HOUSE SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON FISHERIES August 5, 1993 10:00 a.m. MEMBERS PRESENT Representative Carl E. Moses, Chairman Representative Cliff Davidson Representative Gail Phillips MEMBERS ABSENT Representative Harley Olberg, Vice-Chairman Representative Irene Nicholia COMMITTEE CALENDAR Overview: Reauthorizations of the Magnusson Act (MA), the Marine Mammal Protection Act (MMPA), and the Endangered Species Act (ESA). WITNESS REGISTER CARL ROSIER, Commissioner Alaska Department of Fish and Game P.O. Box 25526 Juneau, Alaska 99802-5526 Phone: 465-4100 POSITION STATEMENT: Update on Magnusson Act, Marine Mammals Protection Act, Endangered Species Act and details of the citizens advisory committee. DAVID BENTON, Director External and International Fisheries Affairs Alaska Department of Fish and Game P.O. Box 25526 Juneau, Alaska 99802-5526 Phone: 465-4100 POSITION STATEMENT: Update on Marine Mammals Protection Act. RON SOMERVILLE, Special Assistant to the Commissioner Alaska Department of Fish and Game P.O. Box 25526 Juneau, Alaska 99802-5526 Phone: 465-4100 POSITION STATEMENT: Update on Endangered Species Act. JERRY MCCUNE, President United Fishermen of Alaska 211 Fourth Street, Suite 112 Juneau, Alaska 99801 Phone: 586-2820 POSITION STATEMENT: Expressed the need for delisting, after recovery, of species on the Endangered Species Act. CHRIS BLACKBURN, Executive Director Alaska Groundfish Data Bank P.O. Box 2298 Kodiak, Alaska 99615 Phone: 486-3033 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported a revolving membership in the citizens advisory committee for different Acts. LINDA KOZAK, Executive Director Kodiak Longline Vessel Owners Association 326 Center Street, #202 Kodiak, Alaska 99615 Phone: 486-3781 POSITION STATEMENT: Supported the current composition of the board for the Magnusson Act, and the fee structure. KARL OHLS, Executive Director Western Alaska Fisheries Development Association 725 Christiansen Drive Anchorage, Alaska 99501 Phone: 279-6519 POSITION STATEMENT: State needs the citizens advisory committee. DALE KELLEY, Executive Director Alaska Trollers Association 130 Seward Street, Suite 505 Juneau, Alaska 99801 Phone: 586-9400 POSITION STATEMENT: Suggested that the composition of the citizens advisory committee should change among the Acts being discussed. MOLLY MCCAMMON, Fisheries Committee Staff Representative Carl Moses Alaska State Legislature State Capitol, Room 204 Juneau, Alaska 99801 Phone: 465-4451 POSITION STATEMENT: Asked how ADF&G will work with the citizens advisory committee to develop a statewide position on issues. ACTION NARRATIVE TAPE 93-24, SIDE A Number 000 CHAIRMAN CARL MOSES called the meeting to order from Anchorage at 10:10 a.m. and noted that the meeting was teleconferenced statewide. He noted that Representative Gail Phillips was in Homer and Representative Cliff Davidson was in Kodiak, both on teleconference. CHAIRMAN MOSES noted that in March 1993 the committee received an extensive briefing on numerous issues pending in Washington, D.C., which would have a significant impact on Alaskan fisheries. He said these are primarily the reauthorizations of the Endangered Species Act (ESA), the Magnusson Act (MA), and the Marine Mammals Protection Act (MMPA). During the past session, the legislature appropriated $400,000 to the Department of Fish & Game to develop an information and lobbying campaign on these issues before Congress. Number 035 CARL ROSIER, COMMISSIONER, ALASKA DEPARTMENT OF FISH & GAME (ADF&G), testifying via teleconference from Juneau, introduced his staff and gave a briefing on the progress of each of the reauthorizations. He noted a substantial amount of activity with each of the Acts. The goal of this meeting, he stated, is a strategy for the development for a public citizens advisory committee that the department can continue to work with. The department has been trying to determine the position of the Clinton Administration toward the reauthorization of the Magnusson Act. He stated that no appointments have been made, but he was able to meet, in June of 1993, with the Director of the National Marine Fisheries Service (NMFS). Commissioner Rosier stated that during the meeting, the issue most important to the NMFS was the development of a fee schedule to help pay for the management program associated with the Magnusson Act. Other than this paper, he stated, the department has seen no additional documents from the Clinton Administration with regards to the Magnusson Act. In dealing with the Congressional hearings, Commissioner Rosier noted the most important point that should be discussed today was the composition of the North Pacific Council. This issue was raised by Washington state and they expressed to the House Merchant Marine & Fisheries Committee meeting on June 16, 1993, their concern about the problems with the council and their desire for additional members to be appointed from the states of Washington and Oregon. COMMISSIONER ROSIER stated that another concern was the volume of fish involved in the community development quota (CDQ) program. The Department of Fish & Game has had an excellent lobbying effort by the CDQ participants in Washington, D.C., and have had significant impact there. He further noted the department appreciated the help and would continue to support the CDQ program and the protection of it. COMMISSIONER ROSIER noted other areas of concern that were voiced in the House Merchant Marine & Fisheries Committee meeting included the clarification of state jurisdictions. A portion of this concern came from the East Coast and a bit from the West Coast. He said the conflict of interest issue is alive, and there have been questions asked to congressionals, and the ADF&G continues to stand firmly behind the modifications made to the Act in 1990 in terms of strength of reporting by the numbers and relationship to the council. COMMISSIONER ROSIER advised members that he did present testimony at the House Merchant Marine & Fisheries Committee meeting on HR780 on June 16, 1993. He spoke of strengthening the conservation standards of the Act, asking for the support of Congress in terms of the nation's coastal communities and shoreside processing, and asking for additional measures to strengthen the council's process. The department has that testimony on file, if anyone wants a copy. COMMISSIONER ROSIER further advised that the next scheduled meeting for the House Merchant Marine & Fisheries Committee would be on August 12, 1993, in Anchorage. The ADF&G expects markup on the House side as early as fall 1993 on HR780. On the Senate side, the Senate Commerce, Science & Transportation Committee, Senator Stevens and Senator Hollings tentatively scheduled field hearings for August 19, 20 and 21 in Dillingham, Kodiak and Ketchikan. Senate markup would be expected in the fall of 1993, yet further work, such as passage on the Magnusson Act, would probably not be until early 1994. CHAIRMAN MOSES suggested that the ADF&G go on with discussion of the MMPA and then take questions. Number 142 DAVID BENTON, DIRECTOR, ALASKA DEPARTMENT OF FISH & GAME, testifying from Juneau, noted that the National Marine Fisheries Service (NMFS) put together a proposal on the MMPA that would establish a regime to govern fisheries and marine mammals interactions. In response to that proposal, a group of environmental and commercial fishing organizations joined together and negotiated a different proposal to submit to Congress. Many Alaskan groups were involved in the process and an agreed upon compromise was put together. This document has been provided to members of Congress and the NMFS. The NMFS was critical of several items in the proposal. Some of the major points in the proposal by the fishing industry and conservation groups includes, first, if the MMPA is not reauthorized by the end of September 1993, the authorization for fisheries to take marine mammals expires and the potential exists to shut down some, or all of the fisheries in the nation. The conservation fishing industry proposal does many things, like remove the expiration date, and authorizes the taking of marine mammals by commercial fishing operations. Unlike the NMFS proposal, it attempts to identify stocks of marine mammals, based on some fairly simple criteria, which are interacting with fisheries that are in trouble. The NMFS proposal had very general criteria and in essence would apply a very strict removal rate to fisheries that placed several fisheries under more severe restrictions than need be. MR. BENTON also stated that the conservationists and fishing groups developed different criteria and tried to focus on those stocks that were genuinely in trouble. Out of 63 stocks of marine mammals around the country, 12 or 15 would qualify as critical stocks. The NMFS tested 49 stocks, and identified 31 as critical stocks. This effort was successful as it focused on the problem area. MR. BENTON then stated that there would be a conservation team consisting of agency, federal & state representatives, fishing and environmental group representatives, and all interests to that particular stock. This team would be responsible for preparing a plan for mitigating the factors that are causing that stock to go down. The Secretary of State would have to implement the plan. This plan is much more favorable because in the past, stocks have been depleted or endangered and then there are very stringent legal requirements that must be met. MR. BENTON noted the other major item in the proposal is no nationwide permit for taking marine mammals; it is a general authorization. He said the NMFS wants a nationwide permit system where every fishing vessel has to register, get a permit and pay a fee. The ADF&G feels that this method is overly bureaucratic and burdensome. The Senate plans to hear from a coalition of environmental groups, fishing industry representatives, Senate staff and NMFS staff on August 9 and 10, 1993. They will attempt to work out the differences between the proposals. The ADF&G can expect to see a Senate bill early this fall, which hopefully will get passed and on to the House. If this does not happen, there are plans to rollover some kind of authorization until a bill can be passed. Number 230 RON SOMERVILLE, SPECIAL ASSISTANT TO THE COMMISSIONER, ALASKA DEPARTMENT OF FISH & GAME, testifying from Juneau, expressed his concern with not reaching the September 1993 deadline. Senator Stevens is prepared to ask for an extension, and Congressman Young has agreed to introduce legislation to ask for an extension. COMMISSIONER ROSIER advised members that ADF&G has prepared issue papers on all of the Acts. If anyone needs copies, contact Ron Somerville at 465-6139. MR. SOMERVILLE advised the committee that there have been four pieces of legislation which identify the extremes in the Endangered Species Act (ESA). Two of these drastically modify the ESA. Issues that affect Alaska are the outcome of the timber summit in Oregon that President Clinton attended this year, and the recommendations of his Administration. The spotted owl outcome will also have an impact on Columbia River salmon. Secretary Babbitt has expressed interest in bulk listings to clear some of the 1500 species backlogged for potential listing. MR. SOMERVILLE stated that the major points of contention with the ESA are: the definition of an endangered species; listing of stellar sea lions as threatened and the potential listing of harbor seals; listing of the North Pacific coho stock and, the difference between threatened and endangered species. Number 250 MR. SOMERVILLE noted that when created, Congress intended there to be two distinct separations between endangered and threatened. A threatened species has the potential of becoming endangered. The agencies who regulate these listings have lumped the two together in the past, and now are talking of creating a third new group of species that are close to threatened. This will give the federal government even more regulatory authority. The ADF&G wants to see a firm provision in the next bill on delisting. After a species has recovered, it must be delisted. The ADF&G also wants a provision for incidental taking of endangered species. There are other, minor concerns that are covered in the issue papers. MR. SOMERVILLE advised members that the ADF&G has seen no movement of the ESA in Congress. Passage probably will not occur until 1995. The environmental community has indicated that they do not care if the ESA is reauthorized at all. It can stay as it is, even without an extension. The problem is that it may not receive funding. MR. SOMERVILLE stated the ADF&G is particularly interested in Section 7, dealing with incidental taking for chinook salmon. This issue emphasizes a weakness in the Act, which is permitting. Section 7 covers permitting from federal agency to federal agency. Section 10 is the process for state agencies to get an incidental take permit. It is a very complicated process and takes upwards of two years to obtain a permit under Section 10. Number 378 COMMISSIONER ROSIER explained that there is involvement with Washington state cohos in the gulf area. This is usually a very small number, 40-60 fish. Alaska is being asked to modify its fisheries for a very small number of fish. MR. SOMERVILLE reiterated that this is a very complex issue and there has been litigation established already. Another point that must be addressed in the ESA is that after a species has been listed for two years, a recovery plan must be made and implemented. Number 509 JERRY MCCUNE, PRESIDENT, UNITED FISHERMEN OF ALASKA (UFA), testifying from Juneau, expressed that no one knows the optimum number of the species, such as sea otters, that are currently on the endangered species list. He raised the question of when do you delist? MR. SOMERVILLE stated that "the issue of describing optimum species population has been one that the agency has fought since the Act was created. The federal agencies make no effort to find out what that optimum number is until the species is on its way to being declared `depleted'. Even if they knew what the optimum population was, they have no authority to do anything about it. Natives have recently been allowed to take sea otters and other marine mammals for subsistence purposes. Relative to the ESA, it's a pure biological assessment whether or not a species is declared as threatened. There has been a recovery plan thrown around for the spotted owl." CHAIRMAN MOSES asked if there were any questions from Juneau, Valdez, Palmer, Petersburg, Sitka or Kodiak. Number 615 CHRIS BLACKBURN, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE ALASKA GROUNDFISH DATA BANK, testifying from Kodiak, complimented the ADF&G on its issue papers and in keeping everyone informed. In reading the papers, the reference to ecosystem management relates to all three Acts. TAPE 93-24, SIDE B Number 000 MS. BLACKBURN further said the issues of waste, economic discards and by-catch are not mentioned anywhere in the Department's issue papers. It will be difficult to obtain funding for research in these areas if they are not mentioned in the issue papers. The trawl fleet is currently funding research to try to decrease waste and incidental by- catch. CHAIRMAN MOSES asked if the department had any comments. COMMISSIONER ROSIER stated that both points were excellent, and should be an integral part of the department's testimony. MR. BENTON said that the ADF&G has been working hard in Washington, D.C., to increase the National Marine Fisheries Service budget. Continued research depends on the funding received through Washington, D.C. Number 026 REPRESENTATIVE CLIFF DAVIDSON, testifying from Kodiak, stated that perhaps more research could be funded at the state level. COMMISSIONER ROSIER said the ADF&G budget has been steadily decreasing for the last few years. There are several priorities, but perhaps the state could push more on the federal agencies for assistance. The programs that Chris Blackburn spoke of would be very expensive. REPRESENTATIVE DAVIDSON asked if it would behoove the state to do an issue paper outlining programs that the federal government should be working on. Perhaps the state should point out the deficiencies and lack of federal funding. Number 060 LINDA KOZAK, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, KODIAK LONGLINE VESSEL OWNERS ASSOCIATION (KLVOA), testifying from Kodiak, emphasized that the conservation element of the Magnusson Act had to be strengthened. The definition of economic deficiencies must be more clear. The North Pacific Council's role must also be strengthened, as far as the conflict of interest, the current wording of the Act is adequate. Members of the council need to be experienced. She said the KLVOA supports the current structure of the council. The KLVOA also supports the current fee structure, and the establishment of a citizens advisory committee. Number 092 KARL OHLS, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, WESTERN ALASKA FISHERIES DEVELOPMENT ASSOCIATION (WAFTA), stated that WAFTA was comprised of four of the community development quota (CDQ) groups in Western Alaska. He expressed his support for a citizens advisory committee to establish a coordinated Alaskan position. The WAFTA has been working on a Magnusson Act position to endorse conservation, endorse the present membership of the council, and to discuss the CDQ program. There are some critical comments about CDQs from groups outside Alaska so WAFTA wants to be sure that Congress has all of the correct facts on the results of the CDQ program, to date. CHAIRMAN MOSES suggested that the department respond to the future of citizen involvement. Number 120 MR. SOMERVILLE advised the committee that the department needs a mechanism for ongoing information that is broadly represented by industry and state people. This committee would help the department in developing positions and for consistency in lobbying Washington, D.C. The commissioner will be looking at commercial fishermen and conservation groups to talk about the three Acts. The bulk of the interest, however, will come from the commercial fishing industry. The optimal number of members is seven to nine. This number will work well for teleconferenced meetings, as Representative Moses got $300,000 to apply to the entire reauthorization process. Of that amount, $50,000 to $75,000 will go to support the citizens advisory committee. The department will send out suggestion forms and nomination forms for the committee that should be returned to the commissioner's office by August 20, 1993. CHAIRMAN MOSES thanked Mr. Somerville and asked if anyone had questions. REPRESENTATIVE DAVIDSON nominated CHRIS BLACKBURN and LINDA KOZAK for the committee. CHAIRMAN MOSES asked Commissioner Rosier how he would like to take nominations for the seats on the committee. COMMISSIONER ROSIER suggested that each of the groups make its nomination, with some background information to the department in writing. CHAIRMAN MOSES emphasized that the committee should probably not exceed nine, and told everyone to send recommendations to the department. REPRESENTATIVE GAIL PHILLIPS asked if any legislative members should be on the committee, or if it should just be volunteers who could work with the fisheries committee. CHAIRMAN MOSES said that it could be considered, and asked the commissioner for his ideas. COMMISSIONER ROSIER felt that an ad hoc group would be best, and they could work directly with the fisheries committee to keep everyone informed on a regular basis. REPRESENTATIVE PHILLIPS stated that the committee would be better represented with more industry people. She then asked if the department had any criteria, or any synopsis of what the committee will be doing and the amount of time involved. Such a synopsis would be helpful to have. COMMISSIONER ROSIER advised that little time had gone into details at that point, and that suggestions would be helpful. There would be a substantial time commitment. There was no synopsis at this time, but one would be forwarded as soon as possible. DALE KELLEY, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, ALASKA TROLLERS ASSOCIATION testifying from Juneau, asked if the composition of the committee would change, depending on which Act was being worked on. Some people are versed in one Act, and not another. COMMISSIONER ROSIER said that a changing composition is possible, and members may change between 1993 and 1994. There may also be overlap of members, between Acts. MR. McCUNE suggested that the membership between Acts may need to change, depending on expertise of members. MS. KELLEY asked if the committee was going to look at the Clean Water Act, or others that affect the fishing industry, or strictly the ESA, MMPA and MA. COMMISSIONER ROSIER advised listeners that the committee would focus only on the three Acts up for reauthorization, but the suggestion was good, and perhaps it would be considered. MS. KELLEY suggested that the committee should involve the environmental community, as well as the sportfish interests. MS. BLACKBURN supported the idea of revolving membership of the committee among the three Acts. CHAIRMAN MOSES advised that to cover all interests of the state, and still keep the committee at a reasonable number would be very difficult. MOLLY McCAMMON, FISHERIES COMMITTEE STAFF FOR CHAIRMAN MOSES, testifying from Juneau, asked the department for a brief description of the state's strategy to achieve the position that it will be taking through these working committees. If any position papers are written, she asked that the fisheries committee be informed and sent a copy. MR. SOMERVILLE advised members that the state will work with the citizens advisory committee to develop a position for the state, which will then be lobbied for in Washington, D.C. The department will also coordinate with the three Alaska delegation offices in Washington, D.C. CHAIRMAN MOSES asked if there were additional comments. Hearing none, the meeting adjourned at 11:28 a.m.