HOUSE RESOURCES STANDING COMMITTEE April 19, 1996 8:04 a.m. MEMBERS PRESENT Representative Joe Green, Co-Chairman Representative William K. "Bill" Williams, Co-Chairman Representative Scott Ogan, Vice Chairman Representative Alan Austerman Representative John Davies Representative Pete Kott Representative Don Long Representative Irene Nicholia MEMBERS ABSENT Representative Ramona Barnes COMMITTEE CALENDAR HOUSE BILL NO. 342 "An Act relating to water quality." - PASSED CSHB 342 (RES) OUT OF COMMITTEE Confirmation hearing Anne Kathryn Ruggles, Board of Game - CONFIRMATION ADVANCED Confirmation hearing Victor Van Ballenberghe, Board of Game - CONFIRMATION ADVANCED Confirmation hearing Greg Roczicka, Board of Game - CONFIRMATION ADVANCED PREVIOUS ACTION BILL: HB 342 SHORT TITLE: WATER QUALITY STANDARDS SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) ROKEBERG JRN-DATE JRN-PG ACTION 05/09/95 2042 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S) 10/17/95 (H) O&G AT 1:00 PM ANCHORAGE LIO 10/17/95 (H) MINUTE(O&G) 02/13/96 (H) O&G AT 10:00 AM CAPITOL 124 02/13/96 (H) MINUTE(O&G) 02/20/96 (H) O&G AT 10:00 AM CAPITOL 124 02/20/96 (H) MINUTE(O&G) 03/21/96 (H) O&G AT 10:00 AM CAPITOL 124 03/21/96 (H) MINUTE(O&G) 03/22/96 3267 (H) O&G, RES 03/22/96 3267 (H) O&G RPT CS(O&G) 1DP 3NR 03/22/96 3268 (H) DP: ROKEBERG 03/22/96 3268 (H) NR: G.DAVIS, B.DAVIS, WILLIAMS 03/22/96 3268 (H) 2 FISCAL NOTES (DEC, F&G) 03/27/96 (H) RES AT 8:00 AM CAPITOL 124 03/27/96 (H) MINUTE(RES) 03/29/96 (H) RES AT 8:00 AM CAPITOL 124 03/29/96 (H) MINUTE(RES) 04/01/96 (H) RES AT 8:00 AM CAPITOL 124 04/01/96 (H) MINUTE(RES) WITNESS REGISTER JANICE ADAIR, Director Division of Environmental Health Department of Environmental Conservation 555 Cordova Street Anchorage, AK 99501 Telephone: (907) 269-7644 POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on CSHB 342. MARILYN CROCKETT, Assistant Director Alaska Oil and Gas Association 121 West Fireweed Lane, Number 207 Anchorage, AK 99503 Telephone: (907) 272-1481 POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on CSHB 342. REPRESENTATIVE NORMAN ROKEBERG Alaska State Legislature Capitol Building, Room 100 Juneau, AK 99801 Telephone: (907) 465-4968 POSITION STATEMENT: Offered amendments to CSHB 342. ANNE KATHRYN RUGGLES P. O. Box 82950 Fairbanks, AK 99708 Telephone: (907) 474-3755 POSITION STATEMENT: Governor Appointment, Alaska Board of Game VICTOR VAN BALLENBERGHE Pacific Northwest Research Station U.S.D.A. Forest Service 3301 C Street, Suite 200 Anchorage, AK 99503-3954 POSITION STATEMENT: Governor Appointment, Alaska Board of Game GREG ROCZICKA P. O. Box 513 Bethel, AK 99559 Telephone: (907) 543-2903 POSITION STATEMENT: Governor Appointment, Alaska Board of Game WILLIAM GOSSWEILER, Chief Wildlife and National Resources United States Army P. O. Box 5-584 Ft. Richardson, AK 99505 Telephone: (907) 384-3017 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported Confirmation of Victor Van Ballenberghe DON SHERWOOD Alaska Boating Association; and Power Boat Representative, Big Susitna Rec Rivers Management Plan 1640 Brink Drive Anchorage, AK 99504 Telephone: (907) 333-6268 POSITION STATEMENT: Opposed Confirmation of Anne Ruggles/Vic Van Ballenberghe NOEL WOODS P. O. Box 287 Palmer, AK 99645 Telephone: (907) 745-3067 POSITION STATEMENT: Opposed Confirmation of Anne Ruggles/Vic Van Ballenberghe TONY RUSS Foundation for North American Wild Sheep 574 Sarahs Way Wasilla, AK 99654 Telephone: (907) 376-6474 POSITION STATEMENT: Opposed Confirmation of Anne Ruggles/Vic Van Ballenberghe TOM SCARBOROUGH 931 Vide Way Fairbanks, AK 99712 Telephone: (907) 452-5196 POSITION STATEMENT: Opposed Confirmation of Anne Ruggles/Vic Van Ballenberghe GENE TEDERS, Representative Interior Air Boaters Association P. O. Box 60385 Fairbanks, AK 99706 Telephone: (907) 479-0811 POSITION STATEMENT: Opposed Confirmation of Anne Ruggles/Vic Van Ballenberghe MATT SINGER Alaska Wildlife Alliance 26126 Wildflower Circle, Apartment A Eagle River, AK 99577 Telephone: (907) 694-6466 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported Confirmation of Anne Ruggles/Vic Van Ballenberghe STEPHEN WELLS P. O. Box 202219 Anchorage, AK 99520 Telephone: (907) 277-0897 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported Confirmation of Anne Ruggles/Vic Van Ballenberghe LEO KEELER, Representative Friends of McNeil River P. O. Box 190647 Anchorage, AK 99519 Telephone: (907) 248-9916 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported Confirmation of Anne Ruggles/Vic Van Ballenberghe NICOLE DI PADUA 4520 Edinburgh Anchorage, AK 99515 Telephone: (907) 243-4170 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported Confirmation of Anne Ruggles/Vic Van Ballenberghe ERIC WILLIAMSON, Registered Guide/Outfitter; and Member, Anchorage Fish & Game Advisory Committee 12720 Lupine Road Anchorage, AK 99516 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported Confirmation of Anne Ruggles/Vic Van Ballenberghe CATHERINE DENNERLEIN National Audubon Society 308 G Street, Apartment 217 Anchorage, AK 99501 Telephone: (907) 276-7034 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported Confirmation of Victor Van Ballenberghe SARA HANNAN, Executive Director Alaska Environmental Lobby 419 6th Street Juneau, AK 99801 Telephone: (907) 463-3366 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported Confirmation of Anne Ruggles, Vic Van Ballenberghe and Greg Roczicka DICK BISHOP, Executive Director Alaska Outdoor Council P. O. Box 23902 Fairbanks, AK 99707 Telephone: (907) 455-4262 POSITION STATEMENT: Opposed Confirmation of Anne Ruggles/Vic Van Ballenberghe JOEL BENNETT 15255 Point Louisa Road Juneau, AK 99801 Telephone: (907) 789-1718 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported Confirmation of Anne Ruggles/Vic Van Ballenberghe SKIP WALLEN 2490 Douglas Highway Juneau, AK 99801 Telephone: (907) 586-6517 POSITION STATEMENT: Submitted written statement in support of confirmation of Anne Ruggles/Vic Van Ballenberghe ACTION NARRATIVE TAPE 96-59, SIDE A Number 000 CO-CHAIRMAN JOE GREEN called the House Resources Committee meeting to order at 8:05 a.m. Members present at the call to order were Representatives Williams, Ogan, Austerman and Kott. Representatives Davies, Long and Nicholia arrived late and Representative Barnes was absent. HB 342 - WATER QUALITY STANDARDS CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN brought forward HB 342 to correct a problem that occurred at the meeting of April 17, 1996. CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN read, "At the last meeting, we considered and reported out of committee, HB 342, an Act relating to water quality. Under debate on that bill, we considered Amendment 6 which added the words, `when site specific information is reasonably known or available' to page 2, line 14. We voted on it, the vote was announced, and I stated that Amendment 6 had passed. Unfortunately, upon further review, I have learned that the vote was not sufficient to carry that amendment." CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN's approach was to rescind action reporting the bill out of committee and to adopt a new committee substitute, Version (K) dated 4/18/96, which incorporated all of the other amendments the committee adopted. He said Amendment 1 which adds the words, "when site specific information is reasonably known or available" will be added at the end of paragraph beginning on page 2, line 16. Number 200 REPRESENTATIVE JOHN DAVIES moved the committee rescind its action of April 17, 1996. REPRESENTATIVE SCOTT OGAN objected for purposes of discussion. REPRESENTATIVE OGAN removed his objection. Hearing no further objection, it was so ordered. Number 270 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN asked for a motion to adopt the new committee substitute for HB 342, Version K. Number 279 REPRESENTATIVE DAVIES so moved. Number 309 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN brought forward Amendment 1: Page 2, line 16, at the end of paragraph (4) add: "when site specific information is reasonably known or available" Number 338 REPRESENTATIVE DAVIES moved Amendment 1. CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN objected for the purpose of discussion. Number 370 REPRESENTATIVE DAVIES reminded the chairman that if the amendment was adopted, it should be adopted at the end of line 18, page 2. He further stated the amendment was critical to the fiscal note issue and recalled the department had testified that if the amendment was adopted, it would significantly reduce their workload and allow a zero fiscal note. Number 451 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN wondered, in the absence of Representative Rokeberg, if the sponsor was aware of the action. He recalled the sponsor had testified that this amendment would gut the bill. Number 500 JANICE ADAIR, Director, Division of Environmental Health, Department of Environmental Conservation, participated via teleconference from Anchorage. Advising of conversation with Representative Rokeberg, she asked to clarify the confusion about the effect of the amendment. She said, "The purpose of it is to ensure that the Department of Environmental Conservation does not have to go out and create information about the natural condition of the waterbody. What it is intended to do, is say, `when it is reasonably available or known,' we will use it. Otherwise, we do not have to consider it. It is intended to be a cost saving amendment ... something that we read into it in the first place, was pointed out by the Department of Fish and Game that they did not read it that way. Because of its different interpretations, we thought it prudent to make it clear." Number 561 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN addressed Representative Rokeberg's concern about a permit request being held up while securing the information. Number 612 MS. ADAIR said the department feels the amendment takes care of that concern. They, too, would not want to hold up the permit while trying to gather up information. That can be costly and time consuming. The amendment states, "only when it is reasonably known or available" will it require the discharge water to meet that natural condition. Number 678 MARILYN CROCKETT, Assistant Director, Alaska Oil & Gas Association, agreed and said, "The heart of the matter in paragraph (4) is the term `natural condition.' If one had information that indicated that the natural condition of the water was extremely filthy, then you would be able to get an exception from the water quality regulations for the standard for that extended sediment condition. If you didn't have that information, if the applicant didn't have it, or the DEC didn't have it, then you would be held then to what the water quality standards say. This is pretty straight forward, I believe." Number 759 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN and the CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN discussed with Ms. Adair various conditions and situations concerning waterbody permits. Number 820 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN noted the arrival of the bill sponsor, Representative Rokeberg, and proceeded to inform him of committee action in progress. Number 930 REPRESENTATIVE NORMAN ROKEBERG, Sponsor, informed the chairman he was fully aware of the situation and said, "Given the fact that, if these will yield the zero fiscal notes, I am amenable to it." Number 964 MS. ADAIR confirmed that the amendment would zero out both the Department of Environmental Conservation and the Department of Fish and Game fiscal notes. Number 992 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN asked for a motion to adopt Amendment 1. REPRESENTATIVE DAVIES stated that it was already on the table. CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN asked if there was objection to Amendment 1. REPRESENTATIVE OGAN stated there was an objection to the amendment. CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN removed his objection. Hearing no further objection, Amendment 1 was adopted. Number 1010 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN referred to the additional amendments submitted by the Department of Environmental Conservation. He understood the amendments had been reviewed and found satisfactory by the Alaska Oil & Gas Association. Number 1067 REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG said he also had amendments which he proposed to introduce and expressed his preference that the committee act on his amendments. Number 1132 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN reiterated that the additional amendments prepared by the Department of Environmental Conservation and were agreeable to the Alaska Oil & Gas Association. MS. CROCKETT confirmed that. Number 1180 REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG referred to his proposed amendment "by DEC & AOGA" and said this amendment is the same as Amendment 3 submitted by the DEC, except that it has conforming language. He noted that his amendment goes on to delete the provisions on page 3 about the public hearing process and 30-day notification situation. Number 1232 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN clarified that he had referred to the DEC amendments but they had not been offered as amendments. He said the first part of the amendment was essentially what had been agreed to between AOGA and the DEC. The last part of the amendment was Representative Rokeberg was now proposing and it had not been reviewed. He noted this would be Amendment 2, and asked Representative Rokeberg to explain remainder of the amendment. Number 1288 REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG explained that on page 3, lines 1 and 2, all material was deleted. He said the department testified at the last hearing that the public hearing and the 30-day notice were not in conformance with the Administrative Procedures Act, so it was just being struck. CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN recounted that the proper intent of the amendment is as follows: Page 3, lines 1 and 2: Delete all material and renumber accordingly Page 3, line 3: Delete the reference to insert "(1)" Number 1437 MS. ADAIR thought this was the same amendment that she had discussed with Marilyn Crockett and the amendment on page 1, line 7 would simply be a conforming amendment that had been overlooked. MS. CROCKETT assented. REPRESENTATIVE DAVIES asked the chairman to make sure that Ms. Adair and Ms. Crockett understood the deletion at the top of page 3. MS. CROCKETT understood that on page 3, lines 1 and 2, which are coincidentally, subsections (1) and (2), are eliminated. Line 3 becomes the new subsection (1) beginning with, "make available to the public" and the rest of the section is renumbered. Number 1481 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN clarified that at the top of the page of Amendment 2, on page 2, line 2, after the word "regulations." Delete: "Promptly, but no later than 12 months, after the effective date of" Number 1494 MS. CROCKETT had understood that was a separate amendment. REPRESENTATIVE DAVIES commented that it was all part of the same amendment and it could be split if she so desired. CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN synthesized the amendment for the committee. Number 1555 MS. ADAIR referred to work draft, page 3, lines 23 and 24, and said that same conforming amendment needed to apply here. REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG advised that he had another amendment for that. Number 1575 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN asked if there was objection to the modified Amendment 2. REPRESENTATIVE ALAN AUSTERMAN advised that the amendment had not been offered. Number 1588 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN moved Amendment 2, as revised. He then referred to the top section of Amendment 2, page 2, line 2, and said he recalled earlier testimony from DEC that they had problems with the language, "Promptly, but no later than 12 months" because federal mandates sometimes take longer than 12 months. Number 1670 MS. ADAIR substantiated that Amendment 2 works better for the department. Number 1691 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN asked if there was further discussion on Amendment 2, as modified. Hearing no objection, Amendment 2 was adopted. Number 1717 REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG offered Amendment 3 stating that it is a conforming amendment, with the addition of one word: Page 2, line 9, after "criteria" Insert: "or regulations" Page 2, line 7, after (b): Delete: "(4)" Insert: "(3)" Page 3, line 23, after (b): Delete: "(4)" Insert: "(3)" Page 3, line 24, after (b): Delete: "(4)" Insert: "(3)" REPRESENTATIVE DAVIES asked to hear from the department. Number 1747 MS. ADAIR felt the amendment would not pose any problem. Number 1770 REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG referred to the language on page 2, lines 1 and 2, "federal water quality criteria or regulations." and said it makes it consistent and allows the department to look at their own regulations. Number 1784 REPRESENTATIVE DAVIES commented that the first conforming amendment on page 2, line 7, in Amendment 2, was already done, so it could be struck from Amendment 3. Number 1806 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN moved to adopt Amendment 3. Number 1814 REPRESENTATIVE AUSTERMAN questioned whether the only thing in Amendment 3, was on page 2, line 9. REPRESENTATIVE DAVIES pointed out the conforming amendments listed on page 3. Number 1865 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN asked if there was objection to Amendment 3, as revised. Hearing no objection, Amendment 3 was adopted. Number 1890 REPRESENTATIVE DAVIES asked to return to the old, original Amendment 2 which had been submitted by the department as follows: Page 2, line 6, conforming amendment Delete: "after the public hearing required" Insert: "following the process" Number 1970 REPRESENTATIVE DAVIES moved the Amendment 4. Number 2007 REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG had no objection. Number 2012 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN asked if there was objection to Amendment 4. Hearing no objection, Amendment 4 was adopted. Number 2037 REPRESENTATIVE DAVIES moved to zero out all fiscal notes. Hearing no objection, it was so ordered. Number 2053 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN made a motion that CSHB 342(RES), as amended, move from the House Resources Committee with individual recommendations and zero fiscal notes. Hearing no objection, CSHB 342(RES) passed from the House Resources Committee. Confirmation, Anne Kathryn Ruggles, Board of Game Number 2097 ANNE KATHRYN RUGGLES, Governor Appointment, Board of Game, apprised the committee that she now has three years experience on the board and has gained a tremendous amount of knowledge by working with the Department of Fish and Game, the public and the other board members. She said, "I also represent a point of view that has perhaps not always been represented on the board, a point of view expressed by many hunters as well as many nonhunters. My primary interest is that I am interested in the wildlife in this state and I am interested in serving the state in this capacity." Number 2159 REPRESENTATIVE PETE KOTT asked Ms. Ruggles to comment on her experience and expertise in the area of hunting. MS. RUGGLES commented that she and her family are lifelong hunters and have hunted big game animals, moose and caribou. Number 2251 REPRESENTATIVE DAVIES asked Ms. Ruggles to summarize her views of when it is appropriate to use intensive game management. MS. RUGGLES stated the need for scientific information indicating that this is an area that is appropriate from the standpoint of ungulate populations, and their potential to increase. The impact of various predator populations on that ungulate population and the capacity of habitat to support whatever the population objectives are and public support for carrying out those activities in that area. MS. RUGGLES related that this method is not always appropriate in the state at all times, for areas that physically cannot support high levels of ungulate populations for a variety of reasons but there are other places that can. Number 2315 REPRESENTATIVE DAVIES asked Ms. Ruggles if she supported the use of intensive game management during her participation on the board. Number 2323 MS. RUGGLES confirmed that she had in a number of places, most recently in 19D. She advised that the Board of Game had recently put another regulation in place relating to intensive game management in 20A. The board has now been able to approve the cow moose hunt because of sufficient moose there. Number 2350 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN asked Ms. Ruggles if she cared to respond to the comments made in the House State Affairs Committee about her confirmation. MS. RUGGLES felt there are people who will oppose all of the applicants to the Board of Game, and probably oppose anybody who was ever appointed to the Board of Game. There will be plenty of people who support all the members. She thought it should be the goal of the Administration and the legislature to put together a Board of Game reflective of all the people, all the values that exist in the state of Alaska and not try to craft a very narrow viewed Board of Game. She said we are representing a wide variety of values on the Board of Game and the people have no reason to work outside of the board process to try to influence wildlife policy. MS. RUGGLES felt there was a very broad representation of values on the Board of Game. She didn't see a reason for people to work outside of the board process. CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN asked if Ms. Ruggles' attitude would be swayed if it became a matter of public interest that the comments made would represent the majority of the people or would she maintain the attitudes that caused the comments to have been made. Number 2470 MS. RUGGLES responded to the chairman's question relating to the opposition expressed at the House State Affairs Committee saying the difficult part of it was that it was very subjective... ....(CHANGE TAPE) TAPE 96-59, SIDE B Number 001 MS. RUGGLES continued .... how do you determine what is the attitude of the majority of the people of the state? Number 023 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN asked Ms. Ruggles for her opinion of the federal management of fish and wildlife in the state of Alaska. Number 032 MS. RUGGLES said she didn't think it works for a variety of reasons and added the most promising thing she had seen on the horizon to try to resolve the issue, had been the Lieutenant Governor's attempts to try to come up with solutions. MS. RUGGLES could not imagine anyone who thinks having dual management, double sets of regulations, overlapping sets of advisory boards and regulatory boards is either going to help the people in the state of Alaska or wildlife populations in the state of Alaska. Number 064 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN asked Ms. Ruggles if she was aware that there were federal regulations being considered that would possibly eliminate the state management of fish and wildlife. Number 083 MS. RUGGLES replied that she had read the same report. She stated there are lawsuits that have forced this and we will continue to see it until the state and the federal government can craft a solution. Number 101 CO-CHAIRMAN BILL WILLIAMS verified that Ms. Ruggles was on the board at the time the legislature passed intensive game management legislation and asked her opinion of the legislation. MS. RUGGLES answered that the intensive game management legislation had given the board direction in how it should manage in some areas. She felt the regulatory agencies needed a little more time to implement the law. Number 143 CO-CHAIRMAN WILLIAMS referred to a statement in Ms. Ruggles' resume, "My goal is to devise ways in which humans can exist in the natural world with minimal impact on the natural systems." He asked her to elaborate. Number 162 MS. RUGGLES stated, "My interest is that we still need to have a Board of Game one hundred years from now, that we have not so impacted the systems that we have lost wildlife populations due to habitat conversions." Number 202 REPRESENTATIVE DAVIES interrupted to state that it is 9:02 a.m. He requested that the committee stand at-ease to observe the three minute - 180 second moment of silence for the lives lost and the survivors of the bombing of the courthouse at Oklahoma City. CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN said the committee would stand at-ease. Number 324 CO-CHAIRMAN WILLIAMS resumed his questioning of Ms. Ruggles and asked her to explain some of her policies as outlined in her resume. MS. RUGGLES said, "I think it is the primary role of the Board of Game to ensure conservation of wildlife resources, because if we don't do that there won't be the wildlife resources available for people to hunt, to watch, to trap, etc. Particularly, if we are interested in intensively managing wildlife to benefit consumptive users, as the intensive management law requires, we have got to make sure that those wildlife populations are there which means our primary concern must be conservation." CO-CHAIRMAN WILLIAMS said he interpreted that to mean that her primary purpose was to protect the game. He asked how the people factor played into that. MS. RUGGLES responded that in order for people to be able to utilize wildlife, the wildlife has to be there to begin with. She added, "We cannot use wildlife in such a way that we deplete populations and end up with nothing left for people to use. The two go hand-in-hand. I don't think you can have one without the other." CO-CHAIRMAN WILLIAMS asked if Ms. Ruggles wanted to save the wolf, also. MS. RUGGLES was unsure what the Co-Chairman Williams meant by the term "save." She said, "The wolf is one of many factors within the wild systems in which we exist, moose exist, caribou exist, the wolf is just one of these factors. It is certainly something that is part of our decision making." Number 446 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN asked if it came to a point that game were limited, should man have a priority over the wolf? MS. RUGGLES responded if that was one of the areas where the public and the Board of Game had decided that intensive management was to be implemented, then yes. But even within intensive management, it is not the goal in any intensive management plan that the Board of Game has implemented to date, to eliminate wolf populations or bear populations or any other population. CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN wanted to know Ms. Ruggles' position on where the wolf stands in the priority in the food chain with man. Number 498 MS. RUGGLES replied, "If it is determined in an area where the board has said, `Yes, this is a place where we are going to carry out intensive management,' and, if the biological data that we have from the department indicates that wolves are a limiting factor at that time under those circumstances, then wolf management is certainly called for." Number 523 MS. RUGGLES felt it necessary that the committee understand, "the limiting of wolf populations is not always going to get us where we want to go. It is not a panacea." During her years on the board, she had seen a couple of points of view that have been taken. One is that a wolf shouldn't be touched any where, under any circumstances, anyhow. She didn't think that point of view was very productive. Another point of view expressed has been that always, no matter what the circumstances, wolves are a problem. She pointed out that is also not the case from a scientific point of view. She said, "There are instances where the problem may be bears and not wolves, where the problem may be a whole string of bad winters and/or bad summers, or may be limiting habitat, which is why I say it depends on the specific circumstances. If we are given a report - information from the department that indicates that in an area where the Board of Game is interested in carrying out intensive management, wolves are limiting to the particular ungulate population in question and that limiting one population below what normal hunting and trapping would do, would give a boost to that ungulate population, then that's a legitimate thing to do." REPRESENTATIVE OGAN asked if she placed a higher on priority on consumptive use of wildlife viewing? Number 605 MS. RUGGLES insisted that her priority depends on how the state is managing a particular area. In areas where our priority is to manage for consumptive use, then that is where my priority lies. If it happens to be in an area where the priority is to manage for viewing, and there aren't very many places where we do that, then that is the appropriate priority. It depends entirely upon the priority that the board has set for any given area. Number 622 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN referred to the Lt. Governor's proposal and asked Ms. Ruggles if she felt that preference for rural use ... would you suggest that urban hunters be reduced rather than wolf predation or bear predation or whatever? Number 666 MS. RUGGLES repeated that if it is an area that the Alaska Board of Game has determined is an area suitable for intensive management, and if the information that we have from the department indicates that reduction of whatever predator population has been picked will help us achieve the goals that have been established, then yes. CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN thanked Ms. Ruggles for her testimony. Confirmation hearing Victor Van Ballenberghe, Board of Game VICTOR VAN BALLENBERGHE, Governor Appointment, Board of Game, stated that he had three basic reasons for having an interest in wanting to serve on the Alaska Board of Game. He said, "First, I feel I am well qualified, professionally and personally. I have been in the state since 1974. Over that 22 year period, I have had an active interest and I've been a participant in wildlife issues here in the state." DR. VAN BALLENBERGHE continued, "I have worked as a research biologist for the Alaska Department of Fish and Game and for the U.S. Forest Service. I have done research on moose and wolves, two species of interest to the board and to the public. I have published numerous technical and popular articles on wildlife issues over the years. I feel professionally well qualified to sit on the board. DR. VAN BALLENBERGHE further stated, "Above that, I have had a lifelong interest in hunting, I grew up on a farm. I do not think I have missed a single hunting season in the last 40 years hunting something, someplace; it hasn't all been in Alaska, much of it has been outside of Alaska. I think I have a good feeling for what the hunting public in Alaska desires in the way of wildlife management. I talked to many people that are hunters, I have friends that are hunters, I participate in the activity myself and I feel I have a good understanding of how hunters view wildlife management in the state." Number 850 DR. VAN BALLENBERGHE continued, "Secondly, I served a previous term on the Board of Game. In 1985, Governor Sheffield appointed me to the board. I served one term from 1985-1988. I gained a great deal of knowledge and experience as a result of that term. I feel I learned a lot. Quite frankly, if I had to do some things over again, I'd do it. I feel that some of the actions that we took at that time alienated some segments of the public and some of them remember what happened back then and some of them are probably going to show up here today in fact, and tell you about it. I was a little bit younger then and I think I have learned over the years that things are not quite as simple as they were then and I'd like to have another opportunity to serve on the board and address some of those same issues. And I might say that some of the issues that we addressed at that time, are still around today, and those relate to wolf management, bear baiting and virtually all the major important issues. We tried to deal with them then, and this board will try to deal with them now." Number 899 DR. VAN BALLENBERGHE proceeded, "Thirdly, as you all know the issue of wildlife management in Alaska is contentious these days. There seems to be dissatisfaction among major segments of the public related to wildlife management. This has created a rift among people interested in wildlife issues. As a biologist and as a person interested in the issues and as someone who I think can be fair and open minded and listen to all sides of the issues, I think I can contribute to the board process. I think we have evidence now from the March board meeting in Fairbanks that the board functions well in its present make up. I think we did a lot of things for hunters in terms of providing opportunity and providing things that hunters are interested in at that March board meeting. That is evidence that this board as it is presently constituted, can function well." Number 960 DR. VAN BALLENBERGHE referred to letter prepared by Wayne Regelin, Director, Division of Wildlife Conservation, Department of Fish and Game, summarizing board activity at the March meeting and emphasizing that the vast majority of it was beneficial to hunters. DR. VAN BALLENBERGHE said, "My own view is a little more optimistic than some regarding wildlife management in the state. I look around the state as a hunter, as a person interested in wildlife issues and I see lots of bright spots. I see the Nelchina caribou herd where the board acted to triple the harvest in one year and provide hunting opportunity to many residents of the state. I see other caribou herds at high levels, I see some moose populations that are in trouble, but many others that are not." Number 999 DR. VAN BALLENBERGHE concluded it is for these reasons that he would like very much like to serve another term on the board. CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN asked if committee members had questions of Dr. Van Ballenberghe. Number 1006 REPRESENTATIVE IRENE NICHOLIA pointed out that Dr. Van Ballenberghe was a former employee of the Alaska Department of Fish and Game. She asked him to describe his relationship with the department at that time. Number 1021 DR. VAN BALLENBERGHE replied that he had worked for the Department of Fish and Game from 1974 - 1980. He said, "My jobs were first of all, as a research biologist in the Glennallen area doing work on moose and wolves, then as the statewide fur bearer biologist in Fairbanks. I then left that position and went to work in my present job as a researcher for the forest service." He performed the duties well, his evaluations were good and he considers it to have been a positive learning experience. Number 1056 REPRESENTATIVE NICHOLIA inquired if there were hard feelings when Dr. Van Ballenberghe left the employ of the ADF&G. DR. VAN BALLENBERGHE replied, "I left the Department of Fish and Game to take a job that I considered more promising than the research potential that I had. As with any employee, I guess there were a few rough spots from time to time. But I certainly bear no ill will toward the department. I have many friends and colleagues in the department who I respect as professional wild lifers." Number 1084 REPRESENTATIVE NICHOLIA advised Dr. Ballenberghe that she had received a letter describing him as doing everything he could to obstruct the department's proposals in his previous term. Number 1096 DR. VAN BALLENBERGHE felt that description was a little extreme and added, "I think that the record is clear. One could go back and resurrect my voting record as a member of the board from 1985-1988, and I believe the record would probably show that on the vast majority of proposals that came from the Department of Fish and Game, I voted in favor of them. There were a few that I opposed, that the board opposed, and that did not move forward, but I think it's extreme to say that I did everything to oppose those proposals. I just simply don't believe that is accurate." Number 1132 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN confirmed that Dr. Van Ballenberghe has been a federal biologist since 1980. He asked the witness if he saw a conflict between being a federal biologist and being on a state board of game. DR. VAN BALLENBERGHE replied, "No Sir, I don't." REPRESENTATIVE OGAN said, "Do you realize that you take an oath to defend the Constitution of the state of Alaska, when you serve on that?" DR. VAN BALLENBERGHE stated, "I already have signed that." REPRESENTATIVE OGAN said, "Do you feel it is a violation of the Tenth Amendment of the U.S. Constitution and a violation of the statehood compact to have the federal government managing fish and wildlife in the state?" Number 1177 DR. VAN BALLENBERGHE responded, "That would be a very complex, legal question I guess, and to be honest with you, not being an attorney, I really don't feel qualified to answer that question." Number 1192 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN pointed out that the people who drafted the Constitution were not attorneys, they were simple men with a basic concept, and he thought they drafted it in a way that the average guy can understand it. He asked Dr. Van Ballenberghe if he was familiar with the Tenth Amendment of the U.S. Constitution?" Number 1208 DR. VAN BALLENBERGHE stated it had been a while since he read it. Number 1213 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN suggested that Dr. Van Ballenberghe read it and added, "It says the powers that are not delegated to federal government are retained by the states and the people. It is clear to me that in light of the Statehood Compact which guarantees that the state will manage fish and wildlife. The compact is like a contract. The federal government is exceeding the Tenth Amendment of the U.S. Constitution violating our Statehood Compact. And you don't see a conflict with you being a federal biologist?" Number 1244 DR. BALLENBERGHE replied, "No, I don't. As a federal employee, sitting on the Board of Game, my opportunities to push any kind of a federal take over of wildlife would be extremely limited. I mean, even if I wished to do that, which I certainly do not, my strong personal view, as not only a federal employee but also a citizen of the state, is that the proper management authority of resident wildlife in the state, is the state of Alaska. That's clear. So, I think we're probably coming at this from a little bit different angles because as an individual, I feel qualified and competent and able to sit on the board. And I might add that both the state and my employer have tried to take several significant steps to minimize any conflict of interest situation, here. For example, when I'm at board meetings, I'm on leave; I'm not acting as a federal employee there in any capacity and there are other steps." Number 1329 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN said, "The Lieutenant Governor of this state has been circulating various drafts of a compromise because of the long standing conflict between who might ultimately be the best manager of our game. Especially, as it applies to the federal portion of our state, federal ownership. Did I misunderstand your answer to Representative Ogan that you are in favor of state management or are you strictly talking about state land as opposed to federal land?" Number 1372 DR. VAN BALLENBERGHE answered, "No, sir, I am talking about management of all resident wildlife within the state of Alaska, no matter where it occurs." Number 1380 REPRESENTATIVE DAVIES asked the witness to expand on his view of the appropriateness of the use of intensive game management. Number 1396 DR. VAN BALLENBERGHE replied, "I believe, with regard to any of these larger issues that come before the Board of Game, whether it be subsistence management or intensive management or whatever, that the Board of Game's function is to do the best it can to implement regulations which carry out the statutes and the court decisions that are important in these large issues. And to the degree that the legislature has passed intensive management legislation, I certainly believe that the board needs to carry out the full intent and spirit of that legislation. Certainly, there are areas around the state in which the board has already acted in terms of designating them as intensive management areas, and one of those is the Nelchina Basin Game Management Unit 13, where I previously worked and I've had a long term interest and in my view as a game board member, is that we need to do what it takes to carry out that legislation and we will proceed to do that, I am sure." Number 1487 REPRESENTATIVE DON LONG referred to an earlier statement by Dr. Van Ballenberghe about possibly alienating some organizations and that he may have to correct those, and asked if that meant that Dr. Van Ballenberghe was swinging over to one side or the other? Number 1506 DR. VAN BALLENBERGHE replied, "We all, I think, change our views over time; at least I certainly have. And as I indicated, we took some actions and I took some actions as a board member ten years ago that if I had to do it over again, I would have done a little differently. Those actions, in some cases, alienated some people and I just don't think that it was in some cases, the proper way to go about that. Having learned from that experience and having had 10 additional years to think about it and to see how times have changed, yes, my views have changed." REPRESENTATIVE OGAN asked if Dr. Van Ballenberghe had stated the state and federal government had taken significant measures to avoid conflicts of interest? DR. VAN BALLENBERGHE said that was correct. REPRESENTATIVE OGAN asked what those measures were. Number 1556 DR. VAN BALLENBERGHE responded, "When I am at a board meeting, I am on leave. I am not there as a federal employee and I am not there in any other capacity than as a citizen of the state." DR. VAN BALLENBERGHE further responded, "Secondly, as I did before on the board, in order to avoid the appearance of a conflict of interest, which by the way, the issue never arose during my previous term. I had the exact same position then as I have now. I served three years on the board and really, the issue of conflict of interest as a federal employee, did not come up during that time. I realize now things are a bit different." Number 1611 DR. VAN BALLENBERGHE continued, "As I did then, on specific regulation proposals that pertain, for example, to the Tongass Forest, I have agreed to abstain from deliberations and votes on those proposals in order to avoid a conflict of interest. And you know, we have tried to be sensitive to the fact that I am a federal employee. I might point out that my role as a federal employee, is entirely in research. It has nothing to do with policy or management in any regard, in that the structure of the forest service clearly separates research from policy and management. My boss is not the regional forester. I work for a different organization entirely of the forest service which is headquartered in Portland, Oregon." Number 1702 DR. VAN BALLENBERGHE clarified to Representative Ogan that he had offered to abstain on specific proposals that pertain, for example, to the Tongass National Forest where it might be perceived that he, as a forest service employee, might have a conflict of interest in dealing with those. Number 1721 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN stated, "Based on that, I would ascertain that would basically render you ineffective to vote in the state's interest if there is a conflict between the state and federal management because of your conflict. You would have to abstain from voting on that and it would weaken the state's position." Number 1742 DR. VAN BALLENBERGHE countered that, "In my previous term, I seem to recall abstaining on that same basis maybe three or four times during the three year appointment. I really think that your fears of having me on the game board, somehow advancing a federal take over agenda, are really unwarranted. My personal philosophy is not to do that and as I indicated in the House State Affairs Committee hearing, even if I wished to do it, I don't even know what the federal agenda is, to be honest with you. As far as I know, with regard to subsistence management of wildlife resources, the federal government would like to get out of it. Their budgetary situation is limited and I believe their official and public policy on it is to turn it back to the state, if and when the legalities are resolved. The Board of Game isn't going to resolve those legalities, one way or the other. I guess it's up to the legislature and the Congress and the courts to try to resolve that. So as a game board member, to be honest with you, I feel powerless -- even if I had some hidden agenda to advance the federal philosophy, whatever that is, I feel powerless as one member of a seven member board to be able to do that." Number 1929 REPRESENTATIVE DAVIES directed his question to an earlier comment by Dr. Van Ballenberghe and said, "What I thought I heard you say, as an employee of the forest service, you were concerned about apparent conflicts with respect to forestry issues, but that on game management issues that you did not feel that you would have to abstain from voting?" Number 1955 DR. VAN BALLENBERGHE replied that all proposals before the board relate to wildlife management, to hunting or trapping regulations. REPRESENTATIVE DAVIES said he was talking about larger issues that don't have a specificity with respect to the Tongass Forest. DR. VAN BALLENBERGHE anticipated no real or apparent conflicts in those issues. Number 1983 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN stated, "We are apparently still on an unsettled course as to who should have primacy of game and fish management. We have skirted around the Tenth Amendment, we've talked about the navigable waterways and the ownership of the land itself. I was very impressed with your earlier response to my question, you feel that the state should actually have jurisdiction over all the lands within the state border. Would you, go so far as to go on record saying that you would favor a resolution of the federal change of ANILCA rather than a constitutional change within the state, as the Lt. Governor is proposing?" Number 2048 DR. VAN BALLENBERGHE replied, "I think you give the game board members a whole lot more power maybe, than they actually have." CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN clarified that he was not asking whether he could change things, but rather Dr. Van Ballenberghe's personal view. Number 2067 DR. VAN BALLENBERGHE said, "I do not know, sir. I guess, I would have to consider that carefully. Better minds than I, for a long time, have tried to deal with solving the subsistence dilemma. And what has happened, from my perspective, as a result of the court decisions and the failed attempts to solve it in the legislative bodies is that we are at where we are at, today. And to be honest with you, I don't consider myself to be a subsistence policy expert. I consider myself to be some sort of a lowly wildlife biologist that is interested in being on the board and contributing that kind of expertise. I guess I would have to consider the ramifications of your question pretty carefully." Number 2135 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN stated, "I think I read that then as not being a redneck wild advocate, like I might be, for the state having complete jurisdiction. My concern sir, is the fact that even though you're a lowly biological scientist, your discussion among the members of the board would be of value. If there is a thread there, that maybe we should change the state's Constitution to allow a subsistence preference as opposed to maybe trying to get something changed on the federal level. You're moot on that; that is certainly your prerogative. I assume that's what you are saying." Number 2188 DR. VAN BALLENBERGHE said, "My response, sir ... my best response that I could give you is this, as a game board member, if confirmed, I am prepared to obey, follow and carry out to the best of my abilities the directions of the courts and the legislature and the Congress regarding subsistence - whatever it is. I might add, I have the same position on another issue which is the initiative on aerial hunting. I have played no role in that. I prefer to be neutral on that and let it go the way it will go, and then as a board member, to act accordingly. I just feel very uncomfortable in these very large issues, in coming forth with statements that one side or the other will be very unhappy with." CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN asked for a motion to move this nominee out of committee. Number 2270 REPRESENTATIVE DAVIES so moved. CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN asked if there was objection to moving Dr. Van Ballenberghe's nomination out of committee. Hearing no objection, it was moved. Confirmation hearing Greg Roczicka, Board of Game Number 2371 GREG ROCZICKA, Governor Appointment, Board of Game introduced himself stating, "I have a pretty hefty background in dealing with the front lines and the conflict and controversy when it comes to resource management issues." MR. ROCZICKA referred to earlier dialogue on federal and state issues and discussed the cooperation among the villages and the management regardless of who is in the driver's seat. He referred to the Goose Management Plan that was worked on in 1985 ...(CHANGE TAPE) TAPE 96-60, SIDE A Number 001 MR. ROCZICKA continued... "Regardless of what the political situation is, we still have to deal with it on the ground, on the front lines, with the people. Until such time as either the federal government can come up with a way to teach animals how to read or the state can get them to recognize boundaries -- that's what we're stuck with. That's the perspective I being in. I have dealt with conflict resolution consistently and that's the role that I will bring to the Board of Game, trying to come up with actions that fairly represent all the different users and interests." Number 090 REPRESENTATIVE KOTT asked Mr. Roczicka to comment on his hunting background; specifically, what type and how long. MR. ROCZICKA related that his has lived in western Alaska since the late 1960s and has hunted everything there is to hunt from fowl to small game and big game animals. Number 168 REPRESENTATIVE KOTT asked if Mr. Roczicka hunted as a licensed hunter or as a subsistence hunter. MR. ROCZICKA explained that he is licensed for both. Number 191 REPRESENTATIVE KOTT felt that Ms. Ruggles and Dr. Van Ballenberghe bring both expertise and experience to the board and both have strong personalities and potentially, offer some strong influences over various types of decisions. He asked, "Based on their influence, do you think that you could step aside and make the best decision based on what you perceive are the facts?" Number 265 MR. ROCZICKA replied, "I am kind of like the only real rookie on that board now. One thing that did impress me at the Fairbanks meeting, which was quite an educational experience, when there were split votes on any matter that was before them, it was very seldom that those split votes were the same people. I look at it, as far, as a balance on the board right now for all the different user groups and interests across the state, it's about the best that it can be at this moment. Essentially, it's two people from the boondocks, you got two scientists, you got two who are sports advocates, I guess if you will, representing that side and then the person as the chairman is really about the most objective person I've seen. As far as the balance of the board, I was really impressed with it. To get to the basis of your question, I am not a real opinionated person but when I look at things and weigh them, I am going to come up with my own decision and I will certainly stand by it regardless of who's on what side." Number 380 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN asked Mr. Roczicka for his views on federal management of wildlife in the state of Alaska. Number 390 MR. ROCZICKA replied, "Lord, what a mess. The best thing that we could possibly do is get back to one management. I believe the state is the most appropriate entity to do that. The federal managers and biologists are essentially -- they're scared stiff, but they're stuck with it the same way the state is stuck with it right at the moment. Everybody's up against that wall and it's certainly out of my hands. We have to deal with it on the ground, on the front lines with the people and the regulations. But we're stuck with the current legislation or the current law and that's what we have to deal with. I'd love to see it come back to single management; things are certainly complicated enough and this compounds them." Number 467 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN offered two solutions to the problem and asked Mr. Roczicka whether he would chose to amend the Constitution or have the state amend the ANILCA. Also, he asked if Mr. Roczicka recognized the Tenth Amendment of the U.S. Constitution and if he was aware of the Statehood Compact and what it says about management of wildlife? Number 530 MR. ROCZICKA was not intimately familiar with the language, but stated he does favor the state having control. He said, "I believe the state does have a subsistence law that already says there is a preference for subsistence and that applies across the board to everyone regardless of race, location, et cetera. I do feel in some cases that it's only on paper and not in practical application and I do favor the state having control." REPRESENTATIVE OGAN asked Mr. Roczicka if he would favor amending ANILCA. MR. ROCZICKA responded that it would have to be a compromise. He referred to the Lieutenant Governor's proposal as being the closest to a solution which he felt was fair across the board. CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN asked if Mr. Roczicka had said the state had a subsistence preference or the federal government? MR. ROCZICKA reiterated the state does have a subsistence law that states a subsistence preference. CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN said he thought the problem was that the state has a Constitution that forbids that. He thought it was the federal government that says there would be a subsistence preference. MR. ROCZICKA said, "I guess my reading on it was that it was in the interpretation of how it's applied; that the state has a subsistence preference but it can't break it down into the geographical -- the urban and rural is the only place the conflict is, in my mind or from my understanding. But the state does have a law that states subsistence as a priority use." Number 653 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN requested that the people waiting to testify via teleconference adhere to the time limitation and not repeat the prior speaker's comments. Number 720 WILLIAM GOSSWEILER, Chief, Wildlife and Natural Resources, United States Army, stationed in Alaska, apprised the committee that the Army has had a longstanding and has been a proud member of the Alaskan community with almost 2,000,000 acres of land on Fort Greely, Fort Richardson and Fort Wainwright. He said, "The military strives to strike a genuine balance in managing its wildlife and other natural resources. That would be a balance that we would consider a military mission, the ability to provide public use of all the lands, and yet maintain good conservation practices. We have a strong group of sportsmen and women in the military. We have, in my opinion very, very good hunting and fishing and trapping programs on all three of our installations. Probably, the most obvious one is the Fort Richardson permit moose hunt that we do annually. It has become very popular in the state." MR. GOSSWEILER continued, "The reason I am here to speak on Mr. Van Ballenberghe's behalf is because since my time in Alaska, from 1978 as a wildlife manager, I have had occasion to coordinate and work with Mr. Van Ballenberghe on a number of different issues. I have always found him to be a very thoughtful and honest person who appears to research and evaluate things before rendering opinions and advice. He has always come across as being very respectful of other people's opinions and, more importantly, has demonstrated deep working knowledge of Alaska's wildlife. I feel his appointment to the board will prove to be a sensible choice and it would be perceived by wildlife managers such as myself, as a real endeavor on the part of the legislature to achieve a balance in managing all of our wildlife resources." MR. GOSSWEILER concluded, "All of our installations are open to the public for sport fishing and hunting and we intend that that will always be the situation." DON SHERWOOD, Alaska Boating Association, and also the Governor's appointed Power Boat Representative for the Big Susitna Rec Rivers Management Plan, said, "I am opposed to Vic and Anne coming on to the board again. Every year, we are losing more and more access as being denied to motorized users and nothing is being opened up. Vic has got a conflict of interest with the federal on our state board. We do not need the federales. Tony Knowles picked these people up and appointed them to the board and yet every year, we lose more and more access to motorized. The latest one is 1.6 million acres in the Tanana Flats. You take that way, just for the purpose of transporting moose, not geese and duck hunts, with the boats you can do everything else with the boats, but you cannot transport moose. Now, this is not (indisc.) biased, totally biased and not a biological ... fish and game up there said they have got to open it up and kill cows all up in there, the harvest is not there and so they are worried about overcrowding. This has been going on in the Minto Flats, up in the (indisc.) Valley. No airplanes go in and yet there's over 500,000 caribou in that area, 365 days of hunting, five (indisc.) bag limit and yet they took out our airplanes. This is not good management. This is not good decisions. So, we stand opposed to the confirmation of these two people." Number 1008 REPRESENTATIVE KOTT clarified his understanding was that Anne Ruggles and Victor Van Ballenberghe had been appointed under the Hickel Administration. Number 1027 NOEL WOODS, Palmer, testified in opposition to Anne Ruggles and Vic Van Ballenberghe for the Board of Game. He stated, "Both of them have had time to express their views and now it is time for others to have the same chance. In my opinion, both of these people oppose optimum sustained yield of animals for consumptive use. I am a consumptive user of game since 1945 and I have paid for this privilege. I believe those (indisc.) along with thousands of others from the Department of Game. I submit, that if you have any regard for the state employees of this department, you will recognize the wishes of those who pay their wages." Number 1067 TONY RUSS, Foundation for North American Wild Sheep in Alaska, testified that the membership was 400 to 500, and related that the foundation opposes the confirmation of Anne Ruggles and Vic Van Ballenberghe. He stated, "As far as Vic goes, a state biologist and a wildlife protection officer are both not allowed to serve on the game board and we do not think that Mr. Van Ballenberghe, who has the same duties as a federal employee, should have that opportunity either. We also think Alaskans are such a strong adversarial (indisc.) relationship with the federal government, we do not think he will be accepted on the board. It is hard to believe that he does not feel any conflict of interest and have that influence his decisions. He even admits that when it comes to the Tongass National Forest, he thinks he should abstain from those votes. If you can't vote on everything, why should you be on the board?" He noted the foundation also opposed the appointment of Anne Ruggles to the Board of Game. Number 1137 TOM SCARBOROUGH testified from Fairbanks stating that he opposes the confirmation of Anne Ruggles and Victor Van Ballenberghe. He reported that at a game board meeting, both Anne and Vic voted to close Unit 26 for moose, and then came up with no collective action. The moose population has declined over 50 percent. This is a violation of our new state statute on intensive management. Number 1195 GENE TEDERS representing the Interior Air Boaters Association said there were approximately 120 members who oppose the confirmation of Anne Ruggles and Vic Van Ballenberghe. He stated, "When they closed down the 1.6 million acres one month, and opened up the same area to cow hunting the next month, it tells me that they are trying to manage people and not game. I think we need somebody to manage the game and the resources and not the people and how they run them." Number 1223 MATT SINGER, Alaska Wildlife Alliance, expressed support for Anne Ruggles and Vic Van Ballenberghe to the game board. He said, "They bring much needed moderation to the board at a time when the public has lost faith in the board's ability to manage wildlife for all Alaskans. Mr. Van Ballenberghe and Ms. Ruggles' previous game board experience and professional background in biology lends a great deal of credibility to their appointment. It would be terribly shortsighted of the legislature to deny these confirmations due to the opposition of a small group of sport hunters. I urge you to remember that the wildlife in the state should be managed for the benefit of all Alaskans. Mr. Val Ballenberghe and Ms. Ruggles are thoughtful, prudent decision makers who represent both nonconsumptive and consumptive uses of wildlife. They deserve prompt confirmation." Number 1298 STEVE WELLS testified in support of Victor Van Ballenberghe and Anne Ruggles. He commented, "Dr. Van Ballenberghe's qualifications speak to themselves and in addition, he has gotten valuable experience with the wildlife public process from both his work experience and his former appointment to the board. In addition, I would like to add that I agree with what Mr. Gossweiler said about Dr. Ballenberghe's most important qualification and that is, I think he is a fair minded individual." Number 1303 LEO KEELER representing the Friends of the McNeil River said, "I would like to focus on an article in yesterday's metro newspaper, an editorial supporting Vic Van Ballenberghe and I support him for all of those reasons, plus what has been previously stated here. Anne Ruggles I believe, has served the board well in the past. Of course, appointed by Governor Hickel and now by Governor Knowles. I believe there is a strong lobbying effort by paid lobbyists working with the Senators down there and I just encourage you to think of the average Alaskan hunter that is out here and not so much to the lobbyists that are down there in front of you. I do have a prepared statement I would like to fax to Juneau, with some more detail, and I will send that down later." Number 1344 NICOLE DI PADUA expressed support for confirmation of Anne Ruggles and Vic Van Ballenberghe for the Board of Game and said, "It seems to me that we need an infusion of science in some of the important Board of Game discussions and decisions. Scientists tend to approach decision making with factual information and not emotions." Number 1383 ERIC WILLIAMSON, Registered Guide/Outfitter, said he also conducts fishing and wildlife watching expeditions and a member of the Anchorage Fish and Game Advisory Committee and a board director of the Alaska Wilderness Recreation Tourism Association. He said, "I am just speaking for myself today. I would like to endorse Anne Ruggles, Vic Van Ballenberghe and Greg Roczicka all together and I agree with what has been said previously. I think it is vital to prevent erosion of credibility of the board process and the ADF&G. On Greg Roczicka's behalf, my main area of operation is western Alaska and I feel that he has a good perspective on that." Number 1427 CATHERINE DENNERLEIN, National Audubon Society, said she would testify on behalf of herself today but would submit for the record, a detailed letter from retired regional Vice President, David Cline on behalf of the National Audubon Society. She said, "I agree with many things that have been in support of Dr. Van Ballenberghe and I just would like to mention that since Alaska is viewed by so many millions of people throughout the nation and the world as the last great stronghold as a place for wildlife and truly, in magnificent wild settings. It is a place for people of diverse backgrounds and interests to continue to derive benefits from wildlife without causing lasting damage to the resource. I think that the public deserves a very scientifically, sophisticated and credible wildlife conservation program. I echo the concerns that Mr. Roczicka mentioned earlier about having a very strong state Department of Fish and Game and it is very important that we have good management here in Alaska. I think that Dr. Van Ballenberghe has been a very excellent public servant and would move Alaska in the right direction to keep us from becoming that conservation battleground." Number 1509 SARA HANNAN, Executive Director, Alaska Environmental Lobby, said she would testify today as a life long Alaska and life long hunter. She said, "I am here to talk to you about the Board of Game process and encourage you to remember that when you are talking about public policy makers, if each of you were judged singly on one vote you took on one issue in isolation from your capabilities and dedication to the committee process, the hard work you put in for your constituents, we could probably take any one of you, any one issue, and find a whole lot of people in Alaska who are think you are not credible because of that vote. And that is not the way to judge whether you're doing your job and whether you're good for Alaska. " She noted the committee had previously heard legislation addressing the Board of Game and Board of Fish confirmation process, which she believed puts everyone in a back corner because in essence, these people are being elected after they've service. She stated, "Now I would like to speak exclusively about Anne Ruggles who I do know personally. I don't know Mr. Roczicka. I don't know Mr. Van Ballenberghe. But I know Anne Ruggles and she is a committed, capable Alaskan who has good credentials to serve on this board. She certainly has made decisions that not every Alaskan agrees with but that doesn't mean that she is not doing her job to represent the state of Alaska in a very complex way." MS. HANNAN continued, "We have had members of this committee speak this morning and say, `It should be clear in law because the Tenth Amendment and the Statehood Compact say this.' None of us are attorneys at this table and we have to defer to the fact that there are a lot of attorneys in the U.S. who say it's not that clear. You and I may read that constitution one way and say it's absolutely clear. And you and I may not know that the subsistence law that the state of Alaska has on books - it's not a problem that we have a subsistence law except for the federal attorneys say it doesn't meet their standard because it doesn't give a rural preference or a Native preference, but our state legal advocates say we can't do that. Those are things that attorneys have to argue about, not the Board of Game." MS. HANNAN further stated, "The Board of Game's job is to carry out to the best of the deliberative process the parameters that you give them in statute. When those statutes change, they've got to start coming back, does the intensive game management statute passed two years ago, what does this mean now. It is a slow and deliberative process. Our Board of Game represents an extensive network of advisory committees and citizens and it's a tough job. I would urge you today to confirm those three members and especially, Anne Ruggles, who I know personally and I think is the most credible scientific kind of mind that we want to see on the Board of Game." Number 1678 DICK BISHOP, Executive Director, Alaska Outdoor Council, said, "The council is an umbrella organization of 45 member groups with about 1,200 individual members, with a total membership of somewhere between 11,000 and 12,000 people. Our purposes are to ensure sound conservation of fish and wildlife and habitats; fair access on the part of the public to uses of those resources; and fair public access to the public lands of Alaska, be they state or federal." Number 1726 MR. BISHOP related, "The Alaska Outdoor Council Board of Directors voted to oppose Dr. Victor Van Ballenberghe and Anne Ruggles for confirmation to the Board of Game. I'd like to point out the Board of Directors of the council includes a number of learned people: the former commissioner of the Department of Fish and Game, Carl Rosier, is one of our board members; a retired biologist who has worked with both Anne Ruggles and in a professional capacity with, Dr. Van Ballenberghe, Dr. Al Franzman (sp), is on our board; we have a doctor of agricultural economics, Peter Probasco, who has relatives who work in the ADF&G; and a number of other long time Alaskans including retired biologists from the forest service. So, it's a fairly well informed group of people I would say, relatively speaking." MR. BISHOP continued, "Based on our members and our board's experience in working with these two individuals over a number years - a varying number depending on the individual experience, we don't believe that the best interest of sound conservation and fair allocation of Alaska's game resources will be served by their involvement in the board process." Number 1788 MR. BISHOP referred to map of Alaska pointing out the area the Board of Game has direct influence on the policies which is 40 percent of Alaska and said, "As an organization, we believe that it is very important to positively address the interests of hunters, trappers in those areas because the other 60 percent is largely off limits and if the federal government keeps going the way they're going, it's going to be even less than 40 percent that the board has. But in fact, in terms of management to address the interests of hunters, trappers and fishers by whatever description they may have, that's the area the Board of Game has influence on and we think it is absolutely essential that they have a strong interest in accommodating those interests and values." Number 1826 REPRESENTATIVE KOTT asked Mr. Bishop if the Alaska Outdoor Council had deliberated on the third nominee, Greg Roczicka. Number 1830 MR. BISHOP said the council had no objection to Mr. Roczicka's appointment. Number 1844 JOEL BENNETT testified from Juneau, stating "I am one of the hunters that Dick Bishop just referred to. I have been a hunter for 28 years, actively, ... most species of the state, licensed every year. I'd like to urge your approval of both these well qualified board appointments. I do not know Mr. Roczicka, but I believe him to be at that same level. The state should be proud to have individuals of this caliber serving on the board. I believe they represent both responsible hunting interests and other interests in wildlife management." Number 1874 REPRESENTATIVE KOTT asked Mr. Bennett if he knew any of these individuals on a personal basis. MR. BENNETT said he is personally acquainted with Anne Ruggles and Dr. Van Ballenberghe. RICHARD WALLEN prepared statement is included into the record: "My name is Richard Wallen, I live at 2940 Douglas Highway in Juneau. I was a game biologist with the Alaska Department of Fish and Game for about five years in the early 1960s. For the last 30 years, I have been self-employed as an artist and small businessman here in Alaska. I served a three year term on the Alaska Board of Game beginning in 1990. "I am here to urge the confirmation of Ann Ruggles and Dr. Vic Van Ballenberghe to the Board of Game. In supporting these people, I do not intend to imply that I do not support the third candidate. From everything I hear he is a valuable board member. However, I do not know him or know much about him. I met both of the other candidates during my time on the board and was impressed with their interest, knowledge of wildlife matters and their competence and dedication to work on issues that come before the board. I believe both of them have fairly represented many diverse interests in wildlife management matters during their previous terms on the board, and will continue to do so in the future. Their judgement and balance is of great value to the board and to Alaskans." ADJOURNMENT There being no further business to come before the House Resources Committee, Chairman Green adjourned the meeting at 10:11 a.m.