HOUSE FINANCE COMMITTEE April 14, 2023 1:35 p.m. 1:35:45 PM CALL TO ORDER Co-Chair Foster called the House Finance Committee meeting to order at 1:35 p.m. MEMBERS PRESENT Representative Bryce Edgmon, Co-Chair Representative Neal Foster, Co-Chair Representative Julie Coulombe Representative Mike Cronk Representative Alyse Galvin Representative Sara Hannan Representative Andy Josephson Representative Dan Ortiz Representative Will Stapp Representative Frank Tomaszewski MEMBERS ABSENT Representative DeLena Johnson, Co-Chair ALSO PRESENT Representative Jesse Sumner, Sponsor; Jeremy Douse, Northern Region Forester, Division of Forestry and Fire Protection, Department of Natural Resources; Jesse Logan, Staff, Representative Jesse Sumner; Representative Andi Story, Sponsor; Miranda Worl, Staff, Representative Andi Story; Senator Jesse Bjorkman. PRESENT VIA TELECONFERENCE Joe Young, Owner, Young's Timber Inc., Tok; Rodney Dial, Mayor, Ketchikan Gateway Borough, Ketchikan; Andrew Traxler, Papoose Milling, Big Lake; Yaayuk Alvanna- Stimpfle, Co-Chair, ANLPAC, Nome. SUMMARY HB 26 COUNCIL FOR ALASKA NATIVE LANGUAGES HB 26 was HEARD and HELD in committee for further consideration. HB 93 LUMBER GRADING PROGRAM HB 93 was HEARD and HELD in committee for further consideration. Co-Chair Foster reviewed the meeting agenda. HOUSE BILL NO. 93 "An Act relating to a lumber grading training program and lumber grading certificates; relating to use of lumber graded and certified by a person holding a lumber grading training program certificate; and providing for an effective date." 1:37:03 PM REPRESENTATIVE JESSE SUMNER, SPONSOR, thanked the committee for hearing the bill. He read from a prepared statement. Edit these verbatim minutes and SEND. As a homebuilder I am very familiar with our inability to utilize local lumber for construction. While there is good quality lumber and skilled mills in the state, residential construction often relies on products from large box stores instead. This is due to the requirement to use graded lumber, which must come from outside. Rather than degrading the quality of new construction by eliminating the requirements for graded lumber, this bill would develop a grading program here in the state to certify locally produced high quality building lumber. Fortunately, the Department of Natural Resources (DNR) was already underway in developing such a program. Stakeholders included sawmill owners, homebuilders, housing authorities, economic development associations, vocational educators, DNR, and the United States (US) Forest Service. There were several things that contributed to the need for the bill. Lumber used in residential construction must be graded and stamped to meet building code and financing requirements. However, small Alaska sawmills do not produce enough dimensional lumber to justify the cost of hiring a grading agency to grade and stamp the lumber. The cost of lumber and other construction materials has risen dramatically over the last several years making it harder for Alaskans to address housing shortages affecting most of our state. Regions off the road system experience even higher costs of construction as materials have to be flown or barged into areas that may already have abundant timber growing nearby. A local lumber grading program would allow local sawmills operators to become certified to grade and sell dimensional lumber they mill for residential construction to a homeowner or a homeowners contractor. This would provide Alaskans the option to purchase a local product for use in construction of their homes. It would create economic opportunities that would result in permanent stable family wage jobs in rural communities and villages and would strengthen and diversify local economies. In some parts of the state there would be cost savings from locally produced dimensional lumber. According to information from 2022, the average price of an 8 foot 2 inch by 4 inch [stud] was $9.44 the average total price of barging the same piece of lumber to interior communities was $12.00 and the average total cost of air shipping was $21.00 The Kuskokwim Corporation had been working with the Alaska Cold Climate Research Center on heat efficient kit homes that uses timber harvested in their region using locally produced graded dimensional lumber that would be significantly cheaper than shipping in dimensional lumber. It would help the corporation meet more of the housing needs in this part of rural Alaska. Many of the villages in the Tanana Chief Conference had small sawmills and may be able to take advantage of the local lumber grading program in the future to help build housing in their communities. In Southeast Alaska a coalition of tribal, public sector, and private sector partners were interested in transitioning away from old growth timber to a sustainable industry manufacturing young growth wood products. This would provide economic opportunity and a local supply of wood products for consumers but the limited opportunities for sales, sawmill operators not able to grade their lumber is one of the hurdles for its implementation. A local lumber grading program would also lower the barrier to entry to create new sawmills. The sawmills could serve as a catalyst to increase investment in forest management and help build the timber sector statewide. A large timber sector could in turn, provide the additionality needed for creating and selling forest carbon offset projects adding further investment and revenues to the timber sector. The Division of Forestry and Fire Protection, DNR would administer the program and ensure the training necessary for certification was offered at least, annually. Jeremy Doust, Northern Region Forester, was online to provide a presentation, discuss lumber grading, take a deeper dive into the need for a lumber grading program, and offer an overview of the program DNR would administer under the bill. 1:42:00 PM Co-Chair Foster asked Mr. Douse to proceed with the presentation. JEREMY DOUSE, NORTHERN REGION FORESTER, DIVISION OF FORESTRY AND FIRE PROTECTION, DEPARTMENT OF NATURAL RESOURCES, provided a PowerPoint presentation titled "HB 93: Local Lumber Grading," dated April 14, 2023 (copy on file). He introduced himself and began on slide 2 titled "Grade Stamped Lumber: • Grade Stamped lumber allows the purchaser to know the wood meets a quality standard. • Grading agencies such as Western Wood Products Association (WWPA) publishes the Western Lumber Grading Rules for appearance grading. • Grading rules are accredited by the American Lumber Standards Committee (ALSC) • Members of WWPA receive mill training, quality assurance (QA), market analysis, and professional development. • Small mill operators find it economically challenging to become a member of these types of associations. 1:44:53 PM Mr. Douse turned to slide 3 titled "Cost of Grading Agency Membership in Alaska:" •Membership Dues + Monthly Site Inspections + Inspector Travel Costs ˜$2200/month•Membership options for small mill operators:-Only pay for membership fees during active periods. •Membership options for small mill operators: -Only pay for membership fees during active Periods. -Stockpile milled material and bring in an Inspector when there is enough to justify the travel costs. •Difficult for small mills to produce enough volume to justify these costs and remain profitable. 1:46:07 PM Mr. Douse advanced to slide 4 titled What is a Local Use Lumber Program: • It is state law/regulation in seven states allowing non graded/stamped locally produced dimensional lumber in some construction applications. • It is often an exemption to a building code that requires grade stamped lumber. • It is focused on small mill operators providing opportunities for them to enter home construction markets explained what grading agencies were, // allowed non-graded stamped locally produced dimensional lumber in some construction applications. Mr. Douse moved to slide 5 titled "What is a Local Use Lumber Program?" (continued): • It includes a training program for small mill operators on grading their own lumber and includes a recertification schedule. • Because of the code exemption, it allows for traditional home construction financing. • Gives building inspectors an opportunity to inspect and reject the wood if necessary. Mr. Douse discussed slide 6 titled "What is a Local Use Lumber Program?" (continued): • Local use lumber must be sold to the end user or the contractor building the home. • Most states only allow residential (1 3 family home) construction as well as outbuildings. • Mill operator must take and pass a grading course. • Certification only lasts for 5 years. • Mill operator provides a certificate with the local lumber. • Only applies to softwood. 1:48:42 PM Mr. Douse examined slide 7 titled Why is This Program Needed in Alaska: - Wood prices have increased dramatically for home construction - National Association of Home Builders notes wood prices add $36k to new single family home construction • Alaska Housing Finance Corporation cites high cost of construction as a reason new building permits fell 15% - Canadian import tariffs on softwood were raised to 17.99% in early 2022 • Alaska imports ~$20 million annually in wood products from Canada (Canadian Trade Commission) • Forest Management Salvage harvest of beetle-killed trees less than 4 years past mortality. Increase forest management opportunities for private landowners. • Increase economic activity in rural communities. • Increase milling capacity. Mr. Douse addressed slide 8 titled Mill Capacity and Production in Alaska. He communicated that the graph depicted the dimensional lumber production capacity in Alaska, measured in Thousand Board Feet (MBF) over 20 years from 2000 to 2020. He noted that the majority of the states wood products were from Southeast Alaska and had an impact statewide. He delineated that in 2020 the states capacity was 500,000 MBF and the production was 87 MBF. The amount of production had decreased significantly by 2020 to 15.5 MBF. Alaska imported about 200 MBF annually in wood products from Canada not including the amount of wood products coming into the state from the lower 48 states. 1:52:00 PM Mr. Douse highlighted slide 9 titled Grading Agency Lumber Standards." He explained that a lumber grader was a career. He pointed to the table on the chart that showed the categories and the types of grades for a number of different use categories. He indicated that the grading system was fairly complex, and the bill was not replacing the graded lumber system. The legislation was a way for small mill operators to sell their products for residential framed construction. He turned attention to the boxed in area on the table in darker font and pointed to the grades that the division was currently working on substituting for the state's proposed lumber grading program. The states grading would be fairly straight forward and conservative relative to the national grading equivalents. 1:54:15 PM Mr. Douse moved to slide 10 titled Alaska Local Use Lumber Substitute Equivalent Grades: Number 2 and Better: Substitute equivalent to Number 2 Grade of Structural Light Framing, Joists and Planks and Standard Grade of the Light Framing use categories. Stud: Substitute equivalent to Stud Grade used in residential construction. Number 3 Substitute equivalent to Number 3 Grade of Structural Light Framing, Joists and Planks and Utility Grade of the Light Framing use categories. Mr. Douse commented that the Alaska standards were related to the industry standards of the Western Wood Products Association. 1:54:54 PM Mr. Douse presented slide 11 titled Alaska Training and Certification: • One day free class focusing on visually grading lumber to the three Alaska grades. O Issuance of Alaska Local Use Lumber handbook O Issuance of Air-Drying Best Practices document Offered at least annually in Southeast, Southcentral and Interior • Recertification required every five years • Certification issued to the person, not the mill Mr. Douse reported that by offering the class for free people would take the class more often than every 5 years. He reviewed slide 12 titled Selling the Lumber (special conditions): • Mill owner/operator sells the lumber directly to the end user or to the contractor building the home. • Lumber sale must include documentation that describes the 5 designations (grade, species, moisture content, surface condition, size). • Lumber sale must include a copy of the mill owner's certification with the Alaska Local Use Lumber program. • Building inspector may refuse the lumber. Co-Chair Foster OPENED public testimony. JOE YOUNG, OWNER, YOUNG'S TIMBER INC., TOK (via teleconference), strongly supported the legislation. He thanked the sponsors and committee for providing the opportunity to testify. He discussed his business, Young's Timber Inc. that had been in operation since 1993. The operation had 4 different types of sawmills that produced a range of value added products working with a staff of 12 employees. He noted that quality white spruce lumber was a value added product and customers commented on its superior quality when compared to imported lumber. However, his lumber is not graded or certified due to the high cost. He delineated that Alaska Spruce compared to Douglas Fir in test loads, compression strength, and elasticity according to Alaska labs. He believed that the bill would increase sawmill sales, create timber jobs, and help build affordable housing. He asked the committee to support the bill. Representative Cronk thanked Mr. Young for testifying. 2:00:51 PM RODNEY DIAL, MAYOR, KETCHIKAN GATEWAY BOROUGH, KETCHIKAN (via teleconference), spoke in support of the legislation. He shared that the community was experiencing a housing crisis with affordability and availability the leading causes. The crisis was impacting the citys economic growth. The assembly and city staff were looking for opportunities to encourage new housing. He believed that the legislation provided the ability to increase the lumber supply. Increasing lumber prices added $30 thousand to the cost of a home in Ketchikan that began during the pandemic, when the lumber supply was constrained. He recalled that historically Southeast Alaska had a long history of small sawmills and older homes were built from local timber. He viewed the bill as a means to facilitate local access to locally produced lumber, support affordable housing, and provide jobs. He encouraged the committee to support the bill. 2:02:46 PM ANDREW TRAXLER, PAPOOSE MILLING, BIG LAKE (via teleconference), supported HB 93. He stressed the need to also pass HB 104 (Timber Sale: Expedited/Salvage/Negotiated) due to the need for increased timber availability. He believed that the bill was perfect. He discussed the cost of lumber from his sawmill versus a box store. He exemplified the cost of a rafter board measuring 2 inches by 12 inches by 20 feet long that he charged $53.20 (throughout the COVID 19 pandemic as well) that cost $93.00 from a box store in the prior year and was currently $63.60. He concluded that there was a large cost savings when being able to buy wood locally. Co-Chair Foster noted it was not his intent to move the bill from committee during the current meeting. He provided members the opportunity to ask questions. Representative Hannan stated her support of the bill. She shared that in her district lots of cabins were built via ungraded lumber from local mills but building inspector prohibited its use for housing. She wondered about the jurisdiction of the state and whether the bill would supersede local laws to allow for unstamped lumber, since the state lacked a statewide building code. Representative Sumner replied that the bill allowed the local building inspector to reject lumber. He guessed that Representative Hannan was asking if a municipality could reject the program entirely. He believed the answer was yes, but he would follow up. Representative Hannan cited the following from the fiscal note: Contractual costs through an RSA with the University will be incurred. A Wood Utilization Specialist faculty position will be created to manage the Local Lumber program by training regional instructors She wondered about the dialogue with the University and if they were in process. She wondered where the position would be located. 2:07:25 PM Representative Sumner answered that the position would be housed at the University of Alaska, Fairbanks (UAF). JESSE LOGAN, STAFF, REPRESENTATIVE JESSE SUMNER, deferred the question to Mr. Douse. Mr. Douse responded that the Cooperative Extension Service (CES) resided at UAF. However, there were UAF extension service employees at other campuses around the state (Juneau, Ketchikan, and Anchorage.) He explained that the reason the position would be part of CES was that a program to help natural resource based industries was already established. He added that if the Division of Forestry took on the program it would be starting from scratch. The faculty position would be the only need for CES to carry out the program. 2:09:15 PM Representative Hannan looked for more specificity on whether the University was on board with the bill. She noted that the person who implemented the program needed to be highly degreed. She wondered if the UAF was ready to roll out the program. Mr. Douse replied that the division had been working with the University throughout the process and they were completely on board. Representative Josephson referenced testimony that the bill could be a catalyst for road construction in state forest for further access. He asked how it would happen. Mr. Douse responded that when the state released a timber sale, if there was no road access the timber sale was used to back out some of the cost of road construction. He furthered that it was not directly related to the bill, and he was merely pointing out how the division operated timber sales. He ascertained that if the bill passed it could lead to increased demand for White Spruce or other softwood timber, which would lead to more road construction via increased timber sales. Representative Tomaszewski thanked the sponsor for bringing the bill forward. He thanked the sponsor for giving accountability to the municipal inspector through the ability to reject lumber. He referred to slide 9, the grading agency lumber standards, and noted that it did not include timbers or special dimension lumber. He asked if they would be added in the future. Mr. Douse responded that there was a bit more nuance in grading timber than lumber. He acknowledged that there was much interest in including timbers in the program. The bill attempted to build up success in the proposed program and then include timber in the future. He thought it would likely be a separate class because grading timber was more nuanced than dimensional lumber. 2:14:26 PM Representative Tomaszewski referenced slide 12, the first bullet point and read: Mill owner/operator sells the lumber directly to the end user or to the contractor building the home. He asked if there would be any provision allowing a lumber mill to sell to a box store. Representative Sumner answered that the concept was not contemplated in the current bill because there was not a stamp on the lumber, the proposal was certificated program. Co-Chair Edgmon strongly supported the bill. He asked whether the bill was an entirely new program. Mr. Logan replied affirmatively. Co-Chair Edgmon asked if there was any wisdom to make the program more comprehensive defining things like local and sawmill size and types, etc. under the current bill so it would not require additional legislation in the future. He did not want to slow progress on the bill but thought it would be more advantageous. Mr. Logan responded that he agreed with Representative Edgmon and supported including more definitions. Co-Chair Edgmon thought more definitions would strengthen the bill. 2:18:36 PM Representative Stapp wondered how the wood would be graded via the states regulatory process. He looked at slide 12 and read the second bullet point, Lumber sale must include documentation that describes the 5 designations (grade, species, moisture content, surface condition, size). He asked for a description of the regulatory process. Representative Sumner replied that currently grading stamps were done by private organizations and grades were adopted in code. Currently, there were not statutory definitions for grading due to the lack of a statewide building code. He did not know whether it would be appropriate to get too down into the weeds by defining grades in statute when they were regulatory issues. Representative Ortiz supported the legislation. He referenced testimony by the first testifier who advocated for more timber to be made available for harvest. He asked if the bill created more competition for the timber resources currently being made available. He asked if there was any pushback that the bill would create more problems related to a lack of supply. Representative Sumner replied in the negative. 2:22:32 PM Representative Ortiz clarified that he wondered if he had heard pushback that the bill would create an even greater demand for Alaska timber that was already in limited supply. Mr. Logan replied they had not heard any pushback. He shared there were numerous letters of support in members' packets. Many were from local sawmills that wanted their products to be available to residential builders. Representative Cronk thanked the sponsors for the bill. He believed that the local lumber supply was limited, and the sawmills were being squeezed. He thought the bill was beneficial especially for local operators in rural Alaska. Representative Coulombe asked if the sponsor was confident banks would provide loans for the certified lumber. Representative Sumner answered in the affirmative and added that he did not anticipate any issues with financing. Representative Coulombe thanked the sponsor for bringing the bill forward. 2:26:23 PM Representative Galvin was supportive of the bill. She looked at slide 6, page 2 of the bill, lines 20 to 22 that referred to one, two, and three family dwellings. She pointed to the second bullet point on slide 6: Most states only allow residential (1 3 family home) construction as well as outbuildings. She assumed the 3 unit limit was included for a reason but wondered how that would affect a 4-plex residential structure. She reasoned that there were many 4-plex units in Alaska. Representative Sumner deferred the question to Mr. Douse. Mr. Douse replied that the state program dovetailed the current code. He understood that any residential dwelling larger than 3 units required an engineers stamp besides building inspectors' approval. Representative Galvin ascertained that it was not related to the product itself but would add an extra layer that was not included in the bill. Mr. Douse responded in the affirmative. Representative Sumner interjected that commercial occupancy dwellings were entirely different from residential. Tri- plexes fell under the national residential code and anything larger fell under commercial construction codes. Co-Chair Foster CLOSED public testimony. Co-Chair Foster recognized Senator Jesse Bjorkman in the room. Representative Sumner thanked the committee for hearing the bill. HB 93 was HEARD and HELD in committee for further consideration. HOUSE BILL NO. 26 "An Act renaming the Alaska Native Language Preservation and Advisory Council as the Council for Alaska Native Languages; and relating to the Council for Alaska Native Languages." 2:30:16 PM REPRESENTATIVE ANDI STORY, SPONSOR, introduced herself and the legislation. She related that the Alaska Native Language Preservation and Advisory Council (ANLPAC) was th created by the 27 legislature and the governor appointed 5 voting members that were professional language experts from diverse regions of the state. Additionally, there were two non-voting members; one from the House and one from the Senate. Representative Story shared that she was one of the non-voting members. She shared that the bill had been before the committee in the past. She relayed the council's purpose and mission: • The Alaska Native Language Preservation & Advisory Council provides recommendations and advice to both the Governor and Legislature on programs, policies, and projects; and to network and advocate in support of the Council's mission. • The mission of ANLPAC is to advocate for the survival and revitalization of Alaska Native languages through collaboration and sharing for all. Representative Story explained that HB 26 changed three things that had to be accomplished via statute. The first provision was to shorten the council's name, the second was to expand the membership, and expand the list of languages to include Native languages that had inadvertently been left out of the prior bill. She emphasized that the provisions were significant to the council. The name change to the "Council for Alaska Native Languages emphasized its broader focus, which included more than just language preservation but also embraced restoration, and revitalization of Alaska Native languages. The Council also requested an increase in membership from five to seven members in recognition that there were 23 Native languages in Alaska. The additional members would capture a greater perspective, allow for greater language representation, and expanded the involvement for various regions. Finally, the bill revised the official list of Alaska Native languages that were the co-official languages of Alaska established in 2015. The current list of 20 languages was based on a 1974 map by Dr. Michael Krauss, but it was discovered that 23 languages exist. She urged the committee to pass the legislation. She informed the committee that the bill packets included one fiscal note and a summary by the Alaska Native Language Preservation & Advisory Council (copy on file). 2:34:49 PM MIRANDA WORL, STAFF, REPRESENTATIVE ANDI STORY, reviewed the sectional analysis (copy on file): Section 1: Amends AS 44.12.310(a) to add Cup'ig and Weta (Ts'etsa'ut) as official languages of Alaska and divide Tanana into the Benhti Kokhwt'ana Kenaga' (Lower Tanana) and Sahcheeg xut'een xneege' (Middle Tanana) languages. Section 2: Amends AS 44.33.520(a) to simplify the name of the Council from "Alaska Native Language Preservation and Advisory Council" to "Council for Alaska Native Languages." Section 3: Amends AS 44.33.520(c) by changing voting members from "five" to "seven. Co-Chair Foster asked for a review of the fiscal note. Ms. Worl reviewed the fiscal impact note from Department of Commerce, Community and Economic Development (CED) FN1. She relayed that the fiscal note appropriated $10 thousand in travel costs to allow the two additional members to travel to two meetings per year as per statute. 2:36:53 PM YAAYUK ALVANNA-STIMPFLE, CO-CHAIR, ANLPAC, NOME (via teleconference), provided testimony in support of the legislation. She addressed each section of the bill. She referred to Section 1 and informed the committee that the section added native languages to the list of official languages in the state as follows: Cipig, Upper Tanana, Middle Tanana, and Lower Tanana. She read from a prepared statement.: Council for Alaska Native Languages: What does it mean. Section 2: 1) Preservation A. Archives: this means working in archives where Native languages were recorded from years past. There are large and small archival repositories where new generations can be supported to acquire and learn their respective languages. B. Media: There are resources online on the internet for learners and researchers to find information to develop learning materials. Indigenous people share what they have learned what works for their communities and learning institutions. Ms. Alvanna-Stimpfle provided an example of her daughter who taught Inupiaq to her students all day without speaking English and other Inupiaq speaking school districts were interested in visiting her class to observe how she teaches her students. C. Community Wellness: Indigenous people work towards wellness for adults to learn what was lost from their past treatments of knowing how to speak to home language at schools and churches. This caused Post- Traumatic Stress Disorder for the next generations. To break this trauma, Indigenous have worked hard on cultural wellness in arts and ceremonies to revitalize what was lost. 2) Restoration A. Reclaim in restoring our Native languages, we are reclaiming who we are and where we come from. We have come from thousands of years of not only surviving harsh environments but also, thriving in that very environment. Our languages comes from our land, sea, and resources in the air. B. Rebirth and Renaissance: This is the time (today, now) for revival of all of our Alaska Native languages. The language council works towards to this, where our languages are normalized in the whole State. Ms. Alvanna-Stimpfle interjected that she had travelled with her daughter to a town north of Quebec, Canada where every person spoke their native language. 3) Revitalization A. Build on Native Identity: When a young person learns in the language, they are forming an Indigenous identity. (Note, not learning the language). B. Moving Forward: The ultimate result is for cultural wellness and being able to speak from the Native perspective. Ms. Alvanna-Stimpfle related that the native perspective was very different than how its expressed in English and the train of thought was different. She emphasized that the young people needed to learn their languages because they would be responsible for teaching them in the future. Section 3: 4) Seven Voting Members Alaska needs to hear from a wider community of Alaska Native language experts and the advocates of language warriors. This makes for a stronger network of language work with the same perspective of revitalizing Indigenous languages in Alaska. She concluded that the council highly supported the bill. She thanked the committee. 2:42:16 PM Representative Josephson asked if there were languages that had not survived since the first contact with non-native people in 1741. Representative Story replied that if a language was not being spoken currently it was considered dormant. She deferred to Ms. Alvanna-Stimpfle for further answer. Ms. Alvanna-Stimpfle replied that Eyak was disappearing in the 1980s and linguists like Dr. Michael Krauss worked diligently with the last remaining speakers to document the language. Amazingly, a young French linguist learned the language with the help of Dr. Krauss and had been working with families to revitalize the language. She was unaware of any other languages lost but was sure there were others. Co-Chair Foster noted the bill would be heard again. Representative Story reiterated that the council published an annual Summary of Recommendations for the legislature and governor. She highlighted the recommendation to restore full funding to the council. She indicated that the council had lost its funding for administrative support. The council was currently operating with only one full time research analyst. She would welcome an amendment to restore the administrative position. She urged the committee to read the entire document. HB 26 was HEARD and HELD in committee for further consideration. Co-Chair Foster reviewed the schedule for the following meeting. ADJOURNMENT 2:46:57 PM The meeting was adjourned at 2:46 p.m.