HOUSE SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AND TOURISM March 7, 2000 5:15 p.m. MEMBERS PRESENT Representative Ramona Barnes Representative Norman Rokeberg Representative Fred Dyson Representative Andrew Halcro Representative Sharon Cissna Representative Beth Kerttula MEMBERS ABSENT Representative Gail Phillips, Chair COMMITTEE CALENDAR HOUSE BILL NO. 384 "An Act establishing the Legislative Road Development Task Force; and providing for an effective date." - MOVED CSHB 384(EDT) OUT OF COMMITTEE PREVIOUS ACTION BILL: HB 384 SHORT TITLE: ROAD DEVELOPMENT TASK FORCE Jrn-Date Jrn-Page Action 2/16/00 2214 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS 2/16/00 2214 (H) EDT, TRA, FIN 2/16/00 2214 (H) REFERRED TO EDT WITNESS REGISTER ART GRISWOLD, Member Deltana Borough Steering Committee HC 60, Box 4493 Delta Junction, Alaska 99737 POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HB 384. AL ROIG SR Box 274 Copper Center, Alaska 99573 POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HB 384. JOHN WENGER Kenney Lake Farm Bureau HC 60, Box 280 Copper Center, Alaska 99573 POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HB 384. RUTH McHENRY Copper Country Alliance, HC 60, Box 306-T Copper Center, Alaska 99573 POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HB 384. THOMAS B. BRIGHAM, Director Division of Statewide Planning Department of Transportation and Public Facilities. 3132 Channel Drive Juneau, Alaska 99801-7898 POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HB 384. ACTION NARRATIVE TAPE 00-4, SIDE A Number 0001 ACTING CHAIR RAMONA BARNES called the House Special Committee on Economic Development and Tourism meeting to order at 5:15 p.m. Members present at the call to order were Representatives Barnes, Rokeberg, Halcro, Cissna and Kerttula. Representative Dyson arrived as the meeting was in progress. ACTING CHAIR BARNES explained that Chair Phillips was unable to be present because she was attending a meeting of the House Finance Committee. HB 384 - ROAD DEVELOPMENT TASK FORCE Number 0069 CHAIR BARNES announced the first item of business, House Bill No. 384, "An Act establishing the Legislative Road Development Task Force; and providing for an effective date." Number 0119 REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG moved to adopt the proposed committee substitute (CS) for HB 384, version 1-LS1452\G, Utermohle, 2/24/00, as the working document before the committee. There being no objection, it was so ordered. REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG, sponsor of HB 384, opened his presentation by declaring that the state has built almost no roads in the past 30 years, and the primary underpinning of any economic development in the State of Alaska is a good transportation system of roads, railroads, airports, ports, and related facilities. This is particularly important in rural areas. He referred to previous testimony by the mining industry concerning the need for opening access to known mineral deposits. REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG said HB 384 proposes establishment of a short-term [one-year] task force representing the legislature with representatives from throughout the state to look at the prior plans for road development and the existing research on them; identify those roads most important for the economic development of the state; check their feasibility; determine availability of funds to either develop or upgrade those roads; and then establish a priority ranking for the projects and work hand-in-hand with the Department of Transportation [and Public Facilities] to find the money and do some road-building. Number 0611 ART GRISWOLD, Member, Deltana Borough Steering Committee, testified by teleconference from Delta Junction. He said the Deltana Borough steering committee has a real interest in this bill because it mentions the proposed road to the Pogo Mine. However, he has questions concerning the membership of the task force. He stated, "The 302 is listed as part of the committee, but the Teamsters and Laborers were left out." ACTING CHAIR BARNES advised Mr. Griswold that he did not have the current work draft, which includes the International Union of Operating Engineers as well as the Teamsters Union Local 959. MR. GRISWOLD mentioned that the Associated General Contractors are included, but what he does not see is any representation from impacted areas except the appointments by the House and the Senate for the undeveloped and developed road areas. He wondered if one or two of the unions could be dropped out and more representation provided for people who live in the impacted areas. ACTING CHAIR BARNES apologized, again saying it was apparent that Mr. Griswold did not have the current work draft [Version G] of HB 384 before him. The work draft on page 2 refers to one public member jointly appointed by the president of the Senate and the speaker of the House of Representatives, and it goes on to say, "who resides in a rural area outside the area that is directly connected to Anchorage by road." REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG told Mr. Griswold that the committee had heard from the Pogo Mine developers that there seemed to be some resistance among local residents to the idea of a year-round road there, with perhaps somewhat less resistance to a winter road. He asked Mr. Griswold what type of relationship he has with the Pogo Mine people, and if he had any comments about that particular project. MR. GRISWOLD said the Deltana Borough Steering Committee is much in favor of a permanent road. One of their members had just returned from a trip to scout out alternative routes into the mine. The steering committee looks at that area for future development of the tax base for the borough. There are some people in the Good Pasture (ph) area who want their property to be maintained with access only by river or airplane. But the Deltana Borough Steering Committee is looking at the economic development of the borough, and hopes to see a permanent road and another whole community developing in the area where the mining and support facilities would be. Number 1034 AL ROIG of Copper Center testified by teleconference from Kenney Lake. He said he supports the formation of the task force. He hopes that all past studies on the roads will be made available to the task force. He cited the example of a road in progress for 40 years, the Copper River Highway. He said the state has done about 25 studies and that consultants and planners have made a lot of money, but the road is still where it was in 1960. The state has approximately $70 million invested in that highway and owns all of the right-of-way. The legislature has passed the law twice authorizing construction, and the law is still on the books. Number 1121 JOHN WENGER, Kenney Lake Farm Bureau, testified by teleconference from Kenney Lake. He said, "Let's go for it!" Number 1169 RUTH McHENRY, Copper Country Alliance, testified by teleconference from Kenney Lake. She said it looks as if HB 384 is proposing a solution before it defines a problem. There is no provision for the roadless area residents being consulted about what sort of developments they want. House Bill 384 doesn't look at solutions, other than roads, to development problems in those areas. The task force is heavily weighted toward the construction industry. There is only one person from a roadless area, even though those people are going to be most affected. She suggested that at least two people be appointed from the roadless areas, at least one of whom should be a tribal [representative]. She also suggested that there be an environmental representative. MS. McHENRY asked Representative Rokeberg why there would be a road to Tazlina Lake. REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG explained that the roads listed were road projects previously under consideration. The bill is endeavoring to look at projects considered in the past and to prioritize them. For example, if the task force found that there was little reason or support for a road to Tazlina Lake, that project could be given a very low priority or recommended for deletion from consideration. ACTING CHAIR BARNES said there is no preconceived idea as to what the affected communities might think about the roads listed. Some of the communities might not want to have a road at all, and she would expect that the task force would come back to the legislature with a recommendation that those areas that do not wish to have roads do not need to have them. Number 1430 REPRESENTATIVE HALCRO suggested that an environmental representative is not necessary because any road project that is decided upon and proceeds to the next step would have to go through an environmental impact statement (EIS), and at that point, representatives from the environmental community would participate in the process. MS. McHENRY said it would make sense to find out what the environmental community thinks and involve all stakeholders as [the task force proceeds] rather than waiting for an EIS, which is going to be expensive. ACTING CHAIR BARNES said she had never known of a committee hearing on roads or on anything else in which the environmental community has an interest where they were not present and testifying in full force. REPRESENTATIVE CISSNA said she thought Tom Brigham was in the audience, and asked if the committee might hear from him. Number 1594 THOMAS B. BRIGHAM, Director, Division of Statewide Planning, Department of Transportation and Public Facilities (DOT/PF) said that department has no position at this point on HB 384. He observed that the bill refers to a general list of roads that people have been considering for a long time. He pointed out that about half of the roads listed are being analyzed as part of DOT/PF regional transportation plans, and that DOT/PF would be happy to share its information on those. He specifically mentioned the Williamsport-Pile Bay Road, the Rock Creek Road in Nome, and the proposed road from Wasilla to Bethel, saying that there was some very interesting economic data available on those. He said DOT/PF would be delighted to work with the committee and the task force, and volunteered to be of support and to make all data available to them. Number 1779 Mr. Brigham said DOT/PF is approaching transportation in these regions from a multi-modal point of view, whereas HB 384 clearly suggests a pro-road or "roads leading to economic development" philosophy. By contrast, DOT/PF has taken the approach of, "how can transportation improvements benefit the economies and the residents of these regions." Transportation could mean roads, improved aviation, or improved marine transportation. The DOT/PF looks at these different options and their cost-effectiveness. Mr. Brigham added, "It's not an anti-road bias; it's not a pro- road bias. We are trying hard to steer right down the middle and say, what's going to make sense here from an economic perspective, what would really pay off." ACTING CHAIR BARNES said as she understands HB 384, if DOT/PF convinced the task force that certain areas should remain roadless, those propsed roads would either drop off the list or end up at the bottom of the list. Number 1895 MR. BRIGHAM gave an example of the agency's approach, citing the prospect of significant development of coal, minerals, and other resources in the northwest part of the state. Transportation has been a stumbling block to development of those resources, but building a road from Fairbanks may not be the best solution. A road from the Ambler district to a port may do the job much more cost effectively and meet the needs of the residents in that area. The agency starts by looking at what can be of maximum benefit to the state and can be realized cost-effectively. Number 2022 REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG asked him what other road had been built other than the one from Portage to Whittier. MR. BRIGHAM said the one built before that, in 1995-96, was the road to Kasaan, a village with no road connection. The project built new roadway that connected with a piece of Forest Service logging road to provide road access to Kasaan. The folks in that village were very thankful for it. REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG asked what had been built before that. MR. BRIGHAM said that was before his time at DOT/PF. ACTING CHAIR BARNES said there hasn't been any [other road construction]. REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG exclaimed, "I'm 57 years old and I've lived in this state since 1946, and I can't remember in the last three decades when a new road has been built in this state, and I'm losing patience!" ACTING CHAIR BARNES corrected her last statement, saying the only other road built was the Parks Highway from Wasilla to Fairbanks. MR. BRIGHAM mentioned the Dalton Highway. ACTING CHAIR BARNES said the oil companies built the Dalton Highway, and after some years, the state assumed control of it. It had not been proposed or built by the state. Number 2159 REPRESENTATIVE HALCRO asked when the Parks Highway had been built. MR. BRIGHAM said the final stretch that connected it all was completed in the early 1970s, although sections were built prior to that. He pointed out that many Forest Service roads built throughout Southeast Alaska now are being upgraded. ACTING CHAIR BARNES said those roads were not built by the state but by the logging companies. MR. BRIGHAM mentioned the U.S. Forest Service and some other road-building entities. Number 2211 REPRESENTATIVE CISSNA volunteered that the roads between Juneau and Anchorage are in horrible condition. ACTING CHAIR BARNES agreed, then added that she thinks it is the fault of the road builders. She said the roads are much better in Canada where the climate is similar to that in Alaska, and the problem lies in the way that Alaskan roads are built. She blamed that on the DOT/PF. Number 2307 REPRESENTATIVE KERTTULA asked what DOT/PF considers when it looks at [building] a road. MR. BRIGHAM said, in a nutshell, one looks at the benefits (including economic development) and the costs to the state. The costs are what it costs to build (which includes some funding from the federal government) and to maintain. He mentioned that the amount of money available from the state for maintenance has been decreasing. Number 2361 ACTING CHAIR BARNES asked him to clarify what he meant by maintenance. MR. BRIGHAM said basic maintenance includes plowing, sweeping, and pothole-fixing. He added, "When you tear up a big stretch of road and resurface it, that can be done with federal dollars." ACTING CHAIR BARNES said if DOT/PF did a better job of building roads, those roads would not need so much maintenance. MR. BRIGHAM said he was not the right person to ask about the specifics of road construction and maintenance. ACTING CHAIR BARNES continued, addressing permafrost and Canadian road-building standards. Number 2444 REPRESENTATIVE CISSNA asked what DOT/PF considers in weighing costs and benefits. MR. BRIGHAM said the agency tries to look at broad, general public benefits, such as linking communities in a way that people in that area support. There also is private or investment benefit that can benefit the public as well by creating jobs and supporting the state and local economies. He mentioned the Red Dog Road as an example of a road benefiting the local economy. ACTING CHAIR BARNES said the road from the Red Dog Mine to the port was not paid for by the state but by Cominco Ltd. and NANA Regional Corporation, Inc., through bonds that they've been paying back all these years. MR. BRIGHAM said that to him, the Red Dog was a wonderful win-win all the way around. The Alaska Development Association financed the road and sold bonds, and the mining operation is paying back that debt through operating revenues. The developers didn't have to front-end it. Number 2575 MR. BRIGHAM said that in the Northwest Plan, DOT/PF is looking at the prospect of a road in the Ambler district to interconnect the villages, access mineral development, and tie into a port. That is a case in which there is both broad public interest and some private economic interest that fits together, making it an excellent candidate for a public road. Number 2527 REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG asked if the state is able to use federal funding for gravel roads. MR. BRIGHAM said that has been possible since 1991-92, and that the state now can use federal funds to build very basic gravel roads. Prior to that time, roads built with federal money had to meet urban, primary road standards. REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG wanted to know why the state isn't doing more rural road-building with federal funds. MR. BRIGHAM said the road to Kasaan was an example of that. Most roads built in the Bush now are gravel roads, basic infrastructure linking a village to its airport, landfill or sewage lagoon. But the competition for the [federal] highway funds makes it hard to get those roads built. He gave the example of a road to Rampart on the Yukon River that has been talked about for years. Rampart is solidly behind the project. It would be a simple gravel or chip-sealed road, built to a secondary road standard, 18-20 miles long. It is on the needs list, but has not been funded because of competition from urban areas that want to upgrade highways. He mentioned that DOT/PF's current focus is on rebuilding a piece of the Glenn Highway each year, bringing it from 1950 to current road standards. Number 2894 REPRESENTATIVE KERTTULA referred to testimony she had heard from the Department of Environmental Conservation about basic infrastructure needed in the villages for health reasons. She said it may be a bigger problem than she had realized providing access to water and sewage facilities. MR. BRIGHAM said a typical project will come to DOT/PF from a village or borough accompanied by a village safe water project or a public health service project. He said the agency's Bush projects are almost all in direct support of some kind of public health or safety project. The agency does very little in the way of general village streets. The Bureau of Indian Affairs typically handles those projects. TAPE 00-4, SIDE B Number 2973 [Tape numbers decline] REPRESENTATIVE DYSON said many road problems are not related to the road surface, but have to do with drainage and adequate insulation underneath them, particularly when crossing ice-rich ground or permafrost. Number 2955 ACTING CHAIR BARNES summarized that the committee had adopted a work draft, had taken all of the public testimony, and had three amendments to address. REPRESENTATIVE HALCRO asked Mr. Brigham which of the 18 road projects listed in HB 384 have been formally studied. MR. BRIGHAM said DOT/PF is working on nine of them now: projects numbered 1, 3, 5, 8, 9, 13, 14, and 15. In addition, number 16 "is in the regular program." The other roads are in areas outside the boundaries of the current regional transportation plans. Number 2854 ACTING CHAIR BARNES introduced Amendment 1, on page 3, line 12: to delete "Delta" and insert "Richardson Highway"; to insert a new subsection (19), "a road from Ruby to Takotna; and," and to insert a new subsection (20), "a road from Takotna to Crooked Creek." REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG moved adoption of Amendment 1 and asked unanimous consent. There being no objection, it was so ordered. Number 2820 ACTING CHAIR BARNES introduced Amendment 2, regarding task force membership, on page 2, line 3: following subsection (7), to delete "two public members jointly appointed by the president of the Senate and the speaker of the House of Representatives," and to insert a new subsection (7), "one member designated by the Alaska Miners Association and one member jointly appointed by the president of the Senate and the speaker of the House of Representatives". REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG moved adoption of Amendment 2. REPRESENTATIVE CISSNA objected and asked for clarification. Number 2700 REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG said he had brought the amendment before the committee to improve the breadth of representation by directly involving the Alaska Miners Association and the Native community. He wanted to keep the task force at the same size [11 members] by deleting the two public members. REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG said he thought the amendment had not been drafted exactly as he had intended. He made a motion to amend Amendment 2, replacing the remaining public member with a person appointed by the Alaska Federation of Natives. There being no objection, it was so ordered. REPRESENTATIVE CISSNA asked for clarification regarding the action just taken. REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG explained that the two public members had been replaced by representatives of the Alaska Miners Association and the Alaska Federation of Natives. He added that the task force still included the public member from a rural area. [Additional clarifying discussion followed, involving Acting Chair Barnes, Representative Rokeberg and Representative Cissna.] Number 2591 REPRESENTATIVE CISSNA said she objected to including the Alaska Miners Association, which has a very specific interest, and asked Representative Rokeberg if this was really a road task force or a transportation task force. She said she could see some real value in having a transportation task force. Number 2420 Upon a roll call vote, Representatives Dyson, Halcro, Cissna, Kerttula, Barnes, and Rokeberg voted in favor of Amendment 2. Therefore, Amendment 2 passed. ACTING CHAIR BARNES announced consideration of Amendment 3. Number 2470 REPRESENTATIVE CISSNA moved Amendment 3: on page 1, to delete line 9, "(1) One member designated by the Alaska Association, Inc." Number 2372 REPRESENTATIVE CISSNA then moved an amendment to Amendment 3: deleting "two members appointed by the president of the Alaska Federation of Natives." There being no objection, it was so ordered. REPRESENTATIVE CISSNA then moved a second amendment to Amendment 3: on page 2, following line 7, adding one member of an Alaska environmental organization appointed by the governor; on page 2, lines 12-14, rewording subsection (b) to add the Department of Environmental Conservation to the nonvoting members of the task force; and on page 3, line 15, bringing the total number of members from nine to eleven. She said she was doing this because fairness and a balance of representation are extremely important. Number 2113 ACTING CHAIR BARNES asked if there were objections to the amendment. REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG objected. REPRESENTATIVE KERTTULA commented that having the environmental input "up-front" and including that group at the table is going to make the process a whole lot easier in the long run. Number 2076 REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG asked that the record show his opinion, as the sponsor of HB 384, that the environmental community should not be included the membership of the task force, because he believes the environmental community has for the past 30 years in Alaska endeavored to stop any economic development, and "the whole purpose of this commission is to build roads." REPRESENTATIVE CISSNA said conservationists have worked with development projects in logging, oil and other industries. "Obstructionist" is not a fair characterization. The development of Alaska so that it meets the most needs and actually pays for itself is terribly important. She said the reason she objects to the truckers being included is that it might not be best to put in a road, but rather an airport or a railroad. Number 1856 REPRESENTATIVE HALCRO objected, citing two reasons. First, the people who know the highways best are the men and women of the Alaska Trucking Association, Inc. If there is to be a road development task force, there would be nothing better than to have a representative from those who move the goods around Alaska to give input on possible transportation corridors. Second, in opposition to the environmental member, he thinks environmental input is good, but DOT/PF is already looking at these roads, so there already is input. This is a road development task force; it's really not a transportation development task force. Number 1730 ACTING CHAIR BARNES declared that the question before the committee is Amendment 3. Upon a roll call vote, Representatives Cissna and Kerttula voted in favor of Amendment 3, and Representatives Halcro, Barnes, Rokeberg, and Dyson voted against. Therefore, Amendment 3 failed by a vote of 2-4. Number 1716 REPRESENTATIVE DYSON made a motion to move out of committee the CS for HB 384, Version G [1-LS1452\G, Utermohle, 2/24/00], as amended, with individual recommendations and accompanying fiscal notes. There being no objection, CSHB 384(EDT) was moved out of the House Special Committee on Economic Development and Tourism. ADJOURNMENT There being no further business before the committee, the House Special Committee on Economic Development and Tourism meeting was adjourned at 6:30 p.m.