HOUSE RESOURCES STANDING COMMITTEE February 9, 1996 9:09 a.m. MEMBERS PRESENT Representative Joe Green, Co-Chairman Representative William K. "Bill" Williams, Co-Chairman Representative Scott Ogan, Vice Chairman Representative Alan Austerman Representative John Davies Representative Pete Kott Representative Irene Nicholia MEMBERS ABSENT Representative Barnes Representative Long COMMITTEE CALENDAR HOUSE BILL NO. 313 "An Act relating to fees for big game tags for wolves; and providing for an effective date." - HEARD AND HELD WORK SESSION: AIR QUALITY PLAN REGULATIONS PREVIOUS ACTION BILL: HB 313 SHORT TITLE: BIG GAME TAGS FOR WOLVES SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) OGAN JRN-DATE JRN-PG ACTION 04/20/95 1399 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S) 04/20/95 1399 (H) RESOURCES, FINANCE 02/07/96 (H) RES AT 8:00 AM CAPITOL 124 WITNESS REGISTER BO FORREST Alaska Environmental Lobby P. O. Box 22151 Juneau, AK 99801 Telephone: (907) 463-3366 POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in opposition to HB 313. KEN TAYLOR, Deputy Director Division of Wildlife Conservation Department of Fish and Game P. O. Box 240020 Douglas, AK 99824-0020 Telephone: (907) 465-4192 POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HB 313. LEONARD D. VERRELLI, Director Division of Air & Water Quality Department of Environmental Conservation 410 Willoughby Avenue, Suite 105 Juneau, AK 99801-1975 Telephone: (907) 465-5104 POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on air quality plan regulations. JOHN STONE, Chief Air Quality Maintenance Division of Air & Water Quality 410 Willoughby Avenue, Suite 105 Juneau, AK 99801-1975 Telephone: (907) 465-5103 POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on air quality plan regulations. ACTION NARRATIVE TAPE 96-15, SIDE A Number 000 CO-CHAIRMAN JOE GREEN called the House Resources Committee meeting to order at 9:09 a.m. Members present at the call to order were Representatives Green, Williams, Ogan, Austerman, Davies, and Kott. Representatives Barnes, Long and Nicholia were absent. CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN said the committee would hear HB 313 in addition to the Department of Environmental Conservation presentation. The DEC will explain what they have done to address the concerns of the witnesses at the hearing on January 18, 1996. HB 313 - BIG GAME TAGS FOR WOLVES Number 100 BO FORREST, Volunteer, Alaska Environmental Lobby, testified that in the short time of being in Alaska, he had witnessed some pretty amazing arguments about what is best for the state of Alaska. He said HB 313 is a real beauty. MR. FORREST said he tried to identify a list of concerns aside from giving away $42,000 of the state's money. He felt that HB 313 will not affect the state's animal population one way or the other, unless the tourist is considered an animal. He stated that this bill might attract some wealthy trophy hunter from the outside to tip his guide a bit more. MR. FORREST said his interpretation of HB 313 is, "here hang on to my wallet, while I blast off my other foot." Number 275 KEN TAYLOR, Deputy Director, Division of Wildlife Conservation, Alaska Department of Fish and Game, testified that HB 313 would reduce the license fee for nonresidents and nonresident aliens. Currently, there are about 10,000 nonresidents that hunt in Alaska every year. Of these, about 250 will buy a wolf tag at the current price. There are about 30 nonresident aliens that buy a wolf tag every year. Of the 250 people with the tags, they harvest about 30 wolves a year. MR. TAYLOR said, reducing the tag fee to $10 or $15 as stated in this bill would probably stimulate some harvest. With the 10-15 percent of the people buying tags now, that would not be a serious increase in the harvest. As far as its affect on populations, it would have little or no affect and, probably, put more people in the field hunting wolves. Number 383 MR. TAYLOR said the reduction of the Fish and Game Fund by $42,000, is not a large percentage. He said due to the short notice of the hearing, he did not know the position of the department on HB 313. But, he said the bill is fairly simple and straight forward, and he does not see either a major wildlife concern or a major fiscal concern. Number 469 REPRESENTATIVE SCOTT OGAN remarked that he offered HB 313 as a alternative way to manage wolves in the state. He said 10,000 nonresident hunters come to Alaska every year. Wolf tags are expensive, and if we lowered the price, the incidental take of wolves could significantly increase. There is no guarantee, but the state has spent thousands and thousands of dollars on ill conceived, and ineffective control programs. This concept would allow the Board of Game to manage the level of harvest by adjusting the seasons. REPRESENTATIVE OGAN said his intent was to give the Board of Game tools to help them manage wolf populations in certain areas. In the areas where there are problems, they can set more liberal bag limits and seasons, and more hunters in the field will be carrying a wolf tag. Number 623 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN felt that HB 313 is a cost effective way to give the Board of Game an opportunity to manage wolves. He asked for the committee's support in passing the bill. Number 644 REPRESENTATIVE JOHN DAVIES said he appreciated the motivation in trying to find a way to do intensive game management, with respect to wolves, in a way that will be less controversial. He said for that reason the proposal has merits, but, geographically, there is no way to direct where takes occur. We could be taking wolves in areas where there is no problem and we might be taking wolves where populations are already low. He referred to testimony on SB 81 on January 31, 1996. Number 737 REPRESENTATIVE DAVIES said his second concern was that the state would be losing revenues while it encouraged people to hunt wolves in an area where it did not make any difference. REPRESENTATIVE DAVIES referred to Mr. Taylor's testimony that there might only be minimal effect on the wolf populations: therefore, the only affect of this bill would be the loss of revenue. He said he cannot support HB 313 as it is currently written. He suggested an alternative would be to reconstruct HB 313 so that it is directed at the areas where the Board of Game has determined that the state needs intensive harvest. Number 795 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN countered that he felt HB 313 is not indiscriminate because it does allow the Board of Game to set seasons and bag limits. If there are areas where the board does not want a lot of harvest, they simply tighten up the seasons and the bag limits. It gives them an active management tool to place seasons and bag limits according to what kind of pressure they want on the animal. Number 830 CO-CHAIRMAN BILL WILLIAMS stated that the bill still results in loss of revenue and it, potentially, adds more management to an issue the state is trying to cut back on. REPRESENTATIVE OGAN said the cry he hears is that there is not enough intensive management of wildlife. Number 967 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN asked Mr. Taylor to return to the table and address this controversy. MR. TAYLOR responded that it is difficult to say how much impact HB 313 would have if it were applied statewide. The legislature has dealt with these issues previously for brown bear. For instance, the legislature enacted a statute authorizing the board to waive tag fees in areas where the board wanted to direct more pressure. If that is a possibility for resolving the disagreement on the committee, it might be something that you wish to consider. MR. TAYLOR offered that a similar statute giving the board the flexibility to waive nonresident tag fees entirely, in those areas the board has identified for intensive management, might be more directed toward the problem. Number 1025 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN asked if either case added to the administrative requirements for the Department of Fish and Game. MR. TAYLOR felt that the administrative requirements would not be increased. Number 1051 REPRESENTATIVE IRENE NICHOLIA said wolves are usually taken during the winter. She pointed out that a lot of guiding activity takes place during the moose and caribou hunting seasons. She asked Mr. Taylor how much guiding activity occurs during the winter months. Number 1111 MR. TAYLOR said guiding activity predominately occurs during the fall season for moose, caribou and brown bear. Some clients will buy a wolf tag on the off chance that they see a wolf out on their hunt. MR. TAYLOR said in the late 1980s and early 1990s, there was some guiding activities exclusively for wolves during the wintertime in Unit 13, the Nelchina Basin, and Unit 26(B), along the Haul Road at Prudhoe Bay. He said that guiding activity is almost exclusively done during the fall. Number 1149 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN asked explanation of the incidental taking of wolves. MR. TAYLOR talked about Board of Game restrictions on wolf hunting. He said a hunter cannot hunt the say day he is airborne. Almost all wolf harvest is incidental while moose or caribou hunting. Number 1196 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN said HB 313 is designed to enhance incidental take. He said he does not personally know of anyone who hunts wolves in fall. He said there is very little pressure on the wolves because of that. He discussed his experience on the guide board. Number 1305 REPRESENTATIVE DAVIES remarked that if HB 313 could be modified so that the reduction would be at the discretion of the Board of Game; the state could then surgically direct any loss of revenue into an area where there is a problem. He said, as the bill stands now, it is too indiscriminate and he cannot support it. Number 1348 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN expressed willingness to look at modifying HB 313. He suggested that the committee hold the bill for further review. Number 1363 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN asked if the committee objected to holding the bill. There were no objections. Number 1381 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN said the committee would hear from the Department of Environmental Conservation concerning the controversial issues that arose between the "permittees" and the ADEC during the House Resources Committee meeting of January 18, 1996. Number 1413 LEONARD D. VERRELLI, Director, Division of Air & Water Quality, Department of Environmental Conservation came forward with JOHN STONE, Chief, Air Quality Maintenance Section, Division of Air & Water Quality, Department of Environmental Conservation. Number 1437 MR. STONE reiterated that the Air Quality Maintenance Section is responsible for maintaining primacy of permit programs in the state of Alaska. MR. VERRELLI referred to the DEC's packet and addressed a letter from Steven A. Torok, Senior Representative, Environmental Protection Agency with an attachment from EPA Region 10 responding to the question of how more restrictive the state program may be than the federal requirements. He said that letter, at least, from the Environmental Protection Agency's point of view would suggest that the Department's present program is less stringent than the federal law. That is why we have such a long list of disapprovals. MR. VERRELLI said the packet also included a letter dated January 18, 1996 listing 22 pages of deficiencies. MR. VERRELLI said the DEC had received a FAX from Marilyn Crockett, Alaska Oil and Gas Association, of a draft proposal as to how they could work together to answer the Alaska Stakeholder's Coalition questions and concerns along with EPA, in response to the hearing of January 18, 1996. MR. VERRELLI said the packet included a departmental letter to Ms. Crockett addressing how the DEC felt it should conduct its process, including the EPA, about what the disapproval meant and what the DEC had to do immediately and what could be deferred long term. The department is awaiting a response from Ms. Crockett. Number 1539 MR. VERRELLI said the DEC review would cover some of the concerns of the "coal fired" folks. He said a schedule of events is attached. Number 1585 MR. STONE recapped the Title V Permits Program status with the Environmental Protection Agency. A. A copy of EPA's February 8 letter to the ADEC which EPA states that Alaska's Title V program does not meet the minimum federal requirements. B. A copy of EPA's January 18, 1996 list of deficiencies in Alaska's Title V program. C. Several deficiencies must be addressed before EPA can approve Alaska's Title V program. D. ADEC plans to propose regulation changes in Title V 18 AAC 50 next week to address these deficiencies, and accept public comment for 30 days on the disapproval issues. E. The remaining Title V deficiencies do not have to be addressed before securing EPA approval of Alaska's Title V. program, however they will be addressed by ADEC over the next year. Number 1671 MR. STONE continued, recapping the Alaska Stakeholder's Coalition (ASC) proposal. A. The Alaska Stakeholder's Coalition submitted a proposal to ADEC for addressing their concerns on January 26, 1996. (Enclosed) B. A copy of Commissioner Brown's February 8 response to the ASC proposal ADEC agreed to address ASC's concerns, however we can not meet the tight schedule proposed by the ASC. The Open Meetings Act notice requirements and the work that must be done to address ASC's concerns and federal approval require more time than allowed for in the ASC proposal. We have committed to work as quickly as possible to address ASC's concerns. C. The ADEC is awaiting a response from the ASC on Commissioner Brown's counter proposal. If ASC agrees, we will hold a meeting as quickly as possible, no later than the end of February. D. In the first meeting, we plan to prioritize ASC's concerns, schedule additional meetings and discuss how the meetings will work. Number 1728 MR. STONE continued, the Interior Coal-Burners Excess Emissions Issue. A. The Coal Burners Group have requested changes to Alaska's emission standards so they can comply with the standards. B. A copy of the DEC's August 25, 1995 letter to Kathryn Lamal of GVEA describing how the coal burners could develop a new standard for federal approval. C. The December 4, 1995 Guide that describes how a member of the public, including operators of permitted facilities, can request changes to Alaska's federally-approved emission standards. D. It is our understanding that the coal burners are determining the extent of their noncompliance with the standards. This analysis is a prerequisite to determining how to set a new standard. Number 1770 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN asked Mr. Stone to keep him apprised of the results of the counter proposal from the Alaska Stakeholder's Coalition and other issues. Number 1808 MR. STONE suggested that Chairman Green send a representative to the first workshop meeting. He stressed the importance of having a representative from the EPA present at the start because most of the issues have to do with parts of Alaska's program that need federal approval. Number 1835 REPRESENTATIVE DAVIES referred to the disapproval issues and asked Mr. Stone if the changes in regulations were the proposed changes on February 16, 1996. Number 1864 MR. STONE said the ADEC's goal was to propose those changes this next week; hold the public comment period and then hold the public hearing. He said that time period was usually 30 days. He said after receiving public input, it is analyzed, the DEC makes changes and then sends it to the Department of Law for review. A several month process from start to finish. Number 1884 REPRESENTATIVE DAVIES asked if there is a "drop dead" point, with respect to EPA, where we have to have accomplished these changes in regulations with respect to the issue of losing primacy. Number 1897 MR. STONE responded that the EPA is in the process of promulgating an alternative operating permit program. In discussions with them, during the past two weeks, they have indicated that that program will be promulgated in April. That would be the "drop dead" date. Number 1922 REPRESENTATIVE DAVIES wanted to know what the bureaucratic time lag is from the time the program is submitted and reviewed and the EPA makes its decision. MR. STONE replied that the EPA, in the near future, would propose a "disapproval alternate interim approval." The EPA will accept comment on that approval option. In order to start that, we are agreeing to work as quickly as we can under the state administrative procedures to address the disapproval deficiencies. As soon as we complete that, then they can publish an approval. As soon as the DEC submits the final adopted regulations that have been certified by the Department of Law, there is about a two year delay in the federal register process. Then they will publish an interim approval. Number 1999 MR. VERRELLI said if the state is acting in good faith and moving forward to meet their immediate goal, the state is usually given the benefit of the doubt. Number 2033 REPRESENTATIVE DAVIES asked the department if they are reasonably confident that if we go through this process, we will retain primacy. The response was in the affirmative. Number 2040 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN wanted to know if the department is getting informal feedback from the EPA that yes, the state is moving in the right direction. Number 2057 MR. STONE replied that the department will try to involve the EPA in all work group meetings so the DEC does not develop something that the EPA will object to. Our intent is to have them actively involved in all the options that we consider with the stakeholders. Number 2073 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN commended the department for their progress toward accomplishing the goals with the Alaska Stakeholder's Coalition and the federal requirements. He assured the department that if there is any trailing legislation, that it does not cast any aspersions on the DEC, the state will have something as a backfall. ADJOURNMENT There being no further business to come before the House Resources Committee, Chairman Green adjourned the meeting at 9:50 a.m.