HOUSE SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON FISHERIES April 15, 1998 5:05 p.m. MEMBERS PRESENT Representative Alan Austerman, Chairman Representative Ivan Ivan Representative Scott Ogan Representative Mark Hodgins MEMBERS ABSENT Representative Gene Kubina COMMITTEE CALENDAR * HOUSE CONCURRENT RESOLUTION NO. 33 Relating to the allocation of Alaska salmon. - SCHEDULED BUT NOT HEARD * HOUSE BILL NO. 483 "An Act relating to processors of sport caught fish; requiring certain nonresident alien sport fishermen to be accompanied by a sport fishing guide; and providing for an effective date." - HEARD AND HELD (* First public hearing) PREVIOUS ACTION BILL: HB 483 SHORT TITLE: SPORT FISH COMMERCIAL SERVICES SPONSOR(S): RULES Jrn-Date Jrn-Page Action 4/07/98 2906 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S) 4/07/98 2906 (H) FISHERIES, RESOURCES 4/15/98 (H) FSH AT 5:00 PM CAPITOL 124 WITNESS REGISTER JAMES HORNADAY, Legislative Assistant to Representative Pete Kott Alaska State Legislature Capitol Building, Room 204 Juneau, Alaska 99801 Telephone: (907) 465-6848 POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HB 483. HAZEL NELSON, Representative Becharof Corporation 1577 C Street, Suite 304 Anchorage, Alaska 99501 Telephone: (907) 263-9820 POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of HB 483. JOEL HARD, Representative Fish and Wildlife Protection Agency P.O. Box 388 Palmer, Alaska 99645-0388 Telephone: (907) 746-9139 POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of part of HB 483. DICK ROHRER P.O. Box 2219 Kodiak, Alaska 99615 Telephone: (907) 486-5835 POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of HB 483. MICHAEL WALLER, Owner Easy Freeze P.O. Box 508 Valdez, Alaska 99686 Telephone: (907) 8354208 POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HB 483. DONNA WALLER P.O. Box 508 Valdez, Alaska 99686 Telephone: (907) 8354208 POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HB 483. VIRGIL UMPHENOUR, Member Board of Fisheries 878 Lynwood Way North Pole, Alaska 99705 Telephone: (907) 456-3885 POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of HB 483. RAY DEBARDELABEN, Sport Guide P.O. Box 4357 Soldotna, Alaska 99669 Telephone: (907) 262-5097 POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of HB 483. REUBEN HANKE, Owner Guide Camp P.O. Box 624 Kenai, Alaska 99611 Telephone: (907) 262-5097 POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of HB 483. ALAN LEMASTER P.O. Box 222 Gakona, Alaksa 99586 Telephone: (907) 822-3664 POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of HB 483. BUD HODSON, Owner Sport Fishing Lodge; Former Chairman Board of Fisheries; Former Chairman Guide Charter Task Force KEVIN DELANY, Director, Division of Sport Fish Department of Fish and Game 333 Raspberry Road Anchorage, Alaska 99518 Telephone: (907) 267-2224 POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of HB 483. ACTION NARRATIVE TAPE 98-15, SIDE A Number 0001 CHAIRMAN ALAN AUSTERMAN called the House Special Committee on Fisheries meeting to order at 5:05 p.m. Members present at the call to order were Representatives Austerman, Ivan, Ogan and Hodgins. CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN stated that HCR 33 was scheduled to be heard but the prime sponsor pulled it off of tonight's schedule. HB 483 - SPORT FISH COMMERCIAL SERVICES CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN stated that the committee would hear HB 483,"An Act relating to processors of sport caught fish; requiring certain nonresident alien sport fishermen to be accompanied by a sport fishing guide; and providing for an effective date." Number 0021 JAMES HORNADAY, Legislative Assistant to Representative Pete Kott, read the sponsor statement into the record: "House Bill 483 was introduced to improve the stewardship of the fisheries resource. Section 1 of the bill seeks to require that nonresident alien sport fishermen, except those of Canada and Mexico, be guided by registered sport fish guides. This language will curtail mistakes and abuses by aliens who are often less familiar with our State's Fish and Game regulations which are complicated and may change throughout the season or from season to season. "Section 2 provides language that requires processors of sport caught fish to register with ADFG [Alaska Department of Fish and Game] and maintain records of the sport fish processed. Within this section sport fish processing is defined to include activities associated with sport fish processing or those associated with preparation for shipping. Specifically omitted are activities which may be provided by guides in their normal course of business. This bill will assist enforcement efforts and validate a portion of information derived from the statewide harvest survey, a statistical sampling. All users of our fisheries resource will benefit by additional accountability of the processed fish shipped from our state each summer." Number 0061 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN stated that it is not his intention to move this bill tonight. He stated that they just received a memorandum from George Utermohle of Legislative Council that raises some questions as to the legality or the constitutionality of placing a requirement on aliens to have a guide. Number 0100 HAZEL NELSON, Representative, Becharof Corporation, testified via teleconference from Anchorage that she can see the merit in the bill. She stated that she grew up in Bristol Bay and has both commercial and sport fished. She stated that the issue is becoming more important as the alien fishermen and hunters are rising in number. She stated that it is great for tourism but is concerned as to what is going to happen to the resource. Twenty years from now she does not want to look back and wish that something was done. She stated that it is important to move the bill forward. She stated that it is hard to get something like this addressed through the Board of Fisheries but she felt the legislature could do it. She stated that the problem with processors, processing sport caught fish is that in the commercial communities those fish that are caught are often left in the freezers. She stated that there is a community on the peninsula that is very upset because they have not had that much subsistence fish and yet there is king salmon that is just sitting in the freezers when they could of been subsistence fish or at least gone up the rivers and spawned. She stated that HB 483 is one way to get a handle on the amount of fish that is be processed and sent away. She stated that she hoped that the bill passes. Number 0178 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN stated that one of the concerns they have, because of the opinion by Legislative Legal Department, is in order for HB 483 to be constitutionally correct there has to be some compelling state interest, and in order to prove so there has to documentation that shows there is a problem with the alien sport fishermen. He asked if there was anything that she knew of that would show violations. Number 0195 MS. NELSON replied that the community of Egegik is implementing a trespass policy because of the huge influx of alien fishermen. She stated that they are going to try and document it this summer. She stated that the corporation is going to have to invest a lot of money into it to do it right. She stated that down the road she would have some information to give the committee. Number 0214 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN asked if she could submit something in writing. He stated that the area of the bill that speaks to processing of sport caught fish was added to the bill because of petition or resolution by the Board of Fisheries. He stated that the committee is interested in pursuing that to whatever degree he can. Number 0240 JOEL HARD, Representative, Fish and Wildlife Protection Agency, testified via teleconference from Palmer that they have a mixed opinion on the legislation. He stated that they are supportive of Section 2 and feel that it will be advantageous to maintain the records, as it would improve their ability to document cases after the fact. He stated that Section 1 of the bill is an effort to address over-limit complaints by European fishermen. He has not seen those types of ethnic restrictions before and it will most likely result in a discrimination challenge. It suggests that Europeans must be more violative than the other groups, which has not been sufficiently documented. He explained that in the case of big game guiding, the guided service is mandated for certain species, more for the added safety of the participates then it is for ensuring regulation. It seems like this provision is more targeted towards ensuring that there is that level of compliance in the sport fishery which he does not oppose. However, that job would more appropriately fall on the agency. He stated that it is likely that the agency's enforcement personnel would be burdened by trying to determine in the field who is from where. He stated that if someone was fishing and the salmon was not visible they could state that they were fishing for a different species. He stated that in the case of individuals that go to license vendors, added falsifications could result from this legislation which would burden the agency because it would take a great deal of time to validate or invalidate those falsifications in foreign countries. He reiterated that they are supportive of Section 2 of the bill, however they have reservations with Section 1 of the bill. Number 0295 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN stated that there has been some suggestions to go to a catch and release only system for non-resident aliens. Number 0300 MR. HARD stated that he thought a catch and release system would be fairly difficult to enforce as there are nonresident aliens fishing in parties with residents. He stated it would be simple for them to claim that they were under a resident's bag limit. Number 0308 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN asked if he understood correctly that the agency does not have any documentation at all, as to a problem with alien fishermen. Number 0311 MR. HARD replied that they do get a lot of complaints but the complaints come from the remote areas and are difficult to validate. He stated that in Palmer, he deals with the complaints on a regular basis but a lot of them are complaints from residents that are observing this kind of activity going on in sport fishing lodges, where guides are already employed. He stated that he did not know if the bill would alleviate that concern. He stated they do get plenty complaints of over limit cases, on residents nonresidents and aliens. Those are not validated complaints because the people making the complaints can't say who is from where. Number 0326 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN stated that if it is just the case of over fishing then the catch and release would solve some of those problems as far as where the guided lodges are concerned. Number 0330 MR. HARD replied that it certainly could. CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN asked if he could give him something in writing. MR. HARD stated that he would. Number 0336 DICK ROHRER, testified via teleconference from Kodiak that he would encourage HB 483 be moved along. He stated that he is especially supportive of Section 1. He pointed out the alien nonresident big game hunters are required to hire a guide for all species, which is a resource issue with aliens. It came into being when large camps of Germans and Swiss were taking a lot of moose, unguided. He quoted from the refuge manager's report that four nonresident fishermen from Washington took home 12,000 pounds of king salmon fillets. He explained that he has personally observed seven Germans from a German fishing club, camped at the outlet of Uganik lake for 17 days. They took 60 silver salmon in one day; the bag limited is 5 per day. A pilot told him that they requested a flight out two days later and the fish did not have any refrigeration. He stated that refuge manager Jay Bellinger, felt the bill would be a helpful enforcement tool for him, as they have two cases against alien fishermen but the difficulty they have in proving that they are "alien sport fishermen here actually guiding is because the clients don't speak English". There is also no control in tracking fish that is shipped overseas. Number 0400 MR. ROHRER explained that he does not think the reason this is occurring is because alien fishermen are not familiar with Alaskan Law. It is just the opposite they are coming here as guides bringing clients and are not in compliance operating on the refuge. He stated that the refuge manager in Kodiak is very supportive of the bill, as there are compelling reasons for the bill. He encouraged passage of HB 483. Number 0418 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN asked what he thought of the suggestion of going to catch and release on all alien systems. Number 0423 MR. ROHRER stated that he did not have a problem with that or even with a severely reduced bag limit. He stated that in all the years that he has been guiding in Kodiak, he gets check on a regular basis when the protection agency is in the fields for commercial fisheries in the spring, but he has never been checked in August or September. He submitted that in remote areas it is not convenient for them to check sport fishermen at that time. Number 0447 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN asked if he could send the committee something in writing. Number 0458 MICHAEL WALLER, Owner, Easy Freeze, testified via teleconference from Valdez that Easy Freeze is a small processing place that only processes for sport fishermen. He stated that HB 483 is discriminatory, in that it pinpoints particular countries. He stated that alien should refer to all alien sport fishermen. He stated that he has problems with Section 2, it should not be the responsibility of the processor to get the location, license and number of the fish that is caught. The charter boat captain should be the one documenting since he was there and the processor has enough to do in keeping up with the tremendous flow of fish when they come in. He asserted that a catch and release program would very seriously hurt or put the small processors out of business. Number 0499 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN asked what percentage of his business is from alien sport fishermen. Number 0501 MR. WALLER stated that his wife could better answer that question. Number 0504 DONNA WALLER testified via teleconference from Valdez that they do keep a lot of records that the bill is asking for but it would be added work to ask for licenses. She stated that they keep records on the species of fish that comes in and what they want done to the fish. She stated that last year they did not do much business with Canada due to shipping problems. They would process the other alien sport fishermen's fish and then they would take it up to Anchorage for the international zoning process. Number 0522 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN asked if they do a lot processing for Canadians. Number 0524 MS. WALLER replied that they maybe did ten percent, once they found out the problem with shipping the fish, they would process the fish and then have them take it to Anchorage on their own. Number 0532 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN asked if the majority of their business was done with alien sport fishermen. Number 0533 MS. WALLER replied that maybe it is 40 percent. Number 0546 VIRGIL UMPHENOUR, Member, Board of Fisheries, testified via teleconference from Fairbanks that he is speaking as a member of the Board of Fisheries. He stated that he is the board member that made the motion to bring this forward to the legislature. He stated that when the Board travels all over the state they hear a tremendous amount of testimony regarding the various problems in each area. He stated that the concern of the Department of Public Safety is not a concern, he is a registered guide and on the form to get ones hunting licenses there is a place for a nonresident or a nonresident alien sport fishing to fill in the name of the registered guide that they have hired. He asserted that this same thing could be done on the fishing license. MR. UMPHENOUR stated that nonresident aliens sport fishermen are a problem. He stated that he attended a hunting and fishing show in Hanover, Germany in November of 1996. At the show the Alexander Lake Lodge had a giant booth and were showing a video of spawned out king salmon that they had snagged on the spawning grounds. He stated that he could send the pictures of that presentation of the king salmon with the milt running out of them. He informed the committee that at the Board of Fisheries meeting in Bristol Bay, they had testimony from the former chairman of the board and sport fish lodge owner Bud Hodson, that one French owned lodge was flying out about 9,200 pounds of king salmon daily to Anchorage to be processed. Mr. Umphenour stated that he owns a meat and fish processing plant in Fairbanks and he processes thousands of pounds of salmon a year for sport fishermen. He stated that one French airline pilot took home in excess of 3,100 pounds of smoked salmon to France from a two week trip to Alaska. He asserted that in the Sandy and Cinder River on the North side of the Alaskan Peninsula there is a group of Alien fishermen that are not set up as legitimate sport fish operators but they are bringing in dozens of people in and are fishing on the spawning grounds of the two small streams. The escapement objectives of these streams are less then 1500 king salmon per year and they are catching 50 percent of these goals, putting the small systems in jeopardy. Number 0588 MR. UMPHENOUR stated that in the Chignik area there are a group of alien sport fishermen called the "moonies" that are causing resource problems. He stated that the problem is that the aliens can't speak English or pretend not to be able to speak English. There is a definite problem with these aliens and it is an issue of conservation. The board is closing spawning grounds for conservation purposes because of the alien sport fishermen. Number 0604 MR. UMPHENOUR referred to Section 2 and he stated that he has talked to the "detachment commander of every detachment of state troopers fish and wildlife protection in the state." This would be a good enforcement tool for the Department of Public Safety, currently, if the department suspects that someone is catching over their bag limit, they would have to get a search warrant from the judge in order to look at the records regarding the issue. Number 0618 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN asked what he thought about the catch and release idea. Number 0619 MR. UMPHENOUR replied that he did not like that idea because it would cause people to target fish on the spawning grounds and no one knows how productive a released fish is on the spawning grounds after that trauma. Number 0625 RAY DEBARDELABEN, Sport Guide, testified via teleconference from Fairbanks in support of HB 483. He stated that he has seen countless numbers of nonresident aliens taking more of their share of kings. He stated that he has watched them at the mouth of Lake Creek catch fish send them off to be processed and come back the same day to catch more. He said "Probably 80 of 90 percent of the violations are coming from the nonresident aliens on the over taking of fish." He stated that the has also more then a dozen boat accidents per year out at Lake Creek because they have no experience in driving a boat. He stated that he did not think the catch and release system is a good idea as the alien sport fishermen want to take fish home and they need an incentive to come over here. Number 0651 REUBEN HANKE, Owner, Guide Camp, testified via teleconference from Fairbanks in favor of HB 483. He stated that he has had a lot of experience with alien sport fishermen. They tend to come to a camp fish one time and then go rent a boat. He stated that they usually have a hard enough time conveying to the person that they want to rent the boat nonetheless trying to figure out how to operate the boat or to be aware of the safety concerns. He stated that the Kenai River is fairly hectic place to fish especially when people are not familiar with the rules of the road. He stated that habitat degradation is also occurring as a result because they can not read the signs and are fishing in areas where they are not supposed to be fishing. He stated that it is an enforcement nightmare. He stated that the nonresident alien sport fishermen will not come if a catch and release system is in place. He stated that everyone is entitled to take their limit. A catch and release system will have an economic impact on the state. He stated that he is in favor of the processing section of the bill and adding a fishing license number requirement on their forms should not cause any kind of problem for those people. He stated that it would help enforcement. TAPE 98-15, SIDE B Number 0001 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN stated that his safety concerns are valid. He asked the rest of the people who are going to testify tonight to also submit their concerns or facts in writing in order to build a case based upon the legal opinion of being able to determine that there is a compelling reason to put the restrictions on the alien sport fishermen. Number 0035 ALAN LEMASTER, testified via teleconference from Gakona that there have been violations in Gakona that have gone unchecked for several years. He stated that if we can't check foreigners whose over fishing with rules that we have now, more rules might not help, since there is not the enforcement that is needed. He stated that he is concerned over the wording in the second section because as a guide, in the event he has a client on the river and he goes king salmon fishing, fillets the salmon, and ships it home, according to the bill he has then become a processor and that will then cost him $490 per year for his processing permit. He stated that as a guide he does that as a service for the clients and does not make money off of it. If the guides do not help get clients get the fish home they do not have a reason to go fishing. He stated that 40 percent of the time he has to assist his clients in getting the fish home. He asked if his understanding of the bill was correct. Number 0097 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN replied that they would have to go at look at that again. MR. LEMASTER replied that he would appreciate if someone were to take a closer look because it could read that way and someone may be fined for just doing a courtesy to their guests. Number 0109 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN asked if he would be opposed as a guide to having the same reporting requirements that a processor would have but without the fee. MR. LEMASTER stated that he has been discussing that with other guides and this year they will keep a log on every fish caught and kept. CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN asked how he felt about catch and release. Number 0134 MR. LEMASTER replied that they promote catch and release every chance they get because the fishery is extremely fragile so as a result of that thinking, the Department of Fish and Game took away 30 or 40 percent of the fishing days last year and then they had the biggest year they have ever had. He stated that he does not think the department has good science to back up the rules and regulations that they make. He pointed out that some of this record keeping may help them. He stated as far as catch and release mandate with the alien sport fishermen, they do not usually use guides. He stated that if the department can't catch six Germans that are camped out in the same spot for 2 weeks that are taking 1,000 pounds of filleted fish out, he did not know if catch and release is going to do any good. He thought people should have the opportunity to catch a fish. He stated that most of the abuse is to the red salmon fishery, because 3 reds can be taken each day and it is really hard to tell how many fish they have or how long they have been fishing since they have two or three locations where they have freezers. He stated that years ago he allowed alien sport fishermen to freeze their salmon in his freezer and they went home with several hundred pounds of red salmon. It is hard to determine what it is that they are doing because they are in Alaksa for so long. He stated that they could have also been keeping fish in someone else's freezer as well. He pointed out that they get $65 a pound for salmon in Germany. Without adequate enforcement of all these rules will not do any good. Number 0202 BUD HODSON, Owner, Sport Fishing Lodge; Former Chairman, Board of Fisheries; Former Chairman, Guide Charter Task Force, testified via teleconference from Anchorage that it is an enforcement and fairness issue to create a level playing field. He stated that regarding the enforcement issue it is very difficult to go up to a group of aliens who do not speak English or pretend not to, and be able to get an answer from them. He stated that it is easy for them to keep double bag limits by fishing in the morning send those fish to be processed and then go back out in the afternoon and harvest more. He stated that enforcement wise, it is hard to sort it all out as far as when they arrived and which fish is theirs. Their response is to just shake their heads, therefore, he asked how is it possible to make a case. He stated that operators come over from Europe and set up camp and are in business yet they have no business license or a workmen's compensation policy, they don't pay taxes or have U.S. Coastguard licenses etc. He stated that he is offended by this as an operator, as he has to adhere to all these regulations and they do not. He stated that as an operator if his guides break regulations or if his clients break laws he could be held liable. The alien sport fishermen in the same position are not held responsible. Number 0241 MR. HODSON stated that if Europeans are required to have licensed guides that speak English an enforcement officer can go and actually make a case on some of this stuff. He stated that in regard to catch and release he does not see a reason to penalize all Europeans, the goal should be to enforce the bag limits to create a level playing field where enforcement can do their job. He stated his concern is that the minute he is called a processor and according to the bill he would be because he does fillet and freeze the salmon, the Department of Economic Conservation would then want him to meet all the requirements of a fish processor. He stated that every time there is a new regulation on the industry there is a liability to not break the regulations. It becomes almost impossible not to. He gave an example of a problem with the U.S. Department of Fish and Wildlife because a guide forgot to have his registration in his possession he might lose four operating permits. He stated that there are government agencies out there that are trying to hammer them on the most minute things. He stated that the processing requirement is questionable. He stated that they do not accept anybody else's fish, just their clients and it is as a courtesy of the charter. Number 0322 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN asked if the processors section becomes law would he comfortable with it if there was an exception for lodges but they were required to maintain the same records. MR. HODSON replied that he would not have any problem with that. It is already in regulation that the Department of Fish and Game can get reporting records from any lodge. He stated that a fish processor does not have to register as a fishing guide and they are not required by law to report. Number 0336 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN asked if he would give some thought on what the language would be to exempt lodges and operators from the processing requirements. MR. HODSON replied that he would. Number 0344 KEVIN DELANY, Director, Division of Sport Fish, Alaska Department of Fish and Game, testified via teleconference from Anchorage that the bottom line is that the enforcement effort afforded to the sport fisheries in this state is inadequate. There is not enough manpower, there are 470,000 anglers in the state annually and 15 to 17 thousand of these are foreign nationals. They are easy to spot and are easy to see. He stated that this legislation is to try and go to the root. He reiterated the need for a statutory foundation for sport fish guiding and more enforcement. He stated that he appreciated the committee's efforts and would work with the committee. He stated the statutory finding should lay out what guides are what they do what the penalties are what reporting requirements need to be in place. Number 0406 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN asked if there were any more comments. Hearing none, he stated that HB 483 will be held over. ADJOURNMENT CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN adjourned the House Special Committee on Fisheries meeting at 6:15 P.M.