest is kind of a joke. The forest does just fine without us. Finally, the legislators in Juneau have very little credibility. They have spent that last 15 years working at odds with the environment trying to tear it down in many ways. It does not wash to say that the environment is part of the reason for the bill. Number 0195 CO-CHAIRMAN HUDSON replied he has not heard anybody that has testified before the committee indicate their political affiliation. MR. McGUIRE stated he is basically talking about the members of the House Resources committee, minus the Democrats. The Republican party does not have a very good track record for the environment. That is not disputed among anybody. Number 0270 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN stated he supports the concept of the bill. For the record, the Millers Reach fire was not a spruce bark beetle fire. In fact, stands of hardware were being burnt. The spruce bark beetle problem is because of the lack of management. Forests were fine because they were allowed to burn naturally, and by supressing fires over the years there are over mature trees. The state should log as much as possible, but the legislators have a public trust responsibility to make sure that the fish streams are not harmed in any way. He is concerned that on page 2, line 15 it could harm them on small tracts and loose important salmon spawning streams. And on page 2, line 19, he has never seen a requirement that gives the commissions the authority to waive a chapter and regulations adopted under a chapter. It is not a good idea to delegate legislative authority away to a commissioner. Enough is delegated away as it is. CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN made a motion to strike (5) on page 2, lines 19- 21. REPRESENTATIVE GREEN objected. Number 0479 REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS stated when the paragraph was put in there was quite a bit of consternation and thinking. In a true salvage situation the commissioner would be the steward of the land through the governor, and there might be times when there would be areas that would need to be waived in terms of bonding, and other requirements to get critical land into the salvage operation. If a commissioner started to waive other things that would safeguard the salmon streams, there would be such human outcry. He is trying to keep a simple bill that would allow the discretion of the administration to determine if something should be done in a certain way or not. He would like to see the subsection stay in the bill, but the bill is more important than it. Number 0603 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN stated the commissioner is not the steward of the land, the legislature is. The governor is not the steward of the land, the legislature is. The Resources committee has the ultimate authority and a fiduciary duty to manage the resources held in trust. He reiterated he is real supportive of the bill, but cannot support it and vote for it, if it would give the commissioner the ability to waive a requirement of the chapter. It is a precedent that should not be started with this legislature. Number 0664 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN stated the legislature empowers bureaucrats with far more reaching authority than this when it allows the commissioner of natural resources to establish royalties on oil and gas leases. Number 0698 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN responded yes the legislature does give the commissioner the ability to negotiate royalties. Generally, it comes back for legislative approval. Therefore, not complete authority is delegated. He asked the committee members whether they have seen a law put on the books that gives the commissioner the ability to waive a requirement of a chapter. REPRESENTATIVE GREEN replied emergency reactions to fires when there is not a competitive bid. CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN stated that is not waiving a whole chapter. REPRESENTATIVE GREEN stated it is waiving a requirement for a competitive bid. The subsection is waiving a requirement for emergency operations in the case of a spruce bark epidemic. CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN stated he does not believe that waiving an entire chapter has been put into statute. Number 0812 CO-CHAIRMAN HUDSON stated (5) provides a waiver of a requirement of the chapter and regulations if the commissioner finds that the waiver will substantially contribute to controlling or eliminating the infestation of disease. Co-Chairman Ogan is concerned that the bill would give a broad waiver of all provisions in Chapter 17 as opposed to some element of it. The intent is largely confined to the applications of those controlling the spruce bark beetle, not a carte blanche waiver. He does not read it the same way as Co- Chairman Ogan. Number 0881 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN replied he reads it the same way as Co- Chairman Hudson. If action had been taken in a more timely fashion in certain areas, the outbreaks could have been prevented or postponed in very critical areas, according to testimony. Number 0920 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN stated, if there is not agreement on this, then the bill should be held over until there is a legal opinion of the provision. The subsection says "waive a requirement of this chapter". It would give the commissioner the authority to waive a requirement of anything in Chapter 17, including forest resources and practices. He is supportive of the bill; he is not supportive of undermining the legislature's authority. Number 0991 REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS suggested adding the language, "If the commissioner finds that the waiver will substantially contribute to controlling or eliminating the infestation or disease, the commissioner may waive a requirement in this chapter and regulations adopted." Number 1012 CO-CHAIRMAN HUDSON stated he is not convinced that Representative Hodgins' suggestion will work. He suggested inserting the language, "waive a requirement of this chapter and regulations related to the control of an infestation under this chapter if the commissioner finds that the waiver will substantially contribute to controlling or eliminating the infestation or disease." The language would restrict a waiver to the subject of the bill. Number 1063 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN responded he still has concerns that the legislature is delegating its authority to allow the commissioner to waive a law as he sees fit. It could ultimately harm fish streams. Number 1087 REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS replied it could ultimately save fish streams. A fire destroys soil that erodes into streams. And, if there is a destroyed ecosystem in the soil, it will impact the salmon streams. He understands the concern of Representative Ogan about giving too much power to a single individual. He would like to find a solution that they both can live with. Number 1154 CO-CHAIRMAN HUDSON stated the committee has lost its quorum. No further action can be taken. The motion will remain on the table until the committee meets again. ADJOURNMENT Number 1186 CO-CHAIRMAN HUDSON adjourned the House Resources Standing Committee meeting at 3:05 p.m.