HOUSE RESOURCES STANDING COMMITTEE February 14, 1995 3:10 p.m. MEMBERS PRESENT Representative Joe Green, Co-Chairman Representative Bill Williams, Co-Chairman Representative Scott Ogan, Vice Chairman Representative Alan Austerman Representative Ramona Barnes Representative Irene Nicholia MEMBERS ABSENT Representative John Davies Representative Pete Kott Representative Eileen Maclean COMMITTEE CALENDAR Confirmation of Robert Hinman to the Big Game Commercial Services Board Confirmation Advanced Confirmation of Gene Burden, Commissioner, Department of Environmental Conservation Confirmation Advanced Confirmation of John Shively, Commissioner, Department of Natural Resources Confirmation Advanced WITNESS REGISTER ROBERT HINMAN, Appointee Big Game Commercial Services Board P.O. Box 3419 Juneau, AK 99803 Phone: 790-2754 POSITION STATEMENT: Answered questions regarding his confirmation GENE BURDEN, Commissioner-Designee Department of Environmental Conservation 410 Willoughby Ave., Ste. 105 Juneau, AK 99801 Phone: 465-5050 POSITION STATEMENT: Answered questions regarding his confirmation JOHN SHIVELY, Commissioner-Designee Department of Natural Resources 400 Willoughby Ave. Juneau, AK 99801 Phone: 465-2400 POSITION STATEMENT: Answered questions regarding his confirmation TAPE 95-15, SIDE A Number 000 The House Resources Committee was called to order by Co-Chairman Green at 3:10 p.m. Members present at the call to order were Representatives Green, Williams, Ogan, Austerman and Nicholia. Members absent were Representatives Barnes, Davies, Kott and MacLean. CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN stated Mat-Su, Seward and Tok were on teleconference for listen only. ROBERT HINMAN CONFIRMATION ROBERT HINMAN, APPOINTEE, BIG GAME COMMERCIAL SERVICES BOARD (BGCSB), stated he has been a resident of the state for approximately 30 years and spent most of his career working for the Alaska Department of Fish and Game (ADF&G) as a wildlife biologist. He said there are very few parts of the state he has not had the opportunity to see. After his retirement, he was appointed to the Legislative Task Force on Guiding and Game and following that, he was appointed to the BGCSB, of which he is currently serving as Vice Chairman. MR. HINMAN stated he is not now, has never been, or anticipates ever being a guide. However, he felt the industry is one which must be nurtured, protected, and controlled. He stressed guiding is a very important industry in the state and is important to the state's visitors as well. He said the work of the BGCSB has been very concentrated in the last several years due to the overthrow of the old system by the Supreme Court in the Oswichek case. He noted at that time, the legislature abolished the old board and established the BGCSB. He explained the BGCSB has basically reinvented the whole system. The legislature established new legislation which the board is implementing. MR. HINMAN said it has taken the board this long to implement most of the system and added that it is not complete yet. He felt the board has devised a workable system for the management of the guiding industry in the state. Number 096 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN said statutes governing the board "prohibit guide-outfitting, transporting, and other big game commercial service activities that are unsportsmanlike, unethical, unsafe and against principles of game conservation, degrading to a professional subject to this chapter, or that adversely affects natural resources." He stated there has been talk about a bill introduced earlier, as well as street talk about the few bad guides who have spoiled the reputation of guides as a group. He wondered if Mr. Hinman has any plans to address these rogue guides. MR. HINMAN responded most businesses have a few sour apples and he agreed that has been the case in the guiding industry as well. He said one important aspect of the BGCSB is that it not only is a regulatory board, but also has quasi-judicial powers to take action on individuals who have violated the laws and if necessary, assess fines or remove licenses. He pointed out that the BGCSB has taken actions on literally dozens and dozens of guides in the past several years. The board has removed licenses, suspended licenses, levied heavy fines, and has served notice to the industry that the board is intending to be even more strict in the future. MR. HINMAN said obviously the board has not been able to get all of the bad apples yet. He stated the investigator the board has at the Department of Commerce has made significant strides in the past year in working more cooperatively with the Department of Public Safety and has been able to be more effective and efficient in bringing cases before the BGCSB. He noted the investigator presently has 108 cases under consideration. REPRESENTATIVE ALAN AUSTERMAN recalled there had been discussions regarding the need for the BGCSB. He said many people say the program can be run through ADF&G. He wondered how Mr. Hinman felt about that suggestion. MR. HINMAN replied the program could be run by the ADF&G or any other organization. He said at one time the program was run under the ADF&G. He noted that much has changed since that time and if ADF&G or anyone else would take it over, they would need to have the same amount of or more manpower and funds to do it as under the present situation. He stated in regard to the need for the program, he felt if the state did not have any type of control by this board or any other group over the professional guides, there would be a situation of chaos--people who are not qualified would be running around purporting to be guides. MR. HINMAN pointed out there currently are statutes which say nonresidents hunting big game must have a guide, as well as all aliens hunting anything must have a guide. He said as long as the state has that type of requirement for visitors, it would seem logical the state has a moral duty to maintain quality of that system these people must abide by. Number 191 REPRESENTATIVE AUSTERMAN noted that Mr. Hinman's resume indicated he served as a charter boat captain. He said charter boat operations has some of the same connotations as big game hunting and he wondered if some day in the future the charter boat industry will require the same type of services that the BGCSB provides the guiding industry. MR. HINMAN responded he can foresee it, but he was not sure the charter boat business has the same degree of necessity that big game hunting has. He stressed the state does not require nonresident fishermen go out with a charter boat captain. He said the way the charter boat industry has grown in the past few years, there will be a need for increasing controls of some nature. REPRESENTATIVE SCOTT OGAN noted for the record he has known Mr. Hinman for almost two years while serving on the BGCSB. He stated he has no reservations about Mr. Hinman being confirmed to the BGCSB. Number 240 GENE BURDEN CONFIRMATION GENE BURDEN, COMMISSIONER-DESIGNEE, DEPARTMENT OF ENVIRONMENTAL CONSERVATION (DEC), said he started in his role as commissioner- designee for DEC on January 16. He stated he is a ten year resident of Alaska and during his time in Alaska he first worked for a small law firm and then accepted employment with Tesoro Alaska where he worked for a little over eight years. He added that he had worked for Tesoro for approximately three years in their corporate office in Texas. MR. BURDEN stated most of his earlier management experience was in the area of labor relations and human resources. He said he has limited experience in government but noted he did work for the city of Dallas. He received his bachelors and masters degrees at the University of Texas at Arlington and law degree from St. Mary's University in San Antonio. He told committee members his professional experience with General Telephone & Electronics ranged from labor relations administrator to area personnel manager to labor relations director. Upon joining Tesoro in 1989 he was the corporate manager of labor relations at a time when they had a variety of different unions, and activities ranging from mining on the East Coast to refineries in the Lower 48. MR. BURDEN said he served in a variety of capacities at Tesoro Alaska starting as their personnel manager and on to Vice President of Administration & Government Affairs. He then assumed responsibility for the environmental function. He stated during his time in the state he has had many opportunities to deal with the regulatory agencies as well as the legislature relating to Tesoro's business. REPRESENTATIVE AUSTERMAN noted there are many problems facing Alaska, particularly problems relating to the water and sewer issues in the rural areas. He asked Mr. Burden to comment on what he sees as the biggest obstacle confronting his department. MR. BURDEN responded there is a twofold problem relating to the water and sewer issues in the state--the magnitude of the problem in terms of the total expenses needed to address rural sanitation issues which really exist all over the state and then having systems that the people being served by them can maintain and not present a continuing financial obligation to the state. Number 327 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN said one of the issues which came up during the 18th Legislature regarding the 470 fund is that originally that fund was to establish some response depots around the state in strategic locations and that has never happened. He asked Mr. Burden to comment on establishing those depots. MR. BURDEN responded he does not have an established position on that issue. He said he would like to work with the department and the legislature to determine if spending money on establishing those depots is the best use of dollars, in view of the existence of private spill response operations around the state. He felt there are locations where it probably will serve the state's best interest to have certain equipment capabilities where it is not going to occur otherwise. He stressed he would like to have the opportunity to explore what is already in place, from a private sector standpoint, and ensure that where the department spends money is truly areas where it is truly needed. Number 350 REPRESENTATIVE RAMONA BARNES stated the law is very specific in regard to spill response depots. She asked Mr. Burden if it was his intent to ignore the law or amend the law. MR. BURDEN replied no. He stressed he wants to have a reason basis for where and what the department puts in these locations and if the department concludes that the law, as it is currently structured, is not in the best interest of the state, then he would want to consult with the legislature to determine a means to fix the problem. He said designating locations and what is in those locations is not specified in the law and is something the department needs to evaluate and make recommendations on. REPRESENTATIVE BARNES recalled when that law went into effect, Mr. Burden worked for Tesoro and the push for the law was not so DEC could have a slush fund but to establish spill response depots. Then when $50 million was reached, the fund would shut off until a disaster occurred. She felt the surcharge was a phony way to get a nickel a barrel from the oil companies. She noted the legislature has done some rectifying in the past. She said the oil companies are still paying three cents per barrel and asked Mr. Burden if he views that money as part of the department's budget or money there for a specific purpose. MR. BURDEN stated the two cents per barrel goes to establishing the $50 million reserve which now has been reached. He said the three cents goes to help fund ongoing prevention programs which is considered a part of the department's budget under the current structure. All of those spill prevention response activities which the department has are funded from those funds. Number 403 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN said the Regional Citizens' Advisory Councils, the producers, and DEC have indicated a desire to have a generic contingency plan. He asked Mr. Burden to comment on that plan. MR. BURDEN stated he wholeheartedly supports simplifying the contingency plan process and the contents of the contingency plans. He noted he has been on the other side of the table preparing contingency plans. He expressed concerns that the contingency plan has expanded to the point where in the event of another accident, the plan may be getting so complicated with material not specifically relevant to the response, that it needs to be readdressed. He noted the approach Representative Green mentioned is one that has been suggested. He added the department has had communication with one of the major cooperatives on the issue. He would like to steer a policy which will enable the department to simplify the process to the extent possible under current state law. CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN stated Anchorage and Fairbanks have both experienced problems with air quality. He wondered what Mr. Burden's attitude is about the use of alternate fuels such as compressed natural gas (CNG) and liquified natural gas (LNG). MR. BURDEN responded he is excited about the prospects of gas as a fuel. There is a supply of gas in the proximity of Anchorage and there are initiatives in Anchorage presently involving the municipality, the state, and private industry to try and make CNG available on a broader basis. He stated CNG burns clean, has a good reputation for safety, and offers a great opportunity to use another means to try and reduce the air emission issues in Anchorage and Fairbanks. He said unfortunately Fairbanks does not have the proximity to natural gas. Number 446 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN stated he is aware of some abuses of power by DEC including taking creative routes of enforcement. He asked Mr. Burden to comment on his position in regard to working with businesses. MR. BURDEN replied he is concerned about that perception and situations which can drive that perception. The department just completed a couple of days of strategic planning for setting specific objectives for the department and one of the categories was in the area of public contact. He said that category will involve customer service training for those people who have a lot of public contact. He stated if one looks at some of the many routes for that perception of the department, there are complex rules and regulations being dealt with. He noted a lot of the regulated community does not have the background and familiarity with the process. Therefore, part of the department's role is to educate the regulated community and the public as to what the laws and requirements are. He felt there are things which can be modified while still enforcing the laws of the state without jeopardizing the objectives of protecting human health and the environment. REPRESENTATIVE OGAN felt DEC and other agencies have quasi-judicial powers that circumvent due process rights. He said when an agency such as DEC has the authority, without a court action, to deprive someone of the their rights to use their property, he has a problem. He asked Mr. Burden to be sensitive to the matter. Number 503 REPRESENTATIVE BILL WILLIAMS asked Mr. Burden to comment on the water quality standard issue. MR. BURDEN said the water quality standards were signed into law approximately one hour before Governor Knowles was sworn into office. Shortly thereafter, it became clear there was going to be a lawsuit to try and stop the implementation of those regulations on several grounds. One of the grounds was there had been substantial modifications in the regulations from the time they were last public noticed to the time they were signed. He stated the regulations which went into effect January 5, 1995, are the regulations which the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) uses in making decisions regarding permanent applicants in the national pollutant discharge elimination system (NPDES) permit status. MR. BURDEN said some of the consideration involved concern about having further delays in a number of major NPDES permits that were working their way through the EPA review process. As an alternative, a suggestion was made that there is a vehicle for an individual or a group to use to seek a redress of a piece of or all of the regulations. He stated when he began his position on January 16, on his desk was a request to repeal those regulations and declare an emergency. He elected to deny that request. MR. BURDEN added there was also a request to reopen all the regulations for reconsideration. He studied that request and talked to people in Region X, EPA and consulted with staff. He said one area he determined the regulations were deficient was the absence of the antidegradation provision which is going to be a requirement in the regulations. He stated there were four topics raised by the Sierra Club Legal Defense Fund and after review, he recommended that regulations be reopened to hear comments on those topics. He stated that process is underway and comments will be received until April 19, 1995. Following the comment period, there will be an opportunity to make a decision one way or the other on whether the department wants to recommend new regulations or change regulations. MR. BURDEN said in the course of this review and assuming that the antidegradation provision ends up in the final regulations, he has been advised by the Attorney General's Office it will take at least a year before those regulations or any change in regulations could become law. He stated in the interim, the regulations signed December 5 are in effect and will remain in effect if and until there is a change in regulations generated by DEC. He noted permit applications currently being reviewed by EPA are being reviewed under existing water quality regulations. Number 560 CO-CHAIRMAN WILLIAMS asked how the situation will affect the Ketchikan Pulp Company (KPC) water quality permit. MR. BURDEN said he cannot respond directly because he does not have any predisposition as to whether there will be modifications to the regulations having a further effect on KPC. He added that he had met with representatives of that entity. He felt the antidegradation provision, which he expects to be in the new regulations, will not have an impact on KPC. REPRESENTATIVE BARNES recalled that Mr. Burden had stated the regulations went into effect a few hours before Governor Knowles becoming the Governor. She wondered if he was implying that was somehow improper. MR. BURDEN replied no. REPRESENTATIVE BARNES clarified there had been a year or more of work on the current water quality standard regulations which were signed by the previous Administration. MR. BURDEN stated two and one-half or three years of work had been done. REPRESENTATIVE BARNES felt with the extensive hearings held, anyone who wanted a chance to comment certainly had the opportunity. MR. BURDEN agreed there was a great deal of comment submitted on these regulations. REPRESENTATIVE BARNES asked if the department is now fearful because of a lawsuit by the Sierra Club Legal Defense Fund. MR. BURDEN replied that is a good question. He said in regard to the four or five areas in the regulations being reviewed, the department plans to give the most straightforward review as possible. He suspects there will be decisions made which do not satisfy the requests made by the Sierra Club Legal Defense Fund and they may want to take further action. REPRESENTATIVE BARNES stated she does not care if the Sierra Club Legal Defense Fund sues when the state has followed all of the due process in establishing regulations. Number 596 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN observed there has been a significant amount of money expended for permits by various corporate structures for re- establishing mining. He noted their problems come from the EPA but also noted that EPA and DEC dovetail a lot. He wondered if there is anything which can be done to help these companies get through this permit process. MR. BURDEN stated he has met with Echo Bay representatives and a number of community representatives. He pointed out that Echo Bay has spent $80 million in development thus far and another $80 million has been spent on Kensington. He noted there are environmental problems associated with both of those projects which have not been sorted out yet. He said he is encouraged by an indication from the Echo Bay representatives and the community of a willingness to get together and try to sort out some of the issues separating the group. He felt there should be a common ground to address community concerns. He stated one of those concerns is very significant and that is the effect on Juneau's water supply. He believed there are some alternatives available and Echo Bay is willing to look at some flexible approaches to deal with that issue and others. Number 625 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN expressed concern that the Alaska government and the agencies who regulate businesses are sending out an ominous message to the business community in this country and abroad that it is not a good idea to do business in Alaska and gave several examples. He noted the state has had a serious decline in oil revenues and there is a need to send out a message to the business community that Alaska is a better, friendlier, and easier place to do business with. MR. BURDEN stated the objective of the Administration is to help improve Alaska's ability to conduct business and have people come to the state and invest. He said many of the components of that perspective, whether it is a state like Alaska or some foreign country that happens to appear temporarily attractive to investment dollars, involve the stability and consistency on the regulatory side of the business. He stressed that is something the department has to be very sensitive to. He noted that many of these issues are controversial and subject to diametrically opposed views of the parties. MR. BURDEN said he will try to bring to the department a consistency and an effort to take into account the concerns from not only the development side but of the public side as well, relative to environmental health issues associated with these projects. The department can help promote development by looking at some of the success stories which have occurred in the state in recent years and gave an example. He stated it is important to study the success stories and determine what they did right so the department can impart that to not only the businesses but also to the department to speed these processes up. Number 664 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN stated when the Chernobyl problem came up, there was department personnel who went to that area and areas in Europe and suggested a plethora of radiological monitoring devices. He wondered if the department can perhaps maximize the use of some of the federal monies available. He said at one time it seemed like the department was more interested in finding additional turf rather than taking care of the turf they had. TAPE 95-15, SIDE B Number 000 MR. BURDEN stated the department has identified specific objectives and he believes, as Vince Lombardi once said, "we take care of the basics better than anyone else and everything else falls into place". He said radiological monitoring is a serious matter and something worthy of consideration. He was not sure that DEC will be involved in monitoring in foreign countries, however, because it is a state department or federal issue. If in fact the need arises, the department would be talking to people in Washington and agencies at the federal level to try and have that activity take place. REPRESENTATIVE IRENE NICHOLIA noted for the record that she supports Mr. Burden as commissioner of DEC. She hoped that Mr. Burden, once he is confirmed, establishes better relationships with the small businesses in rural Alaska because they have concerns about their relationship with DEC. REPRESENTATIVE NICHOLIA made a MOTION to FORWARD the name of Gene Burden to the joint committee for confirmation. CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN asked if there were any objections. Hearing none, the MOTION PASSED. REPRESENTATIVE OGAN made a MOTION to FORWARD the name of Bob Hinman to the joint committee for confirmation. REPRESENTATIVE NICHOLIA asked if there was a letter of transmittal for Robert Hinman from former Governor Hickel because his name is not included in a letter dated February 13, 1995, from Governor Knowles indicating his appointments. CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN stated he has not seen a letter of transmittal. REPRESENTATIVE NICHOLIA felt the appointment is not legal if there is not a letter of transmittal. CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN stated it is not up to the committee to determine whether or not it is legal, but appreciated Representative Nicholia's comments. He said the committee's responsibility is to determine, from the standpoint of resources, if he is the one the committee agrees to pass on. He stressed the legality of it would have to be addressed on the floor. REPRESENTATIVE NICHOLIA OBJECTED to the motion. CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN asked for a roll call vote. Voting in favor of the motion were Representatives Ogan, Austerman, Williams and Green. Voting against the motion was Representative Nicholia. The MOTION PASSED 4-1. Number 106 JOHN SHIVELY CONFIRMATION JOHN SHIVELY, COMMISSIONER-DESIGNEE, DEPARTMENT OF NATURAL RESOURCES (DNR), stated he came to Alaska in 1965 as a VISTA volunteer and noted a large part of his work in the state has been with the Native community. He said he also worked as Chief of Staff for Governor Sheffield, was Chairman and Chief Executive Officer for United Bank of Alaska for a short period of time, and has been a consultant for some time. He commented in regard to the background he brings to the DNR--because of his involvement with the Native community, he has had long standing involvement in legal, regulatory, and legislative issues relating to land. He mentioned when he worked for NANA Development Corporation, he was the lead negotiator in putting together the Red Dog deal with COMINCO. He added that he did quite a lot of work for the oil industry, including the fact that NANA has a share of the Endicott oil field and he was involved in the early unitization discussions about that oil field. Number 143 REPRESENTATIVE BARNES stated she has known John Shively ever since he came to Alaska and has known him in all the positions he has occupied. She said they have been on opposite sides of the table many times but has never enjoyed working with anyone more than she has with him. She stressed Mr. Shively has her wholehearted support. She added this is the first time she has ever expressed support for any person running for commissioner in any Administration. REPRESENTATIVE NICHOLIA added that she also supports Mr. Shively's appointment. REPRESENTATIVE OGAN said the Chickaloon River in his district has been blocked by some private land owners who own land on adjacent sides with the idea they have rights extending into the navigable waterway. He wondered what Mr. Shively is going to do to assure that public access to all navigable waters remains open to everyone. MR. SHIVELY asked if the situation being referred to is a private individual land grant from either the state or federal government. REPRESENTATIVE OGAN replied it is an individual land grant from the federal government. MR. SHIVELY clarified the owners are claiming people cannot walk up the sides. REPRESENTATIVE OGAN said the owners have strung a cable across the river and want to charge people money to float the river. MR. SHIVELY stated he does not have a legal answer but from what he does know, it seems to be an absolute violation of state law. The water column is clearly not owned by those individuals. He said if the situation has not been turned over to the Attorney General's Office, he would be happy to do it. Number 208 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN clarified that Mr. Shively is aware of the dust stirred up in the 18th legislature about SB 308 which was a fix to the lease sale 78 in the Cook Inlet. He said Governor Knowles has indicated one of his early agenda items is the repeal of SB 308. He asked Mr. Shively to comment. MR. SHIVELY responded it was his understanding that the Governor did campaign on that issue but whether or not it is one of his early priorities, he did not know. He also understood that the President of the Senate made a strong statement about that legislation. He said at this point, he has no plans and he has not been asked to do anything in regard to that legislation. REPRESENTATIVE BARNES clarified that Mr. Shively is familiar with the law and the charges to him under the law. MR. SHIVELY replied yes. REPRESENTATIVE BARNES stated as long as SB 308 is on the books, Mr. Shively is bound to uphold that law. MR. SHIVELY said that is correct. He added that in his previous life, he supported that bill. Number 246 CO-CHAIRMAN WILLIAMS stated there were a number of regulations introduced last year for changes in Title 38. He wondered if Mr. Shively had looked at those regulations. He also asked if the Administration will support those changes and have them introduced again. MR. SHIVELY replied those regulations had passed his review for re- introduction. He said the committee will be seeing some Title 38 revisions. CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN stated Mr. Shively has been an outspoken advocate of Native rights and now he is the chief administrator of the state's land. He wondered how Mr. Shively plans to resolve possible differences. MR. SHIVELY responded he has different responsibilities now. He recalled back in 1983 when he was appointed Chief of Staff, a senator commented that he would have to broaden his horizons. He felt he did broaden his horizons and is comfortable he can do that now. He stated he recognizes the things he advocated for, both as a representative of a Native organization and as a representative of a business, might not be the same from the inside. He added that he knows he has different responsibilities and those responsibilities are bound by the laws of the state. He felt he can uphold those responsibilities and stressed it is his intent to do so. CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN said it has been mentioned in the paper that the petroleum industry is indicating a strong desire to get into a cooperative basis as part of an incentives package that the state of Alaska, in competition with major dollars around the world, could come up with. He asked Mr. Shively to comment on incentives which might help spur the state's economy. MR. SHIVELY stated incentives are a tricky issue because the department has two responsibilities. The first responsibility is to get the resources development but the second responsibility is to get a fair return for the citizens of the state. He said deciding that mix is a challenge everyone faces. He felt there are times when incentives will be important, particularly for getting certain developments off the ground. He indicated the department has had meetings with the industry already. MR. SHIVELY said he is not sure there will be an answer to the incentives question during this session. He felt there may be a partial answer. He thought the issue deserves a great deal of study both by the legislature and the Administration. He stated incentives need to be done because the state needs to be competitive in the world market. He noted the state has lived off of Prudhoe Bay for a long time and there are a variety of other opportunities in the state. He mentioned that the Red Dog project got an incentive in a way. The state made a major investment building a road to port. He expressed support for incentives. Mr. Shively stressed these developments need to pay for themselves and need to show a return for the state. REPRESENTATIVE BARNES noted in regard to the Red Dog project and the road, that money was paid back to the state with interest. MR. SHIVELY said that was correct. The incentive gave the Red Dog project a head start and yet the state got its capital back and more. He felt those are the kinds of incentives which should be looked at. CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN noted that not all selections for both the state and Natives, through the Native corporation land selection, have been resolved. He asked how Mr. Shively anticipates his role in trying to negotiate between a selection and an overselection. MR. SHIVELY said if there are areas the state is particularly interested in, the state needs to go to the Native corporation and determine if the overselections can be lifted. He noted the danger for the state has always been that if the Native corporation knows the state is interested, they may be interested themselves. He stated it is going to take some time and felt it is in the best interest of everyone to take time on those overselections. The state wants to maximize the benefit for everyone. If Native corporations get resources and develop those resources, that is a benefit to the state and a benefit generally to some of the poorer citizens of the state. He stressed it is not a competitive situation but one where if it is looked at together, there is an opportunity to maximize the amount of land in the state having economic potential that the federal government no longer owns. Number 348 CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN stated the south Barrow gas field has provided energy to the community of Barrow for some time. He noted there are many villages that could possibly get into the same situation and possibly get away from leaking fuel oil tanks. He asked Mr. Shively to comment on the possibility of the state and someone with expertise, such as the petroleum industry, trying to develop alternate energy in the remote areas of the state. MR. SHIVELY responded there is a lot of opportunity there and added there is also opportunity with the federal Department of Energy who is also very interested in shallow gas. He stated there is gas being generated off of coal which is buried and those gas resources certainly could be used to lower energy costs. He recalled an earlier discussion regarding the problems of villages meeting environmental regulations. He felt there is not enough money in the state to fix the problems of having rural communities meet the current federal and state laws as they relate to oil storage. Therefore, the state is going to have to look for other alternatives. REPRESENTATIVE AUSTERMAN made a MOTION to FORWARD the name of John Shively to the joint committee for confirmation. CO-CHAIRMAN GREEN asked if there were any objections. Hearing none, the MOTION PASSED. ADJOURNMENT There being no further business to come before the House Resources Committee, Co-Chairman Green adjourned the meeting at 4:15 p.m.