HOUSE JUDICIARY STANDING COMMITTEE April 8, 1998 1:13 p.m. MEMBERS PRESENT Representative Joe Green, Chairman Representative Con Bunde, Vice Chairman Representative Brian Porter Representative Norman Rokeberg Representative Jeannette James MEMBERS ABSENT Representative Eric Croft Representative Ethan Berkowitz COMMITTEE CALENDAR * HOUSE BILL NO. 473 "An Act relating to training and certification of fire fighters, fire instructors, and certain emergency responders; and providing for an effective date." - HEARD AND HELD * HOUSE JOINT RESOLUTION NO. 60 Proposing amendments to the Constitution of the State of Alaska relating to the community dividend fund, the permanent fund, and the budget reserve fund. - MOVED HJR 60 OUT OF COMMITTEE * HOUSE BILL NO. 474 "An Act relating to correctional officers." - MOVED HB 474 OUT OF COMMITTEE (* First public hearing) PREVIOUS ACTION BILL: HB 473 SHORT TITLE: FIRE TRAINING AND CERTIFICATION SPONSOR(S): STATE AFFAIRS Jrn-Date Jrn-Page Action 3/24/98 2722 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S) 3/24/98 2723 (H) JUDICIARY 4/08/98 (H) JUD AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 120 BILL: HJR 60 SHORT TITLE: COMMUNITY DIVIDEND FUND SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVES(S) DAVIS Jrn-Date Jrn-Page Action 2/16/98 2328 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S) 2/16/98 2328 (H) JUDICIARY, FINANCE 3/11/98 (H) JUD AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 120 3/11/98 (H) MINUTE(JUD) 4/08/98 (H) JUD AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 120 BILL: HB 474 SHORT TITLE: CERTIFY MUNICIPAL CORRECTIONAL OFFICERS SPONSOR(S): JUDICIARY Jrn-Date Jrn-Page Action 3/27/98 2770 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S) 3/27/98 2770 (H) JUDICIARY 4/08/98 (H) JUD AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 120 WITNESS REGISTER REPRESENTATIVE MARK HODGINS Alaska State Legislature Capitol Building, Room 110 Juneau, Alaska 99801 Telephone: (907) 465-3779 POSITION STATEMENT: Sponsor of HB 473. JOHN WILLIAMS, Mayor City of Kenai 210 Fidalgo Kenai, Alaska 99611 Telephone: (907) 283-7539 POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony on HB 473. Testified in support of HJR 60. DEL SMITH, Deputy Commissioner Department of Public Safety P.O. Box 111200 Juneau, Alaska 99811-1200 Telephone: (907) 465-4322 POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony on HB 473. CRAIG GOODRICH, Director State Fire Marshal Division of Fire Prevention Department of Public Safety 5700 East Tudor Road Anchorage, Alaska 99507-1225 Telephone: (907) 269-5491 POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony on HB 473. KEVIN KELLY, Member Rural Deltana Fire Department; Vice President, Rural Deltana Fire Protection District P.O. Box 40 Delta Junction, Alaska 99737 Telephone: (907) 869-3301 POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony on HB 473. AUDREY BROWN, Member Rural Deltana Fire Department P.O. Box 990 Delta Junction, Alaska 99737 Telephone: (907) 895-4537 POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony on HB 473. MICHAEL McGOWAN, President Alaska Fire Chiefs Association 1460 Old Richardson Highway Fairbanks, Alaska 99705 Telephone: (907) 474-7916 POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony on HB 473. DAVID TYLER P.O. Box 3023 Homer, Alaska 99603 Telephone: (907) 235-3155 POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony on HB 473. DAVID SQUIRES P.O. Box 176 Seward, Alaska 99664 Telephone: (907) 224-3445 POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony on HB 473. JASON ELSON 210 Fidalgo Kenai, Alaska 99611 Telephone: (907) 283-7666 POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of HB 473. SCOTT WALDEN 210 Fidalgo Kenai, Alaska 99611 Telephone: (907) 283-7666 POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of HB 473. DAVE BURNETT P.O. Box 3670 Kenai, Alaska 99611 Telephone: (907) 283-3054 POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony on HB 473. REPRESENTATIVE GARY DAVIS Alaska State Legislature Capitol Building, Room 513 Juneau, Alaska 99801 Telephone: (907) 465-2693 POSITION STATEMENT: Sponsor of HJR 60. DEB DAVIDSON, Legislative Administrative Assistant to Representative Gary Davis Alaska State Legislature Capitol Building, Room 513 Juneau, Alaska 99801 Telephone: (907) 465-2693 POSITION STATEMENT: Answered question on HJR 60. GEORGE CARNAHAN P.O. Box 8202 Kenai, Alaska 99611 Telephone: (907) 776-5570 POSITION STATEMENT: Testified against HJR 60. KEVIN RITCHIE, Executive Director Alaska Municipal League 217 Second Street Juneau, Alaska 99801 Telephone: (907) 586-1325 POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of HJR 60. LADDIE SHAW, Executive Director Alaska Police Standards Council P.O. Box 111200 Juneau, Alaska 99811-1200 Telephone: (907) 465-4378 POSITION STATEMENT: Answered question on HB 474. ACTION NARRATIVE TAPE 98-58, SIDE A Number 0001 CHAIRMAN JOE GREEN called the House Judiciary Standing Committee meeting to order at 1:13 p.m. Members present at the call to order were Representatives Green, Bunde, Porter and James. Representative Rokeberg arrived at 1:40 p.m. HB 473 - FIRE TRAINING AND CERTIFICATION Number 0037 CHAIRMAN GREEN announced the first item of business would be HB 473, "An Act relating to training and certification of fire fighters, fire instructors, and certain emergency responders; and providing for an effective date." CHAIRMAN GREEN called on Representative Mark Hodgins, sponsor of the bill. Number 0057 REPRESENTATIVE MARK HODGINS, Alaska State Legislature, explained the Alaska Fire Chiefs Association came forward and asked him for some legislation. It was after the cutoff for individuals to sponsor bills, therefore, he had the House State Affairs Standing Committee sponsor it. The association wants to set up a system similar to the Alaska Police Standards Council for firefighters. REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS further stated he has an amendment that would shorten the bill. The firefighters support the amendment. The bill would probably not go through if there is a fiscal note, therefore, the firefighters would like to see it put into statute and they will develop the revenue means to set the standards and operate the council through the local municipalities. Number 0176 CHAIRMAN GREEN asked Representative Hodgins whether he has discussed this with the Department of Public Safety that has submitted the fiscal note. REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS replied, "Yes." CHAIRMAN GREEN wondered whether the department is willing to withdraw its fiscal note. REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS replied, "We'll wait and see." CHAIRMAN GREEN noted for the record Representatives Bunde, James, Green and Porter are present for a quorum. REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS asked Chairman Green when he would like him to offer the amendment. CHAIRMAN GREEN replied it is his pleasure. He asked Representative Hodgins whether the amendment significantly changes what is before the committee. REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS replied, "No." Number 0260 REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS explained Amendment 1. It reads as follows: TO: CS FOR HOUSE BILL NO. 473, Draft version "E" Page 1, line 1 Delete "fighters and fire instructors" Insert "service professionals" Page 1, line 5 Delete "Fighters" Page 2, line 31 Insert "approve and/or" Page 3, line 3 Insert "approve and/or" Page 3, line 21 Delete "fighters and fire instructors" Page 3, line 23 - 31 Delete all Page 4, line 1 - 31 Delete all Page 5, line 1 - 15 Delete all REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS explained the amendment would change the title to read, "An Act relating to training and certification of fire service professionals and providing for an effective date." It would delete the wording "fighters" and "fire instructors" from the title. REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS explained on page 1, line 5, the word "Fighters" would be deleted. REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS explained on page 2, line 31, the wording "approve and/or" would be added. REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS explained on page 3, line 3, the wording "approve and/or" would be added. REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS explained on page 3, line 21, the wording "fighters and fire instructor" would be deleted. REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS explained on page 3, line 23 through page 5, line 15, all wording would be deleted thereby removing the definitions and directions. Basically, the Alaska Fire Chiefs Association wants to meet as a council and figure out what direction it wants to go and take. Number 0399 REPRESENTATIVE CON BUNDE made a motion to adopt Amendment 1. REPRESENTATIVE JEANNETTE JAMES objected for discussion purposes. Number 0409 REPRESENTATIVE JAMES referred to page 2, starting on line 31, and asked Representative Hodgins whether the language "fire fighter or fire instructor" should be left, or should it read "fire professionals." The amendment changes other references to the wording "fire fighter or fire instructor." It is also referred to in more places. Number 0430 REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS replied he would like to leave the wording there. Number 0466 REPRESENTATIVE BRIAN PORTER stated the language being deleted seems to be the essence of the bill. A person cannot be appointed a fire fighter or fire instructor unless certified. He asked Representative Hodgins whether he is suggesting that it be left to regulations. Number 0487 REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS replied he just received the amendment a half hour ago. He feels a little bit uncomfortable removing all of this, but the Alaska Fire Chiefs Association wants to. Number 0523 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER stated he is generally familiar with this area having served for ten years on the Alaska Police Standards Council. He thinks what is being deleted is the part of public policy that should be established by the legislature - the standards. Certainly, the recommendation should come from the professionals, but the establishment of the policy should come from the legislature. He does not have a problem receiving a recommendation from the Alaska Fire Chiefs Association, but it should be adopted by the legislature. Number 0618 REPRESENTATIVE JAMES asked Chairman Green whether it is possible to put the amendment away until testimony is given on the bill. CHAIRMAN GREEN replied that would be... REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS agreed to do it that way. Number 0653 JOHN WILLIAMS, Mayor, City of Kenai, testified via teleconference in Kenai. He noted that Dave Burnett is here, a 27-year member of the fire department and chief executive officer for the new fire training institute. He also noted that Jason Elson and Scott Walden are here from the fire department. He said he has been very pleased to have been part of the development of the bill over the last several months. CHAIRMAN GREEN asked Mr. Williams whether he can speak to the amendment. MR. WILLIAMS replied he just received the committee substitute. Number 0767 REPRESENTATIVE JAMES made a motion to adopt the proposed committee substitute for HB 473, Version E, 0-LS1650\E, Lauterbach, 3/25/98. There being no objection, it was so adopted. Number 0798 DEL SMITH, Deputy Commissioner, Department of Public Safety, explained Mayor Williams and the fire chief from Kenai talked to the commissioner and himself about establishing standards at which time the police standards model was suggested. It has made sense for the police and has improved the quality of officers. Having said that, Commissioner Otte's concern is the placement of the council within the Department of Public Safety. The department has within it the fire marshall who is the chief building inspector for the state. Otherwise, the department has little to do with fire service and actual fire fighting. If this is going to be created, he suggested including it in another department rather than automatically putting it inside the Department of Public Safety just because it falls within the broad view of public safety. His main objection to that is the fiscal note of $178,000, which includes an executive director, an office, and clerical support. Given the cap system since he has been a deputy commissioner, if there is an increase of a function within the department something has to go out the door to stay under the cap. Neither the commissioner nor he is willing to trade troopers, clerical support, or fingerprint expertise for something at this point in time. The department supports the concept, however. It is extremely important for firemen to have a minimum amount of training along with standards. He just questions whether it is appropriately placed within the Department of Public Safety. He has some concerns about creating a law and not funding it on speculation. Number 0941 CRAIG GOODRICH, Director State Fire Marshal, Division of Fire Prevention, Department of Public Safety, testified via teleconference in Anchorage. He stated the department is concerned about the fiscal note and its impact on the department. The funds will need to be provided in order to provide the necessary support. However, if the bill included language articulating funding outside of the legislature, for example, then it would lessen its impact on the department. Number 1033 KEVIN KELLY, Member, Rural Deltana Fire Department; Vice President, Rural Deltana Fire Protection District, testified via teleconference from Delta Junction. He noted he has Version B of the bill and is concerned about the volunteer fire departments, especially in rural areas, attempting to attain the standards set out by the Alaska Fire Chiefs Association. It would be extremely difficult for Delta Junction because of the number of hours of mandatory annual training. The vast majority of Alaska is covered by volunteers. Delta Junction's coverage area within its district is about 50 miles north-south and 35 miles east-west. There are two fire stations and about 26 volunteers. Delta Junction also responds to some parts outside of its district that have no coverage whatsoever. Version "B" of the bill would put an end to any fire coverage by volunteers throughout the Delta Junction area and other rural areas. Number 1115 REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS noted that further testimony from Kenai will answer a lot of the questions. REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE asked Mr. Kelly whether the current standards for volunteers are local standards or are there statewide standards. MR. KELLY replied Delta Junction tries to follow the National Fire Protection Association's (NFPA) standards as close as possible. He suggested hearing from Audrey Brown to answer some of those types of questions. Number 1153 AUDREY BROWN, Member, Rural Deltana Fire Department, testified via teleconference in Delta Junction. She has been a member of the Rural Deltana Fire Department for about three years and was also a member in the mid-1980s. She is also a emergency medical technician (EMT) I in Delta Junction and certified through the state. She also has a law office and private practice in Delta Junction. The fire department has primary funds for fire protection for the entire area, including 50 miles down the Alaska Highway towards Tok, 35 miles north on the Richardson Highway towards Birch Lake, and 65 miles south of the Richardson Highway towards Paxson. The fire department is composed of volunteers with a wide age range of folks. Most are employed at full-time jobs. The fire department trains for skills regularly needed for fire situations typically encountered - water supply, engineering, extricating, and general fire fighting situations. In addition, the fire department participates annually in training offered by the local Department of Natural Resource's forestry office. If Version "B" is passed, it would effectively shut down the department. In addition, if the department does not meet the standards by July 1, 1999, and responds to a fire, everyone would be guilty of committing a misdemeanor. CHAIRMAN GREEN announced the Version E of the bill is in route to all the teleconference sites. Number 1266 REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE asked Ms. Brown as an EMT I whether she has to pursue a state sanctioned certificate. MS. BROWN replied, "Yes." The training is offered in Delta Junction. REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE stated he would expect the same standards from a firefighter, even a volunteer firefighter. He asked Ms. Brown whether she can see the value of some statewide minimum amount of standards. MS. BROWN replied she can see value to some statewide minimum amount of standards. However, the current training program is providing the skills needed. These are skills that are not necessarily included in firefighter-I training, but are absolutely necessary in Delta Junction. She agrees that there should be some amount of minimum skills, but she does not agree with adopting national skills that are applicable to New York City, for example, without considering the additional training needed for rural departments. REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE asked Ms. Brown whether it would be fair to say that she would like state standards, but ones that take into consideration Alaska's unique concerns. MS. BROWN replied, "Yes." The unique concerns of Delta Junction are quite different than Kenai, Anchorage, or Fairbanks, for example. Delta Junction's volunteers work full time, and the NFPA requirements are an impossibility for a great number of folks. She reiterated there already is mandated training in Delta Junction tailored to meet its needs. REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE stated he didn't mean to indicate Alaska's unique standards. He meant statewide standards and the variety of situations that firefighters might find themselves in. Number 1400 CHAIRMAN GREEN asked Ms. Brown whether the training should be in the locales which would add a significant amount to the cost, or whether there should be a central place for training. MS. BROWN replied, if volunteers were mandated to go to a particular place for training, Delta Junction would probably loose most of the volunteers. She reiterated the training is done specifically for the needs of Delta Junction. For example, there are many volunteers who are in different stages of their training. Number 1503 CHAIRMAN GREEN asked Ms. Brown whether the training is done by certified trainers. MS. BROWN replied, "No." Number 1465 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER noted the Alaska Police Standards Council requires basic instruction within the first year of employment. There isn't a requirement for auxiliary officers or reserve officers which are tantamount to volunteer firefighters. The training received is standardized, but there is the ability of any rural department to submit a training syllabus to the council for certification that can be implemented locally. Number 1503 CHAIRMAN GREEN stated there is a basic manual common to everybody with a chapter or two specified for each area. REPRESENTATIVE PORTER stated there probably are basic firefighter qualifications that can be established relevant to everyone. Then, from that point forward, based on locales, there can be in-service training for special needs. Number 1532 MICHAEL McGOWAN, President, Alaska Fire Chiefs Association, testified via teleconference in Fairbanks. The association is not advocating that the NFPA standards be the only standards, especially in rural Alaska. The association is well aware that firefighter-I standards are too much for smaller departments to meet. The association is advocating for a firefighters standards council to be established. There are NFPA and other standards that would allow smaller departments to adopt an incipient fire department. They would not make entries into building, for example. The association is also aware that there are a lot of volunteers. It is not advocating that the standards be mandatory like the police standards for employment. Number 1606 DAVID TYLER testified via teleconference in Homer. The term "fire service professionals" applies to everybody. Part of the reason behind the legislation is to help get some training into the rural areas. The Alaska Fire Chiefs Association recognizes that the Rural Deltana Fire Department doesn't have the need to train for high-rise fire fighting, for example. The idea for standards is to get the state on an even keel. This is why he is supporting the bill - a better level of training statewide. The training could still be done in Delta Junction, but the curriculum and direction would be supplied for their needs. Number 1690 CHAIRMAN GREEN asked whether there is anyone on the teleconference network that can speak to the amendment deleting the last few pages of the bill. MR. TYLER explained part of the reason is to take areas like Deltana into consideration and to provide for their needs. CHAIRMAN GREEN asked if those sections of the bill were deleted and the required training was left to the local areas rather than leaving 90 percent of the training uniformed and 10 percent specialized for an area, would the intent of the bill be negated. MR. TYLER replied, "No." The council would have to approve the training programs for a local area. Number 1777 REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE referred to the Alaska firefighters and fire instructions fund, and stated it sounds like a dedicated fund. He pointed out that there are constitutional problems with a dedicated fund. REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS noted that provision would be deleted, if the amendment is adopted. CHAIRMAN GREEN asked whether there is anybody to answer Representative Bunde's question in regards to the dedicated fund. Number 1844 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER stated the provision doesn't have a constitutional problem. It reads, "The fund consists of appropriations made by the legislature to the fund." It is a fund like any other fund that might receive program receipts from the licensing fee. Number 1865 REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE agreed with Representative Porter's take on the provision. However, if it is indented to be a dedicated fund, it needs to be looked at more closely. If the provision is to stay in the bill, there would be another group advocating for money to fill a fund. Number 1891 REPRESENTATIVE NORMAN ROKEBERG stated the bill looks similar to the structure of the professional boards and commissions with the exception of such things as the surety fund for the Real Estate Commission - impounded money returned to consumers in the event of a misdeed. He doesn't recall seeing any kind of fund for boards or commissions, however. It just goes to the general fund. CHAIRMAN GREEN asked Representative Rokeberg whether there is money coming back from the general fund for the other boards and commissions. REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG replied there are actual program receipts, but this goes through the general fund. There aren't any stipulated funds. CHAIRMAN GREEN noted most are a two-way street. In other words, they aren't just funding. Number 1957 MR. McGOWAN asked whether the amendment would delete the specific language of "fire fighters and fire instructors" and include the broad term of "fire service professionals" throughout the bill. CHAIRMAN GREEN replied that is his understanding. REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS replied that is correct. MR. McGOWAN stated he would very much support that. There are many different titles in fire fighting including volunteers. Number 2017 REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE stated there are a number of references to "fire fighter or fire instructor" throughout the bill. It is probably up to the bill drafter, to be consistent throughout the bill. There might be some problems if it mentions fire service professionals in the title, but only speaks to fire fighters and fire instructors throughout the bill. MR. McGOWAN stated another appropriate word is "fire service personnel." Either fire service personnel or fire service professional throughout the entire bill would be more consistent. Number 2060 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER stated whatever term is it needs to be defined in detail. Janitors, for example, don't need the same training, but they are fire service personnel. Number 2090 REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE wondered whether the more appropriate term is "fire service personnel" rather than "fire service professional." A professional is also a volunteer. Number 2110 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER stated that according to his take on the bill, volunteers would be exempt from the required certification. Number 2120 DAVID SQUIRES testified via teleconference in Seward. He said he supports the current version of the bill. He understands what Rural Deltana Fire Department is saying, but there needs to be a state standard for the medical personnel. He can see where meeting a standard puts a big bind on the volunteer staff. Therefore, the standards should be community driven. As far as exchanging the language to "fire service personnel," he believes the volunteers should be included with the paid personnel. For years there has been a dual standard, and the Alaska Fire Fighters Association has tried to eliminate the difference between the two. "What's good for one, is good for them all," he declared. Number 2200 JOHN WILLIAMS, Mayor, City of Kenai, testified via teleconference in Kenai. The first requirement is to establish the Alaska Fire Fighters Standards Council to give way to the creation of standards. The council is required in the bill to consult and cooperate with municipalities, agencies of the state, other governmental agencies, universities, colleges, and other institutions concerning the development of firefighter and fire instructor training schools and programs of the Department of Public Safety. He thinks, if everyone keeps his eye on the intent of the bill to establish the council by the effective date of July 1, 1999, the council could in the meantime work towards the creation of grandfather rights and grace periods. Number 2270 REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG stated he is not too sure what the Alaska Fire Chiefs Association is trying to accomplish. He asked Mr. Williams to tell him why a bureaucracy is needed to be established. MR. WILLIAMS replied to his complete surprise the only public safety people in the state of Alaska that are not standardized are the fire departments. Every other public safety group within the state has standards. Number 2344 JASON ELSON testified via teleconference in Kenai. He informed the committee he is a member of the Alaska Fire Chiefs Association. He supports the committee substitute and the amendment. The language is very similar to the Alaska Police Standards Council in statute. In regards to the fund, it is neither a special nor dedicated fund. In regards to the deleted language starting on page 3, he wondered whether it is the bread-and-butter of the police council. He is not sure whether the sections should be deleted. In regards to the effective date, he noted it is the effective date for the council and not the date for the standards to be adopted. Number 2415 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER asked Mr. Elson whether the bill is a certification process for paid personnel and not volunteers. MR. ELSON replied, "No, sir." The bill is to establish a council to help develop standards for fire service personnel across the state, including paid personnel, volunteers, industrial fire brigade personnel, and airport crash fire and rescue personnel, for example. The Alaska Fire Chiefs Association is not asking for all personnel to meet the same standards, but is asking for communities to buy into a level that they feel is needed to protect their assets. Number 2443 CHAIRMAN GREEN asked Mr. Elson whether the communities would buy into a procedure common to all with some nuances, or some sort of training specific to their locations. MR. ELSON responded, "I think either one or both." TAPE 98-58, SIDE B Number 0000 SCOTT WALDEN testified via teleconference from Kenai. He stated he is in support of the bill. Number 0014 DAVE BURNETT testified via teleconference from Kenai. The idea behind the bill is to provide organization and continuity within the fire services statewide, including volunteers and paid personnel. The council would cooperate with the municipalities to provide the necessary training for the different areas. He supports the bill. Number 0036 CHAIRMAN GREEN asked Mr. Burnett whether he agrees that the bill wouldn't necessarily mean the same training throughout the state, but that there would be some continuity with some nuances depending on the area. MR. BURNETT replied, "Yes." Number 0046 REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG asked Mr. Elson whether the bill would cover the long list of emergency service personnel that he cited earlier. He wants to make sure that the intent of the bill is to cover what he would categorize as personnel other than firefighters. MR. ELSON replied the personnel that he listed are firefighters, not necessarily professional firefighters or volunteers. They are firefighters in the private sector such as, industrial fire brigade and airport crash fire and rescue personnel. Yes, standards for them would be developed and adopted and the council would oversee them. Number 0085 REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG stated the way the bill is drafted falls short of including persons performing fire suppression services. He read the following language: "'fire fighter' means a person who performs fire prevention of fire suppression services as an employee or volunteer with a fire department registered with the state fire marshal." MR. ELSON stated the Alaska Police Standards Council addresses those members involved in the Department of Fish and Game and correctional officers, for example. Number 0130 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER explained there are two levels of certification for police officers - below a community of 1,000 and above a community of 1,000. The council struggled for four years to distinguish between standards for the two levels. It then addressed the Village Public Safety Officers (VPSOs) and correctional officers. The creation of an Alaska Fire Fighters Standards Council is asking for a monumental task. He believes that the standards should be brought back to the legislature for confirmation. Some legislators will probably be long gone before they comes back, however. Number 0180 MR. McGOWAN stated the majority of the work has already been done. There are many national standards that already exist. "We're not looking at reinventing the wheel," he declared. Although there is concern of setting standards too high for the rural and volunteer departments to meet, there are lower standards even within the NFPA, such as fire brigade standards. In addition, many standards are already mandated by the Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA). The departments that aren't meeting those standards voluntarily are putting their necks on the chopping block in the event of a lawsuit. Number 0230 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER stated they would be even more so by Alaska's standards. Number 0247 CHAIRMAN GREEN asked whether the individuals who are presently engaged in fire fighting would be given a grace period to qualify. Number 0274 MR. ELSON replied it is the intent of the Alaska Fire Chiefs Association to allow for a grace period and grandfather clause. The members who currently meet the standards would be grandfathered, and there would be a grace period to meet any new standard. It is not intended to make everyone come on line automatically. Number 0307 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER asked Mr. Elson whether there is any opposition from the departments. MR. ELSON replied the Alaska Fire Chiefs Association has taken great efforts to try to network with many of the departments. It has held meetings and teleconferences regarding the issue. It has informed its constituents in the Alaska Fire Fighters Association. It has worked with the state fire marshall's office, the entire Department of Public Safety, and the commissioner. At this time, the general consent is that legislation is needed to develop a fire service standards council. CHAIRMAN GREEN asked Mr. Elson whether there was any consideration given to volunteer firefighters who come from other states to help with a fire situation such as Millers Reach. MR. ELSON replied generally they already meet certification standards in other states. If they were to take up residency in the state, there have been past cases where individuals have challenged or tested to meet standards. There is no opposition to that. MR. McGOWAN stated the issue of standards is to recognize some type of reciprocity, if Alaska recognizes the national standards. Number 0435 CHAIRMAN GREEN stated he is concerned about states that don't have standards and volunteers who are pressed into service. MR. McGOWAN stated a good Samaritan wouldn't be required to follow these standards, but a person in an organized fire department would be. Number 0469 REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE first asked, if there is support for the original bill, why is there an amendment. Secondly, he sees nothing in the bill that addresses a phase-in. Thirdly, he sees language that needs to be cleaned up for consistency before he can vote on this bill. Number 0485 REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG agreed with Representative Bunde. He is concerned that there hasn't been any real discussion on the forestry aspect of the bill and how it fits into the scheme. He noticed that there is a letter in the packet from Soldonta, Chief Len A. Malmquist, who mentions that the Alaska Fire Chiefs Association proposes a $1 per capita and program receipt concept as a stable funding source for the council. He is afraid it will be hard to sell the bill because of its fiscal note. The other professional boards and commissions are mandated to be self- sustaining through program receipts. He understands that this is a different thing and more analogous to the Alaska Police Standards Council. However, the lesson is how it fits into the public's need for the development of statewide standards and how it is handled with the public's treasury. It seems the way is to establish standards without the bureaucracy. Number 0571 CHAIRMAN GREEN concurred with Representative Rokeberg. The sponsor has indicated that there is hope for a zero fiscal note, but the testimony has indicated the contrary. In light of the concerns, he would prefer that the sponsor take another look at the bill and incorporate some of the things that have been discussed today. Number 0605 REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS stated he would go ahead and make changes to the bill in order to satisfy the committee members, then bring it back. HJR 60 - COMMUNITY DIVIDEND FUND Number 0616 CHAIRMAN GREEN announced the committee would address HJR 60, "Proposing amendments to the Constitution of the State of Alaska relating to the community dividend fund, the permanent fund, and the budget reserve fund," sponsored by Representative Davis. REPRESENTATIVE GARY DAVIS came before the committee to explain his resolution. One of the reasons he introduced the legislation is because of budget constraints. He stated as a member of the House Finance Committee, he has become aware of the complexities involved with our budget cutting process and the elimination of programs. Representative Davis said, "We need to look at how we ... operate state government, what we provide for the citizens of our state compared to how other states operate and what they provide. Of course we have a uniqueness in Alaska that is different than other states. Our manufacturing opportunities are not as great and there is a large tax base associated with manufacturing operations. Industry is a similar situation. Our population base is not large enough to where property taxes, sales taxes and things like that don't generate as much dollars as they do in other states. Our law enforcement enforcing laws and local ordinances and regulations is weak at best. With myself, living on the Kenai River in a community that the Kenai River runs through, we consistently hear of fishing violations that people are getting absolutely fed up with, but there is no enforcement. There is no dollars for enforcement. There is no additional dollars, no increases in those dollars for enforcement of those type of activities. And of course the municipal funding needs, most of what I just talked about, in most places provide an economic base for most municipalities to provide for the services of the citizens of each community. In Alaska, we provide lots of those dollars. There is lists of what we provide and I think ... probably in every page of the ... state budget we can see things that the state provides to local municipalities that, under normal circumstances in most places, local municipalities provide those funds, and those services, and the dollars to provide those services. So we have a unique situation." Representative Davis indicated if there was a larger tax base and opportunity for industry in communities, the municipalities would be able to provide for themselves. He continued to inform the committee members of several programs that the state currently funds. Representative Davis informed the committee he introduced the resolution to provide an endowment for municipalities. He stated that he proposes that some seed money, $750 million, from the constitutional budget reserve fund, be used. He stated he has also proposed 2 percent of the permanent fund earnings be used to supplement $750 million on an annual basis. He informed the committee that his understanding of the intent of the permanent fund was to provide revenues to the state when our oil wealth is diminished to the degree that we cannot adequately provide government services to the people of the state. He indicated this would provide dollars for the future. The initial set up of the fund would come close to what the state is currently providing in municipal assistance and revenue sharing. Municipalities are concerned as to what their annual appropriations will be. If the resolution is passed by the legislature, the question would then go the voters as it would be a dedicated fund and would require a constitutional change. Number 1146 CHAIRMAN GREEN stated there are some estimates for 20 years from now that the amount of money that is generated by the permanent fund may be too low to take care of inflation-proofing and permanent fund dividends (PFD). He said, "And that if we put this, as it says 'not withstanding' that would set that, I presume, above the other two categories. Has there been any thought to that possibility other than just some concerns? I haven't heard or seen any projections to that effect, but I've certainly heard that concern expressed." REPRESENTATIVE DAVIES explained that the intent is put the 2 percent draw above those. The 2 percent draw is for 20 years also. Depending on how the numbers come out on when there may be a draw down to not even be able cover inflation proofing, the 20 years could be adjusted. He noted that even the 2 percent could be withdrawn. The legislation is flexible and is drafted to generate discussion on all the issues. Number 1227 REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE referred to legislature often being criticized for the volume of per capita amount of state spending when the local governments don't pick up a good portion of the funding in other areas. Representative Bunde referred to the 2 percent figure and asked if that wouldn't be better spent statewide by the legislature rather than in the local arenas. Representative Bunde referred to the municipalities having a dividend coming in and asked if wouldn't encourage residents of those municipalities to demand services at a higher level because they're not going to have to pay for them as money would come in off the dividend. He asked how the dividend would deal with specific services that aren't currently state services. He referenced that in Anchorage there are hybrid roads that belong to the state and are maintained by the city and, in other words, nobody is responsible for them. Number 1336 REPRESENTATIVE DAVIS referred to the maintenance of highways and roads and explained that the state has been trying to negotiate with municipalities to take over some of that maintenance. He informed the committee that in Soldotna the there is a five mile long road and there are six or eight roads off of that road. The state maintains the long road and the municipality maintains some of side roads. The state doesn't maintain anything across the highway. If the legislation passes, it would offer opportunity to simplify the process. REPRESENTATIVE PORTER offered his congratulations for bringing the issue up as it is one that needs discussion. He said Representative Davies indicated that the numbers would be pretty close to what the municipal revenue sharing and municipal assistance budget currently is. REPRESENTATIVE DAVIS said he has information that shows the current revenue sharing dollars for FY 98 is $22 million. He indicated that currently there is about $50 million being paid out by the state into those two accounts. A proposed income for the first year would be about $76 million. Number 1518 DEB DAVIDSON, Legislative Administrative Assistant to Representative Gary Davis, Alaska State Legislature, came before the committee. She said, "If we're looking at the pay out to the community dividend fund the interest from the fund, as estimated by the -- the permanent fund did the actual projections, the income pay out in the first year from the interest earned on what was put into the municipal dividend fund would be right around $56 million depending on whether or not you decided to inflation proof or how you wanted to inflation-proof and also depending on the type of investments that were made." REPRESENTATIVE DAVIS noted that you would want to try and increase the principal as much as possible, at least initially, and not have 100 percent pay out. He stated that you may look at an 80 percent or 90 percent pay out. You would want to keep some additional dollars to increase the principal over time. REPRESENTATIVE PORTER said he would assume that there wouldn't be an adverse impact on projected dividends and inflation-proofing. MS. DAVIDSON said there may be a table in the committee file that lists some projections on the effect of the PFD. By taking the 2 percent off of the income, the amounts needed for inflation- proofing and the PFD would not change as the 2 percent would not be subtracted out of the calculations. The change would be in the balance of the earnings reserve account over the years. REPRESENTATIVE DAVIS said, "The initial proposed hits to the dividend would be zero. At 20 years, it would be about $20. So it's an average of $10. If you take all the money over 20 years, it would be an average of $10, a year, hit on the dividend." Number 1826 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER asked Representative Davis if he is anticipating the same general distribution criteria that currently exists. REPRESENTATIVE DAVIS explained that the legislation speaks to organized municipalities that are organized under Title 29. He said he believes that there are currently some municipal assistance dollars being distributed to unorganized municipalities. The resolution was drafted to generate discussion on whether the state should distribute to areas not organized under Title 29. Number 1872 REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG said former Governor Hickel has spoke about something similar. Governor Hickel had taken the approach that the legislature would look at each individual allocation of the PFD and take a percentage or allocate a percentage of that to the political subdivision of the resident of which that permanent fund was directed to. He asked Representative Davis if he as looked at other methodologies to try and reach the same goal. REPRESENTATIVE DAVIS said he got the idea from Governor Hickel. He stated that he believes Governor Hickel's proposal is mirrored in a resolution submitted by Representative Moses. His understanding is that it caps the PFD. It still uses the dividend formula, and anything above the cap would be distributed into this account. He stated it also utilizes 100 percent of the balance of the earnings reserve and puts that into the account. He stated he isn't sure how long the balance of the earnings reserve fund and the cap on the dividends would be utilized. Representative Davis stated he introduced his resolution because he didn't feel that previous proposals he discussed wouldn't be acceptable at this time by the voters. He noted his 2 percent figure is not a vital part of his resolution and he used it to generate public discussion. Number 2163 REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE said one of the things that vexes him is the same people who are critical of the legislature not reducing state spending enough are also critical of the legislature reducing municipal revenue sharing. He said, "And I would find one problem with this idea is that they're getting theirs so they would still be then very critical of state spending in other areas because this money is going to organize cities and boroughs. As a resident of an organized city, I could see some advantage to that, however, I could also anticipate some criticism from people who live in unorganized areas. And I'm wonder if you think this might be, (1) and incentive to organize and start paying for some of the services they feel they need; and (2) how do we respond to the notion that this is using the people's money, the permanent fund, for ... part of Alaska rather than if the money went to the legislature, it would be available for appropriation to all of us?" REPRESENTATIVE DAVIS said it is true that it uses the people's money, but it's also going to the people. He stated he has had reservations, since drafting the resolution, about not including the unorganized areas. For simplicity, it should be distributed under the current formula that revenue sharing is distributed, which would include all organized and unorganized areas of the state. The money is the people's money and it would go to the people which he believes is an intent of the permanent fund. Representative Davis said, "We choose to distribute the people's money in dividends and we've chosen to inflation proof and we've chosen to hold on to the balance and keep it into an account and redistribute it into the principal. Those are what the legislature has chosen to do to meet what apparently the legislature feels is the intent of the permanent fund. But I also think its generating discussion is the intent, also, to share the wealth with municipalities, which in turn - I mean under this proposal and there is no strings attached to these dollars like there are to other dollars that the state distributes to municipalities. If Anchorage wanted to form their own dividend and distribute those dollars to the people that they receive, that would be their prerogative. There is no strings attached to these. So it is going to the people. The municipalities, by ordinance, would be spending these dollars. If the people realize there is a chunk of money coming to the municipality from this fund, the people could go to their assembly...." TAPE 98-59, SIDE A Number 0001 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER said although there has been a lot of ideas on what should be the first public purpose use instead of individual dividends for the earnings of the permanent fund, his problem with most of them was they highlighted one particular area of need in the state and didn't address the other needs. It was extremely hard to justify one salient need over one or two other salient needs that wouldn't be receiving those funds. Representative Porter said his opinion is the resolution is as close as he has seen to an appropriate first crack as it does distribute these earnings where they belong - to the people. Number 0201 JOHN WILLIAMS, Mayor, City of Kenai, testified via teleconference from Kenai in support of HJR 60. He stated he is pleased with Representative Davis' decision to introduce the legislation. The concept of the resolution is something that he has been discussing around the state with many groups and people. He elaborated on discussion he had with former Governor Hickel who suggested keeping it simple. Mr. Williams pointed out the Alaska Municipal League (AML) has looked at the concept of the legislation as a great way to solve differences between the legislature and communities with regard to continuing efforts in municipal assistance and revenue funds. The Alaska Mayors Association has taken up the call of an educational process that hopefully will lead to an amendment to the constitution. Mr. Williams said the numbers are correct with regard to the 2 percent earnings. He referred to the unorganized areas and said they look to their borough assembly, which is the Alaska State Legislature. He stated, "We have handled that situation through AML by having a $40,000 hold harmless agreement with those groups and villagers who could apply and I'm sure that could be built into the distribution of funds from the community dividend program. The Alaska Humanities Forum has been traveling around the state for several months now holding public hearings. I've attended two of them." Mr. Williams said HJR 60 is a definite move in a positive direction. He urged the committee to continue the education process and the development of the community dividend program. Number 0510 GEORGE CARNAHAN testified via teleconference from Kenai against HJR 60. He stated, "I'm opposed to this House Joint Resolution 60 because you've imposed a tobacco tax - all different kinds of taxes and give the oil companies money. They won't charge them full appraisals on their property and they turn around and want to take it out on us second class citizens pockets. And I think the Governor has got to get real and think -- maybe they got to do what China done here last week, they cut half their government in half." Number 0572 KEVIN RITCHIE, Executive Director, Alaska Municipal League, testified in support of HJR 60. He thanked Representative Davis for introducing the resolution. Mr. Ritchie stated that he believes Representative Davis outlined very nicely the old reality of the state budget and revenues and the new reality of the state budget and revenues. Mr. Ritchie stated one reality is that the interest earnings from the Alaska's savings account, including the permanent fund, have exceeded any other source of revenue for the state of Alaska. It is a vast economic resource that truly does need to be discussed as to that is used. Mr. Ritchie said the reality the AML sees on a municipal level is that people are not asking for less maintenance on roads, schools or boat harbors. They're asking for things to be done probably at a higher rate than they're being done today. The question is, "Who is going to pay for that?" He asked if we are going to use the current resources that are available or is the property tax going to be the key way of funding municipal services. He continued to discuss schools and how they are funded with the mill rate. Mr. Ritchie referred to the taxes that people pay on their PFD and pointed out the money sent to the federal government could be sent to communities instead by cutting the local taxpayer out of the route. There is a tremendous amount of potential. He referred to it being a real valid question as to how responsibilities are allocated between state and local government and pointed out that a number of local governments, that are water-based municipalities, are willing to take over ownership of their state boat harbor after good repairs are done by the state. He noted the same thing for roads being transferred to the municipalities. Mr. Ritchie pointed out that the constitution puts the legislature clearly in charge of what the municipalities do and how they do it. The legislature will always be in charge one way or the other. He pointed out the AML and the Alaska Conference of Mayors are not specifically endorsing one process of doing this as the only way. They are just trying to get the public in productive discussions of how this vast resource can be used. Mr. Ritchie gave committee members a resolution that was adopted the previous week by the Alaska Conference of Mayors and the AML board of directors. He thanked the committee for listening to his testimony. CHAIRMAN GREEN indicated there were no further witnesses to testify and asked what the wish was of the committee. Number 0962 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER pointed out the total pay out in PFDs is $500 million a year. If you figure an average of 20 percent in taxes, $100 million per year is being sent to the federal government. Representative Porter moved and asked unanimous consent to move HJR 60 out of committee with individual recommendations. There being no objection, HJR 60 moved out of the House Judiciary Standing Committee. HB 474 - CERTIFY MUNICIPAL CORRECTIONAL OFFICERS Number 1045 CHAIRMAN GREEN announced the final item of business would be HB 474, "An Act relating to correctional officers." He called on Laddie Shaw to testify, noting that they are trying to make anyone in charge of incarcerating state prisoners meet a standard that all other incarcerating officers meet. REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE said, "Move it." REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG inquired whether there is a fiscal note. CHAIRMAN GREEN pointed out that there is a zero fiscal note. REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG asked where the money is coming from to do this. Number 1066 LADDIE SHAW, Executive Director, Alaska Police Standards Council, noted that with him was Barbara Murray, Community Jails Coordinator, Division of Administrative Services, Department of Corrections. He told members that if this is approved, the training will come from the existing surcharge, which exists for them as a regulatory authority for training for law enforcement and corrections. Number 1097 CHAIRMAN GREEN asked whether there were further questions or any objections to moving the bill. Hearing no objection, he announced that HB 474 was moved from the House Judiciary Standing Committee. ADJOURNMENT Number 1102 CHAIRMAN GREEN adjourned the House Judiciary Standing Committee meeting at 3:05 p.m.