HOUSE LABOR AND COMMERCE STANDING COMMITTEE February 5, 1997 3:21 p.m. MEMBERS PRESENT Representative Norman Rokeberg, Chairman Representative John Cowdery Representative Bill Hudson Representative Jerry Sanders Representative Joe Ryan Representative Tom Brice Representative Gene Kubina MEMBERS ABSENT All members present COMMITTEE CALENDAR HOUSE BILL NO. 68 "An Act relating to the exemption from the requirement for payment for overtime under a voluntary work hour plan; and providing for an effective date." - MOVED CSHB 68(L&C) OUT OF COMMITTEE HOUSE BILL NO. 31 "An Act relating to civil liability for certain false allegations or material misstatements of fact in a civil pleading or proceeding, for certain improper acts relating to signing a civil pleading, for certain improper acts relating to civil pleadings or proceedings, for making an intentional false statement of a material fact, for acting on a civil claim or defense without probable cause, or for acting for a purpose other than proper adjudication of a civil claim; amending Rules 13(e) and 82(b), Alaska Rules of Civil Procedure; and providing for an effective date." - REMOVED FROM AGENDA (* First public hearing) PREVIOUS ACTION BILL: HB 68 SHORT TITLE: VOLUNTARY FLEXIBLE WORK PLAN: OVERTIME SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) THERRIAULT, Kelly, Vezey JRN-DATE JRN-PG ACTION 01/15/97 67 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S) 01/15/97 67 (H) LABOR & COMMERCE 01/27/97 (H) L&C AT 3:00 PM CAPITOL 17 01/27/97 (H) MINUTE(L&C) 01/29/97 (H) L&C AT 3:00 PM CAPITOL 17 01/29/97 (H) MINUTE(L&C) 01/29/97 175 (H) COSPONSOR REMOVED: JAMES 02/03/97 (H) L&C AT 3:15 PM CAPITOL 17 02/03/97 (H) MINUTE(L&C) 02/05/97 (H) L&C AT 3:15 PM CAPITOL 17 WITNESS REGISTER MILT BEHR, District Representative International Union of Operating Engineers Local 302 P.O. Box 71938 Fairbanks, Alaska 99707 Telephone: (907) 452-8131 POSITION STATEMENT: Testified against HB 68. DAN SIMIEN Laborers Union Local 942 315 Barnette Fairbanks, Alaska 99701 Telephone: (907) 456-4584 POSITION STATEMENT: Testified against HB 68. TIM SHARP Laborers Union Local 942 1284 Lois Lane Fairbanks, Alaska 99712 Telephone: (907) 456-4584 POSITION STATEMENT: Testified against HB 68. PETE BLAIR International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers P.O. Box 72204 Fairbanks, Alaska 99707 Telephone: (907) 456-1547 POSITION STATEMENT: Testified against HB 68. REPRESENTATIVE GENE THERRIAULT Alaska State Legislature Capitol Building, Room 517 Juneau, Alaska 99701 Telephone: (907) 465-4797 POSITION STATEMENT: Sponsor of HB 68. DWIGHT PERKINS, Special Assistant Office of the Commissioner Department of Labor P.O. Box 21149 Juneau, Alaska 99802-1149 Telephone: (907) 465-2700 POSITION STATEMENT: Answered questions on HB 68. ACTION NARRATIVE TAPE 97-8, SIDE A Number 001 CHAIRMAN NORMAN ROKEBERG called the House Labor and Commerce Standing Committee to order at 3:21 p.m. All members were present at the call to order. HB 68 - VOLUNTARY FLEXIBLE WORK PLAN: OVERTIME Number 050 CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG announced the committee would continue the hearing on HB 68, "An Act relating to the exemption from the requirement for payment for overtime under a voluntary work hour plan; and providing for an effective date." REPRESENTATIVE TOM BRICE indicated there are some people who wish to testify via teleconference. Number 139 MILT BEHR, District Representative, International Union of Operating Engineers Local 302, testified via teleconference from Fairbanks. He said his organization would like to make it clear that they support the mining industry in the state, hope that their ventures return large profits for their investors and provide good paying and safe jobs for workers. He said they do not think HB 68 is a very good bill as there are several issues that need to be addressed. The employees of the mine who want a 12-hour rotation so they can have more time off in a month. An employer who says, "Okay, in trade for this we want you to give up your overtime compensation or we will keep you on this current schedule which is the worst we could possibly arrange for." MR. BEHR said there are 250 people who have signed a petition to give away their overtime if the legislature sees fit to change state statute. Not being heard from are hundreds of other Alaskan mine workers who don't even know HB 68 exists. He said his organization feels there are many solutions. In speaking with workers from the mine, they feel that there is only one solution because they are not aware of the other options to resolve this issue. The employees have been presented with one solution by the company and that is to change the state's overtime statutes. Mr. Behr urged the committee members not to pass HB 68 as there are many ways to achieve the goals of both workers and the mine company without changing state statute. He stated HB 68 will negatively affect a great number of workers throughout the state. Number 330 DAN SIMIEN, Laborers Union Local 942, was next to address the committee via teleconference from Fairbanks. He referred to the issue of a 12-hour day for straight time pay as a "thin edge of the wedge." The argument of what is considered a work day is intensifying across the nation. It has become an issue of politics and of what party you belong to. He noted there was a recent article in the Fairbanks Daily New Miner which outlined a movement to change workers' hours across the nation. It is basically being driven by the business executives and the Republican Party. He urged the committee not to use party politics to ignore the working man's rights. Alaska was recently listed as number one in the nation as far as the ability to earn a decent wage and live. He said he believes we need fight to maintain that. MR. SIMIEN explained an example that this is not something new as his organization has some people working for Aleyska at Pump Station 8 who have a 75-mile daily commute to go to work. They work within the confines of the law and no effort has been made to change the law to make it any easier for them. They are aware of their situation and they move forward with no loss of pay. Of course they had time taken away from their family life, but that is part of the game. He urged the committee not to make this an issue of politics and to look at what is good for the workers across the state. He urged the committee to put an end to HB 68. He requested that Amax and their employees to get together and try to find a viable alternative. Number 540 REPRESENTATIVE JOHN COWDERY asked Mr. Simien if he is against any 12-hour work days, including any that might be negotiated by organized labor. MR. SIMIEN explained in their negotiations, representing the laborers, they don't have any 12-hour days that allow their employees to be paid straight time. He noted they have nothing against 12-hour days, but their contracts require premium pay for anything over 8 hours. Number 642 TIM SHARP, Laborers Union Local 942, testified via teleconference from Fairbanks. He referred to the 1920s when miners were striking for an 8-hour day and said the more things change, the more they remain the same. Mr. Sharp referred to the question Representative Cowdery asked Mr. Simien regarding the 12-hour day and said he would say, "Get rid of them for everybody if that's choice we're offered here instead of going with this bad House bill." Mr. Sharp said he is already on record supporting more time off for the Fort Knox employees, better conditions and a real retirement program for them, but not at the expense of all other Alaskan workers. He said he can't understand how anyone can be so naive as to believe that this bill will not have far reaching affects to other industries as time goes on. As most state legislators should be aware, a large percentage of Alaskan workers, union and nonunion, make the majority of their yearly income during the summer months working long hours. This is because of the unique and harsh winter conditions we have here. How will they be effected next year or the year after due to the next round of excuses, such as global competition, industry appeals for relief or new worker driven petitions where they're asked to give back even more of their earning power. Mr. Sharp referred to the comparison made between nurses and cab drivers. He said, "Most of you are very much aware nurses were considered professional and, therefore, exempt under a lot of the wage and hour standards." People should ask themselves why so many union and nonunion workers, who do not traditionally represent mine workers and have nothing to gain or lose directly by this bill's passage, could be so adamantly opposed to it. He said it is not because Fort Know is a nonunion operation. It is because they see the same thing he does which is how this bad legislation will be used as the thin edge of the wedge to further (indisc.) workers hard earned gains. Mr. Sharp said let industry come when the standardized price of doing business can be paid to our workers based on the price of gold per ounce. Let the gold stay in the ground or pay the employees what they deserve in time and a half for hours worked over eight or ten, with the exemption that Fort Knox has not even applied for. Number 854 REPRESENTATIVE COWDERY indicated he has received a list of all the companies that come under the exempt rating. He said he believes there are 83 pages of different entities/companies. Representative Cowdery gave committee members a copy of the information. Number 935 PETE BLAIR, International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers, testified via teleconference from Fairbanks. He said it would be very difficult to embellish on any of the words that have been spoken in the hearings on HB 68. He said it is important that it is understood that a fight for the 8-hour day is a demand to receive compensation for those hours worked over the 8 hours. He stated he does not support HB 68. Number 955 REPRESENTATIVE GENE THERRIAULT, sponsor of HB 68, said he appreciates the time the committee has taken to review the bill and he also appreciated working with the Chair on the draft that is before the committee. He stated in coming up with the language for the draft, they have tried to address many of the concerns that have been expressed as far as the bill having far reaching impacts on other sections of our society that he had not intended. He indicated the impact would now be restricted to those people employed by surface metal mining operations operating year-round. Representative Therriault said he thinks the scope of the bill is fairly narrow. It wasn't his intent to impact seasonal construction workers on the road projects and people of that nature. He said he gave committee members the most recent information he has received with regards to how other states treat the provisions for overtime pay. He referred to there being a number of people who have testified about Hay Market riots and hard fought concessions won by organized labor and said he thinks what they're referring to is the federal statute that mandates that overtime be paid after 40 hours, not after 8 hours per day, but after 40 hours. If you take the 40 hours and divide it into the standard five day workweek, it comes out to 8 hours a day, but the law of the land, with regards to the provision of overtime, is that you're paid overtime after 40 hours worked in a consecutive week. That is exactly what is being asked for in the bill. If the miners worked the 12-hour shifts and more than 40 hours in any given week, they would be paid overtime. Representative Therriault said there are only three states in the nation that deviates from this federal standard, Alaska, California and Nevada. He explained Colorado actually pays overtime after 12 hours. California is currently discussing adopting the federal standard. When people talk about the labor riots in the 1800s, the concessions that were won was the 40-hour workweek and that the overtime would be paid after 40 hours and not after 8 hours in a given day. REPRESENTATIVE THERRIAULT referred to the information Representative Cowdery gave committee members and said it makes reference to the contract under which the current Department of Correction employees work. He said the municipal workers who work at the Fairbanks power plant, running the power generation, are organized by Local 302 and work 12-hour days. They aren't paid for overtime until they go past 40 hours in a given workweek. He said he believes they are working the same shift that the miners at Fort Knox want, nothing more or nothing less. Representative Therriault indicated there are provisions that it must be voluntary so there shouldn't be an impact to other miners of surface metal mining operations because this provision wouldn't be able to kick in unless they entered into a voluntary agreement with their employer. If the commissioner suspects any coercion or that signing a petition was a condition of employment, he could turn down the application. REPRESENTATIVE THERRIAULT said there was a reference made to the bill that went through the system last year which dealt with the number of hours that could be worked at the face of a hard rock mine. It had nothing to do with the provisions to pay overtime. He referred to the Fairbanks Daily News Miner article which spoke about a debate that is taking place at the national level and said in looking over the article, there was an indication from the President that he is willing to discuss some possible changes. He said that is a realization where perhaps there will be a bipartisan move that will give workers flexibility. Number 1297 REPRESENTATIVE COWDERY explained he had received a facsimile which included information he had requested from the Department of Corrections relating to their work schedule. He explained the information says that of the 1,014 institutional staff, approximately 80 percent or 818 work 84-hour workweeks. That is 7 / 12s, week on, week off schedule. He noted it doesn't include any of the supervisors that work there. Representative Cowdery gave committee members a copy of the facsimile for their files. CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG questioned whether the employees are paid for overtime. REPRESENTATIVE COWDERY said he had asked that question and didn't receive an answer. He indicated he would inquire further. REPRESENTATIVE THERRIAULT noted he wanted to make the point that passage of the legislation in no way impacts any group of workers from unionizing at any time that they feel like their pay or benefit package is not adequate or if they feel their employer isn't addressing grievances in a timely fashion. He noted that currently, the workers don't feel a compulsion to unionize because the relationship they have with their employer is very good. They feel frustrated that the only way they would be able to get flexibility to structure the workweek in the way they desire is to unionize. Number 1426 REPRESENTATIVE BRICE noted that on the facsimile cover sheet there might be a problem. He said according to the Department of Corrections, the information is confidential and should not be disseminated or given out to anyone other then the person listed on the facsimile sheet. Representative Brice asked if there was a problem. REPRESENTATIVE COWDERY said the information was requested by his office and he thinks the cover sheet is standard for their transmissions. REPRESENTATIVE BRICE said if it's boiler plate, just ignore it. REPRESENTATIVE COWDERY indicated he didn't say that. He said he thinks the language on the cover sheet is fairly standard language. Representative Cowdery indicated he would phone the department for clarification. Number 1491 CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG noted Representative Cowdery distributed a list to the committee members of a large number of companies. He asked Representative Cowdery to provide a cover letter for that information. REPRESENTATIVE COWDERY noted the information is a flex plan list that was provided by the Department of Labor. CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG said the information is a list of existing flex plans that have been approved by the commissioner. Number 1561 REPRESENTATIVE BILL HUDSON asked Representative Therriault if he knows how the overtime is applied to last year's 10-hour situation. He asked if the 40-hour overtime provision apply. REPRESENTATIVE THERRIAULT indicated he couldn't answer that question. Number 1584 REPRESENTATIVE JOE RYAN indicated he had drafted the legislation as a staff person for Representative Vezey. He stated, "It allowed 10 hours at the work face which portal to portal provided actually 12 hours - time to get to the work face, work 10 hours, time to get back up to the (indisc.). Anything over 8 hours a day was overtime, time and a half." Number 1631 REPRESENTATIVE JERRY SANDERS asked if he is misunderstanding Representative Therriault or did he hear him say that the workers are unhappy with not being able to work the 12-hour shifts and that they're thinking about joining the union as that is the only option they have other than the legislature changing the law in the state for everybody. REPRESENTATIVE THERRIAULT explained the current law exempts anyone who is operating under a collective bargaining agreement from this section of the statutes. There is no requirement that overtime be paid after 8 hours if you are operating under a collective bargaining agreement. He said if you want flexibility to work with an employer, you have to unionize. Passage of the legislation wouldn't preclude the workers at Fort Knox from unionizing, however, the current relationship between the employee and employer is very good. They see no need to unionize as they feel they can negotiate directly with their employer and don't need the services of a middle man at this point. REPRESENTATIVE SANDERS said if the legislation isn't passed, the workers can still organize and achieve this goal without the help of the state and without affecting the other laborers in the state. REPRESENTATIVE THERRIAULT explained if the bill isn't passed and the workers wanted to exercise flexibility, they would have to unionize. Number 1725 REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON said the workers have the right to organize, bargain collectively and then it gets to be a matter of the bargaining process. It doesn't necessarily mean that you succeed in getting what you want. CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG asked if the workers could work a 10-hour flex work plan under the existing statute. REPRESENTATIVE THERRIAULT indicated the lab workers at Fort Knox have submitted and have approved a 10-hour flex plan. He said the testimony from Mr. Flanagan, Department of Labor, is that you couldn't get a 10-hour exemption and then work the additional 2 hours and get paid overtime. The language is such that the Department of Law says that if you get a waiver to work 10 hours, that's all you can work. CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG asked Mr. Perkins if there was an approved flexible work plan in existing statute, it could only go to 10 hours, therefore, you couldn't work 12 hours and be paid for 2 hours of overtime under the existing statute. Number 1800 DWIGHT PERKINS, Special Assistant, Office of the Commissioner Department of Labor, said that is his understanding. Number 1814 REPRESENTATIVE COWDERY asked if the legislation would apply to the one mine or all of the mines. REPRESENTATIVE THERRIAULT said there was a headline last week that it would impact two mines. The surface metal mining operation that this may apply to is Cominco. He noted in discussions with representatives from Cominco the previous week, they indicated they see absolutely no impact on their workforce from the legislation. He said with their operation, people travel to the mine and live at the mine for an extensive period of time. They're currently paying the overtime and they do not feel like their employees would be agreeable to enter into this voluntary agreement. They felt like if the company, in any form, tried to coerce them to enter into a voluntary agreement, the workers would likely unionize. Representative Therriault said the language in the committee substitute makes it very clear that it doesn't impact those people who are covered by collective bargaining. It doesn't impact those people who are currently under a voluntary 10-hour work plan. It only applies to employees at surface metal mining operation that operates year-round. He said seasonal placer mining operations, coal mines, gravel pits and accompanying construction will not be impacted. Number 1903 REPRESENTATIVE BRICE said he thinks that unfortunately it will establish a standard for upcoming mines and developments to establish a 12-hour work day without overtime. Unfortunately, we can't narrow this down specifically to Fort Knox as it would become a specialty issue, very localized legislation and, therefore, unconstitutional. He said he doesn't think that the workers at Fort Knox haven't been given all the options available to them. His understanding is that there hasn't been negotiations between the workers and the managers of the mine to develop alternative schedules. Representative Brice said it hasn't been brought up in testimony that there was an organized effort to have any type of in-depth negotiations. He said he believes this would impact the workers of today and will impact the workers of the future in this state. He asked, "How are we going to protect against the use of `you sign the petition or you don't go to work'." That still hasn't been adequately addressed. Representative Brice noted the Department of Labor is vastly underfunded. He said he has concerns that the legislature is being asked to do something with very little overview and not adequate time and discussion on some of the more futuristic impacts that the bill will have. Number 2043 REPRESENTATIVE THERRIAULT explained the workers did go to management with a request to go to the 12-hour day. Unfortunately, management had to tell them that state law precluded them from doing that. He said it was his understanding in speaking with the workers that it was not a proposal from management to the workers, the workers went to management. With regards to the funding of the Department of Labor budget, all departments are feeling our current financial pinch. He said the way that the bill has been narrowed, there won't be too many more names added to the list that is being reviewed and produced on a yearly basis. REPRESENTATIVE BRICE said there is no state law precluding a 12- hour day, particularly as it applies mines. There are plenty of gold mining operations in Alaska that work on the same margins at Fort Knox and pay their employees overtime. If the employees still want to give up their overtime out of the goodness of their hearts, then there needs to be a recognized process. He stated there is no recognized process by which those employees have asked for that. Number 2120 REPRESENTATIVE RYAN referred to AS 23.10.410, paragraph (a), and said it delineates what the 10 hours at the mine face is. He read from the statute, "applies only to work actually performed at the mine face or other place where the work is actually carried on and excludes time for meals, travel to or from the mine site, and travel between the mine portal and the mine face, whether in going on or off shift, or in going to or returning from meals. However, an employer shall pay wages for the time worked from the time the miner enters the mine at the mine portal, whether or not work is preformed at the mine face or other place where the work is actually carried out, until the miner leaves the mine." Representative Ryan then read from AS 23.10.060, "Payment for overtime. (a) An employer who employs employees engaged in commerce or other business, or in the production of goods or materials in the state may not employ an employee for a workweek longer than 40 hours or for more than eight hours a day. This section does not apply to the employment of a person acting in a supervisory capacity. If an employer finds it necessary to employ an employee in excess for 40 hours a week or eight hours a day, compensation for the overtime at the rate of one and one-half times the regular rate of pay shall be paid." Number 2179 REPRESENTATIVE THERRIAULT said the bill that passed last year dealt with the hours of actual work, but did not impact the current statutes with regards to compensation for the hours worked. REPRESENTATIVE RYAN said, "No, because the current statutes covered that. They said if you work more than eight hours, you get -- (indisc.) 10 hours at the work face, but two hours of overtime." REPRESENTATIVE THERRIAULT said the issue discussed last year was the actual number of hours that could be worked. CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG stated that is correct. He said the overtime factor wasn't addressed as it wasn't on the table. REPRESENTATIVE RYAN said it wasn't taken out. CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG said it was consistent with existing statute. Number 2212 CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG closed the public hearing on HB 68. Number 2220 REPRESENTATIVE GENE KUBINA asked if there was a committee substitute. CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG indicated there is a committee substitute, Version F. Chairman Rokeberg indicated the Department of Labor has submitted a zero fiscal note. He also noted the committee substitute has been adopted. Number 2247 REPRESENTATIVE COWDERY indicated that the information contained in the facsimile is public information and isn't confidential. REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG said he would verify that most businesses use a disclaimer on all their facsimile transmittal sheets because there is a face law that has come down on it. Number 2286 REPRESENTATIVE KUBINA said he would state his opposition to the passage of the bill. He said he isn't supportive of the concept of the bill and he doesn't believe that all the options have been reviewed. Representative Kubina said he thinks there are ways employees can work with their employer so they could work out a pay and salary schedule so our laws don't have to be changed. He said he also believes that it is possible for the employees to organize as a group, not tied with any recognized collective bargaining unit. If the workers all signed an agreement saying they want to bargain collectively with their employer without being part of the Laborers or Teamsters, etc., there isn't nothing prohibiting them from that. If people are saying they can't do this without collective bargaining, he doesn't believe there is anything saying they have to join the Laborers, Teamsters or United Mine Workers. Number 2344 CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG asked Mr. Perkins if the workers at the mine could organize themselves as an independent union, would that be legal under federal and state statute. MR. PERKINS said he didn't have that knowledge with him. REPRESENTATIVE KUBINA said he hasn't ever seen anything that says they have be part of the Laborers. There are independent unions within the state. He noted he once negotiated a teaching contract and he wasn't part of NEA-Alaska at the time. Representative Kubina said even if they didn't do that, he believes the employees could sit down with their employer and work out a wage and salary schedule that would not cost the employer money and would not cost the employees money. He said he believes there are other options rather than changing the law for a small group of people. Representative Kubina said since the hearings on the bill have started, he has heard that there are people who signed the petitions that no longer support the petition. He said he is totally appalled at the schedule the employees are currently working under. He said, "How anybody can work and go from a night shift with two days off and then to a day shift or visa versa, your body cannot adjust that fast. Half the people in Valdez work on these shifts 12 on, 12 off and they go from day to night, day to night, the Alyeska ones. And it's really hard on your body to keep changing from one to the next." Number 2471 CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG referred to the comment by Representative Brice that there has been little overview and not adequate discussion on the bill and said the committee has had over seven hours of hearings and two weeks of time for people to provide input. TAPE 97-8, SIDE B Number 001 CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG said he hopes Representative Brice wasn't implying the committee wasn't doing its job. REPRESENTATIVE BRICE said the committee has done a very good job in reviewing the bill. He said he would question the fact that there is only one committee of referral. Number 019 REPRESENTATIVE COWDERY referred to Representative Kubina's comment regarding the 12-hour shifts and said he doesn't think it is the same thing as the Fort Knox operation which has to go in 24-hour periods. There are chemicals that are involved in the processing of the gold, etc., and you can't stop. There is different training for different employees. He said he believes this is a unique situation. REPRESENTATIVE KUBINA said he was referring to the Aleyska terminal which is very similar. They can't stop either. They're not going to stop the flow. Number 063 REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON pointed out that the Alaska Marine Highway System has operated 12 hours on and 12 hour off, week on and week off, for at least the last 20 years. He said there are other compensations. There is no overtime until it goes over 84 hours a week. He said, "I think what we got to be careful of here is that we don't establish a state with some sort of exclusive opportunities to meet our operational requirements, but preclude some small operator from having some exclusives." Representative Hudson indicated concern with where does the overtime apply. It sounds like the bill says it would apply over 40 hours. So once they've got three 12-hour shifts in, they would start getting overtime on their fourth shift. REPRESENTATIVE THERRIAULT said that is correct. REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON questioned what is being planned as far as the number of hours or days they work before they take time off. REPRESENTATIVE THERRIAULT noted there is information in the committee members' files. Under the proposed plan, they would actually see an increase in the number of overtime hours that they would be paid in any 4-week period of time. REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON asked if it would be over and above what they would have had if they'd received overtime over 8 hours. REPRESENTATIVE THERRIAULT said no. REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON said, "So the cost savings to the company in this negotiated agreement is in the total overtime over say a full 40-hour week basis, because if they'd gotten overtime they could work them -- if we give them the approval to go ahead and work 12, which they can't work right now as I understand. Is that right? They cannot work 12 hours now without -- period." REPRESENTATIVE THERRIAULT said they can, it is just whether it is affordable. He noted there was previous testimony that the economics of the project are predicated on an 8-hour workweek to try and keep the overtime down. Basically, without the change they're not going to go to 12-hour shifts. There is a slight increase in overall salary cost to the company by making the change. They feel they will be able to make it up in efficiencies. Number 168 REPRESENTATIVE RYAN said he noticed an interesting article in the Russian Far East News where Amax has a joint venture in Magadan. It's a 7-year project where they will have approximately 350,000 ounces of gold a year and 250,000 ounces of silver for a 7-year period. So considering they have no environmental problems, they have no unions, and they have slave labor wages. He said he thinks it's gonna balance out in their overall international operations. CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG said that is the parent company of the Fort Knox mine. REPRESENTATIVE SANDERS indicated he would agree with Representative Kubina's remarks. He said he thinks there is a better place to resolve the issue and he doesn't believe it needs to be brought to the legislature or done by statute. He said he feels this is just another grain of sand slipping away from what we have in Alaska. He said it is the only place he has ever been in his life where a laboring man can work 40 hours a week and make a living. He said he couldn't support the bill. Number 266 REPRESENTATIVE KUBINA read from the committee substitute, page 1, line 10, "the employee and the employer have signed a written agreement and the written agreement has been filed with the department;". He said if they want to hire someone, and if the person won't sign the agreement, they won't get hired. REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON said that was a specific question he asked of the general manager. The general manager said they will hire those people on an 8-hour day and they won't be under that provision. REPRESENTATIVE BRICE said the general manager did say that. He said if they are going to hire a shovel hand or a haul truck hand, you can't make an exemption for that specific person and keep everybody going that way. In those instances where you're doing a very specialized job such as working one of those shovels, it's not a question of being able to say, "No, I'm not going to sign this work (indisc.)." REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON said that is precisely what has been entered into the record. CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG said he thinks the committee has worked hard on the bill and he appreciates the interest. He said the bill is a very difficult bill to vote on as there are competing and conflicting ideas and philosophies. This is a very important bill that needs further consideration by the legislature. Number 368 REPRESENTATIVE RYAN said, "Yes, Mr. Chairman, I hadn't planned on voting to move this bill out of committee. I was given my marching orders this morning, I'm not happy about that. I've been coerced before, it's not the first time. I will have some more further to say about this at a later time. I'm going to reluctantly vote to move the bill out of committee, but I will not support it on the floor. And I don't think it's good public policy to go changing labor laws that have taken a lot of years to put in effect and a lot of people's hard work and sweat labor to get. And to just to change them like this, in this particular circumstances -- and I agree with Representative Sanders that it's just another chink in the armor." Number 407 REPRESENTATIVE COWDERY made a motion to move CSHB 69, Version F, to the next committee of referral with individual recommendations and the attached zero fiscal note. REPRESENTATIVE BRICE objected to moving the bill. Number 428 REPRESENTATIVE KUBINA noted there isn't another committee referral. CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG said the bill would move to the Rules Committee and then to House floor. A roll call vote was taken. Representatives Ryan, Hudson, Cowdery and Rokeberg voted in favor of moving the bill. Representatives Brice, Kubina, Sanders voted against moving the bill. Committee substitute for HB 68(L&C) moved out of the House Labor and Commerce Committee. ADJOURNMENT CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG adjourned the House Labor and Commerce Committee meeting at 4:20 p.m.