JOINT MEETING SENATE RESOURCES STANDING COMMITTEE HOUSE RESOURCES STANDING COMMITTEE January 31, 1997 3:39 p.m. SENATE MEMBERS PRESENT Senator Rick Halford, Chairman Senator Lyda Green, Vice Chair Senator Bert Sharp Senator John Torgerson SENATE MEMBERS ABSENT Senator Loren Leman Senator Georgianna Lincoln Senator Robin Taylor OTHER SENATE MEMBERS PRESENT Senator Jerry Ward HOUSE MEMBERS PRESENT Representative Bill Hudson, Co-Chairman Representative Scott Ogan, Co-Chairman Representative Fred Dyson Representative Joe Green Representative Reggie Joule Representative Irene Nicholia HOUSE MEMBERS ABSENT Representative Beverly Masek, Vice Chair Representative Ramona Barnes Representative William K. (Bill) Williams COMMITTEE CALENDAR BRIEFING: COMINCO ALASKA INCORPORATED BRIEFING: NATIONAL PARK SERVICE (* First public hearing) PREVIOUS ACTION No previous action to record WITNESS REGISTER JOHN KEY, General Manager Cominco Alaska Incorporated Red Dog Mine P.O. Box 1230 Kotzebue, Alaska 99752 Telephone: (907) 426-2170 POSITION STATEMENT: Provided information on Cominco Alaska Incorporated. DOUG HORSWILL, Vice President Environment and Corporate Affairs Cominco Limited 200 Burrard, Suite 500 Vancouver, British Columbia Canada V6C3L7 Telephone: (604) 682-0611 POSITION STATEMENT: Provided information on Cominco Limited, the zinc industry, and other exploration in the state of Alaska. CHARLOTTE MacCAY, Senior Administrator Environmental and Regulatory Affairs Cominco Alaska Incorporated Red Dog Mine 1133 West 15th Avenue Anchorage, Alaska 99501 Telephone: (907) 272-2117 POSITION STATEMENT: Provided information on the National Park Service Road Agreement and the permitting difficulties for the Red Dog Mine. SARAH SCANLON, Vice President Corporate Affairs NANA Regional Corporation, Incorporated 1001 East Benson Boulevard Anchorage, Alaska 99508 Telephone: (907) 265-4101 POSITION STATEMENT: Provided information on the benefits of the Red Dog Mine to the region. BOB BARBEE, Regional Director Alaska Region National Park Service 2525 Gambell Street Anchorage, Alaska, 99503 Telephone: (907) 257-2690 POSITION STATEMENT: Provided information on the National Park Service in Alaska. JIM BRADY, Superintendent Glacier Bay National Park and Preserve P.O. Box 140 Gustavus, Alaska 99826 Telephone: (907) 697-2230 POSITION STATEMENT: Provided information on the Glacier Bay National Park and Preserve. STEVE MARTIN, Superintendent Denali National Park and Preserve P.O. Box 9 Denali Park, Alaska 99755 Telephone: (907) 683-2294 POSITION STATEMENT: Provided information on the Denali National Park and Preserve. ACTION NARRATIVE TAPE 97-8, SIDE A Number 001 CHAIRMAN RICK HALFORD called the joint meeting of the Senate and House Resources Standing Committees to order at 3:39 p.m. Senate members present at the call to order were Halford, Green and Torgerson. House members present at the call to order were Representatives Ogan, Green, Nicholia and Joule. Representatives Hudson and Dyson arrived at 3:42 p.m. BRIEFING: COMINCO ALASKA INCORPORATED Number 017 JOHN KEY, General Manager, Cominco Alaska Incorporated, Red Dog Mine, introduced the following presenters: Sarah Scanlon, Vice President, Corporate Affairs, NANA Regional Corporation, Incorporated; Charlotte MacCay, Senior Administrator, Environmental and Regulatory Affairs, Cominco Alaska Incorporated, Red Dog Mine; and Doug Horswill, Vice President, Environment and Corporate Affairs, Cominco Limited. MR. KEY explained that the briefing would include background information on Cominco Limited and the zinc industry; a video on the Red Dog Mine; the building blocks of putting the Red Dog Mine together, the future of the mine; and lastly, comments on the ability of Alaska to attract further exploration in mining. MR. KEY called on Doug Horswill to provide information on Cominco Limited and the zinc industry. Number 051 DOUG HORSWILL, Vice President, Environment and Corporate Affairs, Cominco Limited, referred to a handout titled, "Cominco," and explained the company is Canadian-based, established in 1906. Currently, Cominco Limited is the world's largest zinc mining company, the world's third largest zinc refining company, and the leader in technology with sales at about $1.6 billion. Mr. Horswill said, "Red Dog is a jewel in Cominco's crown, as we think it is in Alaska." MR. HORSWILL referred to a handout titled, "Product Contribution to Revenue (1996)," which illustrated that zinc and zinc-related products amounted to 73 percent of Cominco's total revenue. MR. HORSWILL referred to a handout titled, "Western World Refined Zinc Consumption by End-Use (1996)," which illustrated that zinc was primarily used for sheet and general galvanization, alloys, brass, bronze, and oxides. MR. HORSWILL stated zinc generally follows the economy in terms of growth and demand. He referred to a handout titled, "Western World Refined Zinc Consumption," which illustrated consumption from 1980 to 1997 at 2.3 percent - the growth of the world's economy. For example, in developed countries such as the United States and Japan, consumption was about ten pounds per capita. In China, consumption was about one pound per capita. In India, consumption was about one-fourth pound per capita. Therefore, as the world's population grew richer, the potential for zinc growth would be enormous. MR. HORSWILL explained that the past five years have been a questionable period, however. He referred to a handout titled, "LME Zinc," which illustrated the price of zinc from 1992 to 1996. The price of zinc in 1992 was about 60 cents. The price plummeted to 40 cents after 1992 as a result of the outflow of metals from the Soviet Union and China, causing the stock prices on the London Metals Exchange to rise to record levels. However, by 1994 Western consumption had caught up and passed Western production and imports from the East, causing the stock prices to fall. Currently, he stated, the stock prices are moving towards "normal levels," at which point demand will impact prices again. MR. HORSWILL explained the consequence was a product of aggregate profitability. He referred to a handout titled, "Zinc Industry Profitability," which illustrated the aggregate profitability from 1989 to 1995. The aggregate profitability had been below the cost-line for muc is confident that the gap will form again in the right direction in the future. MR. HORSWILL referred to a handout titled, "Top 10 Western World Zinc Mines - 1996 Production," which illustrated the top mines for contained zinc. The Red Dog Mine was ranked number one at 325,000 tons. The number is expected to rise by 1999 to 500,000 tons, three-quarters of a billion dollars in export revenue for the state of Alaska every year. MR. HORSWILL referred to a handout titled, "Alaska Leads the World in Zinc Reserves," which illustrated the top mines for remaining reserves. The Red Dog Mine was twice as large as the next mine - Century. MR. HORSWILL concluded by stating that - currently - Alaska is the world's leader in zinc as a result of the partnership between Cominco Limited, the state of Alaska, and the NANA Regional Corporation, Incorporated. Number 184 MR. KEY referred to a handout titled, "Red Dog Beginning," which illustrated the building blocks of the Red Dog Mine. He explained the first building block was the NANA Land Agreement. It was an agreement whereby the NANA Regional Corporation, Incorporated retained the ownership of the land while Cominco Limited leased the resources from the land. He also explained that the equipment is paid for and owned by Cominco Limited. At present, the NANA Regional Corporation, Incorporated receives a royalty of 4.5 percent of the net smelter return (NSR). And, when the capital is paid for, the NANA Regional Corporation, Incorporated will receive 25 percent of the revenue, increasing in increments of 5 percent every 5 years, until it reaches the cap set at 50 percent. Also, included in the NANA Land Agreement were three committees: an operation committee, an employment committee, and a subsistence committee. MR. KEY explained the second building block was the Alaska Industrial Development and Export Authority (AIDEA) Road/Port Agreement approved by the Alaska State Legislature in the 1980s. The legislature provided $150 million for the development of a road between the mine and port site, and the shipping and storage facilities. In addition, the agreement required that Cominco Limited pay back on a use-basis. Currently, the state of Alaska receives $12 million a year. In the first 10 years of production, AIDEA received in excess of $100 million in payments back from its investment. MR. KEY called on Charlotte MacCay to address the National Park Service Road Agreement and the permitting difficulties associated with the beginning of the Red Dog Mine. Number 217 CHARLOTTE MacCAY, Senior Administrator, Environmental and Regulatory Affairs, Cominco Alaska Incorporated, Red Dog Mine, explained a 50 mile road was needed to get the concentrates from the mine to the sea. However, the area was surrounded by national park service lands. Therefore, after weighing the subsistence use areas, the wildlife habitat areas and the fisheries, the route with the least impact was through a national park which required approval from the President of the United States. At present, the road works well and it is often referred to as a model road by the United States Park Service in terms of dust control and management. MS. MacCAY further explained there have been other greater environmental permitting problems which have caused delays and cost money. The main reason was because the state of Alaska adopted most of its regulations straight from other states or from federal regulations. They were not tailored to meet the unique conditions in Alaska. She explained the Red Dog Mine was sited from the air because of its bright orange color due to the metals naturally bleaching out of the ore body. There was no aquatic life in the stream yet it was still held to the same criteria as a pristine stream. She stated, in-order-to deal with these types of issues, reclassification of the stream and site-specific criteria was needed. Discussions started over 10 years ago with the Department of Environmental Conservation (DEC) with active negotiations only occurring in the past 4 years. It has only been in the last year and a half that progress has been made. In addition, Cominco Limited has been trying to renew a discharge permit since 1989 but it has been delayed due to both state and federal issues. MS. MacCAY further stated it was very, very difficult for an operation to plan with such uncertainty. It was an interesting juxtaposition because the state with the world's greatest zinc asset was being held up by details. Number 270 MR. KEY referred to a handout titled, "Commitment to Red Dog," and explained the initial investment by Cominco Limited to the Red Dog Mine was $250 million. An additional investment of $35 million was added to upgrade the metallurgical facilities and $46 million was added towards environmental improvements. He reiterated, at present, the commitment made by Cominco Limited has been met to both the state of Alaska and the NANA Regional Corporation, Incorporated. Number 292 MR. KEY showed a short video on the Red Dog Mine. Number 388 MR. KEY clarified from the video in regards to jobs, that there were between 150 to 160 construction workers on-site last year. There will be around 250 construction workers on-site in 1997. They will not be permanent jobs, but approximately 30 permanent jobs will be needed to operate the facility. And, Cominco Limited is committed to placing NANA Regional Corporation, Incorporated shareholders with these jobs. MR. KEY called on Sarah Scanlon to address the benefits of the Red Dog Mine to the region. Number 401 SARA SCANLON, Vice President, Corporate Affairs, NANA Regional Corporation, Incorporated, explained there were many benefits in addition to the monetary payments to the region. She cited about 200 of the 400 jobs went to local folks totaling $13 million per annum in payroll. Statewide, the payroll totals $22 million per annum, and about $24 million went to vendors and suppliers throughout the state. MS. SCANLON further stated that the NANA Regional Corporation, Incorporated has enjoyed a partnership concept through local control. She explained schools were being improved and careers were being discussed like never before. There was discussion on planning to place workers from welfare. The Red Dog Mine's alcohol and drug free policy has positively impacted the region. And, in addition, the NANA Regional Corporation, Incorporated shared 70 percent of its resource revenues with the other regional Corporations in accordance with the Alaska Native Claims Settlement Act. Number 441 MR. KEY referred to a handout titled, "Returns from Red Dog," which illustrated the operating profit from 1990 to 1996. Mr. Key explained that Cominco Limited has "racked up" a total of $152 million in operating debt. A combination of the operating debt and the capital totaled up to $600 million. However, at present, performance and the price of zinc are improving thereby improving the numbers. Mr. Key reiterated the reasons why Cominco Limited was dedicated to the Red Dog Mine. MR. KEY referred to a handout titled, "Red Dog Reserves," and explained there were 52 million tons of reserves in the main body, 76 million tons in the aqqaluk body, and 10 million tons in the hilltop body. Mr. Key referred to a handout titled, "Red Dog-Aqqaluk Drill Sec sections. Number 485 REPRESENTATIVE JOE GREEN stated the third body looked deep. He wondered whether the company planned to strip-mine the body or use some other kind of method? MR. KEY replied it would depend on the delineation of the total reserve. Currently, it looks like it will be mined underground. MR. KEY called on Doug Horswill to explain about other exploration in Alaska and how it was viewed in the world stage. Number 493 MR. HORSWILL explained that Alaska in general was important to Cominco Limited, not just the Red Dog Mine. Currently, Cominco Limited is exploring a gold property called "pebble" and working in the area around Nome. Number 510 MR. HORSWILL referred to a handout titled, "U.S. Share of Global Exploration Expenditures," which illustrated the exploration expenditures from 1992 to 1996. He explained there has been a drastic reduction in the share of total exploration dollars coming into the country, while it was the opposite in Indonesia, Latin America and the Pacific Basin. There has been a reduction in exploration expenditures partly because of the perceptions in the minds of the decision makers. He declared, the geology has not changed, but there was always a question of politics in the minds of the decision makers in terms of permits. MR. HORSWILL further stated it was important to ensure that the regulatory agencies have sufficient resources to administer the regulations. It was also important to facilitate the access of lands while at the same time protect the environment. It was also important to focus on the infrastructure to help reduce the cost of working in remote areas. And, in addition, it was also important to foster positive attitudes through the help of the legislature and the industry. Number 555 MR. KEY stated, in regards to infrastructure, it was tough to go into a remote location and supply all the goods. He cited Peru, an undeveloped country, had roads and power supplies while Alaska did not. He suggested that the state evaluate the affordability of infrastructure against the expected returns. At present, the potential in Alaska is unbelievable. It is only a matter of being able to get to the resources. Number 566 MR. KEY stated, in regards to fostering positive attitudes, mine development could occur as long as it was governed by good environmental practices. Cominco Limited did not have a problem with good environmental practices. It had a problem with the fact that good environmental practices were not being defined by scientists or the legislature. They were being defined by the environmental movement. He relayed to the committee members the framework of a good environmental practice. Number 585 CHAIRMAN HALFORD called for a 5 minute recess at 4:25 p.m. TAPE 97-8, SIDE B Number 001 CHAIRMAN HALFORD called the joint meeting of the Senate and House Resources Committees back to order at 4:31 p.m. BRIEFING: NATIONAL PARK SERVICE Number 004 BOB BARBEE, Regional Director, Alaska Region, National Park Service, asked the following individuals to join him at the table: Steve Martin, Superintendent, Denali National Park and Preserve; and Jim Brady, Superintendent, Glacier Bay National Park and Preserve. MR. BARBEE stated last week the National Park Service (NPS) was in Washington D.C. reminding the congressional delegation that two-thirds of the N NPS also reminded the congressional delegation that it has been 16 years since the Alaska National Interest Lands Conservation Act (ANILCA) was passed. MR. BARBEE further stated, at present, the NPS is looking towards a vision for the twenty-first century, keeping in mind the tourist industry in Alaska, and a user-friendly park service. The following are the three general areas that the NPS is looking towards: managing the current lands, accommodating the visitors, and building stronger community alliances. He referred the committee members to a booklet titled, "Alaska." Number 130 MR. BARBEE explained there are developmental plans for the Wrangell-St. Elias National Park and Preserve including a road to McCarthy. There are also plans for trails and a visitor center near Copper Center. The Kenai Fjords National Park, the Sitka National Historic Park and the Klondike Gold Rush National Historic Park are small areas but attract a tremendous amount of visitors. The Klondike Gold Rush National Historic Park experiences a 12 percent increase in visitation every year. He also explained there is a developmental plan for a visitor center in Nome. NUMBER 153 MR. BARBEE further stated the Denali National Park and Preserve and the Glacier Bay National Park and Preserve are the lynchpins in the tourist industry. Currently, the Glacier Bay National Park and Preserve is looking to expand in Bartlett Cove. Number 178 CHAIRMAN HALFORD referred the committee members to page 2 of the booklet titled, "Alaska," and read, "the vast majority of park lands were vulnerable to air pollution, oil spills, wildlife poaching, archeological looting and 'commercial fishing.'" He said, "I think the combination of 'commercial fishing,' a renewable resource activity which is legal, which is positive, and which is a major historical benefit to the state of Alaska, in that list is a very serious error in putting together a booklet." Number 190 MR. BARBEE replied the reason for including commercial fishing was because of the issues surrounding the Glacier Bay National Park and Preserve. MR. BARBEE called on Jim Brady to address the concerns of Glacier Bay National Park and Preserve. Number 199 JIM BRADY, Superintendent, Glacier Bay National Park and Preserve, explained the park is trying to find a way to phase out commercial fishing in the bay proper. It has been working for the past six months with individuals, Native groups, conservation groups, commercial fishing groups, community members and the state. The park is now waiting for a recommendation from the United States Secretary of Interior for the next move and for a draft proposal to continue discussions. He expects a final ruling by the end of 1997. Number 230 CHAIRMAN HALFORD stated it seemed inconsistent to see a few commercial fishing vessels being treated as a hazard to the value of the park. It was the same inconsistency seen through the Denali National Park and Preserves' proposals to cut off traditional and smalltime access by Alaskans, and to sell it to out-of-state corporations. Number 242 REPRESENTATIVE BILL HUDSON stated that he has followed the Glacier Bay National Park and Preserve for the past 20 years and has never seen a good reason for a plan to eliminate commercial fishing in the area. He declared it was more of an arbitrary decision made by the National Park Service. Number 254 MR. BRADY explained that, at present, the NPS is trying to meet a park preservation mission. Number 265 REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON stated that commercial fishing is an asset to the lifestyle in the bay area. Number 272 MR. BRADY replied that, clearly, there is a lot of value to commercial fishing. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER wondered how a 30,000-ton cruise ship compares to a 32-foot gillnetter in terms of park value. MR. BRADY replied the reason for the park is the visitors. The visitors do not come to the park via commercial fishing vessels, they come via cruise ships. Number 280 MR. BARBEE stated he would consider taking the term "commercial fishing" from the list of other vulnerabilities in future publications of the booklet. Number 283 REPRESENTATIVE SCOTT OGAN asked Mr. Brady whether there were any plans to close Dundas Bay to motorized vessel traffic. MR. BRADY replied, "No." Number 288 SENATOR JERRY WARD asked Mr. Barbee whether there was a mission statement. MR. BARBEE replied, "Yes." STEVE MARTIN, Superintendent, Denali National Park and Preserve, stated the NPS has a mission statement for management. SENATOR WARD wondered whether the issue of a cruise ship versus a fishing boat would be reflected in a mission statement. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER replied, "Yes." SENATOR WARD asked for a copy of the mission statement. He was curious as to how it would be worded. MR. MARTIN stated wording to accomplish the goals and objectives were included in a mission statement. Number 299 SENATOR WARD wondered whether the mission statement was in error. Number 300 SENATOR JOHN TORGERSON asked whether the mission statement was suppose to have something to say about customary and traditional use in regards to the issue of commercial fishing versus cruise ships. MR. BRADY replied the issue has not been framed yet. Number 312 MR. BARBEE explained the fundamental difference was that commercial fishing harvests a resource while cruise ships did not. Cruise ships were an avenue for visitors to see the park. He called it a long-standing issue where a resource harvest has not been part of the development and evolution of the purpose for a national park. It was a value issue that needed to be solved with the least impact on the people effected. Number 319 SENATOR TORGERSON stated he considered it more of a federal lock up of land that was traditionally used by Alaskans, not a mission statement from Washington D.C. Number 328 SENATOR TORGERSON further stated he was concerned about the in-holdings of priv owners were guaranteed access to their lands, but they ran into difficulties when dealing with the park service to maintain their accesses. Unless, of course, they were rich. The latest requirement from the park service was an environmental impact statement for each access. He wondered whether the NPS had given access to the owners or were the owners and the NPS still at loggerheads. Number 333 MR. BARBEE replied he would like to know - personally - about any unreasonable demands put on an owner. Often times, the NPS did the environmental work. For example, the NPS just provided the documentation to allow for a water line onto private property in the Wrangell-St. Elias National Park and Preserve. Number 336 MR. MARTIN explained it depended on the request for access. For example, in the Gates of the Arctic National Park and Preserve, the NPS performed the compliance on a request for a 4-wheel trail to access an allotment. According to regulations, the NPS has to choose the route with the least environmental impact. He stated the road to Kantishna required a streamlined permitting process to get to an in-holding. The request for a privately run railroad in the Denali National Park and Preserve, however, would be at a different scale which would probably require private finances. In general, that was not the case for simple accesses to in-holdings. Number 360 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN asked Mr. Barbee to explain the language on page 4 of the booklet which read, "Failure to carry out purchases in a timely manner could result in further inverse condemnation actions by claim owners." He wondered whether owners had a constitutional right to keep their property without having Big Brother leaning on them with deep pockets to force them out of business. Number 366 MR. MARTIN replied the language referred to mining claim acquisitions. He explained that the term "inverse condemnation" was the prevention of utilizing property for the purpose for which it was bought. The Mining in the Parks Act resulted in regulations that governed how mining took place within the parks. He cited Kantishna as an example of a difficult situation for miners because a park was established surrounding mining land. Number 391 CHAIRMAN HALFORD stated it was the difference between surrendering before or after a battle. Number 392 MR. MARTIN stated it was a tough situation that needed to be reconciled. REPRESENTATIVE OGAN suggested that the NPS leave the miners alone. Number 396 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN wondered whether a fishing vessel or two would be a deterrent to a visitor. He thought it would enhance, rather than detract, the visit by showing how the locals operated. He was opposed to being told from outsiders what visitors wanted to see. Number 407 MR. BRADY replied it was a valid observation. In addition, good science would be needed to help make decisions regarding commercial fishing vessels in the Glacier Bay National Park and Preserve. CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked Mr. Brady what was the highest number of fishing boats that he had seen in the bay at one time. MR. BRADY replied, "About 35." CHAIRMAN HALFORD stated, "We're not talking about the North Line at Egegik or the South Line at Naknek." If the number was frozen at 35, that would be just enough for the tourists to enjoy. Number 435 MR. BRADY replied it was a valid point. However, the NPS, at present, is suggesting that commercial fishing take place outside of the bay proper. The bay is already very special, requiring a limited entry. There is a lot of competition for its use. In-order-to limit t experiences, the NPS needs to phase out commercial fishing in the bay. The NPS is trying to find a fair way to do it. Number 438 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN stated if he was on a cruise ship he would prefer to see a fishing boat rather than another cruise ship. MR. BRADY stated the NPS tries to space the cruise ships, but it was a good point. Number 441 MR. BARBEE stated that there were going to be areas of disagreement in regards to developing national parks and preservers, but there were multiple opportunities. CHAIRMAN HALFORD stated it was a matter of disagreeing without being disagreeable. Number 451 REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON wondered how it would be possible to return the resolution process to the lowest level: the level where the policies would impact those that lived in the area. Number 470 MR. BARBEE replied the NPS would like every issue to stay at the lowest possible level. Keep in mind, however, that the NPS has constituents at every level - local, state and federal - and on every side of the issues. Number 480 MR. MARTIN stated there were examples such as the Golden Zone Mine on the boundary of the Denali National Park and Preserve where there was a chance that the south-side entrance to the park could also be used as an entrance to the mine. CHAIRMAN HALFORD announced in all fairness, it was the NPS that requested to come before the committee. Number 497 SENATOR WARD stated that the stakeholders were the constituencies. SENATOR WARD asked for clarification regarding subsistence use in the national parks. Number 508 MR. BARBEE replied the preserves in Alaska that were added to the national park system allowed for traditional and customary use. CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked which of the parks were open to subsistence use. MR. BARBEE replied all of the preserves with exception to some of the Arctic parks were open to subsistence use. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER stated that the preserves even allowed sports hunting. The Alaska National Interest Lands Conservation Act allowed for subsistence in areas that were used customarily and traditionally. MR. BARBEE stated the majority of the park lands were open to subsistence use. Number 520 CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked whether it was the intent of Mr. Brady to eliminate subsistence fishing in the Glacier Bay National Park and Preserve. Number 524 MR. BRADY replied he was not sure what the meaning of subsistence fishing was. The Glacier Bay National Park and Preserve is excluded from subsistence concerns according to federal law. SENATOR WARD wondered why the park was excluded even though there has been subsistence activity and commercial harvest for hundreds of years. Number 526 MR. BRADY explained the Glacier Bay National Park and Preserve was a pre-ANILCA park. CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked Mr. Brady whether it was the intent to phase out subsistence fishing along with commercial fishing. MR. BRADY replied he could not feature any subsistence fishing activity other than personal use. Number 531 REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON stated there were individuals from Hoonah who were subsistence fishermen. MR. BRADY stated, in regards to the Natives, there was a proposal to provide a provision to allow them to continue to subsistence fish. CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked Mr. Brady whether subsistence use was being defined by residence or race. MR. BRADY replied it was still being worked on. Number 541 SENATOR TORGERSON asked Mr. Barbee if the extreme skiing issue has been resolved in Valdez. Number 548 MR. BARBEE replied it was an issue for the United States Forest Service, not the National Park Service. Number 546 SENATOR TORGERSON stated last year United States Senator Frank Murkowski introduced a bill to try to change the way the state of Alaska was treated in terms of access to lands. He asked was there any discussion on future legislation in regards to access promised in ANILCA while he was in Washington D.C. Number 554 MR. BARBEE replied there would probably be amendments made by the congressional delegation to ANILCA. MR. BARBEE reiterated that the NPS was concerned about access and accommodation of visitors to the parks. Right now, there is not any legislation in regards to access, but there probably will be in the future. Number 562 SENATOR TORGERSON stated he knew that there was legislation last year. He was more curious whether or not Mr. Barbee had heard about any legislation this year. SENATOR TORGERSON suggested that the Alaska division of the NPS testify before Congress in Washington D.C. He was concerned about people testifying on behalf of Alaska that had never been to the state before. MR. BARBEE announced for clarification that the following parks are open to subsistence use: the Kobuk Valley Park, the new additions to the Denali National Park and Preserve, the Gates of the Arctic National Park and Preserve and all national preserves. He also announced that the following parks are closed to subsistence use: the Kenai Fjords National Park, the old Denali National Park and Preserve, the old Glacier Bay National Park and Preserve, .... TAPE 97-9, SIDE A Number 003 SENATOR WARD asked Mr. Barbee whether he had a long-term transportation plan throughout the NPS taking into consideration Revised Statute 2477. MR. BARBEE replied every park had a general management plan that addressed the question of access and transportation. For example, there were fifty commercial operators in the Gates of the Arctic National Park and Preserve to access the land. SENATOR WARD explained he was asking about road right-of-ways in regards to Revised Statute 2477. MR. BARBEE replied it was an issue of concern for the NPS, but it did not have a grand transportation plan. SENATOR WARD asked whether any promulgated regulations were stopping the NPS from having a transportation plan. NUMBER 035 MR. BARBEE replied, "No." He did not know of any regulations that prohibited the NPS from offering the opportunities to build new roads. MR. MARTIN explained it was tied more to park purposes and opportunities. SENATOR WARD announced that was why he asked earlier for the mission statement. MR. MARTIN stated that the NPS was moving towards developing a plan for the big picture to help mesh some of the priorities. Number 061 SENATOR WARD wondered whether there was the possibility of dovetailing plans of the NPS with mineral deposits, not just tourist activities. He wondered if a mission statement would allow for something like that. MR. BARBEE replied, if mineral extraction was the primary reason for a road, it probably would not allow it. There were exceptions, however, and cited the road to the Red Dog Mine as an example. SENATOR WARD stated that almost all of the roads in Alaska were built because of mineral extraction. Therefore, it seemed logical to consider it. MR. MARTIN cited the Golden Zone Mine road was a state right-of-way through a park which allowed for recreational opportunities as a spin off. The mineral development was outside of the park, however. Number 096 CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked Mr. Martin whether the state right-of-way road was the original access to the Golden Zone Mine. MR. MARTIN replied, "Yes." Number 108 CHAIRMAN HALFORD stated he could see the difference in the environmental constituency and the developmental constituency in regards to the right-of-way road to the Golden Zone Mine. But, he could not see a problem with the environmental constituency in regards to a few gillneters in the Glacier Bay National Park and Preserve. He could see a problem with increasing ship traffic, however, with the current air quality regulations. Number 116 MR. BARBEE replied the NPS not only has to deal with constituencies but industry regulations as well. Number 135 CHAIRMAN HALFORD thanked everyone for providing information today. REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON stated maybe it would be possible to collectively carry these issues to the congressional delegation in Washington D.C. for some resolution. MR. MARTIN stated the NPS knows there are going to be some contentious issues ahead. Number 153 REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON stated the NPS should be equally concerned about the issue of Indian country. ADJOURNMENT CHAIRMAN HALFORD adjourned the joint meeting of the Senate and House Resources Standing Committees at 5:27 p.m.