HOUSE SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON FISHERIES April 7, 1997 5:01 p.m. MEMBERS PRESENT Representative Alan Austerman, Chairman Representative Ivan Ivan, Vice Chairman Representative Scott Ogan Representative Mark Hodgins Representative Gene Kubina MEMBERS ABSENT All members present COMMITTEE CALENDAR CONFIRMATION HEARINGS ON THE GOVERNOR'S APPOINTMENTS TO: Board of Fisheries Larry J. Engel Robert Dersham - CONFIRMATIONS ADVANCED (* First public hearing) PREVIOUS ACTION No previous action to record WITNESS REGISTER LARRY ENGEL, Appointee Alaska Board of Fisheries P.O. Box 197 Palmer, Alaska 99645 Telephone: (907) 745-4132 POSITION STATEMENT: Testified regarding his appointment to the Board of Fisheries. ED DERSHAM, Appointee Alaska Board of Fisheries P.O. Box 537 Anchor Point, Homer 99556 Telephone: (907) 235-5555 POSITION STATEMENT: Testified regarding his appointment to the Board of Fisheries. DALE BONDURANT HC 1 Box 1197 Soldotna, Alaska 99669 Telephone: (907) 262-0818 POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of both appointees for confirmation. REPRESENTATIVE GAIL PHILLIPS Alaska State Legislature Capitol Building, Room 208 Juneau, Alaska 99801 Telephone: (907) 465-2689 POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of Ed Dersham's appointment to the Board of Fisheries. ACTION NARRATIVE TAPE 97-16, SIDE A Number 001 CHAIRMAN ALAN AUSTERMAN called the House Special Committee on Fisheries meeting to order at 5:01 p.m. Members present at the call to order were Representatives Austerman, Ivan, Ogan and Hodgins. Representative Kubina arrived at 5:10 p.m. CONFIRMATION HEARING: LARRY ENGEL, BOARD OF FISHERIES Number 029 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN announced the committee would hear confirmation hearings on two appointees to the Board of Fisheries, Mr. Larry Engel and Mr. Ed Dersham. Number 098 LARRY ENGEL, Appointee, Alaska Board of Fisheries, testified via teleconference from Matsu, stated that he was born and raised in Washington. He was a crew member in his families commercial fishing business. He has lived in Alaska since 1958. He stated that in 1958, he was stationed in the Navy, in Kodiak and had his first involvement with the Territorial Department of Fisheries, as the base wildlife liaison. In 1960 he started to work for the Department of Fish and Game until 1992 when he retired. After that he worked part time via a professional business agreement with the borough on fisheries matters in the Matsu valley. He stated he was appointed to the Board of Fisheries in 1994 by Governor Hickel, and served his three year term as chairman of the Board of Fisheries. Number 259 MR. ENGEL stated his reason for wanting to serve on the Board of Fisheries is because the fisheries has been a part of his life for over 30 years. It has been good to him, and he has the time now to give back, in a voluntary capacity, what he has received from the fisheries. He believes that he has the skills, ability, interest, desire and knowledge, to serve intelligently on the Board of Fisheries and make the difficult, but reasoned unbiased decisions. He felt that his record reflects that he has done this over the past three years. He stated that he has probably made decisions on over 1,000 fisheries proposals during the three years and has spent more than 200 days in session. He stated that he has traveled throughout the state, to the Yukon River and the Kuskokwim River to become familiar with the commercial and subsistence fisheries, to Bristol Bay during the peak of their fishery and made contacts with at least a half of dozen fish processing owners and plants. He stated that he has been to the Copper River to become familiar with the personal use fisheries, has made numerous trips to the Kenai Peninsula to observe that fishery and to the Alaska Peninsula, to places like King Cove, Sand Point, False Pass to discuss fisheries issues with the residents. He stated that these are examples of his desire to do a good job. Number 459 REPRESENTATIVE MARK HODGINS asked how he would balance the commercial fishing verses the sport fishing on the Kenai Peninsula, Cook Inlet. Number 487 MR. ENGEL replied that he doesn't know that he could balance them but he does know how he deals with those issues, in a reasoned and fair manner, to make allocation decisions, which are the hard decisions to make. He stated that conservation decisions are very easy to make if you have sufficient information to make those judgements. He stated that he thinks Representative Hodgins is talking about allocation which is an issue in the fisheries business that evolves through time, there are changes, different gear types and other users such as subsistence. He stated that to deal fairly and realize that times change, is what he attempts to do. By listening to the concerns of the various user groups in the Cook Inlet areas, as well as else where in the state and to take those concerns very seriously and then try to deal fairly in that regulatory process with those concerns. Number 514 REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS asked how long he has been on the Board of Fisheries. Number 585 MR. ENGEL replied that he has served one term, he was appointed in February 1994, by Governor Hickel. Number 602 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN noted for the record that Representative Kubina was present. Number 602 REPRESENTATIVE SCOTT OGAN stated that the trawlers in the Bering Sea routinely have the bar coded tags taken off the King Salmon on the by-catch, but nothing is being done with those to put them together in any kind of comprehensive study with the by-catches and the origin of the by-catch. He asked if his appointment was confirmed, would he be willing to take a look at the information to see if it could be made available to get a better handle on possible impact on some of the King Salmon fisheries in Cook Inlet. Number 661 MR. ENGEL responded that the answer is yes. He stated that he would extend it even further than just Cook Inlet. There are some genuine concerns with the by-catch of King Salmon in the Bering Sea relative to places like the Yukon River and Kuskokwim River, big King Salmon producers. He stated that we are taking certain steps in that regard and that the management of those Bering Sea Fisheries fall under the North Pacific Fisheries Management Council and anything outside the three-mile limit of the state, fall for the most part, in their jurisdiction. He stated that the Board of Fisheries has recently met with the North Pacific Management Council and the Board of Fisheries has developed a committee of Board of Fisheries members to meet with three members from the council to look at issues, such as the King Salmon by-catch. There are a number of issues that we have mutual dealings with and concerns with. It is very healthy that we are working together and sharing information and analyzing the results. He stated that he is on the Board of Fisheries side of that committee that works with the North Pacific Fisheries Management Council. Number 758 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN asked if Mr. Engel was aware that the information was being collected but not being utilized. Number 467 MR. ENGEL replied that he is aware of it and it is a real sore spot with him. He stated that he has attended a number of North Pacific Fisheries Council meetings as an observer and at times as a representative of the Board of Fisheries. He stated that the Board of Fisheries has sent a resolution of concern to the North Pacific Fisheries Council regarding the salmon by-catch. He stated that chum salmon is also a by-catch in the Bering Sea. Number 790 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN asked if his understanding was correct that the Board of Fisheries did nothing about the possible commercial exploitation of sport caught fish by out of state residents with R/V's. Number 815 MR. ENGEL replied that it is partially correct. In the Board of Fisheries meeting in Ketchikan, a month ago, they did develop a seasonal bag limit for non-residents only. He stated that the Board had the same opportunity to do that for the Sockeye Salmon in the Kenai Peninsula and the board deferred action on that until next year, when it can be looked at in a more comprehensive manner for the entire state. CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN noted for the record that Representative Gail Phillips joined the committee. Number 895 REPRESENTATIVE GENE KUBINA stated that he witnessed Mr. Engel conducting the Board of Fisheries meetings in Cordova and thought he did a very good job. His constituents were pleased and felt that they were heard. He stated that the board spent hours and hours allowing the public to have the input. He stated that there was some controversy on where that meeting should be and the chairman made the decision to have a day of hearings in Fairbanks, a day in Glennallen and then had the full board meeting in Cordova. He stated that over all in his district, on all sides of the issue, Mr. Engel has been viewed very positively. Number 997 REPRESENTATIVE IVAN IVAN stated that in lower Kuskokwim, Bristol Bay, there is always an argument with False Pass on the interception of chums. He asked if he has had to make decisions on the issue. Number 1041 MR. ENGEL replied that this is probably one of the most complex and difficult issues facing the Board of Fisheries which is the interception of salmon in False Pass, the South Peninsula area and how that interception impacts other areas in Western Alaska. He stated that since he has been on the board he has taken many steps to try and reduce that interception. He stated that formally the people in the False Pass area fished during the entire month of June and July, the season ending in the fall, currently, they can only fish two weeks. The board has taken steps to balance out the needs of those people out there because their livelihood is almost totally dependent on the fishery wildlife resources as there are not many other opportunities for income. He stated that unfortunately there is not a great deal of information to make the types of decisions that we would like to make out there. He stated that it is the Board of Fisheries number one research demand or request, to the Department of Fish and Game, to give us a better understanding of what stalks the fish, when, where and the time of the passage of that area. He stated that there is progress in that regard, the board has information on Genetic Stock Identification (GSI), where the fish caught in the False Pass Area can be identified as to where they are going. He stated that he has been very conservative with the restrictions because those decisions have had to be made on fairly scant information. He stated that subsistence needs in Western Alaska are of extreme importance and it has been a driving force on his part to make some of the restrictions in that area even though he did not have all the information he would have liked, to have to make those informed decisions. Number 1203 REPRESENTATIVE IVAN stated that he would be interested if he could identify some of the shortcomings in the data from the Department of Fish and Game and if he could send that information. Number 1223 MR. ENGEL stated that he would be happy to do so. Number 1239 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN asked if Mr. Engel was aware that the wire- coding in the Deshka River was a dismal failure. Number 1254 MR. ENGEL replied that it has been a dismal failure. They have been unable to catch a significant number of fish, as it takes a lot of young fish to be wire-coded, to get the types of information they need when they later return as adults. He stated that he is pleased that the Department is continuing that program with the hatchery fish and there is a large number of fish tagged in the Willow Creek area and elsewhere in Cook Inlet. He stated that hopefully, with the by-catch information a understanding of the distribution of these fish in the Cook Inlet areas can make an informed decision. He stated that right now there is a blank as to the migration patterns, particularly in Cook Inlet, where the fish are rearing out and susceptible to harvest. Number 1299 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN stated that he just recently found out that it was a failure and has been waiting for the data to settle the disputes particularly in the area of the by-catch in the Shelikof Straights. He asked if it was feasible to do an enhancement project with King Salmon in the Deshka River. Number 1331 MR. ENGEL stated that it was possible but we need to figure out what is causing the problem before we invest a lot of money in hatcheries. Four or five years ago the run was extremely healthy and all of a sudden it has gone sick. He stated that we need to identify what the factors are, rather than pouring a lot of hatchery money into it. REPRESENTATIVE OGAN suggested that he would gladly pay $10 for the King Salmon tag and with the support of the Board of Fisheries, if there would be some enhancement of the Deshka River. He stated that wire-coded fish can be put in there to figure out the dispute of where the fish are being intercepted. Number 1405 MR. ENGEL replied that it would be one of the ways to find the information needed, by looking at the hatchery fish as a research vehicle and would concur with something like that. He stated he did go over to the Deshka River to visit the camps and look at the trapping devices. He felt the Department of Fish and Game's frustration of not being able to catch the fish. He stated that he was aware of this right from the start of the project. REPRESENTATIVE OGAN stated that he wished he was. Number 1464 ED DERSHAM, Appointee, Alaska Board of Fisheries, testified via teleconference from Homer, that he was from western Oregon, graduated from the University of Oregon, spent 15 years working for the U.S. Department of Justice and retired in 1984. He stated that he was also a part-time sport fish guide in Alaska on the Deshka River from 1977 to 1984. He stated since that time he and his wife have owned and operated a sport fishing lodge out of Anchor Point. The fishing takes place on the lower east side of Cook Inlet, he stated that we take fishermen out for King Salmon, Silver Salmon and halibut. He stated that he is a past president of the Anchor Point Charter Association and the South Peninsula Sportsmen's Association and have worked quite a bit in joint efforts with commercial fishermen in the lower Cook Inlet area. Number 1567 MR. DERSHAM stated that his reason for wanting to be on the Board of Fisheries, is because he has been involved in fishing all his life and he has a desire to give something back. He stated that he is concerned about the conservation issues facing the fisheries of Alaska and the future that it is facing. He stated that he has a desire to add to the effort that is already going on with the current members of the board. Number 1606 REPRESENTATIVE KUBINA stated that Mr. Dersham has an extensive working knowledge in the halibut charter business and there is a lot of controversy in the state with allocation between commercial and sport fisheries. He asked him to talk about it. Number 1634 MR. DERSHAM replied that he has been involved in that issue and he forgot to mention that he has appointed to the Halibut Charter Working Group of the North Pacific Fisheries Management Council. He stated that he has been involved in that issue for the last three years. He feels comfortable with the current status of the negotiations and the current position of the council on this issue. He stated that they are going to be taking more information on April 14th in Anchorage and then plan for final action in June. He stated that he is not sure what that action was going to be but he is comfortable with the information that has been gathered as well as the process and that the final decision will work for everyone involved. Number 1691 REPRESENTATIVE KUBINA stated that living in the area, Mr. Dersham must have a good idea of the problems that the Kenai River Drainage has with set netters and guides on the river and asked if he had any ideas on how to deal with that situation. Number 1704 MR. DERSHAM replied that conservation issues are fairly easy. He said "In the Anchorage meeting in early March we dealt with a Coho Salmon issue that involved all the user groups but since there were conversation aspects that made our decision aspects a littler easier and we wound up attempting to cut back each fishery in the in a percentage reasonably similar to the percentage of the cohos that it was already taking." He said that this meant that the guided fishery was the one taking the biggest hit. Strictly allocation decisions are more difficult. He stated that there was a salt water King Salmon issue that impacted the fishery on the sport side and he had several meetings at advisory committee locations where members of the department, members of the committee and user groups came to a consensus position to the Board of Fisheries. He stated he is in favor of the approach of having as much input as possible to help the board in its work. Number 1812 REPRESENTATIVE KUBINA stated that he appreciated that answer and knows that there are a lot of hard decisions to be made. He stated that it takes some real statesmen to be on the board and he hopes that Mr. Dersham will be one of them. Number 1834 DALE BONDURANT, testified via teleconference from Kenai, that he supports both Larry Engel and Ed Dersham for confirmation before the Board of Fisheries. He stated that he has known Larry Engel for several years and that by seeing him work as chairmen of the Board and thinks that Mr. Engel has shown a lot of professional knowledge and is respected in his decisions in fish resource management regulations. He stated that he has not known Mr. Dersham for very long but he does approve of his approach in instructing his charter clients to use common sense in self limiting their personal use harvest. He stated it is good that he tells the clients to limit themselves to want they will use. Number 1921 REPRESENTATIVE GAIL PHILLIPS stated that she supports Ed Dersham for the Board of Fisheries and has worked with him and his wife on many different issues throughout the time she has been involved in the legislature. She stated that Mr. Dersham, through and through, is an Alaskan and is concerned about many things that occur in Alaska. He and his wife are good business people, they run a good business, are fair to their clients and will bring these qualities to the Board of Fisheries. She stated that she has seen Mr. Dersham work in extremely tense situations, involving extremely irate people in issues, involving the lower Kenai Peninsula and he always get things on an even keel and has been able to bring consensus between a lot of different people. She stated that this is one of the best appointments to the Board of Fisheries and would encourage all members to support it and would be glad to personally talk with any members. Number 1986 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN stated that he supports both members and does not have a problem with forwarding there names to the Joint Senate/House Confirmation Hearings. Number 2007 REPRESENTATIVE KUBINA made a motion that the appointment of Larry Engel be forwarded to the Joint Session for consideration and confirmation. Number 2029 REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS objected. Number 2052 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN asked if there was discussion. REPRESENTATIVE KUBINA stated that it was clear that the committee is just forwarding the appointee, not endorsing the appointee. Number 2060 REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS stated that he objected for purposes of a vote asked what the process was. Number 2068 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN replied that the process is that we move the names forward for other confirmation hearings. REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS stated that he objected as a means of having a vote on it, like passing a bill out of committee. CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN stated that all we are doing is moving names out of the committee to a hearing and will have the opportunity to vote at the Joint Session. Number 2071 REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS stated that he would remove his objection. Number 2077 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN asked if there were any further objections, hearing none, it was so ordered. Number 2083 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN made a motion to move that the appointment of Ed Dersham be forward to the Joint Session for confirmation. CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN asked if there was an objection, hearing none, it was so ordered. ADJOURNMENT Number 2112 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN adjourned the Special Committee on Fisheries at 5:39 p.m.