ALASKA STATE LEGISLATURE                                                                                  
          HOUSE HEALTH, EDUCATION AND SOCIAL SERVICES                                                                         
                       STANDING COMMITTEE                                                                                     
                         March 5, 2002                                                                                          
                           3:04 p.m.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                              
MEMBERS PRESENT                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Representative Fred Dyson, Chair                                                                                                
Representative John Coghill                                                                                                     
Representative Gary Stevens                                                                                                     
Representative Vic Kohring                                                                                                      
Representative Sharon Cissna                                                                                                    
Representative Reggie Joule                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MEMBERS ABSENT                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
Representative Peggy Wilson, Vice Chair                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
COMMITTEE CALENDAR                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
HOUSE BILL NO. 352                                                                                                              
"An  Act  extending  the  dates   for  assignment  of  performance                                                              
designations  of public  schools  and the  dates  for reports  and                                                              
monitoring  based  on those  designations;  and providing  for  an                                                              
effective date."                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
     - MOVED CSHB 352(HES) OUT OF COMMITTEE                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
HOUSE BILL NO. 309                                                                                                              
"An Act relating to the Interstate Compact on Placement of                                                                      
Children."                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
     - HEARD AND HELD                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
PREVIOUS ACTION                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
BILL: HB 352                                                                                                                  
SHORT TITLE:SCHOOL PERFORMANCE REPORTS                                                                                          
SPONSOR(S): RLS BY REQUEST OF THE GOVERNOR                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Jrn-Date   Jrn-Page                      Action                                                                                 
01/23/02     2042       (H)         READ THE FIRST TIME -                                                                       
                                    REFERRALS                                                                                   
01/23/02     2042       (H)         EDU, HES                                                                                    
01/23/02     2042       (H)         FN1: ZERO(EED)                                                                              
01/23/02     2042       (H)         GOVERNOR'S TRANSMITTAL LETTER                                                               
02/13/02                (H)         EDU AT 8:00 AM CAPITOL 120                                                                  
02/13/02                (H)         Moved Out of Committee                                                                      
02/13/02                (H)         MINUTE(EDU)                                                                                 
02/13/02     2230       (H)         EDU RPT 4DP 3NR                                                                             
02/13/02     2230       (H)         DP: GUESS, JOULE, STEVENS,                                                                  
                                    WILSON;                                                                                     
02/13/02     2230       (H)         NR: PORTER, GREEN, BUNDE                                                                    
02/13/02     2230       (H)         FN1: ZERO(EED)                                                                              
02/21/02                (H)         HES AT 3:00 PM CAPITOL 106                                                                  
02/21/02                (H)         Heard & Held                                                                                
02/21/02                (H)         MINUTE(HES)                                                                                 
03/05/02                (H)         HES AT 3:00 PM CAPITOL 106                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
BILL: HB 309                                                                                                                  
SHORT TITLE:INTERSTATE PLACEMENT OF CHILDREN                                                                                    
SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S)CHENAULT                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
Jrn-Date   Jrn-Page                      Action                                                                                 
01/14/02     1956       (H)         PREFILE RELEASED 1/4/02                                                                     
01/14/02     1956       (H)         READ THE FIRST TIME -                                                                       
                                    REFERRALS                                                                                   
01/14/02     1956       (H)         HES, JUD                                                                                    
01/14/02     1956       (H)         REFERRED TO HES                                                                             
01/29/02                (H)         HES AT 3:00 PM CAPITOL 106                                                                  
01/29/02                (H)         -- Meeting Canceled --                                                                      
01/30/02     2101       (H)         COSPONSOR(S): DYSON                                                                         
02/05/02                (H)         HES AT 3:00 PM CAPITOL 106                                                                  
02/05/02                (H)         Heard & Held                                                                                
02/05/02                (H)         MINUTE(HES)                                                                                 
02/12/02                (H)         HES AT 3:00 PM CAPITOL 106                                                                  
02/12/02                (H)         <Bill Postponed to 2/19/02>                                                                 
02/19/02                (H)         HES AT 3:00 PM CAPITOL 106                                                                  
02/19/02                (H)         <Bill Postponed to 2/21/02                                                                  
02/21/02                (H)         HES AT 3:00 PM CAPITOL 106                                                                  
02/21/02                (H)         Scheduled But Not Heard                                                                     
03/05/02                (H)         HES AT 3:00 PM CAPITOL 106                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
WITNESS REGISTER                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
ED McLAIN, Ph.D., Deputy Commission of Education                                                                                
Office of the Commissioner                                                                                                      
Department of Education and Early Development                                                                                   
801 West Tenth Street, Suite 320                                                                                                
Juneau, Alaska  99801-1894                                                                                                      
POSITION STATEMENT:  Presented HB  352 and answered questions.                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MARK LEAL, Director of Assessment                                                                                               
Teaching and Learning Support                                                                                                   
Department of Education and Early Development                                                                                   
801 West Tenth Street, Suite 200                                                                                                
Juneau, Alaska  99801-1894                                                                                                      
POSITION STATEMENT:  Presented HB 352 and answered questions.                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
DEE HUBBARD, Parent Teacher Association Representative                                                                          
School Designator Committee                                                                                                     
P.O. Box 88                                                                                                                     
Sterling, Alaska  99672                                                                                                         
POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified in support of HB 352.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
LARRY WIGET, Ph.D., Executive Director                                                                                          
Public Affairs                                                                                                                  
Anchorage School District                                                                                                       
P.O. Box 196614                                                                                                                 
Anchorage, Alaska  99519-6614                                                                                                   
POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified in support of HB 352.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
SUE WRIGHT, Staff                                                                                                               
to Representative Mike Chenault                                                                                                 
Alaska State Legislature                                                                                                        
Capitol Building, Room 432                                                                                                      
Juneau, Alaska  99801                                                                                                           
POSITION STATEMENT:  Answered questions pertaining to HB 309 on                                                                 
behalf of Representative Chenault, sponsor; expressed belief                                                                    
that the bill would not place Alaska outside the ICPC agreement.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
THERESA TANOURY, Director                                                                                                       
Division of Family and Youth Services                                                                                           
Department of Health and Social Services                                                                                        
P.O. Box 110630                                                                                                                 
Juneau, Alaska  99811-0630                                                                                                      
POSITION STATEMENT:  Explained that HB 309 would place Alaska                                                                   
outside of the ICPC agreement.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
ANNE CARPENETI, Assistant Attorney General                                                                                      
Legal Services Section-Juneau                                                                                                   
Criminal Division                                                                                                               
Department of Law                                                                                                               
P.O. Box 110300                                                                                                                 
Juneau, Alaska  99811-0300                                                                                                      
POSITION STATEMENT:  During hearing on HB 309, expressed concern                                                                
that the penalties in the bill do not require proof of a                                                                        
culpable mental state.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
CANDACE BROWER, Program Coordinator                                                                                             
Office of the Commissioner-Juneau                                                                                               
Department of Corrections                                                                                                       
431 Franklin, Suite 400                                                                                                         
Juneau, Alaska  99801                                                                                                           
POSITION STATEMENT:   During hearing on HB 309,  expressed concern                                                              
about  the  potential  cost  to  the  state  of  the  imprisonment                                                              
provision in the bill.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
ACTION NARRATIVE                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
TAPE 02-18, SIDE A                                                                                                              
Number 0001                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR FRED  DYSON called  the House  Health, Education  and Social                                                              
Services  Standing  Committee  meeting   to  order  at  3:04  p.m.                                                              
Representatives  Dyson, Coghill, Stevens,  Cissna, and  Joule were                                                              
present at the  call to order.  Representative  Kohring arrived as                                                              
the meeting was in progress.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
HB 352-SCHOOL PERFORMANCE REPORTS                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
Number 0157                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR DYSON  announced that the  first order of business  would be                                                              
HOUSE BILL  NO. 352,  "An Act extending  the dates for  assignment                                                              
of performance  designations of public  schools and the  dates for                                                              
reports   and  monitoring   based  on   those  designations;   and                                                              
providing for an effective date."                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
[Amendment 1  had been adopted on  2/21/02.  Amendment  2 had been                                                              
placed before the  committee on that date and  discussed; the full                                                              
text is found in the 2/21/02 minutes.]                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
Number 0172                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
ED McLAIN,  Ph.D., Deputy Commission  of Education, Office  of the                                                              
Commissioner,  Department  of  Education   and  Early  Development                                                              
(EED), thanked Representative  Dyson for his earlier  meeting with                                                              
EED personnel  regarding  the proposed language  [in Amendment  2]                                                              
to  address  the reporting  of  district  efforts to  involve  the                                                              
community in  establishing behavior  standards.  He  reported that                                                              
the  current  processes  were  discussed  in that  meeting;  as  a                                                              
result, [EED]  had drafted a  letter outlining the  procedures for                                                              
[EED and school districts].                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
DR.  McLAIN offered  that reporting  of  this issue  was the  main                                                              
concern  [addressed  in Amendment  2].   He  said,  "We wanted  to                                                              
commit  for the  record that  we  think that  that reporting  does                                                              
make sense."  He  noted that EED has found a  way to [procedurally                                                              
accommodate  this reporting]; the  aforementioned letter  outlines                                                              
the   procedures  for   doing  so.     He   concluded,  "It's   my                                                              
understanding  that  this  would  address  the  concern  that  was                                                              
raised  in Representative  Dyson's proposed  amendment, and  we're                                                              
hoping  that with  this  process  laid out,  ...  that concern  is                                                              
alleviated."                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
[Committee  aide   Jason  Hooley,  in  response   to  a  question,                                                              
indicated Chair Dyson  had offered Amendment 2 at  the February 21                                                              
hearing; it had not been adopted or voted on.]                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
Number 0288                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  DYSON recounted  that several  years  ago, the  legislature                                                              
passed into  law a  school safety and  behavior bill;  it required                                                              
each  school  to  go through  a  community  process  to  establish                                                              
community-supported   behavior  and   safety  standards   for  the                                                              
school.   The  bill  also  provided  protection for  teachers  and                                                              
administrators  for  enforcing  the standards  and  following  the                                                              
procedures,  provided the  school  had a  discipline procedure  in                                                              
place.  He said:                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
     To  my  dismay,   there's  no  written  record   or  ...                                                                   
     evidence  that   any  schools  have  been   aggressively                                                                   
     following  the  law.    So, in  a  ...  slightly  clumsy                                                                   
     fashion,  I was  attempting to  amend into  this bill  a                                                                   
     requirement  for   the  reporting  of  the   process  of                                                                   
     [these] behavior and safety standards.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR DYSON reported  that [EED] has convinced him  this isn't the                                                              
most appropriate  way to  accomplish it;  furthermore, [EED]  will                                                              
accomplish  this through  regulation.   "That's  what they've  put                                                              
before you  in writing," he added.   He drew attention  to the EED                                                              
letter  dated  March  7  to  superintendents   [that  will  inform                                                              
administrators of the new procedures].                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  DYSON withdrew  [Amendment  2] for  the foregoing  reasons.                                                              
He  noted that  the main  bill [with  Amendment 1's  typographical                                                              
correction] was before the committee.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
Number 0450                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  DYSON asked  about the three  types of  designations:   one                                                              
used with  schools in need  of improvement  under Title I  and the                                                              
[Elementary  and Secondary  Education Act  (ESEA)]; one passed  by                                                              
the legislature  one or two years  ago; and one introduced  by the                                                              
federal government.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
DR. McLAIN  agreed with  Chair Dyson's synopsis  of the  first two                                                              
types of designations;  he elaborated on the  federal designation,                                                              
saying,  "They're giving  new  guidelines on  how  they wanted  to                                                              
[have] the  fed part  revised and  broadened.   The current  fed -                                                              
the one that's out now - really refers only to Title I schools."                                                                
                                                                                                                                
DR.  McLAIN estimated  only 270  schools of  Alaska's 506  schools                                                              
are designated  as Title  I schools.   Those  270 schools  are the                                                              
only   schools   covered   by  the   current   set   of   [federal                                                              
designations].   He  said the  new  U.S. House  Resolution 1  [the                                                              
reauthorization  of the ESEA]  takes a  much broader [approach  to                                                              
designations], requiring  states to have a designation  system for                                                              
all schools.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Number 0479                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  DYSON asked  if the  [U.S. Department  of Education  (DOE)]                                                              
has identified the new designations it is requiring.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
DR. McLAIN replied  that they indeed have.  He asked  Mark Leal to                                                              
expound on that matter.                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Number 0550                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MARK  LEAL,   Director  of   Assessment,  Teaching   and  Learning                                                              
Support,  Department of  Education and  Early Development,  stated                                                              
that the  ESEA talks  about "adequate  yearly progress"  (AYP) and                                                              
sanctions for schools  that do not make adequate  yearly progress.                                                              
The  ESEA  does  not  address  the  higher  designations  such  as                                                              
"distinguished"  that a  school might  receive, he  offered.   The                                                              
ESEA  is  very  specific  about  what Alaska  would  call  an  "in                                                              
crisis"  designation  based  on   test  scores,  and  it  is  very                                                              
specific about  the definition of  AYP for students  and subgroups                                                              
in the state.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Number 0590                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  DYSON  inquired  if  United  States  H.R.  1  automatically                                                              
supersedes the old designations.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
DR. McLAIN responded:                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
     It  will.   It was  very specific  ... in  that it  will                                                                   
     replace [the  old designations].   But the schools  that                                                                   
     are  already in  that process  are  not grandfathered  -                                                                   
     ... they  will continue.  So  if a school is  already in                                                                   
     year two or  year three [as a school  improvement site],                                                                   
     they will  continue. ... They  will not get a  chance to                                                                   
     start over.  ... We do have  11 to 13 schools  that have                                                                   
     been designated as school improvement [sites].                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  DYSON  asked  for  clarification  about  the  name  of  the                                                              
designation for [Title I] schools needing improvement.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MR. LEAL offered that it is "school improvement site."                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR DYSON asked  whether one of the new federal  categories fits                                                              
that name, "schools in need of improvement."                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
DR.  McLAIN  replied  that  the  federal  designation  of  "school                                                              
improvement  site" is  synonymous  with the  state designation  of                                                              
"school in crisis."                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  DYSON  pointed  out  that   ["school  in  crisis"]  is  the                                                              
existing  state  name  and  suggested that  [EED]  might  want  to                                                              
change that name.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Number 0688                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR.  LEAL replied  that  [EED] has  not  proposed  [to change  the                                                              
designation name].   He noted that  currently the main  task is to                                                              
try to bring  "these two pieces of legislation  together ... under                                                              
one  system"  and ensure  that  the  state  is following  the  new                                                              
federal laws.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR DYSON  asked, "So the feds  have already made  provision for                                                              
the  existing ...  Title  I,  that it'll  ...  fit  under the  new                                                              
federal [requirements]?  ... What  you've got  to do is  make sure                                                              
the state's [designations]  conform to the new H.R.  1?"  He asked                                                              
why this alignment will take two years.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Number 0730                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. LEAL  noted that  this proposal  [for a  delay] was  initially                                                              
offered to allow  [EED] to implement the [designation]  model that                                                              
the School  Designator Committee determined  to be the  most fair:                                                              
a model  using one-third status  and two-thirds growth.   It would                                                              
take  [EED]  at least  another  year  to  obtain growth  data,  he                                                              
reported; then,  to capture the High School  Graduation Qualifying                                                              
Exam  (HSGQE)   results   from  2004  along   with  data   showing                                                              
graduation rates, the two years were requested.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MR.  LEAL told  members [EED]  is now  trying to  evaluate how  it                                                              
will   make  the   state's  model   fit  with   the  new   federal                                                              
requirements.  He  said, "I'm not a hundred percent  sure - and we                                                              
don't  have  the  direction  yet from  the  federal  government  -                                                              
whether the model  that we have proposed is ... going  to fit with                                                              
the  federal  model."   He  offered  that  his inclination  is  to                                                              
develop the  best possible  model, rather  than hurry  the process                                                              
along.                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
Number 0819                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  STEVENS  noted his  support  for  the  delay.   He                                                              
asked, "What  is the point of  the performance designations?   And                                                              
if a school,  say, is declared  'in crisis,' what does  that mean?                                                              
And  what are  the teeth  in this  that  would cause  a school  in                                                              
crisis to  change?"   Taking money  away from  a school  in crisis                                                              
will  obviously not  help it  improve,  he offered.   Likewise,  a                                                              
school that  has done  a superior job  shouldn't be  penalized for                                                              
that good job.   He inquired how the state will  ensure that these                                                              
[designations] will work.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
Number 0875                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
DR.  McLAIN   replied  that  [EED]   wants  to  use   the  federal                                                              
allowances  in  the  new  law to  combine  with  other  money  and                                                              
supports  provided  at the  state  level.   The  specific  federal                                                              
dollars,  sanctions,  and  rewards  are  varied, he  noted.    For                                                              
example,  one  specific  federal   provision  pertains  to  school                                                              
improvement  sites; it  calls for  the  district to  set aside  20                                                              
percent  of its  Title I  funds for  two activities:   to  provide                                                              
transportation to  students who attend  the failing school  and to                                                              
provide supplemental services.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
DR. McLAIN pointed  out that Dr. Susan Sclafani,  Counselor to the                                                              
U.S. Secretary  of Education,  had addressed  this provision  with                                                              
EED  personnel   during   her  recent  visit   to  Juneau;   she'd                                                              
recognized   that   this   provision    for   transportation   and                                                              
supplemental services  was designed with  Lower 48 urban  areas in                                                              
mind.  These  urban areas are  places where students could  get on                                                              
a bus  to go  to another school;  there might  be, for  example, a                                                              
Sylvan [learning]  center or some  tutors nearby to  send students                                                              
to.    He indicated  that  both  EED personnel  and  Dr.  Sclafani                                                              
acknowledge  that more  work needs  to be  done at  the state  and                                                              
federal  levels to  address the  ramifications  of this  provision                                                              
for isolated communities  and schools for which  transportation to                                                              
another place is not feasible.  He said:                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
     That's  the kind  of detail  that  we need  to work  out                                                                   
     with  them, but  that is  the  kind of  answer that  the                                                                   
     feds  have in  terms of  additional  dollars that  could                                                                   
     not  just  be  spent  for "business  as  usual."    [The                                                                   
     funds]  must   be  targeted   for  those  sort   of  ...                                                                   
     purposes.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
Number 0971                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
DR. McLAIN  expressed his  understanding  that [EED] must  define,                                                              
by the end  of the summer, the  criteria for being on  the list of                                                              
providers for  supplemental services.   He  noted that  Alaska and                                                              
other  states are  in  conversation with  the  U.S. Department  of                                                              
Education because this subject is new to them.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
DR.  McLAIN acknowledged  some  concern  on EED's  part  regarding                                                              
what it  means to  allow someone  to be on  the list of  providers                                                              
for supplemental services.   For example, if a Mr.  Jones wants to                                                              
be  a tutor,  [EED] has  to decide:    What are  the criteria  for                                                              
allowing  him to  be on  that list?   What  is [EED's]  liability?                                                              
What does  it mean  for someone to  be on that  list?   Dr. McLain                                                              
stated  that  if  Mr. Jones  provides  supplemental  services  but                                                              
shows no  progress in  two years'  time, he  can be dropped  [from                                                              
the  list  of  providers];  however,  [EED]  must  define  how  to                                                              
determine  what adequate  progress  is.   These are  the kinds  of                                                              
details [EED]  is working on with  other states to ensure  it is a                                                              
solid piece, he added.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
Number 1041                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
DR. McLAIN continued:                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
     We're  hoping  ...  the budget  that  was  proposed  had                                                                   
     additional  state dollars  that we  were asking to  have                                                                   
     put into  place:   the $2-million  fund to provide  some                                                                   
     targeted instruction  and targeted support for  the low-                                                                   
     performing  schools;  and  then $2  million,  a  request                                                                   
      that the administration had for a fund, for the high-                                                                     
     performing [schools].                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
     If there's  a model  out there  that is indeed  working,                                                                   
     we  want to  support  that  and perhaps  use  that as  a                                                                   
     model  for  other  schools that  might  find  themselves                                                                   
     serving  similar [populations].    That's  still in  our                                                                   
     request, but  that would be  the kind of a  state dollar                                                                   
     that would accompany [the federal funds].                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
DR.  McLAIN said  in  addition to  the  20 percent  set-aside,  as                                                              
[school  improvement  sites]  pass  into their  third  and  fourth                                                              
years  of the plan,  the federal  government  allows the state  to                                                              
become increasingly  directive.  Instead of just  giving the money                                                              
over, the  state can  become more restrictive  about what  is done                                                              
with that  money.   In any case,  school [improvement  sites] will                                                              
have to  show their  programs are  based on  a proven  methodology                                                              
and research.  He said:                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
     What we  have to  do, between now  and the beginning  of                                                                   
     this next year,  is set up what's our criteria.   How do                                                                   
     we define that?   So we've got a lot of  rulemaking that                                                                   
     we  have  to   do  internally  [and]  get   out  to  the                                                                   
     districts.   And  that's,  again, to  come  back to  the                                                                   
     question  of why  are  we looking  for  the  delay.   We                                                                   
     think those  are pretty critical  questions and  we want                                                                   
     to be able to turn our attention to that.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
Number 1122                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  STEVENS  asked whether  the  20 percent  set-aside                                                              
was new  federal money or  money taken  from some other  school or                                                              
district.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
DR.  McLAIN indicated  EED  has  only seen  general,  large-budget                                                              
categories from the  federal government, and wants  to ensure that                                                              
the  [20 percent  set-aside  is  new money].    He  said when  Dr.                                                              
Sclafani met  with EED  personnel to discuss  Title I  monies, EED                                                              
was told an  additional approximately $8.5 million  [is being made                                                              
available].   He  said he'd  be  more comfortable  after he'd  had                                                              
time for more careful review.                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
DR. McLAIN  expressed his understanding  that the  intended source                                                              
of the  20 percent  set-aside is  new money.   School  improvement                                                              
sites  that fail  to  improve  will experience  increased  control                                                              
over [all Title  I funds, not just the 20 percent  set-aside].  He                                                              
said [EED  personnel] have  discussed with  federal personnel  the                                                              
issue   of   district-level   decisions    about   many   of   the                                                              
instructional  resources at a  particular site.   That  site might                                                              
not  have direct  control  over  such  decisions as  staffing  and                                                              
other resources.   He noted that  this is a very  important issue.                                                              
Both he and Mr.  Leal have been site and  district administrators;                                                              
he  stated, "We  want to  make sure  that we've  got that  process                                                              
well in hand  before we start going out with  ... chipped-in-stone                                                              
rules."                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Number 1246                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR   DYSON   offered   his   understanding   of   the   federal                                                              
regulations:   that  the 20  percent  comes out  of that  school's                                                              
portion [of  Title I  monies] if it  doesn't make improvements  by                                                              
the  end of  the second  or third  year;  this 20  percent can  be                                                              
available to the parents who are seeking it.  He added:                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
     When we  got into this business  ... two or  three years                                                                   
     ago, our  present governor  said if the schools  finally                                                                   
     don't  make enough  improvement  and  show that  they're                                                                   
     making  progress, ...  we're  going to  take them  over.                                                                   
     Now,  both he and  ... Commissioner  Holloway, I  think,                                                                   
     have  ... moved  off of  that strong  [of] a  statement,                                                                   
     and  I'd ask  both of  them if  they were  ... going  to                                                                   
     start  the  state-operated  schools  again  or  whatever                                                                   
     else.   But  I think  your  question is,  Representative                                                                   
     Stevens, right on the mark.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  DYSON  added  that  his  reading  of  the  federal  "stuff"                                                              
indicates  to him  that  in the  third  and fourth  years  without                                                              
improvement, the staff must be changed.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Number 1307                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
DR. McLAIN  responded that  EED wants to  provide a  clear summary                                                              
sheet of  those consequences to  the [House Health,  Education and                                                              
Social Services  Standing Committee].   He noted that  state Title                                                              
I staff are working  on that; he apologized for not  being able to                                                              
provide  it  today.    He  questioned   which  part  of  a  school                                                              
district's Title  I funds are considered  for the 20  percent set-                                                              
aside  - the district's  Title I  funds or  the individual  site's                                                              
Title I funds.   He offered that he'd heard the  response to be 20                                                              
percent  of the  district's allocation,  a  much larger  sum.   He                                                              
concluded that  this information  is what he  hopes to  provide in                                                              
the summary sheet.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
Number 1344                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  COGHILL  asked about  the  percentages of  schools                                                              
falling into each  of the four [state-designated]  categories.  He                                                              
offered his  opinion that statute  already mandates  the reporting                                                              
of this  information, even  if [sanctions]  are not yet  enforced.                                                              
He  also  asked how  the  state  will dovetail  with  the  federal                                                              
rules.  For example,  is the state's premise even  the same as the                                                              
federal  government's?     He  noted  his  impression   from  [Dr.                                                              
Sclafani's presentation]  that the  state has a different  premise                                                              
from the federal government's.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
Number 1389                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. LEAL  responded  that [EED]  does not have  breakdowns  of the                                                              
percentages  of schools  in the  four categories  because it  does                                                              
not yet have the growth data.  He said:                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
     The  bigger  question  for  us right  now  is  ...  your                                                                   
     second  question, and  that  is, how  is  this going  to                                                                   
     dovetail with  the federal requirement?  Because  if ...                                                                   
     the  federal requirement  is to  designate schools  that                                                                   
     haven't made  adequate yearly progress, ... that  is, in                                                                   
     effect,    designating   the    bottom   of   the    ...                                                                   
     [designation]  system.     It  doesn't  require   us  to                                                                   
     designate  ... the other  areas. ...  If we [don't]  get                                                                   
     the  delay,   we  would  be   working  just   with  this                                                                   
     "adequate  yearly  progress"  definition -  which  isn't                                                                   
     what  the [designator]  committee  really  wants to  do,                                                                   
     but it might be what we have to do.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
Number 1440                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  COGHILL observed  that the  department would  have                                                              
to  make  a  decision  about  this  matter;  he  added  that  [the                                                              
legislature]  would work  with  EED.   This  decision pertains  to                                                              
using the  federal designation  [of school  improvement sites]  as                                                              
Alaska's  lowest  designation.   He  queried,  "Is that  ...  what                                                              
you're thinking?"                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
MR. LEAL replied:                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
     The  definition  is  a  state  definition;  it's  not  a                                                                   
     national  definition.  And  ... there's pretty  specific                                                                   
     guidelines  on what adequate  yearly progress would  be.                                                                   
     And ... once  we set ... that bar, based  on this year's                                                                   
     test results,  then we also  have to set goals  for each                                                                   
     subgroup ...  to achieve ...  AYP, [which] is  ... based                                                                   
     on the percentage  of students who are proficient.   And                                                                   
     so once we  ... find out where that bar  is according to                                                                   
     the  federal definition,  then we  need to  go back  and                                                                   
     set goals  to get ... each  school and each  subgroup to                                                                   
     achieve  a  hundred  percent   [proficiency]  within  12                                                                   
     years.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Number 1490                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  COGHILL  asked   whether  the  growth  and  status                                                              
[scores]  being used  as designations  would  be considered  valid                                                              
criteria by [DOE].                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
MR.  LEAL replied,  "It  doesn't seem  so."   He  offered that  in                                                              
conversations  as recent as  yesterday, [DOE] personnel  indicated                                                              
that to all appearances,  the federal AYP definition  would be the                                                              
one  EED must  use for  the bottom  [level of  designations].   He                                                              
offered  that  he foresaw  some  flexibility  for EED  to  include                                                              
other, higher categories of designations.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  COGHILL  asked  if  this  issue  would  present  a                                                              
regulatory  problem to  EED.  He  surmised that  the statutes  are                                                              
broad enough, but then questioned whether, indeed, they are.                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Number 1550                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR.  LEAL replied  that [EED]  is  currently drafting  regulations                                                              
for both  outcomes.   For the outcome  in which  the delay  is not                                                              
granted,  draft  regulations  are  about 85  percent  written  for                                                              
designating schools  based only on status.   He noted that  EED is                                                              
also  drafting  regulations  to  address  AYP.  "We're  struggling                                                              
right now ... to get this thing going," he concluded.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
Number 1590                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE COGHILL  asked Mr. Leal  for his impression  of the                                                              
federal timeline [for implementing the designations].                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MR. LEAL  replied that  the direction  [from  the federal  DOE] is                                                              
for [EED]  to implement the law;  [DOE] will tell the  state which                                                              
parts of  the state's implementation  don't fit the  guidelines as                                                              
they  are being  written.   He  acknowledged,  "It's  not a  great                                                              
process."  He added:                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
     I  think  that   the  federal  government  is   kind  of                                                                   
     struggling  with   the  same  thing  this   [designator]                                                                   
     committee is -  and that is, that they want  this ... to                                                                   
     move ahead,  and they  don't want it  to ... get  bogged                                                                   
     down in  the regulatory process.   ... It's  a difficult                                                                   
     situation for us to try to guess what it means.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE COGHILL said, "Maybe we shouldn't amend this."                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Number 1644                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
DR. McLAIN observed  for the committee that Mr. Leal  is in daily,                                                              
even hourly,  conversations with  [DOE].  This  is a  good example                                                              
of why EED is requesting the [delay].  He continued:                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
     We really  want to  keep ourselves  going down this  one                                                                   
     path,   and    there's   constant   flux.       If   ...                                                                   
     Representative  Coghill  had  asked us  questions  about                                                                   
     the status and  growth four days or so ago,  we probably                                                                   
     would  have answered  somewhat differently.   This  took                                                                   
     us ...  by surprise  when the  feds started to  indicate                                                                   
     that  that might  not be  the way.   I give  that as  an                                                                   
     example just  of how fluid  right now, I think,  some of                                                                   
     the decision making is ... over there.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Number 1676                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE CISSNA  remarked that  [Alaska] is still  left with                                                              
the  problem faced  by some  schools  - including  schools in  her                                                              
district  - that  effectually have  two  kinds of  schools in  the                                                              
same  building.    The  concern  is that  these  schools  will  be                                                              
"lumped  into   the  same   category."     She  mentioned   a  big                                                              
responsibility   placed    on   the   students,    teachers,   and                                                              
administration    [as   the    designations   are    established].                                                              
Furthermore, there  is a large responsibility for  legislators; as                                                              
in any  business, there  must be  commitment  from the people  who                                                              
fund [the  enterprise].   She added, "It  doesn't matter  what the                                                              
feds say  they're going to do;  in the end, ultimately,  we're the                                                              
one  who  will make  the  final  decision.  ...  Do we  have  that                                                              
commitment?"                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Number 1762                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR DYSON responded:                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
     [We]  have  a  constitutional   responsibility  in  this                                                                   
     state  ...  for education  and  what  that means.    And                                                                   
     whether  or not  money  is  the answer  or  part of  the                                                                   
     answer is  a question for a  lot of debate that  we have                                                                   
     to do in the future.  And your point's well taken.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Number 1780                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  KOHRING  noted  his  philosophical  difference  of                                                              
opinion   by  questioning   whether  more   money  for   education                                                              
necessarily  equates to  better  education.   He acknowledged  the                                                              
common goal  of a "good, solid  education for our  kids"; however,                                                              
he pointed  out his belief that  more money for public  schools is                                                              
not necessarily  the answer.   Alternatives  in education  such as                                                              
promoting correspondence  studies need to be explored.   He added,                                                              
"I'm not trying to  get on a high horse here, ...  but I just felt                                                              
a need to go down  this road a little bit to keep  the issue alive                                                              
of alternatives."                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  KOHRING  pointed  out  a voucher  bill  that  he'd                                                              
sponsored   a  few   years  ago   that  "didn't   get  very   far,                                                              
unfortunately."   Mentioning property tax credits  and funding for                                                              
correspondence  study, such as  through Alyeska Central  [School],                                                              
he said those kinds  of programs will go a long  way toward making                                                              
education  the  best   it  can  be.    He  concluded,   "I  really                                                              
appreciate where  you're coming from, [Representative  Cissna].  I                                                              
think we have the  same ultimate goals.  It's just  [that] we have                                                              
a different path that we wish to travel."                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
Number 1837                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE   STEVENS  said   it  will   be  a  disservice   if                                                              
additional time  isn't taken.   He observed that  the designations                                                              
are  based  on limited  information  -  the tests  students  take,                                                              
which  determine  whether  a  school  is  deemed  "in  crisis"  or                                                              
"distinguished."   Although  primarily  the norm-referenced  tests                                                              
and dropout rates  are used, so many other things  enter into what                                                              
makes  a good  school,  such as  a music  program  or an  athletic                                                              
program.  He  drew attention to the additional  indicators [listed                                                              
on the sample report  card].  He queried, "Are  those things going                                                              
to be  ... taken into  account when you  actually give  the report                                                              
card on the school?   It'll go beyond that issue  of simply making                                                              
a designation,  but it'll also,  I assume, comment on  those other                                                              
elements of what makes a good school."                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
Number 1880                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. LEAL  replied that  [EED's]  intent is to  report those  other                                                              
school-quality indicators  as part of the school report  card.  He                                                              
pointed out that  there is a significant amount  of discussion and                                                              
debate within the  [designator] committee of trying  to find other                                                              
elements  on which  [EED] can collect  reliable  data to put  into                                                              
the designation portion.   He said, "But understand  that in order                                                              
to  keep  the  two  systems compatible,  that  would  only  be  to                                                              
identify  the higher  end of the  designation."   This is  another                                                              
area in  which the  [designator] committee's  work is  unfinished,                                                              
he concluded.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Number 1908                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE   STEVENS   asked   for  examples   of   additional                                                              
indicators.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR.  LEAL  offered  that  one  indicator   that  the  [designator]                                                              
committee has  discussed is some  measure of parent  and community                                                              
involvement;  there  is  "significant  pressure"  from  the  State                                                              
Board of  Education [and Early Development]  to do this.   "Again,                                                              
it's a  delicate path  ... because  we cannot,  under the  federal                                                              
law,  ... say  that a  school that  has  a high  degree of  parent                                                              
involvement  and  ...  very  low   test  scores  or  doesn't  make                                                              
adequate  yearly  progress  is ...  a  distinguished  school,"  he                                                              
said.    Test   scores  will  remain  the  driving   force.    The                                                              
[designator]  committee also wants  to "flesh  out the  higher ...                                                              
grades of high  school" by looking at SAT  [Scholastic Achievement                                                              
Test]  scores,  a  graduate  survey, or  something  to  "take  the                                                              
[designation] piece  all the way  to its ... logical  conclusion,"                                                              
he noted.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
Number 1981                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
DEE  HUBBARD,  Parent Teacher  Association  (PTA)  Representative,                                                              
School Designator  Committee, testified  via teleconference.   She                                                              
said, "Now  you can see  ... the amount  of fun we've  been having                                                              
over  the past  ... two  years in  dealing  with this  situation."                                                              
She  pointed  out   that  at  the  last  meeting   of  the  School                                                              
Designator   Committee,  members   received  a  15-page   document                                                              
analyzing the  new, federal education  bill and addressing  issues                                                              
the [designator] committee needs to revisit.  She said:                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
     I can't  emphasize enough  why we need  this delay.   We                                                                   
     have really  been working hard; this is probably  one of                                                                   
     the  more "brain  drain"  committees  I have  ever  been                                                                   
     on....   We've tried to  get good measurements,  but our                                                                   
     problem  has been that  we want  to measure things  that                                                                   
     ... we're unable  to measure.  It's just  the same thing                                                                   
     that [Mr.  Leal] is  talking about  with the ...  parent                                                                   
     and community  involvement -  how can you measure  that?                                                                   
     So we've been having some problems.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
     But  we've been  working hard  at ...  trying to  define                                                                   
     measurements  that  will  be able  to  be  statistically                                                                   
     viewed.   Anything  that you  can do to  move this  bill                                                                   
     along  - to give  us that  extra ...  two years of  work                                                                   
     that  we really need  - I  would definitely  appreciate.                                                                   
     ... We  could go ahead  and make designations,  but they                                                                   
      wouldn't be very valuable. ... With that, you would                                                                       
     lose the credibility of the whole system.  So I would                                                                      
      appreciate this bill getting legs and running a four-                                                                     
     minute mile as soon as possible.  Thank you again, Mr.                                                                     
     Chairman.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR DYSON thanked  Ms. Hubbard for her work  on the [designator]                                                              
committee.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Number 2090                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
LARRY   WIGET,   Ph.D.,  Executive   Director,   Public   Affairs,                                                              
Anchorage  School  District,  testified via  teleconference.    He                                                              
noted that  he had  provided written  testimony and [an  Anchorage                                                              
School  District  (ASD)] resolution  in  support  of delaying  the                                                              
school  designations.      He  echoed  the   sentiment  of   other                                                              
witnesses'  support of  the delay.    The ASD  is working  closely                                                              
with  [EED],  he noted,  and  has  representatives on  the  School                                                              
Designator Committee.   "We're working ... also with  the feds and                                                              
other  organizations  around the  state  ...  and country  to  get                                                              
further  clarification on  the true  impact of  the No Child  Left                                                              
Behind  bill," he  said.   "We are  very, very  supportive of  the                                                              
delay [for] all the reasons that have been [voiced] by others."                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
Number 2121                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR DYSON  began discussion  of what  would become Amendment  3.                                                              
He offered  his intention  to amend  the delay  date to  17 months                                                              
from now,  instead of 29  months from now  - delaying it  one year                                                              
instead of  two.   He asked  what impact  such an amendment  would                                                              
have on the process.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
DR. WIGET  replied that the  idea of status  sticks in his  mind -                                                              
what "we"  know about students  now, versus what  information will                                                              
be  available two  years  from now.    More testing  will  provide                                                              
better data.   He  added that it  will take  time to work  through                                                              
the  details  in  the  ESEA.     His  response  and  that  of  the                                                              
[Anchorage] School  Board is  to move the  date more  in alignment                                                              
with the [HSGQE], he concluded.                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
Number 2185                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  DYSON offered  Dr. McLain  and Mr. Leal  an opportunity  to                                                              
comment on his proposed amendment.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
DR. MCLAIN  said he would recommend  the 2004 date - not  just for                                                              
alignment  with the  HSGQE, but  to allow  alignment with  federal                                                              
[dates].   The 2004  date allows  [EED] to  obtain answers  to the                                                              
questions being asked  about parent involvement, for  example.  He                                                              
offered that  these types  of questions are  being asked  by other                                                              
states.  He said:                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
     It's a recommendation  of the national PTA  as well. ...                                                                   
     I suspect  that there  will be  a lot of  statisticians,                                                                   
     psychometricians  kind[s]  of people,  [and]  committees                                                                   
     ...   that'll  be   working   on  this.   ...  I   would                                                                   
     respectfully  ask  that  you  allow us  that  amount  of                                                                   
     time.   This  is a  very important  piece,  and I  think                                                                   
     that what we  gain in terms of doing it  right ... makes                                                                   
     that  two-year [delay]  valuable.  We  will continue  on                                                                   
     with  the federal pieces.   We  will have  consequences.                                                                   
     It is very public; people know about this process now.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Number 2240                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. LEAL  offered that  a shorter  timeline would  force [EED]  to                                                              
abandon  the [designator]  committee  recommendation earlier  than                                                              
it  might  have  to.   He  indicated  his  uncertainty  about  the                                                              
impacts of  the federal  legislation.  He  said, "They  talk about                                                              
flexibility,  and I  don't know  if we're  going to  be given  the                                                              
flexibility  to implement  the system  ...  that the  [designator]                                                              
committee ... has  proposed."  Compressing the  timeline will make                                                              
it  more   necessary  for  [EED]   to  abandon  the   [designator]                                                              
committee recommendation  and simply go ahead with  what will work                                                              
with the  ESEA, rather than petitioning  the federal DOE  to grant                                                              
a waiver or accept Alaska's system.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
Number 2279                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE CISSNA  asked Chair Dyson why he wants  to make the                                                              
delay shorter.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  DYSON replied,  "After  I make  the  amendment, we'll  have                                                              
that discussion."                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Number 2301                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  DYSON moved  to adopt  [Amendment 3],  on page  2, line  5,                                                              
where  it says,  "Beginning [in]  September 2004",  to change  the                                                          
year to  "2003"; and on  page 2, line  12, where it  says "January                                                      
1, 2005", to change the year to "2004".                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE JOULE and REPRESENTATIVE CISSNA objected.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
Number 2327                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR DYSON explained:                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
     There's  three or  four  things that  bother  me....   I                                                                   
     have a  theory ... -  and it's based  upon my six  years                                                                   
     here and six  years on the legislative body  of the city                                                                   
     where I  live - that  public policymakers never,  never,                                                                   
     never,  never do  the  right thing  at  the right  time.                                                                   
     And  the rare  times that  we  have some  idea what  the                                                                   
     right  thing is,  we  either can't  get  it through  the                                                                   
     process  or can't  get  the public  support  to have  it                                                                   
     happen.   So  then  we're  always doing  something  less                                                                   
     than  the best  thing  at far  less  than the  opportune                                                                   
     time,  and continue  delaying getting  the results  from                                                                   
     what you want.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
     When we  were having the  debate on ... the  high-stakes                                                                   
     tests here,  ... it was heated  and [there was]  a great                                                                   
     deal  of  discussion  about  it.   And  three  different                                                                   
     teachers  ...   who  taught  here  in  ...   Juneau  ...                                                                   
     collared  me at one  time or  another during those  days                                                                   
     and  weeks that  that was  going on.   And  one of  them                                                                   
     said,  "This   is  the  healthiest  thing   that's  ever                                                                   
     happened ...  in ... ten or  twelve years....   You guys                                                                   
     are  firing  a  cannon  shot   across  the  bow  of  the                                                                   
     educational  establishment, and  the kids  are all  of a                                                                   
     sudden straightening  up and saying, 'Oops  - somebody's                                                                   
     going to test  me here ... I'm going to have  to do more                                                                   
     than just have 12 years of seat time....'"                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
TAPE 02-18, SIDE B                                                                                                              
Number 2371                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR DYSON continued:                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
     The teachers  said, "And it's  doing the same  thing for                                                                   
     us.   All  of  a  sudden, we  as  a faculty  are  coming                                                                   
     together and  ... working on  making sure that  our kids                                                                   
     are  proficient, because  there's a  test.   And we  all                                                                   
     hope that  ... we  would do  it just out  of a sense  of                                                                   
     professionalism...."                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
     All ...  six of us are going  to face a test  next fall,                                                                   
     and it's  good for  us. ... I  don't think that  another                                                                   
     29 months  from now,  having ...  the [designations]  in                                                                   
     effect -- I  think we're delaying the impact  ... of the                                                                   
     good  that's  wanted  to  be  done  by  the  high-stakes                                                                   
     tests.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
     And  I may  be wrong.   I suspect  most of  you will  be                                                                   
     back  here next  ... year,  and certainly  if I am,  and                                                                   
     ... it is looking  like ... a year from now  that ... 17                                                                   
     months  is not  enough, and  it needed to  have been  29                                                                   
     months,  then I  will use all  my influence  ... to  get                                                                   
     the ...  date changed  again.  So,  that's, kind  of, my                                                                   
     [reasoning] for  wanting to do it.   And ... I  ... have                                                                   
     neither  the  education,  nor the  experience,  nor  the                                                                   
     exposure of our experts.                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Number 2313                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  JOULE explained  his  reasons  for not  supporting                                                              
[Amendment 3].   He pointed out that some members  did not support                                                              
the high-stakes test  legislation.  He agreed that  the debate was                                                              
heated.   He  said  this  [heated  debate] occurred  because  some                                                              
members  thought that  the original  timelines for  implementation                                                              
were too short.  He said:                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
     It's like  building the second  story of a  house first,                                                                   
     before  you even put  down the  foundation.  And  that's                                                                   
     precisely why  I didn't support the  initial high-stakes                                                                   
     [testing   legislation]  as   it   was  originally   ...                                                                   
     implemented.   So we moved  the test  - backed it  out a                                                                   
     couple  of years.    To me,  that's  a little  bit  more                                                                   
     palatable,  but ... we've already  built the  second ...                                                                   
     floor,  and we're  starting  to build  the first  floor.                                                                   
     ... We  still haven't  laid the  foundation.  And  we're                                                                   
     getting closer.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  JOULE   offered  that  he  has  listened   to  EED                                                              
personnel.   He also  has listened to  witnesses who  testified at                                                              
this  hearing who  have volunteered  their time,  are immersed  in                                                              
education, and understand  what the [state] is faced  with.  These                                                              
volunteers,  a body  of  experts, are  recommending  to the  House                                                              
Health,  Education  and  Social  Services  Standing  Committee  to                                                              
delay the designation.  He said:                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
     I would adamantly  argue that we keep  the [designation]                                                                   
     with the original  date [provided in HB 352].   ... I do                                                                   
     think   we  need  to   ...  finish   laying  down   this                                                                   
     foundation,  because we do  need to have  that ...  as a                                                                   
     complete  package, where there's  the [designation]  and                                                                   
     the high  school qualifying exit  exam....  So,  I would                                                                   
     be speaking against the amendment.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Number 2225                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  STEVENS noted his  appreciation for  Chair Dyson's                                                              
"greater  experience   and  wisdom"  in  these  matters   and  his                                                              
willingness  to revisit  the delay  next  year.   He asked,  "What                                                              
will  the department  do differently  if  they are  faced with  17                                                              
months as  compared to what  they will do  if they are  faced with                                                              
29 months?   And I  think that's an  important thing to  know what                                                              
steps they will take and how they will be impacted by that."                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Number 2181                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
DR. McLAIN  said the federal bill  with which [EED] is  seeking to                                                              
align has deadlines that correlate with the 2004 date.  He said:                                                                
                                                                                                                                
     My general  goal would be to  allow us the kind  of time                                                                   
     to  do exactly  the sort  of  negotiations and  friendly                                                                   
     arm-twisting  that Mr.  Leal made reference  to....   We                                                                   
     would  still,   between  now  and  2004,   be  following                                                                   
     through with  the Title I  ... school improvement  sites                                                                   
     and  working   on  developing  those   consequences  and                                                                   
     supports.   ...  We   will  ...  be   refining  -   very                                                                   
     specifically   and  immediately   -   the  "in   crisis"                                                                   
     alignment with  the feds' ... "school  improvement site"                                                                   
     criteria.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
     That  would be  our first piece  - and  then working  to                                                                   
     see what  kind of  flexibility we can  get out  of them,                                                                   
     so that  we can make the rest  of the system as  much of                                                                   
     what  Alaskans  would  like  to see.  ...  I  really  do                                                                   
     appreciate   Representative   Joule's   comment;   these                                                                   
     people ...  give up ...  a lot of ...  time.  I  want to                                                                   
     give  them  the  chance  to be  able  to  complete  this                                                                   
     process.  We have a lot of ownership.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Number 2115                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. LEAL  noted that the major  change without the delay  would be                                                              
that  the  [designator  committee]   would  probably  abandon  its                                                              
efforts  to create  a model that  uses two-thirds  growth,  and it                                                              
would proceed  with its  best reading  of the federal  guidelines,                                                              
without assuming any flexibility from [the federal DOE].                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE STEVENS  asked what would  be lost in  that process                                                              
-  as far  as effort  and time  for the  department -  if it  were                                                              
looked at  in 17  months, with the  option of  extending it  to 29                                                              
months.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Number 2066                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. LEAL  acknowledged that he  is new to  [EED], and this  is his                                                              
first  time  following  legislation  through [the  process].    He                                                              
indicated he might  have a better perspective next  year.  He said                                                              
it has  taken a  considerable amount  of his  time to prepare  for                                                              
the various hearings.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR DYSON  offered that he'd heard  Mr. Leal and Dr.  McLain say                                                              
that  [EED]  is working  to  include  the improvement  piece;  one                                                              
result of  the proposed  17-month delay  could be the  abandonment                                                              
of the  [designator] committee's  work to  have two-thirds  of the                                                              
[designation]  be   based  on  improvement.    "Did   I  hear  you                                                              
correctly?" he asked.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MR. LEAL replied yes.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
Number 1990                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR DYSON  acknowledged that  he wasn't nearly  as close  to the                                                              
[designation] process  as Mr. Leal  and Dr. McLain have  been, but                                                              
offered that he  didn't see that 17 months would  be an inadequate                                                              
amount  of time  for the  [designator] committee  to continue  its                                                              
work.  He remarked,  "Jobs expand ... to fill  the time required."                                                              
He offered  that he  hadn't lobbied  anybody regarding  [Amendment                                                              
3], and  said there  is no  pressure from  him, as  the chair,  to                                                              
pass it.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  DYSON turned  attention to  Representative Joule's  comment                                                              
about  the  foundation  of  education.     He  explained  that  he                                                              
understands the foundation  to be that students  are learning what                                                              
they need to know  in order to [pass the high-stakes  tests].  The                                                              
premise  of the high-stakes  testing,  he said,  is that it  isn't                                                              
testing "a  whole bunch of new  stuff," but is testing  the things                                                              
for  which  there  is  widespread  agreement  among  Alaskans  and                                                              
pedagogical experts.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR DYSON noted  that this isn't new.  He expressed  his opinion                                                              
that the  committee has done  its job and  come up  with something                                                              
reasonable.   The schools  that have  not been preparing  students                                                              
have something  to answer  for, he  concluded.   "We ought  not to                                                              
have  had to  tailor  education  significantly different  at  all,                                                              
just because  the tests are  there," he  said.  "They  should have                                                              
been  the  kinds  of  things that  kids  were  learning  ...  just                                                              
because it was a good school system."                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
Number 1900                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE CISSNA  referred to a conference several  years ago                                                              
at which  teachers presented  the steps  required in teaching  and                                                              
learning different  things at different ages.  She  said that some                                                              
of the lessons being  learned about how people learn  - what steps                                                              
they take  - are new.   She  added, "It's a  huge, huge  bite that                                                              
we're asking  a department and a  state and these schools  to bite                                                              
and accomplish and digest all in one time."                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  CISSNA  noted  that  she has  areas  of  expertise                                                              
where she  feels comfortable,  but isn't an  expert on  the amount                                                              
of  time [the  designation  process] will  take.   Her  publishing                                                              
work is an  indication to her that  a job that might  be perceived                                                              
as a quick one,  for example, never is.  She  offered deference to                                                              
people with  years of  experience in this  field.  She  concluded,                                                              
"It's not  that I don't  believe that ...  your commitment  is not                                                              
sincere, but I'll have to ... respectfully disagree."                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
Number 1803                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  COGHILL  indicated his  concurrence  with some  of                                                              
Chair Dyson's  remarks.   He offered  that the [implementation  of                                                              
school]  designations has  been  a growth  process.   The  Quality                                                              
Schools  initiative has  not occurred  in a  vacuum, he  observed.                                                              
Some  aggressive  deadlines  had  been  set  that  required  "some                                                              
pressure relief."   He offered his  opinion that ease of  the task                                                              
should not  be considered as  a criterion for determining  whether                                                              
something  is the right  thing to  do.   School and/or  curriculum                                                              
reform have  been issues ever since  he can remember,  he offered.                                                              
"If  you  don't have  a  deadline,  the  tension to  do  something                                                              
relaxes," he noted.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  COGHILL expressed  his understanding that  [tasks]                                                              
must be  prioritized for this  to be accomplished.   He  noted his                                                              
preference  for  the  earlier  date  [provided  in  Chair  Dyson's                                                              
amendment]; it  will help in dealing  with the federal  [DOE] more                                                              
aggressively.     He  offered   that  he   believes  the   federal                                                              
government  is   seeking  direction   from  the  states;   a  more                                                              
aggressive date will  put [DOE] "on notice" as well.   He conveyed                                                              
his understanding  that Alaska is  not behind most states,  but is                                                              
"well in the pack."                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
DR. McLAIN said, "We're ahead of many states."                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR DYSON offered, "And that's to your credit."                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE COGHILL  noted his  appreciation for this,  and his                                                              
goal to  not relax [in  the state's efforts].   He spoke  in favor                                                              
of Chair Dyson's amendment.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Number 1694                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  STEVENS noted that  he did  not take exception  to                                                              
[Amendment 3].   He asked Chair  Dyson what criteria he  would use                                                              
to reconsider extending the deadline to 29 months.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR DYSON indicated  that if the federal [DOE]  keeps moving the                                                              
target, that  would be  a legitimate reason  to extend  the delay.                                                              
He offered  that he would be  impressed by testimony  from members                                                              
of the  designator committee  that not  enough time was  available                                                              
to accomplish an excellent job.                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
Number 1600                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
A  roll call  vote  was taken.   Representatives  Dyson,  Coghill,                                                              
Stevens,  and Kohring voted  for [Amendment  3].   Representatives                                                              
Cissna,  Joule  voted against  it.    Therefore, Amendment  3  was                                                              
adopted by a vote of 4-2.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
Number 1590                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  JOULE  moved  to   report  CSHB  352  [HB  352  as                                                              
amended]  out of  committee  with individual  recommendations  and                                                              
the accompanying  fiscal notes.   There  being no objection,  CSHB                                                              
352(HES) was moved  out of the House Health,  Education and Social                                                              
Services Standing Committee.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
HB 309-INTERSTATE PLACEMENT OF CHILDREN                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  DYSON announced  the final  order of business  to be  HOUSE                                                              
BILL  NO. 309,  "An  Act relating  to  the Interstate  Compact  on                                                              
Placement  of Children."    [Before the  committee,  adopted as  a                                                              
work draft on  2/05/02, was a proposed committee  substitute (CS),                                                              
Version F.]                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
TAPE 02-19, SIDE A                                                                                                              
Number 0001                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR DYSON  called for  an at-ease  at 4:13 p.m.   He  called the                                                              
meeting back to order at 4:23 p.m.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
Number 0075                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
SUE WRIGHT,  Staff to Representative  Mike Chenault,  Alaska State                                                              
Legislature,   offered   to   answer  questions   on   behalf   of                                                              
Representative Chenault, sponsor of HB 309.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  DYSON  observed  that  a  major  issue  before  members  is                                                              
whether  the  proposed changes  to  statute  contained  in HB  309                                                              
cause  the state  to  be out  of  compliance  with the  Interstate                                                              
Compact  on  the Placement  of  Children  (ICPC).   He  asked  Ms.                                                              
Wright to address this matter.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MS.  WRIGHT replied,  "I  don't  believe that  it  does, in  fact,                                                              
place us  outside the compact."   She cited AS  47.70.010, Article                                                              
III, subsection (d), which reads:                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
          (d) The child shall not be sent, brought, or                                                                          
     caused to  be sent or  brought into the receiving  state                                                                   
     until   the  appropriate  public   authorities  in   the                                                                   
     receiving  state shall  notify  the sending  agency,  in                                                                   
     writing,  to  the  effect that  the  proposed  placement                                                                   
     does not appear  to be contrary to the interests  of the                                                                   
     child.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MS.  WRIGHT said,  "This particular  piece of  legislation was  an                                                              
event-driven  piece of legislation  until the  time that  we began                                                              
to get  feedback from  other sources  that this  is a  repetitive,                                                              
systemic  problem within  the ...  division."   She reported  that                                                              
one child's case  involves a lack of documentation:   there are no                                                              
court  orders or medical  records  - no authority  for the  foster                                                              
parent  to   have  this   child.     This  family  has   contacted                                                              
Representative  Chenault's office  and  will reluctantly  testify,                                                              
if necessary, but  is concerned about reprisals.   Ms. Wright said                                                              
Alaska  requires more  [documentation] to  transfer an  automobile                                                              
from state to state  than it does to transfer a  child.  "There is                                                              
very little or no accountability," she added.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Number 0294                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MS.  WRIGHT  referenced   a  position  paper  from   the  Evan  B.                                                              
Donaldson  Adoption Institute  that outlines  a problem with  ICPC                                                              
enforcement.    She  explained  that the  courts  have  tended  to                                                              
proceed in  one of  three ways when  a violation  of the  ICPC has                                                              
occurred.  She said:                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
     They  disregard  the ICPC  altogether  ... and  grant  a                                                                   
     petition to  either have a  child stay in the  receiving                                                                   
     state; or  they deny the petition  to adopt or  have the                                                                   
     child  stay  in  the  receiving  state;  or  they  grant                                                                   
     retroactive  compliance.    Now, that  involves  another                                                                   
     state  agency.   And generally  speaking, almost  always                                                                   
     there's  ...  a  court  system   involved  in  the  ICPC                                                                   
     transfers   of  children,   [and]  possibly  a   private                                                                   
     adoption agency.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MS.  WRIGHT  emphasized  that  there  should  always  be  a  court                                                              
involved that  allows the transfer  of a  child from one  state to                                                              
another.    House  Bill  309  requires  that  certain  copies  [of                                                              
documents]  accompany  the  child, and  creates  consequences  for                                                              
[failure to  comply].  For  example, no documentation  accompanied                                                              
the  child  she'd mentioned  previously;  Arizona  [the  receiving                                                              
state] was  not contacted until  the day  or day before  the child                                                              
was  transferred, and  this was  after  a court  proceeding.   She                                                              
said  House  Bill   309  creates  consequences  for   [failure  to                                                              
comply].    this is what  [HB 309] seeks  to stop.  "This  isn't a                                                              
department vendetta,"  she said.   The rights of the  children are                                                              
being forgotten in  this matter; if a child is  transferred out of                                                              
the state for any reason, documents should accompany that child.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
Number 0475                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MS.  WRIGHT  reiterated   that  there  is  a  minimum   amount  of                                                              
documentation  that  should transfer  between  states;  currently,                                                              
this  doesn't necessarily  happen  until a  child  is in  transit.                                                              
This  is not  an isolated  incident, but  a repetitive  one.   She                                                              
added, "If  necessary, we can string  a hundred foster  parents in                                                              
here to tell you.  I'd hate to waste the committee's time."                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR DYSON  returned to the question  of whether this  bill takes                                                              
the state outside the ICPC agreement.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MS.  WRIGHT  replied  with  her   understanding  that  [the  ICPC]                                                              
includes allowances  for each state  to have individual  violation                                                              
consequences.    The issues  raised  by  the Secretariat  [to  the                                                              
Association  of Administrators  of the Interstate  Compact  on the                                                              
Placement of Children]  are "issues that are already  in existence                                                              
in  the  compact;  they're  not  issues  that  we're  bringing  up                                                              
today," she said.   She offered her belief that  [Alaska] would be                                                              
in  compliance  with  the  ICPC.     She  continued,  "We  haven't                                                              
received  anything from  the  department that  says  we're not  in                                                              
compliance legally."                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
Number 0561                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
THERESA   TANOURY,  Director,   Division  of   Family  and   Youth                                                              
Services,  Department of  Health and  Social Services,  referenced                                                              
comments  from  the  secretariat  dated  February  7.    She  drew                                                              
attention  to [page  1]  line  10 of  the  bill, which  says  "the                                                              
department  may   not  accept  placement   of  the   child  unless                                                              
documentation  requested under  Article III(c)  of the compact  is                                                              
supplied  in  the  form  of certified  copies."    This  does  not                                                              
specify what "certified  copies" means, she noted.   It could mean                                                              
that the  author of a  document needs to  certify it, or  that the                                                              
division certifies  that all the documents are real.   Either way,                                                              
this certification would cause a delay.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MS. TANOURY  added that  every [document]  packet includes  a 100A                                                              
form,  the  contract   between  the  states  for   a  child  being                                                              
transferred  between  those  states.    A cover  letter  from  the                                                              
caseworker, a  social summary, and  a court order for  custody are                                                              
also  included in  the packet.   The court  order  is in the  ICPC                                                              
packet, she  said; Alaska uses this  to show the other  state that                                                              
the  child  is in  Alaska's  jurisdiction.    A  financial/medical                                                              
plan, a  copy of  the Title  4(e) eligibility,  and the  case plan                                                              
are included.   Other  supporting documentation  may include  drug                                                              
and  alcohol   assessments,  medical  information,   psychological                                                              
evaluations, and  references, among other things.   She added that                                                              
the department  is typically  not the  author of these  documents;                                                              
they are  submitted by various people.   Either the author  or the                                                              
division would have to certify that they are true copies.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MS. TANOURY  explained that [Section 1  of HB 309] does  not alter                                                              
the  compact, which  is all  in  AS 47.70.010,  but mandates  that                                                              
Alaska cannot accept  a child without the sending  state providing                                                              
certified  copies.   The  language  of "certified  copies"  places                                                              
Alaska outside  the compact,  according to  the secretariat.   She                                                              
read:                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
     Because  the  state  would  be using  language  that  is                                                                   
     different  [from] the  contractual  language that  forms                                                                   
     the   basis  of   the  conduct   by   all  other   party                                                                   
     jurisdictions,  the  state  would be  operating  outside                                                                   
     the compact.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
MS. TANOURY  explained that  Alaska would  have difficulty  asking                                                              
other states to  accept Alaskan children, because  Alaska would be                                                              
entirely  outside  the  compact.   Other  states  don't  have  any                                                              
guarantees of what  Alaska might do, she said.  Alaska  would be a                                                              
"dumping ground" for other states to send children.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
Number 0752                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  DYSON said,  "To this  layman's  ears, that  sounds like  a                                                              
gross overreaction.   And  something in me  wants to  say, 'Picky,                                                              
picky,  picky.'"    He offered  that  this  bill  simply  requires                                                              
paperwork  to   accompany  a  child,   and  there  must   be  some                                                              
confidence that the  paperwork is correct.  He said,  "To say that                                                              
...  disqualifies the  State of  Alaska  from participating  seems                                                              
really [a] petty overreaction, but tell me what I'm missing."                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MS. TANOURY  replied that  the language  that says the  department                                                              
may  not accept  placement of  a child  from another  state is  at                                                              
issue.                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR DYSON interjected, "Without the paper."                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MS. TANOURY added, "Without ... certified copies."                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR DYSON asked:                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
     Who  wants a  piece  of paper  that  you  don't know  is                                                                   
     accurate?  ...  I'm sorry,  I'm  not meaning  to  debate                                                                   
     with you,  but that's all that  I think ...  we're after                                                                   
     here,  is that  ... some way  or another,  we know  that                                                                   
     those are the  right pieces of paper with  the right kid                                                                   
     at the  right time.  ... And  how do  we go about  doing                                                                   
     that?                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  DYSON said he  could see  that sending  originals would  be                                                              
inappropriate,  but how does  someone know it  isn't a  forgery or                                                              
the wrong or outdated paper?                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MS.  TANOURY responded  that  because [DFYS]  is  a public  child-                                                              
welfare  agency  dealing under  the  [ICPC] compact,  it  provides                                                              
that  information  through  cover  letters and  dates  of  custody                                                              
orders.   Are they certified  copies - no.   Ms. Tanoury  said the                                                              
compact  is the  code of  ethics and  trust [among  states].   Ms.                                                              
Tanoury indicated  that she  would like the  name of the  child in                                                              
the case  alluded  to earlier  so that  she may follow  up on  it.                                                              
She said,  "We're doing something wrong,  and I don't know  how to                                                              
correct  it if  I  don't have  the  specific case  so  that I  can                                                              
follow up on it."                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
MS.  TANOURY noted  that she  had  tried earlier  to clarify  that                                                              
under  the compact,  paperwork for  an intact  family is not  sent                                                              
ahead to the [receiving  state].  The state is  informed after the                                                              
family moves  that a child in  Alaska's custody is in  that state.                                                              
The  state  then  provides some  monitoring  and  other  requested                                                              
services for  Alaska; this  is reciprocal.   She pointed  out that                                                              
this is  not the case for  children being  sent out of state  to a                                                              
relative  not  known  by  [DFYS].    In  this  case,  the  compact                                                              
requires all  of the paperwork  ahead of time.   The home  must be                                                              
studied and  approved by the other  state before the child  can be                                                              
released.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
Number 0971                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  DYSON explained  that the  committee is  not interested  in                                                              
promulgating  legislation to  address  a particular  case; it  is,                                                              
however, interested  in addressing systemic problems.   He offered                                                              
his  impression of  Ms. Tanoury's  earlier  representation of  the                                                              
this case  that [DFYS] did  what it deemed  best for the  child in                                                              
question as quickly  as possible, albeit, ahead  of the paperwork,                                                              
but not to the  detriment of the child.  The child  was put in the                                                              
best possible placement and the paperwork was following.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MS.  TANOURY  added  that  the  majority  of  the  complaints  she                                                              
receives  are complaints  that  the process  is  taking too  long.                                                              
Grandma, for  example, wants the  child, and DFYS cannot  send the                                                              
child  until the  paperwork  is  completed.   She  said that  this                                                              
characterizes  95 percent of  the complaints  she hears about.   A                                                              
national conversation  among the states  addresses how to  get the                                                              
process  moving more  quickly.   "Our request  to ... L.A.  County                                                              
gets lost  or ...  at the bottom  of their pile;  it's not  one of                                                              
their kids," she said.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
Number 1054                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  DYSON   recalled  that  Ms.  Tanoury's   earlier  testimony                                                              
indicated  that [DFYS]  acts  on a  judge's  decision rather  than                                                              
waiting for  the official court  document, which can take  days or                                                              
weeks.  He  noted that he  had wondered whether it  is appropriate                                                              
for [DFYS]  to act on  the judge's decision  or whether  it should                                                              
it wait until the paperwork is complete.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MS. TANOURY  said that  was correct,  but clarified  that  a court                                                              
order  is sent  with  a  child leaving  from  or arriving  to  the                                                              
state.   This court  order indicates  that a  child is  in [state]                                                              
custody.   In the aforementioned  case, the  court order  was just                                                              
approving the move.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
Number 1127                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  DYSON noted  that the question  he'd asked  Ms. Tanoury  to                                                              
defend was  whether this  bill passing into  law would  put Alaska                                                              
outside  of  ICPC  compliance.   He  referenced  the  letter  from                                                              
Dennis Eshman, J.D.,  which states that the term  "certified copy"                                                              
puts  Alaska   outside  of  ICPC   compliance.     Because  Alaska                                                              
[proposes]  to use  language different  from that  House Bill  309                                                              
creates consequences  for [failure to  comply].  used to  form the                                                              
basis  of  the  conduct by  all  other  parties  of  jurisdiction,                                                              
Alaska would  be outside the  compact.  He  asked if this  was Ms.                                                              
Tanoury's position.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
MS. TANOURY replied, "Based on his decision, yes."                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR DYSON asked Ms. Tanoury if she would like to add anything.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MS. TANOURY indicated  she would like to comment  on the penalties                                                              
contained in the bill.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  DYSON  offered   that  the  representation   he  has  heard                                                              
expressed over  the years identifies  a lack of  accountability as                                                              
an issue:   there is no record  that anyone was  ever reprimanded.                                                              
The intention  of the [sponsor] of  the bill, he noted,  is to get                                                              
[DFYS's] attention to "do your business the way you should."                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MS.  TANOURY replied,  "And  it  has."   She  explained that  many                                                              
states  have [provisions  for]  violations of  the  compact.   She                                                              
estimated  that 19  or 20  states do  so, including  Alaska.   She                                                              
observed that none  of the violations seem as extreme  as [what is                                                              
called  for in  HB 309];  "this  does seem  very  punitive."   She                                                              
expressed  her  opinion that  [DFYS]  employees  are some  of  the                                                              
hardest-working state  employees; she said, "They don't  - not all                                                              
the  time  - intentionally  do  things  like  this."   Checks  and                                                              
balances are  in place, and she  offered her hope that  these work                                                              
in the majority of cases.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MS. TANOURY said  she would like the names of cases  in which this                                                              
process  hasn't  worked  correctly  so she  can  [take  corrective                                                              
measures].   She noted that the  [language in HB 309]  is punitive                                                              
and goes  well beyond a class  B misdemeanor, whereas  most states                                                              
with a  penalty have  a penalty  for each  incident, not  for each                                                              
day of violation.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Number 1279                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  CISSNA  indicated   she  will  be  introducing  an                                                              
amendment.   She offered  her opinion  that it  would be  great to                                                              
fix problems that occurred.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Number 1331                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
ANNE  CARPENETI,   Assistant  Attorney  General,   Legal  Services                                                              
Section-Juneau, Criminal  Division, Department of Law,  noted that                                                              
she was hesitant  to testify because she is not  familiar with the                                                              
compact; she is familiar with criminal law in general.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MS. CARPENETI expressed  her understanding that [Section  3] would                                                              
make a  violation of the  compact punishable  by 180 days  of jail                                                              
for each  day of  violation for  acts where  there is  no culpable                                                              
mental state,  a "bad  mind," or criminal  negligence.   She noted                                                              
that there is  no intention, knowledge, recklessness,  or criminal                                                              
negligence that  one is in violation  of the law.   Generally, for                                                              
someone to  be held  accountable for this  type of penalty,  there                                                              
is some  sort of requirement  that the  state, in prosecuting  the                                                              
person,  has proved  beyond  a reasonable  doubt  that he/she  had                                                              
some  sort of bad  mind, and  that this  was not  just a  mistake.                                                              
She noted  that this is the  concern of the department  about this                                                              
section.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MS.  CARPENETI  also  pointed  out that  Title  11  includes  more                                                              
general  statutes  that  address misconduct  by  officials;  these                                                              
require   some  sort   of  culpable   mental   state.     Official                                                              
misconduct,  misuse of confidential  information, and  endangering                                                              
the welfare  of a  child are  examples of  these general  statutes                                                              
that  might apply  to some  of these bad  acts in  dealing with  a                                                              
child.  She noted  that the department is concerned  that a person                                                              
could go  to jail for 180  days without any culpable  mental state                                                              
for every  day of violation,  when there  is a possibility  that a                                                              
person could violate it by an innocent or good-faith mistake.                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Number 1439                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR DYSON asked  which statute cited deals with  negligence with                                                              
regard to a child.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
MS.  CARPENETI   replied  that  various  statutes   address  this.                                                              
Custodial interference  in the first  degree is a class  C felony,                                                              
and  custodial interference  in  the second  degree is  a class  A                                                              
misdemeanor.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR DYSON asked what custodial interference means.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MS.  CARPENETI answered  it  means  interfering with  a  custodial                                                              
order of a court.   She offered that she did  not know whether the                                                              
compact  applies  to  parental misconduct.    She  explained  that                                                              
official  misconduct  is  in  violation  of AS  11.56.850  or  the                                                              
misuse of confidential information.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR DYSON  asked for another  statute that she'd  mentioned that                                                              
deals with negligence in relation to a child.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MS. CARPENETI replied, "Endangering the welfare of a child?"                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  DYSON asked  Ms. Carpeneti  to elaborate  on this  statute.                                                              
He  noted  his  impression  that  this one  came  the  closest  to                                                              
sending  a   child  to  the  wrong   place  or  handling   a  case                                                              
improperly.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MS.  CARPENETI responded  that this  would  be a  violation of  AS                                                              
11.51.100.  She  offered her uncertainty that this  applies to the                                                              
types of  cases in  question.   She added,  "I'm not sure  exactly                                                              
what you're looking for."                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR   DYSON   said,   "We're  looking   for   something   that's                                                              
appropriate."                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MS.  CARPENETI  offered  that AS  11.51.100  prohibits  a  parent,                                                              
guardian,  or other  person legally  charged  with the  care of  a                                                              
child under  16 to intentionally desert  a child in a  place under                                                              
circumstances creating  a substantial risk of physical  injury, or                                                              
to  leave the  child  with another  person  who is  not a  parent,                                                              
guardian, or  lawful custodian, knowing  that the person is  a sex                                                              
offender or should be registered as such.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  DYSON observed  that this  didn't  sound like  what he  was                                                              
looking  for.   He suggested  that  Ms. Carpeneti  could see  what                                                              
[the  bill] is  attempting  to do  -  get authentic  documents  to                                                              
accompany a  child.   Original documents will  not work,  he said,                                                              
and Ms.  Tanoury has offered  that "certified" gets  the [American                                                              
Public Human  Services Association's]  "knickers in  a knot."   He                                                              
asked Ms. Carpeneti  for a better term of law to  meet the desired                                                              
end.                                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MS. CARPENETI  said  she'd like  to speak with  [DFYS] about  this                                                              
matter.  "Authentic"  implies that a document is  authenticated by                                                              
someone.  She  offered to research this and make  some suggestions                                                              
for  language  and  to  address   the  [penalty  language].    She                                                              
indicated she could do this by March 7.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  DYSON  summarized   that  the  committee   would  like  Ms.                                                              
Carpeneti  to answer  two questions:   whether  there is a  better                                                              
way  to say  "accurate  documents",  and  whether there  are  more                                                              
appropriate disincentives than $1,000 a day.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Number 1610                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MS.  CARPENETI   indicated  she   would  seek  answers   to  those                                                              
questions.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  DYSON  announced  that  the  committee  would  suspend  the                                                              
hearing on HB 309 until March 14.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Number 1660                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  DYSON,  on another  subject,  asked  members if  they  were                                                              
comfortable  with the  committee's entertaining  a committee  bill                                                              
that  is   the  House  equivalent   to  SB  302.     [He  observed                                                              
concurrence  from Representatives  Kohring, Stevens, and  Cissna.]                                                              
He announced  that the  committee would  go ahead  with that  as a                                                              
committee bill.                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
Number 1680                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CANDACE BROWER,  Program Coordinator, Office of  the Commissioner-                                                              
Juneau,  Department of  Corrections,  noted her  concern with  the                                                              
incarceration  provided in [HB  309]; this would  be a  great cost                                                              
to the state.  [HB 309 was held over.]                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
ADJOURNMENT                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
There being  no further business  before the committee,  the House                                                              
Health, Education  and Social Services Standing  Committee meeting                                                              
was adjourned at 4:52 p.m.