HOUSE HEALTH, EDUCATION AND SOCIAL SERVICES STANDING COMMITTEE February 27, 1997 3:00 p.m. MEMBERS PRESENT Representative Con Bunde, Chairman Representative Joe Green, Vice Chairman Representative Brian Porter Representative Fred Dyson Representative J. Allen Kemplen Representative Tom Brice MEMBERS ABSENT Representative Al Vezey COMMITTEE CALENDAR *HOUSE BILL NO. 146 "An Act relating to competency testing requirements for secondary students; and providing for an effective date." - HEARD AND HELD HOUSE BILL NO. 145 "An Act relating to certification of teachers." - MOVED CSHB 145(HES) OUT OF COMMITTEE HOUSE BILL NO. 121 "An Act relating to A.W. Brindle memorial scholarship loans; and providing for an effective date." - MOVED HB 121 OUT OF COMMITTEE (*First public hearing) PREVIOUS ACTION BILL: HB 146 SHORT TITLE: PUPIL COMPETENCY TESTING SPONSOR(S): HEALTH, EDUCATION & SOCIAL SERVICES JRN-DATE JRN-DATE ACTION 02/18/97 381 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S) 02/18/97 381 (H) HES 02/27/97 (H) HES AT 3:00 PM CAPITOL 106 BILL: HB 145 SHORT TITLE: TEACHING COMPETENCY EXAM FOR CERTIF SPONSOR(S): HEALTH, EDUCATION & SOCIAL SERVICES JRN-DATE JRN-DATE ACTION 02/18/97 381 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S) 02/18/97 381 (H) HES 02/25/97 (H) HES AT 3:00 PM CAPITOL 106 02/25/97 (H) MINUTE(HES) 02/27/97 (H) HES AT 3:00 PM CAPITOL 106 BILL: HB 121 SHORT TITLE: WINN BRINDLE SCHOLARSHIP LOAN SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) WILLIAMS JRN-DATE JRN-DATE ACTION 02/10/97 292 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S) 02/10/97 292 (H) HES 02/20/97 (H) HES AT 3:00 PM CAPITOL 106 02/20/97 (H) MINUTE(HES) 02/25/97 (H) HES AT 3:00 PM CAPITOL 106 02/25/97 (H) MINUTE(HES) 02/27/97 (H) HES AT 3:00 PM CAPITOL 106 WITNESS REGISTER SHIRLEY J. HOLLOWAY, Ph.D., Commissioner Department of Education 801 West Tenth Street, Suite 200 Juneau, Alaska 99801-1894 Telephone: (907) 465-2802 POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HB 146 JAMES RATUZZI, Student Kincaid Elementary School 4900 Raspberry Road Anchorage, Alaska 99502 Telephone: (907) 245-5530 POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HB 146 LIZ FERGUSSON, Student Kincaid Elementary School 4900 Raspberry Road Anchorage, Alaska 99502 Telephone: (907) 245-5530 POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HB 146 CHRIS BLOUNT, Student 2050 Bogard Avenue Wasilla, Alaska 99654 Telephone: (907) 376-2745 POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HB 146 JOHN CYR, President National Education Association-Alaska (NEA-Alaska) 114 Second Street Juneau, Alaska 99801 Telephone: (907) 586-3090 POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HB 146 STEPHEN McPHETRES, Executive Director Alaska Council of School Administrators 326 Fourth Street, Number 404 Juneau, Alaska 99801 Telephone: (907) 586-9702 POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HB 145 ACTION NARRATIVE TAPE 97-14, SIDE A Number 0000 CHAIRMAN CON BUNDE called the House Health, Education and Social Services Standing Committee meeting to order at 3:00 p.m. Members present at the call to order were Representatives Bunde, Porter, Dyson, and Brice. Representative Green arrived at 3:01 p.m. and Representative Kemplen arrived at 3:08 p.m. Representative Vezey was absent. This meeting was teleconferenced to Anchorage, MatSu and an offnet site. HB 146 - PUPIL COMPETENCY TESTING Number 0072 CHAIRMAN BUNDE said the first item on the agenda was HB 146, "An Act relating to competency testing requirements for secondary students; and providing for an effective date." He said this bill basically says that students, who receive a high school diploma, should be able to pass a competency exam showing that they are proficient in the basics. Number 0115 CHAIRMAN BUNDE read from the sponsor statement, many of our high school graduates are finishing school and receiving high school diplomas without the skills necessary to survive in the world. This obviously must not continue. Twenty-one states now conduct student competency tests for a standard high school diploma. The students in those states must pass a test with a minimum score before they are allowed to graduate. Three states also have an exit exam for an "Endorsed Diploma", which is basically an honors diploma. Students not only have to pass the test, but must score at a designated level, higher than the minimum required for a regular diploma. Three other states go even further and have a rigorous test for an "Honors Diploma". Number 0167 CHAIRMAN BUNDE said, under the provisions of HB 146, a student is required to pass a competency examination in the areas of reading, English, mathematics, science and social science before receiving a high school diploma. The test would be selected by the Department of Education (DOE). A pupil who failed this examination and was no longer in attendance would be given a certificate of attendance. It would indicate the number of years of attendance, but would also show that the student has neither passed the competency examination nor received a diploma. The pupil would have the opportunity to take a re-examination, but it would have to take place within three years after the pupil left high school. Number 0227 CHAIRMAN BUNDE said it is time for Alaska to take its place among those states working to ensure that their high school graduates have the knowledge needed to succeed in the world. Number 0327 SHIRLEY J. HOLLOWAY, Ph.D., Commissioner, Department of Education, testified next via teleconference from Anchorage. She was testifying from Kincaid Elementary School in Anchorage and had two students who were interested in the bill and wished to make a comment. Number 0289 JAMES RATUZZI testified next via teleconference from Anchorage. He said he is 12-years-old. His mother agrees with HB 145 and thinks it would be great. He agreed with his mother. Number 0327 LIZ FERGUSSON testified next via teleconference from Anchorage. She is 11-years-old and in sixth grade. She had not talked with her mother, but thinks her mother would want to pass this bill. Number 0360 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY thanked the committee for the opportunity to talk about the quality schools initiative and their interest and questions. She referred to the fact that last year, for the first time, the national assessment of educational progress test was given to the state of Alaska. Those scores were released at 2:00 p.m. EST and all the details were not available. She understood that fourth graders in the state scored, in math, at about the national average and eighth graders scored a little above the national average. She said the DOE would provide more detailed information once they received it. Number 0424 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY said in order for the DOE to contemplate a fair test, which students must pass in order to graduate, the public school system really has to be of quality, this includes adopted and well-known standards for all students. This really means that our professionals are prepared to make sure that all students have an opportunity to learn these standards. At this time, no state uses a commercially available test. There are 17 states with an exit examination, that DOE knows of, and they have all been contacted for specific details on how they run a defensible testing program of this nature. COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY said tests are either developed by the state or by a publisher for the state. The security of the test is evidently a major factor which causes states to revise their test frequently, most do so annually. Frequent retesting is not allowed as this affects the validity of the results. States do not test more than once a year. As you can see from the letter, which she hoped was located in the committee file, DOE cannot use the California achievement test as an exit examination. Number 0512 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY said every state which has an exit examination has a state adopted curriculum. This means that all schools must teach this curriculum and all students are supposed to learn it. Every state, currently using an examination for graduation, has an exit test closely tied to the curriculum or standards with staff monitoring whether that curriculum and standards are being taught. This is what allows the exit examination to withstand the inevitable court challenges which will occur when students obtain passing grades, but do not pass the test. Studies say that students fail, even when they are actually able to perform the skills on the test, due to anxiety or other reasons. For that reason, many of the states have gone to a multiple approach in their exit tests. They might have a student do a portfolio, they might have a pencil and paper test and they might do what is called, "mastery exhibition." Master Exhibition is where students perform research, draft a well written paper and present those papers to a community of school people. Number 0607 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY said there is not a state adopted curriculum or state adopted standards in Alaska at this time. She referred to the past committee meeting where she testified that Governor Knowles had asked the state Board of Education to consider imbedding language, in the regulations, that districts need to meet or exceed standards in language arts, math and reading. The Board of Education has directed the DOE to draft a regulation that would say that and then present it for their consideration. Number 0652 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY said the state budget for this examination, based on quickly done research, varied from a low of $500,000 annually to a high of $10 million after the test development is completed. When students do not pass an exit examination, districts are probably going to have to incur costs such as remedial programs or summer school. The department thinks that any exit test has to be part of a comprehensive, broad based assessment that would start when children begin schooling. Children should come to the schools with a good developmental profiling of where they are in their development. Critical benchmarks and interventions should be done throughout their schooling to increase the probability that every student truly has the opportunity to gain the knowledge and the skills to perform well on the exit test. Number 0704 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY said these tests are called high stakes test because the consequences, to the student who does not pass, are very high. Other states report that most students who do not pass end up dropping out of school, their whole life affected. With this knowledge, the state of Alaska would want to select or develop an examination of the very best quality and one which would be the most fair to all of the children in the school districts in the state. There is a lot of work to do to make an exit test a reality for Alaska. Number 0750 CHAIRMAN BUNDE referred to her testimony that students that fail this test would drop out of school. He envisioned that this test would be administered late in the senior year, so there would be little consequence to people dropping out of school. Number 0767 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY said if we had a broader based assessment, assessments would have been done maybe two times before they ever got to that exit test. These tests might have been done even before they were in high school. We would know the probability of them passing that exit test and would do a good intervention to assist them in being able to pass it. Number 0786 CHAIRMAN BUNDE referred to her use of "we" and said he imagined that the school district would be doing the pretesting, the benchmarking, as the student goes along but the state would only be responsible for the final exam. Number 0799 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY said this is a possible way to design it. She thought that some of the districts are well positioned to do that, but many of the district are not and would need a great deal of support and technical assistance from the state. Number 0815 REPRESENTATIVE BRIAN PORTER asked her, from her experience going around the state, if she had the opportunity to look at the basic curriculum throughout the state. Knowing whether or not there were substantial differences in the basic course of Algebra One in Sitka as opposed to Fairbanks. Number 0841 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY said there is a great deal of diversity in expectations within the different schools in the state of Alaska. Number 0851 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER commented that perhaps we have identified a problem. Number 0857 REPRESENTATIVE FRED DYSON was under the impression that the Japanese, the English, the Canadians and the Germans were all doing a very standard test for their equivalent of high school proficiency and asked her if she knew if this was true or not. Number 0877 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY did not know for sure, but most of those countries have a basic curriculum that is country-wide and is expected to be taught to all students. It is probable that they have an exit examination based on agreed upon learning. Number 0903 REPRESENTATIVE DYSON said those countries probably have more cultural homogeneity than we do. Tailoring tests for cultural minorities might be less of a problem for those countries. He inferred that the commissioner would try to make a test to take into account students' learning styles and their ability to respond to standard tests. There would be a means of demonstrating competency other than a paper and pencil test. Number 0941 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY said this was correct, any exit examination has to have a performance part of the test. We shouldn't just rely on paper and pencil. Based on the National Assessment of Educational Progress (NAEP) test, the response of teachers who gave the national assessment educational progress test; 30 percent of the test was performance based. Students did scientific experiments, manipulation of objects and that kind of thing. Teachers reported that students were well engaged and said it gave those students an opportunity to demonstrate knowledge in a different way other than filling in a bubble. She thought this was important for us to consider in developing a credible, reliable exit test. Number 0983 REPRESENTATIVE DYSON said there will always be concern that some districts and some schools will find a way to get all the kids to pass, even though there isn't a competency in finding a test that they will pass. He asked how the DOE could work to limit that manipulation of the test. Number 1013 COMMISSIONER HOLLOWAY said we would have to learn from other states and their mistakes. She believed that it would be important that we have agreed upon learning. She mentioned the state board is adopting language arts, mathematics and reading as the core of the state's responsibility for assessment. "By saying that districts have to meet or exceed those, there would have to be, and we're recommending, through our accreditation, new accreditation model, that when we go in we would expect to see that there have been, there are standards and they are the state standards in language arts, math and reading. And if they are in fact being taught and measured all the way along, then your exit test is in alignment to the previous tests and what is actually being taught." Number 1079 CHRIS BLOUNT, Student, testified next via teleconference from MatSu. He said he is a junior at Wasilla High School and thinks the test is a good idea, but it should not be popped on the students. The testing should begin in 2001, current eighth graders would be the first ones to take the test allowing teachers to prepare the students. He said introducing this test would be unfair to the teachers as well as the students. He referred to students that have difficulty taking tests. Number 1146 CHAIRMAN BUNDE said this test would be phased in over at least a four year period so students are aware of what is being expected of them. The test would not surprise anyone. He said the concern is that a high school diploma needs to retain some respect in the public. Right now, particularly in the business community, a number of people are saying that a high school diploma doesn't mean anything because we have too many kids who can't read and write at the high school level. People look at a high school diploma and question how valid it is and what your credibility is. "One of the things we're trying to do is help those students who might not be able to pass the test, we want to encourage them to be able to pass the test and the other thing is that we want to help students like yourself, who could pass the test, by making their diploma mean even more than it does now." Number 1203 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER said legislation is often provided without talking to the people affected by the legislation. He asked Mr. Blount if he had an idea of what his career goals might be. Number 1227 MR. BLOUNT said he was thinking of being a teacher. Number 1232 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER said one of the other bills being considered by the committee is that when a teacher comes to this state and decides they want to be certified in the state, they are going to get a test popped at them. If they can't pass that test, they won't get certified and they won't teach. He said quite a few professions and occupations have that reality. This bill tries to get our high school students prepared for the reality that they are going to be facing. Number 1271 CHAIRMAN BUNDE assured Mr. Blount that this test would not apply to him. Number 1304 JOHN CYR, President, National Education Association-Alaska (NEA- Alaska), said his organization supports the principle that students should achieve certain competencies before graduation, but they could not support HB 146 in its present form. They believe that a one time test taken by 17 or 18-year-olds, shortly before graduation, is not the best way to achieve student standards or to ensure student competency. They believe that a comprehensive system of student assessment, followed with intervention and remediation, is more likely to positively affect student achievement. By requiring serious assessment and real interventions at earlier grade levels for those students who are experiencing difficulties, they believe schools and teachers can develop strategies to strengthen learning. MR. CYR referred to the commissioner's testimony and said that beyond the regular assessments that classroom teachers do, there are several natural checkpoints can be taken advantage if the state wishes to require district or statewide assessment. Perhaps the most natural checkpoint is when children enter school. Districts all over the country assess incoming kindergarten children to determine readiness to learn and their learning styles. A follow- up assessment could happen at the end of the primary grades, another assessment when they leave elementary school, an assessment coming out of middle school or junior high and then certainly assessments at the high school level. This would give teachers and parents the information needed to provide appropriate programs to effect change in those students who are not meeting the standards. The careful use of portfolios of work and testing at critical periods in the student learning cycle would help education professionals, more accurately, determine students needs as well as measuring proficiencies. MR. CYR said NEA-Alaska believes that students and parents deserve to find out, as soon as possible in the education process, if there are any learning problems that need to be addressed. The program of the sort that was outlined would help children and their families, but only if we are willing to provide the necessary support for remediation. It will not help the learning environment if all we do is test kids. Testing must lead to a change in the students' learning environment, if it is indicated. Smaller class size, intensive remedial programs, increased utilization of school counselors especially in the elementary grades, up to date instructional materials and technology and enhanced parental involvement must be the result of any assessment program. It is these types of changes that will increase the performance of all students, not just those who are at risk. MR. CYR said, finally, we must work with community partners and teachers to reallocate existing revenues to guarantee standards, referenced in learning, in every public school. Our long range goal must be to rebuild the education system so as to dedicate our work to activities for improving teaching and learning as measured by standards for student achievement. Number 1469 CHAIRMAN BUNDE asked if he could infer that if we just had smaller class size, school counselors, more parental involvement and the rest of the list that all students would be functionally literate when they received their high school diploma. Number 1478 MR. CYR said you could infer that if we had smaller class size, better instructional material, appropriate use of technology, used school counselors to help those kids with problems that the vast majority would be positively impacted. He said he could not guarantee that every child who is born and comes to an Alaskan public school would succeed with those supports. Number 1500 CHAIRMAN BUNDE said most of the teachers do a great deal of what he suggested should be done and they still have children who choose to fail. Number 1510 MR. CYR said, with all due respect, he did not know that children choose to fail. In some cases society fails children, in some cases parents fail them and in some cases schools fail them. Collectively, as a society, we fail children, but he did not think children choose to fail. Number 1530 CHAIRMAN BUNDE said his experience was limited to high school and post high school ages. He said there are high school kids who choose to fail. Number 1543 REPRESENTATIVE DYSON said, as he understood Commissioner Holloway's testimony, the way DOE would approach this testing is virtually identical to what Mr. Cyr said in his statement. Number 1564 MR. CYR said he arrived in the middle of her testimony. Number 1591 CHAIRMAN BUNDE said this is the first time this bill has been addressed, it would be heard again on Thursday, March 6, 1997. He said he would entertain and encourage a request for additional public testimony. HB 145 - TEACHING COMPETENCY EXAM FOR CERTIF Number 1622 CHAIRMAN BUNDE announced the next item on the agenda was HB 145, "An Act relating to certification of teachers." He said there was a committee substitute as well as public testimony regarding the committee substitute. Number 1632 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER made a motion to adopt the committee substitute for HB 145 as the committee's working document. Hearing no objections CSHB 145(HES) was now before the committee. Number 1647 STEPHEN McPHETRES, Executive Director, Alaska Council of School Administrators, was first to testify. He said, upon listening to the testimony on HB 145 at the previous committee meeting, concerns were raised. While his organization supports the concept of teacher testing, they are concerned to the degree and to the complexity of what the testing should be. The initial bill, a very basic examination for future teachers coming into the state, would be supported by his organization. As more complex ways of evaluation for preservice teachers to the state are developed, his organization becomes concerned. The concern raises out of the fact that we need to have a substantial talent base on which to choose competent teachers for our schools. MR. McPHETRES said, at the April job fairs in the state of Alaska, there were 820 potential teaching candidates that came to the state for interviewing in 1992, in 1996 there were 672. For the number registered with the Alaska teacher placement office; in 1992 there were 1,182 and in 1996 there were 890. The trend is a drop in potential candidates. As decision makers we can provide all kinds of gates to get through, but it is still those administrators, school boards, teachers and communities who have to find a selection of competent people in the classroom. MR. McPHETRES encouraged the legislature, as we look at setting up another gate for people coming into the state, to be consistent with other states in the Pacific Northwest. Many of Alaska's teachers come from those states. If we look at various states including; Oregon, Washington, Montana, California, Idaho and Michigan, the current trend is that when a person completes their graduate or undergraduate program in education they automatically take the National Teaching Exam (NTE). Their score on this exam determines states where they meet qualifications for certification. He hoped that Alaska would look at staying consistent with other states in order to remain competitive. Number 1771 CHAIRMAN BUNDE asked if he was saying that the same vehicle could be used to test potential Alaska teachers, if he was saying that there should be some kind of reciprocity if potential teachers have passed the test when they leave the University of Washington, they would be grandfathered into Alaska. Number 1786 MR. McPHETRES suggested that if they have taken the NTE somewhere and have reached the score that Alaska deems as an acceptable score, certification could be offered. Number 1809 CHAIRMAN BUNDE said this assumes that we use the same test. Number 1812 MR. McPHETRES repeated that we should be somewhat consistent with what other states are doing in order to remain competitive. Number 1822 REPRESENTATIVE DYSON asked, without the state administered teacher certification, if local school administrators have the tools needed to be able to select competent teachers. Number 1855 MR. McPHETRES said the scores give a certain amount of confidence in the community. It adds one more level of validation that this person is competent for the job. As far as evaluation tools for the candidate, he believed the answer was yes. Hiring practices are much broader than when he first started in administration back in the early 1970s. Back then it was basically God who made the decision. Now the local principal, with a parent group and/or staff, sits down and goes through all the applications, does all the screenings and then brings their recommendations to the board. Number 1895 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER said he was not familiar with the NTE. Number 1914 MR. McPHETRES said the test was developed across the country and is nationally recognized by universities and states have used it subsequently to determine certification eligibility. "Our universities do administer that examination now, it would in Alaska." It tests on basic knowledge and the area of the teacher's expertise. Number 1930 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER asked, in his opinion as a school administrator, if the NTE would serve the function that is being purported in this bill. He asked if the NTE was ever considered for the state of Alaska's exam. MR. McPHETRES said the teacher certification task force has discussed this exam. Universities administer that exam. Number 1959 REPRESENTATIVE KEMPLEN presented a scenario where he is interested in hiring someone in a technical specialty such as current technology, computer science or multi-media. He asked if, before that person comes in and teaches in the classroom, they needed a teacher's certificate. Number 1980 MR. McPHETRES said they need a teaching certificate if they are going to be a full time teacher in control of the classroom. There are recognized expert certificates that often can be given for short term periods. He said there are computer specialists located in most schools in major municipalities and added that the district wide teachers are also certified for technology. Number 2004 REPRESENTATIVE KEMPLEN enhanced his scenario that someone in the computer industry, who is involved with multi-media, is interested in sharing his knowledge with youth. This person has offered to teach classes for a year. He asked if they would be required to have a teaching certificate to do that. Number 2030 MR. McPHETRES said they would not be required to have a teaching certificate as long as they were under the supervision of another certified teacher. If you were a district-wide technology specialist and a computer industry person wanted to come in to teach, a deal could be worked out where the computer industry person could come in for an hour here and there. It could be worked out to accommodate that person. The computer industry person could not teach if they were going to be in complete control of the class. The unfortunate part is that we are looking at alternative ways for people to get into the teaching field without going through a four year degree program. He mentioned that several people are interested in doing this. He referred to a person involved in real estate and business and said that person has to go through all the preliminary preparation courses that a freshman in college has to go through. Number 2085 REPRESENTATIVE KEMPLEN asked if this proposed examination would be a barrier to what they are trying to do. Number 2091 MR. McPHETRES said it would not be a barrier. People should be able to demonstrate a basic skill in all these areas. Number 2100 CHAIRMAN BUNDE said he is not necessarily opposed to alternative ways to certification, but we have experienced people who are experts in the field who are lousy teachers. He did not think that public schools were a place where we should allow people to hobby teach if they cannot demonstrate a good job of teaching as well as skills. He was not referring to anyone cited as an example in testimony. It is essential for a good teacher to have good subject matter depth, but there is a difference between having subject matter depth and being a good teacher. Number 2187 MR. McPHETRES said a few years ago there was an alternative route to certification. He believed only four individuals took advantage of it. They went through a significant assessment examination to determine their personal skills in working with children. They were also involved in a mentoring program as well as some university things. The lack of interest set that program aside. Number 2150 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN said three out of his five children are teachers in Oregon and California. In both states they have been hired to teach certain subjects, but for various circumstances they have been asked to teach other subjects of which they are not experts. He asked if Alaska did the same thing. He asked whether a person who passed a specific test, based on their ability to teach science, might be asked to teach physical education or something that they might not be qualified teaching. Number 2187 MR. McPHETRES said this happens, particularly in the rural schools. He referred to another example where this happened and said it is one of the things you have to do in order to fill out the curriculum for the kids. Number 2200 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN said, "my concern is if that's the case, would it be an Achilles heel in the program to find whatever is the easiest test to pass to qualify there and then say, hey, but really I'm a science teacher or a math teacher or something. This is obviously taking this to an extreme, but I think you see where my concern is." Number 2214 MR. McPHETRES said all of us major in a discipline as we go through a college or university system and we should be able to demonstrate our mastery of our knowledge, whether it is orals or something else. In real life we do different things, so he did not believe that it is critical enough that there should be any discrimination between what they've tested and where they are actually working. Number 2236 CHAIRMAN BUNDE said there should be a higher level of concern for the physical education teacher teaching science. Number 2239 MR. McPHETRES said, in previous legislation, they are hoping to address that issue. TAPE 97-14, SIDE B Number 0000 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER said, as he reads CSHB 145(HES), it gives DOE the flexibility to incorporate NTE, devise another test or find a test that incorporates the basic levels of competency in teaching and general subjects included in the state's core curriculum. He said this core curriculum will have to be developed. Alaska needs to get in line with other states that recognize this testing as a necessity. Number 0082 CHAIRMAN BUNDE said if we use an existing test or test vehicle, the fiscal note would be examined in detail by the House Finance Standing Committee. Number 0100 REPRESENTATIVE KEMPLEN referred to the last meeting and said there was some mention of the appropriateness of inserting, "Type A", before, "teacher certificate" . He got the impression that the language was an appropriate adjustment to make. He asked why "Type A" was not inserted in CSHB 145(HES). Number 0141 CHAIRMAN BUNDE said regulation 4 AAC 12.020 reads that a regular certificate is a Type A, there is an assurance that what we are talking about is already in regulation. Number 0175 REPRESENTATIVE KEMPLEN referred to Type C and D teaching certificates. Number 0178 CHAIRMAN BUNDE said CSHB 145(HES) will affect only Type A certificates which de facto affects Type B teaching certificates. Type C and D would not come under the provisions of this bill. Type C involve speech therapists, counselors and that sort of thing. Type D involve vocational education people. REPRESENTATIVE KEMPLEN clarified that a teaching certificate is not required for those categories. CHAIRMAN BUNDE said Type C and D are teaching certificates, but they're different types of teaching certificates. In his mind they are not classroom teachers. This bill addresses the vast majority of teachers who will be at the blackboard. REPRESENTATIVE KEMPLEN asked where the distinction between the Type A and Type C and D was included in the language of the bill. Number 0266 CHAIRMAN BUNDE referred to page 1, Section 2(i), "for an initial regular teacher certificate" and said that is defined in regulation as a Type A teaching certificate. Number 0304 REPRESENTATIVE KEMPLEN clarified that a regular teaching certificate is a Type A. Number 0361 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN made a motion to move CSHB 145(HES) with attached fiscal notes and individual recommendations. Number 0382 REPRESENTATIVE DYSON objected to the motion. "At a time when we are trying to make government smaller and smarter, we're this, this is intrusive, there's times for, certainly for government to be intrusive." This bill is an effort to manage the inputs rather than the outputs of production. There needs to be quality standards for the goods and services we require, but there is always the tendency for the inexperienced manager to want to count the number of paper clips. Pupil testing measures outputs causing the organization and its resources to be tailored to that goal. Several people in the education field have said that it is easy to measure knowledge, but it is extremely difficult to measure the art. Teaching is more difficult to measure than anything else, you can only see it as it's being practiced. REPRESENTATIVE DYSON said he asked various administrative people, from 20 different communities, if the school board and the administration had the right tools to select competent teachers and they confirmed that they did. There was some concern that another gate to pass would make it difficult for the districts to obtain teachers. Many of the school districts he talked with were dealing with somewhat culturally difficult situations and they are very interested in teachers who can relate to the population and the culture. Those people do not see how an objective test was going to help the key thing that they have to look for in a teacher. REPRESENTATIVE DYSON said he is most concerned by the fact that CSHB 145(HES) did not test existing teachers. He said the one consistent result from teacher testing, obtained from every group he has been able to contact nationally, is that it provides significant salary raises for all the teachers in the entire system. Arkansas and Virginia could not find teachers who could pass the test and work for the wage packet they had, so they raised the incoming salaries. Those states then had to raise the salaries for the existing teachers. Number 0620 REPRESENTATIVE DYSON said, with the national standard teaching test, we have the very tool we need. Any district which feels that they need more help, can apply this tool. Number 0635 CHAIRMAN BUNDE said this bill will screen out unqualified teachers, letting a few pass while the vast majority will not have any problem with the examination. He said, working on that issue for two years, the same school board members who assure you that they have the adequate tools to hire competent teachers asked for a change in tenure because they had incompetent teachers they were unable to get rid of without legislative assistance. Number 0672 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN referred to Representative Dyson's statement that testing in unnecessary, yet it would make him feel better if testing was done for existing teachers as well. Number 0687 REPRESENTATIVE DYSON said he is wary of any profession that creates an incumbent group and then sets up a barrier for the next group. He referred to conversations with friends in the teaching field. They told him that it is interesting that their profession is one of the few where intellectual attainment tends to go down. Pressures of the classroom, social concerns, dealing with student difficulties and community relationships seems to keep the profession from growing intellectually. Reluctance to test existing teachers bothers him because it would protect a class of people and ensure increased wages for them. Number 0750 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER said there is a fundamental legal problem with establishing a standard retroactively. He said over time, if we had this initial screening test, schools would encourage existing teachers to take the test and use it as a guide for inservice training. To apply it and then require a decertification would create legal problems. REPRESENTATIVE PORTER said he viewed this examination as an initial screening, much like the first test in becoming a police officer. He said this is a standard written examination taken before a person's talents, abilities and stabilities are taken into consideration. There is great efficiency in having a general screening test, it saves you a lot of time when you are looking at other things. Number 0847 REPRESENTATIVE KEMPLEN referred to craft guilds in the Middle Ages which sought to limit the amount of participation in their activity in order to maintain control and ensure that they received significant economic benefits. The craft guilds were a major barrier to growth of the free market system. He said this bill seems to be something that the craft guild would look upon favorably. Number 0910 CHAIRMAN BUNDE said, having had the opportunity to work on the teacher certification task force for several years and as an ex- teacher, when he looked at the qualifications that are demanded of a teacher he would have had some questions about choosing the teaching profession. His first teaching job paid $6,200 a year and had he known the demands he would have questioned whether he should have gone into another field. He said he hoped he would have gone into teaching. He said we can lower the standards, we don't have to raise the wages. Number 0951 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER said if there was the expectation that salaries would rise, he did not think Mr. Cyr would have talked about this bill. Number 1000 A roll call vote was taken on CSHB 145(HES). Representatives Porter, Brice, Green and Bunde voted yea. Representatives Dyson and Kemplen voted nay. Representative Vezey was absent for the vote. Chairman Bunde announce that CSHB 145(HES) was moved from the House Health, Education and Social Services Committee with individual recommendations and attached fiscal notes. HB 121 - WINN BRINDLE SCHOLARSHIP LOAN  Number 1050 CHAIRMAN BUNDE announced the next item on the agenda was HB 121, "An Act relating to A.W. Brindle memorial scholarship loans; and providing for an effective date." Number 1050 REPRESENTATIVE TOM BRICE made a motion to move HB 121 with accompanying zero fiscal notes and individual recommendations. Hearing no objections, HB 121 was moved from the House Health, Education and Social Services Committee. ADJOURNMENT There being no further business to conduct, CHAIRMAN BUNDE adjourned the meeting of the House Health, Education and Social Services Standing Committee at 4:05 p.m.