HOUSE SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON FISHERIES March 27, 1993 9:00 a.m. MEMBERS PRESENT Representative Carl E. Moses, Chairman Representative Harley Olberg, Vice-Chairman Representative Irene Nicholia Representative Cliff Davidson MEMBERS ABSENT Representative Gail Phillips OTHERS LEGISLATORS PRESENT Representative Jeannette James Representative Bill Williams Senator Fred Zharoff COMMITTEE CALENDAR Overview on Federal Fisheries Issues: State, Magnuson Fishery Conservation & Management Act, Marine Mammal Protection Act, Endangered Species Act, Pacific Salmon Treaty, and Glacier Bay Fishing WITNESS REGISTER Carl Rosier, Commissioner Alaska Department of Fish & Game 1255 W. 8th Street Juneau, AK 99801 Phone: 465-4100 Position Statement: Advised that the ADF&G may need additional funds for lobbying in Washington D.C. on federal acts Ron Somerville, Special Assistant to the Commissioner Alaska Department of Fish and Game P.O. Box 25526 Juneau, Alaska 99802-5526 Phone: 465-4100 Position Statement: Advised members bio-diversity is an upcoming issue in D.C. Rod Moore, Legislative Aide for Congressman Don E. Young House of Representatives 2331 Rayburn House Office Bldg. Washington D.C. 20515-0201 Phone: (202) 225-5765 Position Statement: Spoke about Congressman Young's proposed bill to allow commercial fishing in Glacier Bay David Benton, Director External and International Fisheries Affairs Alaska Department of Fish & Game 1255 W. 8th Street Juneau, AK 99801 Phone: 465-4100 Position Statement: Spoke briefly about fisheries management Richard "Rick" Lauber, Chairman North Pacific Fisheries Management Council Lobbyist, Pacific Seafood Processors Association 321 Highland Juneau, AK 99801 Phone: 586-6366 Position Statement: Advised that Norway and other countries are re-flagging Alaskan fishing vessels and re-using bottoms in order to commercially fish in Alaskan waters Bob Loescher, Executive Vice-President Sealaska Corporation One Sealaska Plaza Juneau, Alaska 99801 Phone: 586-1512 Position Statement: Advised of his work to correct Glacier Bay fishing problems caused by restrictive laws of the National Park Service Dale Kelley, Executive Director Alaska Trollers Association Coordinator, Allied Fishermen of Southeast Alaska Member, United Fishermen of Alaska 130 Seward Street, Suite 505 Juneau, AK 99801 Phone: 586-9400 Position Statement: Believed the local crab industry needs to be reviewed and more money is needed for surveys and studies in the industry John Sisk, Executive Director Southeast Alaska Conservation Council 419 Sixth Street, Suite 328 Juneau, Alaska 99801 Phone: 586-6942 Position Statement: Stated Glacier Bay waters are designated as a National Park yet are also crucial to commercial and subsistence fishermen Suzzanne Ludicello, Representative Center for Marine Conservation No Address Available Position Statement: Discussed issue of co-management of resources between tribes and the federal government Larry Merculieff, Vice-Chair Indigenous Peoples Council on Marine Mammals P.O. Box 901 St. Paul Island, Alaska 99669 Phone: 546-2331 Position Statement: Outlined issues that were of concern to his council regarding the Marine Mammals Protection Act and unanimously opposed the position paper by the U.S. Fish & Wildlife Department Charlie Johnson, Acting Executive Director Eskimo Walrus Commission General Delivery Nome, Alaska 99762 Phone: 443-5592 Position Statement: Supported the position of the Indigenous Peoples Council and opposed the position paper by the U.S. Fish & Wildlife Department Beth Stewart, Director Natural Resources Department Aleutians East Borough P.O. Box 33796 Juneau, Alaska 99803 Phone: 789-9641 Position Statement: Advised of population problems with stellar sea lions and other endangered species in Alaska Eric Jorgenson, Managing Attorney Sierra Club Legal Defense Fund 325 4th Avenue Juneau, Alaska 99801 Phone: 586-2751 Position Statement: Advised of process of listing animals on the endangered species list Kate Troll, Executive Director Southeast Alaska Seiners Association 9226 Long Run Drive Juneau, Alaska 99801 Phone: 789-5117 Position Statement: Believed "species" needs to be defined, as now it is being applied to isolated populations Chuck Meacham, Deputy Commissioner Alaska Department of Fish & Game 1255 W. 8th Street Juneau, AK 99801 Phone: 465-4100 Position Statement: Advised Snake River fall chinook are still listed as endangered yet their numbers have increased significantly; spoke in favor of a Yukon River Salmon Treaty with the Canadians ACTION NARRATIVE TAPE 93-15, SIDE A Number 000 CHAIRMAN CARL MOSES called the meeting to order 9:07 a.m. He noted Representative James in attendance and stated the committee would take testimony regarding federal fisheries issues. Number 045 CARL ROSIER, COMMISSIONER, ALASKA DEPARTMENT OF FISH & GAME (ADF&G), introduced other members of the department. He stated the next 18-24 months is the time for re- authorization of the Magnuson Act, the Endangered Species Act and others. He advised that John Gisberg, Assistant Attorney General, has been assigned to the ADF&G to provide on-site legal services during the negotiation of the Yukon Salmon Treaty as well as participate in the Pacific Salmon Commission meetings, and knows the Endangered Species Act. The ADF&G's focus is the re-authorization of the Magnuson Fisheries Conservation & Management Act, the Endangered Species Act and the Marine Mammals Protection Act, he noted. MR. ROSIER also noted the ADF&G may need minor legal services and a lobbyist to ensure Alaska's views get conveyed in Washington D.C. He then noted the ADF&G needs more public involvement such as advisory groups to deal with a lack of funding for the department. Number 252 RON SOMERVILLE, SPECIAL ASSISTANT TO THE COMMISSIONER, ADF&G, advised that there are other problems the ADF&G is facing, besides the re-authorization of the Endangered Species Act (ESA), the Magnuson Act (MA), and the Marine Mammals Protection Act (MMPA). The listing of harbor seals on the Endangered Species List, for example, is of great interest to commercial and sport fishermen, hunters, and people in the timber industry. The economics of Alaska are intricately tied to the re-authorizations of the above listed acts, he said. Number 300 MR. SOMERVILLE stated the ADF&G is paying more attention to the subject of bio-diversity as President Clinton will probably sign the bio-diversity treaty. In terms of habitat protection, the treaty is an advantage, but dangerous for Alaska in terms of jurisdictional issues if the federal government seeks to enforce the bio-diversity aspects of the treaty without participation by the state, he noted. CHAIRMAN MOSES asked that Mr. Rosier and Mr. Somerville remain seated while taking testimony from Rod Moore in Washington D.C. Number 373 ROD MOORE, LEGISLATIVE AIDE FOR CONGRESSMAN DON YOUNG, testifying via teleconference from Washington D.C., advised that the Alaskan delegation will be seeking participation from Alaskans when dealing with the ESA, MMPA and MA re- authorizations. In 1992, Congressman Young introduced a bill to allow commercial fishing in Glacier Bay, he informed. Senator Murkowski introduced similar legislation in the Senate and adjournment took place before action was taken. Both bills have been introduced again this year and have been jointly referred to the subcommittee on natural resources, he disclosed. Number 417 MR. MOORE said the bill this year does not involve cruise ships; the park service is putting out a vessel management plan for cruise ships in Glacier Bay and, therefore, the issue was not addressed in Congressman Young's bill. Number 427 MR. MOORE, moving on to the ESA, mentioned that a bill had been introduced by Mr. Tozan of Louisiana, and co-signed by Congressman Young and other members that will make several changes to the ESA. This bill should resolve several problems with the ESA in terms of recognizing human needs. There is no intent to destroy the ESA; however, the Act, as presently implemented, is much stricter than the authors had intended it to be back in 1972. He then assured that the environmental community is supporting the bill. MR. MOORE, with regard to the MMPA, noted the most important, and time-sensitive issue is the fisheries exemption. The date of this exemption is September 30, 1993. If the fisheries exemption is not extended, modified, or continued by that date, the existing exemption process will lapse and fishermen will fall back under the original MMPA, which may cause local fisheries many problems. MR. MOORE concluded by saying that field hearings in Alaska for Congressman Young's bill may be limited due to a small travel budget. If the committee's travel budget does not allow, then hearings will be scheduled in Washington D.C., and testimonials from Alaska will be invited. Topics will include Coast guard issues and the buy-back of Bristol Bay oil leases. Number 593 MR. MOORE stated since the last re-authorization period, the removal of the Alaskan majority on the North Pacific Fisheries Management Council (NPFMC) has been a major concern. He claimed this would not be an issue before the subcommittee this year. Many other states are concerned about the make-up of the NPFMC and the number of sport- fishermen, commercial fishermen and environmentalists on the NPFMC. Congress established the NPFMC to allow fishermen and processors to participate in the management of our fisheries. If a very strict conflict-of-interest rule is applied to the NPFMC's membership and actions, the ability of fishermen and processors to participate will be taken away from the people who know the industry best, and fisheries' management will be left in the hands of those who do not know the industry very well, he declared. Number 629 REPRESENTATIVE CLIFF DAVIDSON asked what the modifications would be to the ESA, as well as the long-term result. MR. MOORE apologized for not knowing those modifications that Mr. Tozan had introduced, and stated the general concern is that once a species has been listed and measures taken to protect it, fish harvests or timber harvests should not be halted in the process. Another concern is the listing of sub-species and sub-populations, versus species as a whole. After the legislation gets printed, copies will be provided, he added. DAVID BENTON, DIRECTOR, EXTERNAL AND INTERNATIONAL FISHERIES AFFAIRS, ADF&G, advised that the NPFMC's make-up, specifically the Alaskan majority, should still concern the state. He stated the issues mentioned by Mr. Moore: The NPFMC membership, the role played by the NPFMC, and conflicts of interest on the NPFMC are all critically important to the state. Another problem that has been voiced is the inability of the NPFMC'S system to conserve and manage fish stocks in eastern states, he added. TAPE 93-15, SIDE B Number 000 MR. BENTON claimed that in the North Pacific, the NPFMC has been very conservation-oriented, and has been in the forefront of putting the first comprehensive observer program on national fisheries, prohibiting roe stripping, locking down fisheries that are being over-fished due to foreign fleets, and a number of other issues. Lastly, the fishery fee and tax system is an issue. Currently, there is no federal tax or fees on fish harvested; the National Marine Fisheries Service (NMFS) is pushing for fees to provide funds for fisheries management, he disclosed. If there is going to be a fee system, the state would like to see fees collected from a fishery in a particular region be devoted back to fisheries management in that region, he concluded. Number 122 MR. ROSIER commented that in the issue paper provided the committee, members should look at the section called "other provisions", which is an accumulation of ideas dealing with state controlled fisheries. (A copy of the issue paper may be found in the House Special Committee on Fisheries Room, and after the adjournment of the second session of the 18th Alaska State Legislature, in the Legislative Reference Library.) Number 142 REPRESENTATIVE DAVIDSON asked what the effect of a moratorium would be on the Individual Fishing Quota (IFQ) system. He said with some major changes being discussed to the Magnuson Act's re-authorization, the IFQ system should be brought up later in the re-authorization debate. He further asked if independent sociological studies would continue on the impact on industry and coastal communities. MR. BENTON said there was an IFQ moratorium in effect on the sablefish and halibut program that was established by Senator Ted Stevens. The NPFMC will not, however, be moving forward quickly to implement a sablefish/halibut IFQ program, which will allow Congress to look into the IFQ program further, he informed. Lastly, he said he was not aware of any further ongoing analyses arising from the IFQ program. Number 256 RICK LAUBER, CHAIRMAN, NPFMC and LOBBYIST for PACIFIC SEAFOOD PROCESSORS ASSOCIATION, noted the MA created the NPFMC in 1976. He said foreign fishermen had been over- fishing Alaskan waters and the NPFMC provided for some means to deal with this problem. In the mid 1980's, the first significant American production largely through factory ships operating out of Seattle was seen, he added. He hoped to be successful in defending the NPFMC's system, because if the management of fisheries reverts back to the system used before statehood, which was federal management, then the system will be in a world of hurt, he believed. Number 397 REPRESENTATIVE DAVIDSON asked to what extent the factory trawler and over-capitalization problem in the industry is related to the liberal use of the re-flagging issue. MR. LAUBER stated the abuse and re-flagging of Alaskan vessels by foreign countries is tremendous. He recounted a local boat, the Acona, was drug off to Norway, cut up, the name and number was salvaged off the keel and a $40 Million factory ship was built, which displayed an American flag. If the judge's decision had been upheld regarding foreign bottoms and foreign ownership, the factory trawler fleet off the coast of Alaska would have been reduced by half, he declared. A significant part of the over-capitalization was from re-flagging or foreign bottoms that were given exemptions, he added. CHAIRMAN MOSES advised that discussion would move on to Glacier Bay fishing. Number 455 BOB LOESCHER, EXECUTIVE VICE-PRESIDENT, SEALASKA CORPORATION, stated he had been working with the commercial fishermen's groups and the native people of Hoonah to deal with the Glacier Bay issue for the last few years. The area totals about 900 square miles and has been a traditional fishing ground for Natives of Elfin Cove, Hoonah, and Yakutat for over 100 years. The bay has been the subsistence area for the Hoonah Tlingits. He added there was a lawsuit filed by the Alaska Wildlife Alliance and American Wildlands versus Marvin Jensen, the Director of the National Park Service. MR. LOESCHER continued, saying the lawsuit challenged the commercial fisheries, subsistence, tour boats and other commercial activities in Glacier Bay. Additionally, he advised that Governor Hickel filed a lawsuit against the U.S. over the state waters' issue. The National Park Service (NPS) claims all of the waters under their jurisdiction and control and they applied the concept of wilderness waters within various parts of Glacier Bay, which limits commercial fishing as well as subsistence. MR. LOESCHER said, "The NPS is saying that commercial fisheries is prohibited by a matter of law in their regulations and they have already obligated laws against subsistence by the Hoonah people or any people, under Title eight of ANILCA (Alaska National Interest Lands Conservation Act), they do not recognize that in that they have said there is no subsistence activities allowed. This severely challenges the state of Alaska's rights under the Statehood Act, because the state of Alaska has the right of all waters, inland waters of the state, including three miles offshore. It also challenges the very fabric of our commercial fisheries laws, the limited entry laws, the right of the state to manage its fish resources, our conservation laws, environmental laws, and all of that is severely challenged by the NPS activities right now." MR. LOESCHER mentioned the environmental community could have an injunction against the fisheries, making the commercial and subsistence Native fishermen of Alaska, criminals. There was a bill introduced in Congress last year (1992) that was held up in the last hours by members of the Sierra Club and other environmentalist groups that are the principal opponents of Sealaska, he alleged. These groups feel Glacier Bay is a pristine area and should not be used for commercial purposes, including tour vessels, he added. Number 570 DALE KELLEY, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, ALASKA TROLLERS ASSOCIATION, COORDINATOR FOR THE ALLIED FISHERMEN OF SOUTHEAST ALASKA (AFSA), and MEMBER OF THE UNITED FISHERMEN OF ALASKA, said the 1990 suit filed by the Alaska Wildlife Alliance against the NPS documented commercial fishing was illegal in Glacier Bay National Park (GBNP) under ANILCA. In 1990, in response, the NPS proposed regulations that would terminate subsistence fishing immediately and terminate commercial fishing by 1997. Also in 1990, in response to these two actions, the Allied Fishermen of Southeast Alaska was formed to preserve fishing and the historic access rights to GBNP. MS. KELLEY noted the first task of AFSA was to intervene in a lawsuit, fight the regulations and seek statutory relief in Congress to fix the Glacier Bay issue. There should also be some review of the wilderness waters; there are a handful of crab fishermen in Gustavus who should be grandfathered into any regulations to phase them out slowly, in order to accommodate them, she said. In 1992, AFSA worked with the delegation and drafted much of the finding language in Congressman Young's bill. Alaskan fishermen need updated fish surveys and studies done, and that goes back to the budget cuts that the entire state is feeling, she concluded. Number 690 JOHN SISK, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, SOUTHEAST ALASKA CONSERVATION COUNCIL (SEACC), said the 1980 revised boundary of Glacier Bay when it was made into a national park includes Icy Strait and Cross Sound. Those waters are very important to commercial fishing, he added. TAPE 93-16, SIDE A Number 000 MR. SISK continued, saying the SEACC is Alaska's home-spun environmental group, composed of 15 local volunteer groups, that has been around for 22 years. Its primary focus is on management and protection of fish and wildlife habitat on federal and state lands in the panhandle. The SEACC works with local commercial fishermen and, therefore, looks differently at the Glacier Bay area than most national environmental groups. Commercial fishing is a renewable, cornerstone resource in the panhandle and has to be protected and secure in the future, he noted. MR. SISK advised that SEACC's board of directors took a formal position on four issues: support of customary and traditional subsistence fishing in the waters of GBNP by the villages of Hoonah and Yakutat; support of commercial fishing and sport fishing on the outer coast of GBNP and in all Icy Strait waters consistent with the maintenance of park values; the strong belief that motorless marine wilderness waters must be maintained and protected in GBNP; and, the belief that there should be no increases in the number of large cruise ship entries into Glacier Bay proper. Number 151 REPRESENTATIVE DAVIDSON asked if there had been any success with SEACC sitting down with members of the Sierra Club and pounding out some of the differences with the local situation. Number 156 MR. SISK advised that the national environmental groups do not have consensus on this issue. There is a process of review in the Sierra Club now, and most groups are working internally to get a game plan for this year, he added. Number 180 CHAIRMAN MOSES advised the committee that conversation would move on to the Marine Mammal Protection Act and the first testimony would be from Washington D.C. Number 191 SUZANNE LUDICELLO, REPRESENTING THE CENTER FOR MARINE CONSERVATION, testifying via teleconference from Washington D.C., said she would discuss the issues facing national environmental groups. The only way the MMPA moratorium on taking can be waived is to prove the marine mammal population is at its optimum sustainable population. In the spring of 1987, local groups of fishermen, environmentalists and other parties met and came up with a compromise that was designed to allow fishing to continue for five years while the agency and industry gathered information about fishing operations and marine mammals. This agreement was translated by Congress into section 114 of the MMPA, known as the interim exemption or the "fish fix". That section of the act will expire at the end of September, 1993, and it will be important to have a new proposal for Congress before the old one expires. Another issue that may be important is co-management of marine mammals between tribes and the federal government, she concluded. Number 382 LARRY MERCULIEFF, VICE CHAIR OF THE INDIGENOUS PEOPLES COUNCIL ON MARINE MAMMALS (IPC), testifying via teleconference from St. Paul Island, advised members that the IPC is comprised of representatives from user groups from the Arctic to Southeast Alaska for the coordination of actions and activities, and the exchange of information. The first priority of the IPC is to maintain existing Native exemptions pursuant to section 101B of the MMPA which allows Alaskan Natives to take marine mammals for subsistence purposes and for the production of handicrafts. The user groups do not intend to propose any amendments to the MMPA unless other interest groups propose amendments that are adverse to Native interests and receive favorable consideration in Congress, he alleged. MR. MERCULIEFF stated the position paper that the state has is incorrect. The IPC is on record as unanimously opposing amendments apparently being proposed by the United States Fish and Wildlife Service (USF&W). The IPC also opposes any amendments which seek to further regulate Native subsistence use of marine mammals beyond what already exists or which seek to diminish the priority status of subsistence users more than what already exists. The IPC supports increased cooperative multinational research management; increased funding for research; and, meaningful involvement of indigenous people in research management, he concluded. Number 488 CHARLIE JOHNSON, ACTING EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE ESKIMO WALRUS COMMISSION (EWC), testified via teleconference from Nome. He stated the EWC's first priority is the Native exemption of the re-authorization of the MMPA. The EWC will not offer amendments unless there are others contrary to the mission of the EWC or if their amendments are acceptable to all parties involved. The EWC is primarily concerned with walrus. The position taken by the IPC is the same as that of the EWC and the EWC supports that position, he informed. Number 517 BETH STEWART, DIRECTOR OF THE NATURAL RESOURCES DEPARTMENT FOR THE ALEUTIANS EAST BOROUGH stated that in 1988, when the fisheries exemption was granted, the Aleutians East Borough (AEB) realized the problems with the stellar sea lions. The severe decline of stellar sea lions occurs around Kodiak and Sand Point, False Pass, Nelson Lagoon and King Cove. She advised that the people in the region carried marine mammal observers on their vessels for one year, after which they were de-classified to a lower category because the observations indicated that fisheries interactions with stellar sea lions were not the problem. MS. STEWART said the AEB has been working to develop scientific information for stellar sea lions and other sea mammals. Once a mammal reaches the numbers that the stellar's have, the government is required to take conservation measures, even if the measures are not sure to have a positive impact on the species of concern. There are areas in the AEB which are no-transit zones and will only allow a boat into the area if it is in danger of sinking. There are also no-troll zones further along the western Aleutians that have displaced many vessels that used to fish there, and so far there is no indication that those measures have done any good to stabilize the population. Harbour seal declines are now a concern also, she added, and bio- diversity is going to be an important issue, especially if it threatens people by not allowing fishing. Number 606 CHAIRMAN MOSES asked if there were questions, hearing none, testimony moved on to the Endangered Species Act (ESA). Number 612 ERIC JORGENSON, MANAGING ATTORNEY FOR THE SIERRA CLUB LEGAL DEFENSE FUND IN JUNEAU, stated the ESA was one of the nation's earliest and most effective environmental laws and has had broad support in Congress and with the American people. The Act was enacted in 1973 and has been improved over the years. The process begins by listing a species as threatened or endangered by the USF&WS or the NMFS. That listing triggers a variety of protection, including the research of critical habitats, obligation of federal agencies to consult with the USF&WS before taking actions, prohibition of taking, and development of a recovery plan for the species to get the species off the list. Number 670 MR. JORGENSON concluded that the Act has assisted many species including the bald eagle, brown pelican, alligator, whooping crane, and on and on. There are conflicts between the ESA and development of projects, but they are rare. There are 700 species on the endangered species' list and there are thousands of federal projects each year, he added. TAPE 93-16, SIDE B Number 000 MR. JORGENSON advised that Alaskans are seeing impacts from activities that take place outside Alaska. He then offered to answer questions. Number 020 RON SOMERVILLE, SPECIAL ASSISTANT TO THE COMMISSIONER, ADF&G, advised that the ESA has possible built-in train- wrecks because of the interpretation by the courts and the litigation efforts by Greenpeace. The ESA involves more than just salmon, but is a way to protect ecosystems; the problem is that the ESA was designed to protect species and is not properly structured to protect ecosystems. The ESA has two parts: The endangered species, and the threatened species. The de-listing process has become bogged-down and now it is almost impossible to get a species off the list. Australian kangaroos, for example have exceeded populations of three million animals, yet they remain on the list and no foreign importing is allowed, which restricts international trade. MR. SOMERVILLE alleged there will probably be a move to place the Snake River chinook salmon on the list which will cause strict international trade restrictions on chinook salmon from the Columbia River system. The standards for listing, the definition of species, not stocks, and the role of the state are the three priority areas of the ADF&G in regards to the ESA, he concluded. Number 321 REPRESENTATIVE DAVIDSON asked what direction or priorities Mr. Somerville would be taking back to Washington D.C. in argument to the new administration. MR. SOMERVILLE responded that the state will not advocate to do away with the ESA, but noted the ESA is poorly equipped to deal with problems regarding ecosystems and populations. Maybe the bio-diversity issue should be implemented through legislation to deal with ecosystems, whereas the ESA deals with species, he suggested. REPRESENTATIVE DAVIDSON asked how Mr. Somerville would propose to deal with insufficient information regarding listing proposals. Number 325 CHAIRMAN MOSES advised Representative Davidson that for the sake of time, questions would be reserved for another time. Number 328 KATE TROLL, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR FOR THE SOUTHEAST ALASKA SEINERS ASSOCIATION, advised that commercial fishing groups need to work together with moderate environmental groups. These groups need to try to find a consensus between balancing the needs of the ecosystem, the species, and the economy. The definition of species or sub-species needs to be analyzed, she believed, and noted the act is now being applied to very isolated populations. She did not think it was Congress' intent to apply the ESA to these populations. Commercial fishing groups would like to see the Act get directed back toward species, and not isolated populations, where it takes 45 steps to differentiate one fish from another. MS. TROLL stated secondly, the primary responsibility should be directed to the primary threat to the species. There needs to be better determination of the listing criteria and listing needs to be based on the biological sciences. Economics cannot be part of the listing process or the re- authorization of the act will get nowhere, she concluded. Number 434 CHAIRMAN MOSES thanked Ms. Troll and said that testimony would move on to the Pacific Salmon Treaty. Number 438 CHUCK MEACHAM, DEPUTY COMMISSIONER, ADF&G, said that in the summer of 1992, Snake River fall chinook salmon were listed as threatened under the ESA. He pointed out Sections ten and seven of the ESA allow fishermen to obtain an incidental take permit. The ADF&G is working with the NMFS on the biological assessment which gathers the effects of the fisheries on the listed species, and the ADF&G is trying to set up a meeting with the Canadians to work together on the entire coast-wide chinook problem, the Frazier Annex and the Southern chum annex problem, he concluded. CHAIRMAN MOSES thanked Mr. Meacham and invited Ms. Kelley to speak once again. Number 569 MS. KELLEY advised that the biggest misunderstanding about the treaty between the U.S. and Canada is that the issues do not always center on Alaska or Canada. She alleged most of the fish captured in Alaskan waters come from Canada or the Lower 48 states, and the Pacific Salmon Treaty has been successful in rebuilding chinook stocks. She surmised the general summer season has gone from 168 days to four and a half days because stocks are so abundant. The Snake River chinook issue has been taken to the extreme, she said, and asked what would happen if one or two of the Snake River fall chinook salmon got into the fishery. MS. KELLEY wondered if the fishery would be shut down. She deemed this type of disruption would put some trollers out of business. Currently, the Alaska Trollers Association has 2,500 permit holders, 1,600 of which are active. She advised that any assistance in Washington D.C. would be very important to help with the fisheries. Number 676 CHAIRMAN MOSES thanked Ms. Kelley and invited Ms. Troll to testify once again. Number 681 MS. TROLL, speaking also about the Pacific Salmon Treaty, claimed that if trollers are vulnerable because of the ESA, then every fishery in the state of Alaska is in danger. The entire state has to be strong and support the trollers, because if the trollers lose, everyone will lose. she said. The intensity and political fallout has been incredible; and, Washington State and Alaska continue to argue on issues while Canada sits back and catches Alaska's fish, she declared. TAPE 93-17, SIDE A Number 000 MS. TROLL continued, "Washington residents should visit Washington D.C. and talk to constituents; and if they want to take on Alaska and its fishery issues, then they will hurt their own economic base." She noted there has been a division or split between Washington and Alaska due to political parties. She noted further that Washington has a democratic Governor and Alaska has Ted Stevens in the Senate and Washington is "tired of being strong-armed by Alaskans." ADJOURNMENT Number 059 CHAIRMAN MOSES thanked everyone who testified, and asked if there were further comments from the audience. Hearing none, he adjourned the meeting at 12:22 p.m.