HOUSE FINANCE COMMITTEE April 16, 1996 8:20 A.M. TAPE HFC 96-122, Side 1, #000 - end. TAPE HFC 96-122, Side 2, #000 - #471. CALL TO ORDER Co-Chair Mark Hanley called the House Finance Committee meeting to order at 8:20 a.m. PRESENT Co-Chair Hanley Representative Martin Co-Chair Foster Representative Mulder Representative Brown Representative Navarre Representative Grussendorf Representative Parnell Representative Kelly Representative Therriault Representative Kohring ALSO PRESENT Representative Alan Austerman; Kevin Delaney, Director, Division of Sport Fish; Bruce Geron, Legislative Liaison, Department of Fish and Game; Gary Hull, Guide, Kenai; Joe Harding, Kenai; Jeff King, Kenai. SUMMARY HB 175 An Act relating to sport fish guides; and providing for an effective date. CSHB 175 (FIN) was reported out of Committee with "no recommendation" Department of Fish and Game. HB 267 An Act relating to review and expiration of regulations; and providing for an effective date. HB 267 was rescheduled to another time. HB 543 An Act establishing a preference when entering into state airport land leases. HB 543 was rescheduled to another time. HOUSE BILL NO. 175 "An Act relating to sport fish guides; and providing for an effective date." 1 REPRESENTATIVE ALAN AUSTERMAN, SPONSOR, stated he would be available for discussion regarding amendments offered on HB 175. Representative Mulder MOVED to adopt Amendment 1, 9- LS0664\U.3 (copy on file). Amendment 1 relates to compensation of vendors of fish and game licenses and tags. He explained that the amendment would allow money collected by an agent to be assigned to a nonprofit involved in fish or game. Money collected by the Department of Fish and Game could go directly to the charity. He noted that sport fish and hunting groups support Amendment 1. Co-Chair Hanley questioned if the amendment would require additional paper work by the Department. GERON BRUCE, LEGISLATIVE LIAISON, DEPARTMENT OF FISH AND GAME observed that another piece of legislation has been introduced that would allow the vendor to retain all of the compensation without going through the Department of Fish and Game. He stressed that if this legislation is enacted Amendment 1 would be superseded. He observed that the Department would write the check to the nonprofit. He suggested that consistency with federal provisions be reviewed. Representative Brown asked if the amendment would add fiscal impact to the Department. Representative Mulder stated that he did not anticipate a fiscal note. He pointed out that the Department would still send the agent a check if it is not sent to a non-profit. Representative Brown pointed out that the funds could be portioned and assigned to more than one party. She suggested that the administrative cost come out of the vendors share. Representative Mulder WITHDREW Amendment 1. He noted his intention to offer the amendment on the House floor. Co- Chair Hanley suggested that the amendment take into consideration the possible enactment of other legislation. KEVIN DELANEY, DIRECTOR, DIVISION OF SPORT FISH, DEPARTMENT OF FISH AND GAME discussed Amendment 2, by the Department (copy on file). He noted that the amendment would be inserted on page 2, line 17. The amendment clarifies the type of information that would remain confidential. Records or reports that do not identify individual sport fishing operators or the specific locations where the fish have been taken are public information. Representative Brown suggested the language, "information, except aggregated data that do not identify individual 2 operators or guides." She questioned why "guides" are not identified. Mr. Delaney clarified that operators are responsible for supplying the information. Representative Mulder pointed out that operators are responsible for the guides. In response to comments by Representative Mulder, Mr. Delaney clarified that the information can be compiled during the season for collection at the end of the season. He added that the fiscal note could be reduced to five months of accounting work, and eight months for a fishery biologist II, for a total of $61.5 thousand dollars. Representative Mulder asked how in-season information demands in Southeast Alaska would be handled. Mr. Delaney noted that the Department is required to keep a running estimation of harvest of king salmon to comply with the harvest quota. Members were provided with Amendment 2A, 9-LS0664\U.6 (copy on file). Amendment 2A addresses the same issue as Amendment 2. GARY HULL, KENAI testified via the teleconference network. He suggested that individuals be required to have been in Alaska for three of the last five years to obtain an operator's license. He emphasized that this amendment would ensure local hire and knowledge of Alaskan fisheries. Representative Martin questioned the cost of insurance. Mr. Hull noted that he pays $1100 dollars for 6 months of liability for clients, property and himself. JOE HARDY, KENAI testified via the teleconference network. He spoke in support of the legislation. He agreed that qualification licenses should require that licensees live in Alaska for three of the last five years. He added that the licensee should also be at least 18 years of age. He stressed that a minimum of Alaskan expertise should be required. JEFF KING, KENAI testified via the teleconference network. He maintained that the Department of Fish and Game must be flexible and creative in regards to the collection of data provided by the legislation. Representative Martin asked if other states require log books. Mr. King did not know. He stressed that information in log books is not always accurate. Representative Mulder noted fears that data could be used 3 against guides and sport fisherman in justification for restrictions. Mr. King stressed that accurate information is important. He acknowledged that data can be used for political purposes. He expressed faith in the Department of Fish and Game. Representative Grussendorf observed that log books are used by trollers. He noted that the trollers have expressed support for the use of log books. He noted the need to keep information regarding harvest locations confidential. Mr. Delaney noted that the Department anticipates collecting information from operators. He stated that the addition of guide in Amendment 2A is not problematic. He expressed support for Amendment 2A. Representative Mulder MOVED to adopt Amendment 2A. In response to questions by Representatives Martin and Grussendorf, Co-Chair Hanley clarified that Amendment 2A would keep the specific location confidential. There being NO OBJECTION, it was so ordered. Representative Kelly MOVED to adopt Amendment 3, 9- LS0664\U.4 (copy on file). He explained that the amendment would recognize the value of game for other than consumptive use. He observed that there has been movement toward cutting resources for non-consumptive uses out of the Department of Fish and Game. He asserted that the amendment would assure that eco-tourism guides would be assure representation within the Department of Fish and Game budget. He maintained that the amendment will help identify eco-tourism guides and allow use decisions to be based on actual contributions in the area. He stated that the Alaska Outdoor Council is in support of the effort to get wilderness activity into the process of paying fees. Representative Kelly observed that a 1959 Alaska statute identified non-consumptive users as guides. He maintained that non-consumptive users should be included "at the table" and pay their own way. Amendment 3 would add outdoor wilderness activity guides to the list of guides required to obtain a license. He observed that activities conducted on a cruise ship or aircraft are exempted. The amendment also defines "outdoor wilderness" as off road activity. Representative Grussendorf noted that some operator guides may spend time in other outdoor activities with clients after fishing. Representative Kelly clarified that individuals that hold an operator or guide license are exempt under subsection (d). Representative Kelly noted that the intent is that 4 individuals only pay once. (Tape Change, HFC 96-122, Side 2) Representative Kelly stressed that fish and game operators would not need an additional wilderness license. Co-Chair Hanley thought that operations in the Wonder Lake area would need to be licenced since it is 30 miles off the state road system. Representative Kelly noted that it is not the intent of the amendment to require licenses for these operations. Co-Chair Hanley questioned if a pilot would be required to obtain a license if they drop individuals off at a wilderness lodge and accompany them to the lodge. He added that some white water operations are accessible from the road system and could be exempted. Representative Martin expressed concern with the cost of insurance for eco-tourism guides. Representative Kelly stressed that the State is funding non-consumptive uses. He maintained that non-consumptive uses should share in the expense. Representative Kelly clarified that wilderness guides would not supply data on resources to the State. He stressed the purpose of their inclusion is to assess the non-consumptive use of state resources for allocation purposes. He clarified that the amendment would require an operator's fee. Representative Austerman acknowledged the concerns addressed by Amendment 3, but noted that the issue has not been previously discussed in the context of HB 175. He expressed concern that Amendment 3 would interfere with the enactment of the legislation. Mr. Bruce stated that the Department of Fish and Game is actively seeking, with support from the Governor, alternative funding for non-consumptive programs. He noted that the Governor has endorsed the initiative being brought forth by the International Association of Fish and Wildlife at the national level to support wildlife diversity funding that would operate similar to the Federal Aid to Wildlife Restoration. This would result in greater revenues to the state of Alaska than Alaskans would pay as their portion of this national tax. He stressed that time is needed to generate a state proposal that will not be burdensome to the industry, but will collect the revenues needed to run the programs. Mr. Bruce pointed out that the amendment does not look at the body of users as a revenue source. He emphasized that 5 the users place the primary demand on the resource. He did not think the amendment would raise significant revenue. Mr. Bruce noted that HB 175 is primarily a data collection bill. It is not designed to pay for the operational cost of fish management programs in the State in general. It is designed to pay the cost of the collection of information provided by the guides. He pointed out that the main revenue generating mechanism for sport fish management is the individual user's license fee and federal funding. He emphasized the need to find a funding mechanism for non- consumptive uses that mirrors these broad based mechanisms. Representative Kelly stated that he does not support a tent tax. He maintained that hunters pay at a high level. He argued in support of Amendment 3. Representative Austerman reiterated that HB 175 is strictly geared toward sport fishing. He suggested that Amendment 3 be tied to other legislation. Representative Kelly WITHDREW Amendment 3. Representative Navarre did not offer Amendment 4, 9- LS0664\U.5 (copy on file). Amendment 4 would have required that guides hold an Alaska sport fishing license or be engaged in sport fishing in Alaska for three of the five years preceding the issuance of a license. He stated that there is some question if the amendment would create problems for ocean going guide services. Representative Mulder noted that there is a problem with non-residents that operate in Southeast Alaska without licenses. He suggested that Amendment 4 could be limited to 500,000 angler days. Representative Martin expressed concern that small operators will be adversely affected by insurance requirements. Representative Mulder suggested that respondents not be specifically named. He encouraged anonymous reporting. Representative Mulder MOVED to report CSHB 175 (FIN) out of Committee with individual recommendations and with the accompanying fiscal note. Representative Martin OBJECTED. A roll call vote was taken on the MOTION. IN FAVOR: Brown, Grussendorf, Navarre, Kelly, Kohring, Martin, Mulder, Therriault, Hanley OPPOSED: Martin Representatives Parnell and Foster were absent from the 6 vote. The MOTION PASSED (8-1). CSHB 175 (FIN) was reported out of Committee with "no recommendation" Department of Fish and Game. ADJOURNMENT The meeting adjourned at 9:30 a.m. 7